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Monday, 21 April 2008

The Death of Mary Rizzo's 'PeacePalestine' Sewer



It is gratifying to announce that the anti-Semitic sewer, going by the name of 'PeacePalestine' has now died a death. After I had it taken down for a day or so, because of its libellous comment, Google decided in any case it was a 'spam' blog. Who are we to disagree?!!!


Naturally the last article on it was dedicated to the lying assertion that 'Anti-Zionist = Zionist (if you are Tony Greenstein!)'. In fact it is only anti-Semites who believe that all Jews are Zionists and therefore even anti-Zionists Jews are still Zionists.


Ironically the last article, picking up in her usual dishonest way, on a discussion on the Alef (Academic Left list hosted by Haifa University) where I stated that the creation of a Palestinian nation was ironically the outcome of Zionist colonisation, was proof that I was a Zionist!


According to Rizzo: 'The Palestinians were a people since the time they inhabited that land'. But the mere fact that people occupy a land doesn't make them a people or nation. Until recent times the Palestinians were no more a people, nor did they see themselves as such, than the ancient Hebrew, Jebusite, Canaanite and many other tribes and clans. It was Zionism which welded the indigenous population of Mandatory Palestine into a nation.


On this basis Rizzo tricked one Ismail Zayid, who has subsequently accepted that I was misinterpreted, into arguing in an article below Rizzo's that 'The Arab population of Palestine was native in all the senses of the word and their roots in Palestine can be traced back at least forty centuries." Of course I never argued that this was not the case. Not only can the Arab population of Palestine be traced back centuries, but it is highly likely that it is today's Palestinians who are the descendants of the Jews who converted to Christianity, whereas the Israeli Jews of today are no more than European settlers who have no more connection with ancient Palestine than the Norsemen.


It is therefore highly ironic that Rizzo's new blog, on Word Press, carries an article suggesting that.... the Palestinians aren't a nation!!! By Adib S. Kawar it is entitled 'Palestine is not a nation, Palestinians are part of the Arab Nation'. So who are the Zionists now?!!!


Tony Greenstein

104 comments:

joe90 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
joe90 said...

Of course, if you read atzmon
and as much as one is able to work out what it is he's saying, you'll be aware that he's saying something that is completely the opposite to what rizzo is saying, viz -

For a Palestinian in the occupied territories, the right for self-determination means very little. He doesn’t need to self-determine himself as a Palestinian for the obvious reason that he knows who he is....For the Palestinian, self-determination is a product of negation. It is actually the daily confrontation with the Zionist denial of the Palestinian right of self-determination.
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/03/the-right-to-self-determination-a-fake-exercise-in-universalism/

Quote comes the third paragraph in the second section.

This is the usual helping of atzmon's alphabet soup but he seems to be saying that if it wasn't for zionism then Palestinian identity would exist, or something.

Anonymous said...

Fancy that!

A U-turn worthy of teh pages of Private Eye!

Tony Greenstein said...

Ah yes, Atzmon's 'The Right to Self-Determination - A Fake Exercise in Universalism'. Some people hide their ignorance, Atzmon believes in parading it for all to see. Apparently

'all post-emancipated Jewish political, spiritual and social schools of thought, left, right and centre were inherently concerned with issues to do with the ‘right to self-determination’. The Zionists would demand the right to national self-determination in the land of Zion. The Bund would demand national and cultural self-determination within the East European proletarian discourse. Matzpen and the ultra Israeli leftists would demand the right to self-determination for the ‘Israeli Jewish nation’ in the ‘liberated Arab East’, Anti Zionist Jews would insist upon the right to engage in an esoteric Jewish discourse within the Palestinian solidarity movement.'

In fact the Zionists didn't demand the right to self-determination but the right to colonise Palestine - a slightly different matter. Matzpen posited a solution of an Israeli Jewish entity within an overall Middle East Federation. I disagree with it but there is nothing exclusivist about it. Atzmon knows even less about the Bund who didn't demand the right to national self-determination but cultural autonomy.

And then the idiot witters that:

'the right to self-determination can be celebrated only by the privileged who can mobilize enough political power or military might to make this right into a practical reality.... it must be mentioned that even within the Western liberal discourse, it is only Jews who premise their political power on the ‘right to be like others’. The reason is simple, though liberated Jews insist upon being ‘like others’, it is rather clear that others prefer actually to be ‘like themselves’.'

If the fool could only take a step back he might wonder what the fight of Black South Africans or indeed any subject people is, other than the right to self-determination, which means nothing more than the right to be free of national oppression. Yes Jews sought emancipation, i.e. the same rights as everyone else, which I guess is what riles Atzmon.

Atzmon doesn't understand that rebellion (not the right to rebel) is aimed precisely at social and national liberation.

'It must be mentioned also that within oppressed societies, the right to self-determination is often replaced with the right to rebel.'

Yes it's interesting that Rizzo has nothing to say on this (or much else!). But for Atzmon, who loves playing with words and terms he doesn't understand, self-determination is a collective phenomenon, not individual. Knowing who you are doesn't contradict the fact that you are not allowed to express that fact in any meaningful way.

'For a Palestinian in the occupied territories, the right for self-determination means very little. He doesn’t need to self-determine himself as a Palestinian for the obvious reason that he knows who he is.'... For the Palestinian, self-determination is a product of negation. It is actually the daily confrontation with the Zionist denial of the Palestinian right of self-determination.'

And naturally the 'right to self-determination' is just a Jewish tribal plot to undermine everyone else!

'…As much as the right to self-determination is occasionally presented has a ‘universal value’, scrutinising the pragmatic sinister utilization of the very right within the Jewish political discourse reveals that in practical terms, it is there to serve the Jewish tribal interests while denying and even dismissing other people’s elementary rights.'

The Bund may have been wrong, but certainly not for the reasons Atzmon divines. The Jews, who constituted 50% of the arrests of revolutionaries, suffered specific oppression, viz. pogroms at the hands of the Black Hundreds. Of course they had to organise separately as the most backward workers also took part on occasions. Lenin believed, whether rightly or wrongly, that the Bund demand weakened the overall fight against Czarist oppression. But Lenin and the Bolsheviks took anti-Semitism very seriously and didn't hesitate to shoot the likes of Gilad Atzmon!

He also doesn't understand that the right to self-determination isn't counterposed to any narrow bigoted nationalism. The Bolsheviks supported the right but also campaigned against it being exercised!

'Probably, the first to elaborate on the absurdity in Jewish demand for self-determination was Lenin in his famous attack on the Bund at the Second Congress of the R.S.D.L.P. (1903). “March with us” was Lenin’s reply to the Bund, rejecting their demand for a special autonomous ethnic status amongst the Russian workers. Lenin obviously spotted the tribally divisive agenda within the Bund philosophy. “We reject,” said Lenin, “all obligatory partitions that serve to divide us”. As much as Lenin supported “the right of nations to self-determination”, he was clearly dismissive of such a Jewish right which he correctly identified as divisive and reactionary. Lenin supported the right of oppressed nations to build their national entities, however he resisted any bigoted, narrow nationalist spirit.

As even Atzmon has to concede, after muddying everything else, the Bund's demand was not a territorial one and therefore all of his article is just so much anti-Semitic nonsense.

Tony

'Lenin raised three main reasons against the Bund and its demand of cultural self-determination:
First. Raising the slogan of cultural-national autonomy leads to splitting the nations apart, and therefore destroying the unity of the proletariat within them.
Second. Lenin saw that the intermingling of nations and their amalgamation was a progressive step, while turning away from that is a step backwards. He criticized those who “cry out to heaven against assimilation.”
Third. Lenin did not regard the ‘non-territorial cultural independence’ advocated by the Bund and the other Jewish parties as advantageous, practical, or practicable.
Lenin’s approach to the Bund is rather significant and should be reflected upon. Using his sharp political common sense, Lenin doubted the ethical and political grounds of the right of Jews to self-determination, as much as the Bund demanded that Jews should be treated as a national identity like all other nationals. Lenin’s answer was strictly simple: “Sorry guys, but you aren’t. You are not a national minority just for the reason that you are not attached to a piece of geography.”

Fartypants said...

So it ain't dead, then. Just moved house to Wordpress.

You have a funny idea of what is dead and what is alive. Moving hosts is not generally equated with death.

And its pretty stupid to crow over some American IT multinational censoring a blog. Don't kid yourself it's because it is 'anti-semitic'. More likely because it is pro-Palestinian. Yours could just as easily be next.

This crowing over censorship by the US bourgeoisie gives credibility to charges that Greenstein is in some way a Zionist. Charges that seem preposterous on the face of it.

But Google is certainly influenced by Zionism and AIPAC type people. Pro-Zionist, anti-Muslim reaction is the mainstream. Allying with it is playing with fire.

"First they came for Mary Rizzo. Later, they came for Tony Greenstein. And then....?"

Tony Greenstein said...

Well the old blog is dead. Indeed I was going to say that the new blog doesn't seem to be overloaded with Atzmon (yet anyway!).

But I'll let fartypants into what I think is the story and it's not one of censorship. I wrote to Google not so long ago saying that there was stuff that was personally libellous and yes they should take the whole of the cesspit down. However they decided not to and Rizzo was the one who crowed over that.

Now she has moved the blog anyway because it was deemed a 'spam' blog. The secret is that this blog was also blocked for the same reasons. What that meant was that nothing could be posted here for a day or two. It was an automatic process triggered by the software Google use, nothing to do with censorship. Clearly Rizzo had had enough and maybe wanted to put the past, including all the racist rubbish behind her (here's hoping) and make a fresh start. let's hope so.

I don't know whether Google is particularly pro-Zionist, after all when I tried to get the blog taken down they refused. However I'm indifferent as to whether or not they take an anti-Semitic blog down because it's libellous.

That is why Pastor Niemoller's saying about 'first they came for....' is inappropriate. She is no victim since the blog's primary purpose these days is to attack Jewish anti-Zionists. It is no accident that the last article left up is an attack on me for being a Zionist (i.e. Jewish).

To be blunt I couldn't care less if one section of the Right censors another section. I regard Rizzo's blog and the activities of those like Atzmon around it as doing nothing but a service for Zionism. It is no accident that when it comes to the historica division in diaspora Jewry between the anti-Zionist Bund and the Zionists, that Atzmon clearly and explicitly takes the side of the latter. If this is pro-Palestinian then fine.

Anonymous said...

Rizzo will never recant her racism and her racist ties. Her sins are vanity and pride, which leave no room for volte face.

Poisoning the PSM well with anti-Semitism only benefits Zionism as right-minded people are naturally repulsed by racism.

joe90 said...

Atzmon's 'Self-determination' post-modern playing with words gibberish article is a real collector's classic of neo-nazi memorabilia I think. It opens with atzmon humiliating a Jew in public! Classic stuff. Neo-nazis will be loving every word of it.


I'm reading Tom Segev's 'One Palestine' at the moment - and I thought this worth quoting.
It is about a prominent Arab Palestinian in 1919 -
"...Sakakini agonised over his identity. "I am not a Christian nor a Buddhist," he wrote, "neither a Muslim nor a Jew. Just as I am not Arab or English, nor French nor German nor Turkish. I am just one member of the human race." He had calling cards prined that read "Khalil al Sakakkini-human being, God willing."
Sometimes, however, Sakakini was inclined to define himself first and foremost as an Arab, and believed it was his duty to work for the rebirth of this "miserable nation." Their interest, he wrote, "is to be a single people to be eductaed in a single culture and to a single way and to hope a single hope",; he added that this was not an impossoble mission for a true patriot. "We have a palce,we have a language, we have a culture," he explained. "Independence! Independence!" he wrote in his diary. He was among the founding fathers of Arab national consciousness in Palestine, one of the first activists in the joint Muslim-Christian literary clubs that served as the nucleus of the Arab national movement.
('One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs under the British Mandate' 2000, page 103)

An Arab thinking himself cosmopolitan and also not sure if he is actually Palestinians or what Palestine is. Rizzo and atzmon won't be pleased.
At this period the 'capital' was always thought of as Damascus, not Jerusalem.

As I understand it,
the Tsarist Empire's antisemitism was a great mobilising force against it amongst its many internal enemies - Lenin and the lads got pretty hot whenever Tsarist antisemitism was mentioned or debated.

It was one of the reason's Trotsky gave, in his brilliant courtroom defence, in 1905 against the charge that he and his fellow defendents were not insurrectionists - the fact that they were defending ordinary Russians against the Tsarist state and its Police who organised massacres of its own citizens ie pogroms.

Trotsky, of course, was highly Jewish.

The Bund and its representatives were warmly received amongst the Social Democratic Party even though Lenin and the boys rejected their claims for special status. Doing some of the rejecting, were Jewish members prominent amongst the Social Democratic Party.

thecutter said...

Funny, left a comment here and it didn't show... More of your "there are no censors, there are no gatekeepers" schtick?

Hey, I wouldn't be so proudly shouting that you are busy trying to close down sites that are considered to be the most popular Palestinian blogs and very much appreciated and reprinted all over the web. It appears that you think it is a "good thing"... more of your own personal issues taking precedence over all else, as if you are the sun?

As a matter of fact, your incredible jealousy of the fact that hundreds of people wanted to tell you to knock it off and to show their support of Gilad and I is getting quite pathological. I would tone it down if I were you. It makes you look shabby.

And, if we are talking "libel" here, Tony... You posted and insist that I have forged signatories (sic), which you know is untrue. As a matter of fact, even despite the harassment by you and Shraga, Ellen is still translating Gilad into German, Hajo is writing nice letters to us wanting to stay in contact and be involved in our projects and saying that Shraga has totally lost touch with reality by calling him an Anti-Semite, so it is evident that neither of you know the meaning of the smear. As to the rest of this ridiculous post, you did not fool anyone with your "you don't understand history" crap. Your statement is taken exactly for what it is, Zio-centric thinking and the entire Palestinian blogosphere that is on to you thinks you are anathema. As another matter of fact, more people have asked to sign both petitions, so whatever you are bragging about is quite ridiculous and only reflects badly upon you. You of course wanted the site off where the comments by the webmasters of DV, UICC, TPV, Uruknet, AMIN, Redress, Mid East OnLine, Palestine Chronicle, Al-Awda, Friends of Lebanon and 60 other Palestinian blogs and sites called you "wicked" and worse. This is what it's all about, nothing else.

Oh, and if you are glad to help corporate media to silence Pro-Palestinian sites, hats off to you being ever more blunt about it. The cat is out of the bag and has been for a long time. Like I said before, dedicate some time to helping Palestinians rather than obsessing on Gilad and me.

joe90 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
joe90 said...

..close down sites that are considered to be the most popular Palestinian blogs...
...and destroying Gilad, don't forget.

Zio-centric thinking..
- a real giladism if there ever was one.

This is from someoe who doesn't have the faintest idea where Palestine and Palestinian nationalism comes from.

As I said, Mary just copies her detractors, viz -
More of your "there are no censors, there are no gatekeepers"
and
...dedicate some time to helping Palestinians rather than obsessing on Gilad and me.

Mary's comment is taken up with her obsession about how popular she is - no hint of irony, so she must be serious about her own importance even though she is an antisemite and doesn't know anything much about Palestine and its history!

Did you tell all your fans that the victims of the Nazis had it coming to them - and did you tell them that you grossly mis-represent what people say about Palestinian-Israeli history because you don't know anything much about it yourself Mary?

Anyway Mary, as you claim to care so much about Palestinians despite the fact you know nothing much about them, could you answer this question I've been asking for some time -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

For the above question, see last comment in this thread which, I'm sure, Mary the gatekeeper of Palestinian history hasn't told any of her fan-club about such is her dedication to truth and knowledge -
Atzmon & Rizzo's Petition - Signatories are Forged
19 Mar 2008

Tony Greenstein said...

Well I certainly didn't delete anything since I've only just got in from winning an employment tribunal!

"Funny, left a comment here and it didn't show... More of your "there are no censors, there are no gatekeepers" schtick?"

But Rizzo's blog ain't Palestinian, but rides on the backs of Palestinians and uses their defeats in order to spread its racist poison.

"Hey, I wouldn't be so proudly shouting that you are busy trying to close down sites that are considered to be the most popular Palestinian blogs and very much appreciated and reprinted all over the web. It appears that you think it is a "good thing"... more of your own personal issues taking precedence over all else, as if you are the sun?"

Ok Mary, I'm jealous of the fact that a bunch of assorted racists, neo-Nazi loons like The Radical Press & Eisen, a few misguided souls and other oddballs, have signed your petition. Happy now? I'm really jealous of the fact that you insist on making a fool of yourself by campaigning for solidarity with yours and Gilad's 'outstanding personality'.

"As a matter of fact, your incredible jealousy of the fact that hundreds of people wanted to tell you to knock it off and to show their support of Gilad and I is getting quite pathological...."

Forge, fool, deceive, it's all much the same isn't it? Libellous? Hardly but you're welcome to try!

"And, if we are talking "libel" here, Tony... You posted and insist that I have forged signatories (sic), which you know is untrue."

Ellen might be translating stuff for you but she denies supporting the petition! As for Hajo, he denied it once and who am I to disbelieve him?

"As a matter of fact, even despite the harassment by you and Shraga, Ellen is still translating Gilad into German, Hajo is writing nice letters to us wanting to stay in contact and be involved in our projects..."

Yes I want all racist, anti-Semitic and fascist sites off. If there are some who don't understand that, well too bad. If there any Palestinians who believe that anti-Semitism is the way forward then that is a sign of how defeat takes its toll. But I'm happy to give credit to e.g. Hamas when it starts making the connections between its own struggle and that of the Warsaw Ghetto. Much to the chagrin of Zionists (inc. yourself and Atzmon).

"You of course wanted the site off where the comments by the webmasters of DV, UICC, TPV, Uruknet, AMIN, Redress, Mid East OnLine, Palestine Chronicle, Al-Awda, Friends of Lebanon and 60 other Palestinian blogs and sites called you "wicked" and worse."

Ah yes. I'm a helper of the corporate media!! It wasn't so long ago that you were drooling about how wonderful Google was in putting you back on air. Make up your mind. It's me wot threatened to sue the corporate media and in fact did sue The Times.

But if Google wants to take down an overtly racist site I'm really not going to complain, even if ut pretends it supports the Palestinians.

"Oh, and if you are glad to help corporate media to silence Pro-Palestinian sites, hats off to you being ever more blunt about it."

I think I've done more in one week Ms Rizzo of consequence than you'll have done in your lifetime when it comes to supporting the Palestinian struggle. And stop using the Palestinians to try and get a respite from my criticism of you & Gilad. It's so transparent Mary.

"The cat is out of the bag and has been for a long time. Like I said before, dedicate some time to helping Palestinians rather than obsessing on Gilad and me."

filippo said...

Has Tony ever tried to shut down the racist Settlers blogs or Zionist sites? I suppose they are just fine with him. This says more than enough about where his real enemies are located.

In the meantime, Uruknet has publicized this one, http://uruknet.de/?p=m43347&hd=&size=1&l=e

thecutter said...

Ellen might be translating stuff for you but she denies supporting the petition! As for Hajo, he denied it once and who am I to disbelieve him?

Face it Tony, it's a lie!
Ellen isn't translating anything "for me"! She translates Gush Shalom and anything else she likes, and funny... she's translating all of Gilad's recent papers, even after being harassed by you lot! She said she supported us but didn't want the threats Shraga was making. Oh, didn't you see the latest? Hajo wrote that he supported every single word on the petition and no one duped him into signing a damned thing!

You live on lies, Tony. This is the fact. It is no secret that everything negative about you on my blog are YOUR OWN QUOTES. I don't have to make anything up. It's all you saying that the Palestinians are not a people. It is you who places people into racial categories, and it is you who smears and calls names to anyone who does not agree with you. This is something you are going to have to live with, because it's all there, written by you.

Yes, Tony, I did admire Blogger for not being duped by you, but then again, the strength of the Zionist campaigners is always much more than one is aware of. They always have a plan B. Why do you think they did this to Desert Peace (who also calls you a Zionist) and me? You are safe as milk, Tony, since you are a blog that protects Jewish interests (the figleaf category is yours) that will keep Israel safe forever.

As to not knowing history, Joe, get a new one, this one is tired, as it is indeed ridiculous for anyone to keep trying to point out that there was Anti-jewish sentiment in Europe during the 30s and 40s. Why the hell else were there extermination and concentration and labour camps?

This blog has been publicised on mine, what are you on about? Oh, now you will lie and say I've banned you!

Auschwitz Redcoat said...

Nice to see Mary is proudly wearing her racist heart on her sleeve with her alter ego & parody of this site.

http://azvas.blogspot.com/

We going to see you in blackface doing 'jigaboo' routines next? Or is it just the Jews you mock through negative racial stereotypes?

You're doing your mentor David Duke proud. You are doing Zionism even prouder!

peacepalestine said...

It's not my site.

It's another proud Jew who hates the same people you hate.

Going to try to block her site too?

Face it, Tony, people are laughing at you and all the lies you cook up won't save you.

peacepalestine said...

http://jewdas.org/contents.htm
quick, you better attack them fast... all those articles about shagging Jewish boys, about making the most of Jewish stereotypes, etc...

Why the double standards? Is it because they mainly insult Rabbis?

Auschwitz Redcoat said...

Oh, I see. It's not *your* racist site... uh-huh! You just make a virtue out of promoting racism from your blog and contribute to the racist site uncritically?

Is that the version of events you would prefer to have us believe then?

Wow, you come up positively smelling of roses all of a sudden, don't you!


What do we call someone that promotes racist sites and contributes to them positively?

peacepalestine said...

No nameless dude, it's not my site. Want to try to demonstrate that it is? Anyway, why is that one racist and Jewdass apparently "not"? Aren't they both the same little ghetto mentality without the pretense of supporting the Palestinian people like this joke of a site is?

Why do you defend Tony even when he lies? So far, we have at least two posts that are nothing but fabrication about my blog.

What's he going to do on 8 May when THE BIG SITE is going to be launched? Is he going to have the IDF come in and bulldoze all the computers of the contributors?

And, what is it about all of you who claim to know what is racist and what isn't? Why are you never attacking Settler or Zionist blogs? What is it about them that is so attractive to you? They don't seem to offend your sensitivities that much. Wonder why!?

Auschwitz Redcoat said...

Like I said, it's pretty much irrelevant whether the racist site is yours or not. You promote, endorse and contribute to it.


Lies? This place seems pretty well sourced.

Ah, back to the popularity contest tack now...

Why do I not attack Zio-sites? Well, mainly because they aren't pretending to be anything other than a racist sewage outlet.

I find them plenty offensive. But they hang their credentials clearly on the wall.

You however are a Trojan horse of racism into the PSM movement.

You sell racism in the name of Palestine. You pass of racial stereotypes and holocaust denial as the defense of Palestine.

THAT is far more worrying. Since Zionism has more to gain from the likes for you than www.godschosencuckoos.il when it comes to hurting support for their victims.

peacepalestine said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

A Zionist Conspiracy to Wreck Wikipedia!

http://azvas.blogspot.com/2008/04/zionist-conspiracy-to-wreck-wikipedia.html

The Auntie Simones call it "conspiracy" but we call it a proper plan!!!

joe90 said...

Mary says -
Zio-centric thinking
This is Mary Rizzo's (of antisemitic 'pissonpalestine' blog infamy) attempt at antisemitic gatekeeping.

Remember Mary's previous attempt to prove Tony Greenstein was a zionist, by producing an email where Tony claims zionism has affected Palestinian nationalism (in the comments thread I've already metioned above in my last comment).

It spectacularly backfired on Mary when she revealed she hasn't a clue about an extremely important period in the history of Palestine and the Levant in general.

As we all know, however, evidence facts and reality mean nothing to racists like Mary if they their little racist conspiracy theories.

So evidence-free, fact-free (mind-free!) Mary continues to call Tony Greenstein some kind of zionist - the only 'evidence' presumably being his Jewishness (I can hear the screams from here of the atzmonites, at the mere mention of that smacks of 'Jewishness').

peacepalestine said...

Joe, maybe you don't know the difference between a Zionist and a Jew? I do. Tony would still call me a Jew even though I am atheist, just as he is. He might not do the same to a Catholic, but Catholics are "different..." they are not Jews. He would call my Mum a Jew even though she converted a few years ago. She herself knows that when you convert, you are not a Jew, you are what you convert to! She doesn't need anyone else's identity or birth to say what she believes or who she is. She is an Eastern European woman who lives in North America as an American and she believes in the Catholic Church as the "true religion". My mother is not some liberated Marxist as Tony claims, but she is certainly more internationalist and humanist than Greenstein. Tony is convinced Atzmon converted (horrors! but never proved it). He because to him, to you, it's ethnic and blood-bound. But That is up to you to do so, not me. I don't play that game. You see, this is the core of Zionism. You are a Jew no matter what you think. It is a blood condition, which is what Hitler thought, which is what real anti-racists fight against. You seem to think Jewishness is something special? It's nothing special just as no other belief system is something special. It is a system people choose to adopt or reject. Try to argue that.

And spectacularly backfired, "what"? That you don't know or care about the right of existence that prescinds all other claims to the land in which the Palestinians have always lived, because they alone have this total natural right. If Israelis want to recognise that and live as immigrants in Palestine with equal rights, and if the Palestinians accept this, what is the problem. That is where people have to look, at the problem in not accepting the natural fact that only Palestinians have a true right to that place as their homeland, and that Return for them must be implemented if there is to be any peace. more stuff for you to warp here, have a field day!

Tony Greenstein said...

Filipo asks if I've every considered shutting down racist or settler sites. I was seriously considering trying to have Engage shut down for a libellous comment concerning myself but by the time I got round to doing something the comment had been deleted. Also it is hosted in the USA!

However this argument is much like the Zionist one of 'why do you pick on Israel when there are many more ghastly regimes'. It's no surprise that Mary's little helper resorts to Zionist stratagems but my answer is that people know exactly what settler or Zionist sites stand for. Rizzo's blog is more dangerous in that people believe it supports the Palestinians whereas it is the best thing that the Zionists could wish for.

But if we deal with the organ grinder not the monkey, i.e Ms Rizzo, she tells us that 'I don't have to make anything up.'

Having done that she goes on to say 'It's all you saying that the Palestinians are not a people.'

Uuh? I said that Palestinian nationhood was formed as a result of Zionist colonisation, not that they weren't a people today. Talk about making things up.

Then the fool tells us that 'It is you who places people into racial categories' before going on to say that 'You are safe as milk, Tony, since you are a blog that protects Jewish interests'.

Jewish interests. now what are they? Do all Jewish people have the same interests? If so then that is precisely the racial categorisation I have criticised. The problem with these idiots is that they don't even understand their own words.


Oh and I've never visited the Jewdas site. Unlike Mary I don't have time to spend on the net all day. But I'm aware of them. They are a satirical kind of group and if they attack rabbis all the better! BUT they are not anti-Semitic. Rizzo and friends are and that is the difference.

I have deleted Mary's comment calling me a 'little Hitler' and if she continues to be offensive then I will continue to delete. I've left all her other stuff up though I'm not having Sara Gillespie on this blog.

Mary obviously doesn't understand the difference between people and 'a people' or nation. The Palestinians have always been people, like anyone else, for as long as they lived but THEY THEMSELVES did not define themselves as such until colonialism forced them to. Just as the Indians weren't a nation until British imperialism invaded and unified the Mughal Empire and the various principalities. Unfortunately Mary is, well, one sandwich short of a loaf and is unable to understand this.

Mary thinks I'll call her Jewish because her mum is jewish. Wrong Mary. I have never called you Jewish. if you don't see yourself as a Jew then who am I to define you differently? It may be that you have a hang up about this but it's not my concern. I am not into the Zionist thing of defining others. I'll leave it to each individual to supply their own definition. My reasons for saying I am Jewish are because of anti-Semites like Rizzo and fascists as well as Zionists who attack Palestinians in the name of all Jews. It is simple really.

Yes Jews are much like Catholics. There is a certain political attachment but in essence it is a religion that has been nationalised or Zionised but nonetheless I make a sharp distinction between being Jewish and Zionist. Likewise I would never attribute to Catholics the nonsense idea that they are a people or nation. mary really needs to get into gear regarding these debates, which are quite old. Abandon all your anti-Semitic and racist crap and start doing a bit of analysis.

Despite all the reams of rubbish that Atzmon writes about Jewish identity, all of which are meaningless and NEVER form part of any debate outside his own circles, when someone like Mike Marquesee comes along and writes a book about jewish identity 'Journey of an anti-Zionist jew' people sit up and take notice.

Pity that Rizzo's mob are so inarticulate, but then that's what happens to racists.

Tony Greenstein said...

Filipo asks if I've every considered shutting down racist or settler sites. I was seriously considering trying to have Engage shut down for a libellous comment concerning myself but by the time I got round to doing something the comment had been deleted. Also it is hosted in the USA!

However this argument is much like the Zionist one of 'why do you pick on Israel when there are many more ghastly regimes'. It's no surprise that Mary's little helper resorts to Zionist stratagems but my answer is that people know exactly what settler or Zionist sites stand for. Rizzo's blog is more dangerous in that people believe it supports the Palestinians whereas it is the best thing that the Zionists could wish for.

But if we deal with the organ grinder not the monkey, i.e Ms Rizzo, she tells us that 'I don't have to make anything up.'

Having done that she goes on to say 'It's all you saying that the Palestinians are not a people.'

Uuh? I said that Palestinian nationhood was formed as a result of Zionist colonisation, not that they weren't a people today. Talk about making things up.

Then the fool tells us that 'It is you who places people into racial categories' before going on to say that 'You are safe as milk, Tony, since you are a blog that protects Jewish interests'.

Jewish interests. now what are they? Do all Jewish people have the same interests? If so then that is precisely the racial categorisation I have criticised. The problem with these idiots is that they don't even understand their own words.


Oh and I've never visited the Jewdas site. Unlike Mary I don't have time to spend on the net all day. But I'm aware of them. They are a satirical kind of group and if they attack rabbis all the better! BUT they are not anti-Semitic. Rizzo and friends are and that is the difference.

I have deleted Mary's comment calling me a 'little Hitler' and if she continues to be offensive then I will continue to delete. I've left all her other stuff up though I'm not having Sara Gillespie on this blog.

Mary obviously doesn't understand the difference between people and 'a people' or nation. The Palestinians have always been people, like anyone else, for as long as they lived but THEY THEMSELVES did not define themselves as such until colonialism forced them to. Just as the Indians weren't a nation until British imperialism invaded and unified the Mughal Empire and the various principalities. Unfortunately Mary is, well, one sandwich short of a loaf and is unable to understand this.

Mary thinks I'll call her Jewish because her mum is jewish. Wrong Mary. I have never called you Jewish. if you don't see yourself as a Jew then who am I to define you differently? It may be that you have a hang up about this but it's not my concern. I am not into the Zionist thing of defining others. I'll leave it to each individual to supply their own definition. My reasons for saying I am Jewish are because of anti-Semites like Rizzo and fascists as well as Zionists who attack Palestinians in the name of all Jews. It is simple really.

Yes Jews are much like Catholics. There is a certain political attachment but in essence it is a religion that has been nationalised or Zionised but nonetheless I make a sharp distinction between being Jewish and Zionist. Likewise I would never attribute to Catholics the nonsense idea that they are a people or nation. mary really needs to get into gear regarding these debates, which are quite old. Abandon all your anti-Semitic and racist crap and start doing a bit of analysis.

Despite all the reams of rubbish that Atzmon writes about Jewish identity, all of which are meaningless and NEVER form part of any debate outside his own circles, when someone like Mike Marquesee comes along and writes a book about jewish identity 'Journey of an anti-Zionist jew' people sit up and take notice.

Pity that Rizzo's mob are so inarticulate, but then that's what happens to racists.

thecutter said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
joe90 said...

I see Mary Rizzo is still unable to answer my question -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

Instead, Mary prefers to answer questions I've never asked - so could you please answer this question Mary.

Joe, maybe you don't know the difference between a Zionist and a Jew?I do.
- I thought you who didn't know Mary. After all, you believe the claims made by the Israeli government that Israel is a 'Jewish' state.
This means you don't know how to handle such claims regarding Judaism when they are made.
I don't believe such claims myself. In fact, I think such claims are extremely harmful to Jewish folk and to Judiasm. So they can hardly be Jewish.

Also, Mary is still unable to cope with the distinction between the history of modern nationalism, which is quite recent for the globe as a whole - and the history of humanity of any given area. The latter subject being vastly older than the politics and history of modern nationalism.

Instead, Mary tries her usual mis-direction routines as well as mis-representing what people are saying in order to hide her own obvious woeful ignorance.

Once again Mary, and just to keep repeating the same facts you have trouble recognising - nobody is saying Mandate Palestine was empty before zionists arrived or that there were no people living in Mandate Palestine.

People such as myself, who prefer to know what we are talking about because that's how much we care about Palestine and its People, agree with the likes of Rashid Khalidi and other Palestinians, just for instance, when they state that the influence of zionism and western imperialism-colonialism in general, has affected the collective identities of the Peoples of the Middle East.

And spectacularly backfired, "what"? That you don't know or care about the right of existence that prescinds all other claims to the land in which the Palestinians have always lived, because they alone have this total natural right.
- Here is Mary, as usual, mis-representing what people are saying. Notice she doesn't even mention 'nationalism' nor can she, as she is completely clueless.
Nor has anyone even mentioned the rights of Palestinian and what their basis is.

How anyone like you Mary, who has no grasp of elementary Palestinian history, can be of any use to their cause, I've no idea.

thecutter [minus abuse!] said...

TG: My reasons for saying I am Jewish are because of anti-Semites like Rizzo and fascists as well as Zionists who attack Palestinians in the name of all Jews. It is simple really.

Mary: huh? You say you are Jewish fine, who cares. But the reasoning behind it is what is ridiculous and also Zionist, that you see yourself as part of a group you are born into and therefore represent a group instead of your own idiotic self... you do it because people attack Palestinians in the name of Jews. And, you attacking Palestinians as you do by insulting their intelligence is supposed to help them, you, the Jews, what???

So, you censor and gatekeeper xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx because I point out that Voltaire wrote, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." You brag (!!!) that you close down sites, that you alone decide what is acceptable or not. The f**king chutzpah of it all, Tony. Can't you see that you are just like a book burner? Newer saw Jewdass site? How much internet time do you think I have? Why do you presume so much?

Keep on smearing, Joe is here to cheer you on. (thank me for bringing in five new readers today Tony. It gives your life meaning, evidently).

24 April 2008 19:23

Tony Greenstein said...

Mary: huh? You say you are Jewish fine, who cares.

The simple answer Mary is that obviously you do, since you can't keep going on about it. The quotes below are just from the comments on this one article!! And all by you.

It's bad enough when Mary doesn't bother to read what others have written. It's even worse when she can't even remember what she has written.

Mary: You are safe as milk, Tony, since you are a blog that protects Jewish interests

Mary: It's another proud Jew who hates the same people you hate.

Mary: all those articles about shagging Jewish boys, about making the most of Jewish stereotypes,

Mary: Joe, maybe you don't know the difference between a Zionist and a Jew? I do. Tony would still call me a Jew even though I am atheist, just as he is. He might not do the same to a Catholic, but Catholics are "different..." they are not Jews. He would call my Mum a Jew even though she converted a few years ago.

Tony Greenstein said...

And Mary asked, in the context of 'proving' how unpopular Jews were in the 1930's and 1940's:
'Why the hell else were there extermination and concentration and labour camps?'

How about trying fascism Mary. It just might have had something to do with it.

And then the fool goes on to say:
"But the reasoning behind it is ... Zionist, that you see yourself as part of a group you are born into and therefore represent a group instead of your own idiotic self... you do it because people attack Palestinians in the name of Jews."

Unfortunately, despite being a translator, Mary has great difficulty understanding the English language. Yes I was born a Jew. No I don't see myself as Jewish on that account. If there was no Zionism and there were no Palestinians dispossed by settler colonialism acting in the name of the Jews, and if there were no fascists who attack Jews for being Jewish, then I would not be a Jew. I am therefore Jewish for political/cultural reasons not because of Jewish religious law which accords me that status on account of my birth. I would not choose to identify as being Jewish if it were not for the above factors.

And your sentence is also a non-sequitur, i.e. the latter part does not follow logically from the first. Granted I see myself as Jewish, albeit not for the reasons that Mary gives, there is no 'therefore [you] represent a group instead of your own idiotic self."

I do not, and never have claimed to represent Jews as a group. Such a claim would be nonsensical since the majority of Jews today identify, to a greater or lesser extent with the State of Israel. Since I don't identify with that state how can I possibly be held to represent Jews as a group?

But Mary is, for once, right when she says:
"you do it because people attack Palestinians in the name of Jews."

That's absolutely right. You've got it at last. But how does that make me a Zionist UNLESS you subscribe to the idiot Atzmon view that if you speak up as a Jews, even if it is against Zionism, that makes you even more a Zionist than the Zionists!

The logic defies belief but then with the Rizzo/Atzmon team, it's not the only thing.

And contrary to Mary's other assertions re Voltaire, yes I do defend freedom of speech but not the freedom of racists to abuse others. That is one less I have learnt about the Nazis and Mussolini. And contrary to her suggestions, I have not closed down any blogs. Unfortunately Google, for whatever reason, decided that her blog was a spam blog. Who am I to disagree?

Auschwitz Redcoat said...

Mary, Mary quite contrary, how does your hypocrisy grow!

Or are you equally as contemptuous of people who call themselves Palestinians and Muslims. Not just the Jews then?

I do hope you start putting your lipservice to group identity divestment into practice.

A good starting point would be to disassociate yourself from the PSM, then the next logical step would be a great relief to all when you rid yourself of the social identity marker of language. It seems however you are already taking steps to abandon membership of the human race.

Human beings are by their virtue group animals. We are chattering apes that evolved from a pool of slime.

Perhaps you read that already and have indeed been making great progress indeed of choosing not be human. But do ditch the language soon as we seem to mistake you for being a Jew-obsessed racist when in fact you are just a misunderstood shifting mess of unthinking slime.

Anonymous said...

Tony, if you refuse to have Sarah Gillespie on your blog, how come you visit her website & tried to join her fan mailing list?

Typical, imposing yourself on other people's space & then pretending you're a victim. Where have we heard that before?

Tony Greenstein said...

Yes it would be very hypocritical if I visited her website and tried to (notice the 'tried to') her fan mailing list.

The plain fact is that I have done neither, at least I'm not aware of visiting her website (I assume it has her name on it) still less becoming a fan of hers!

She is of course quite able to visit this website, but given her resort to abuse at the first opportunity I don't see why she should be offered an opportunity to engage in the same here. if her posts are non-abusive and reasoned I shall let them through.

>>Tony, if you refuse to have Sarah Gillespie on your blog, how come you visit her website & tried to join her fan mailing list?

Typical, imposing yourself on other people's space & then pretending you're a victim. Where have we heard that before?

joe90 said...

I see Mary Rizzo, the self-styled popular champion of Palestine, has again failed to protect Palestinians from zionist allegations they are antisemitic, by failing to answer this question -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

Mary, unable to protect Palestinians from zionist charges that they are indeed as antisemitic as she is, says -
Why the hell else were there extermination and concentration and labour camps?

Mary claims she is the champion of Palestinians, but on their behalf although no-one has asked her to really, she continues to repeat blatant anti-Palestinians zionist propaganda!

As with much to do with Mary (which is much to do about nothing), she is unaware she is repeating zionist propaganda about the need for a safe haven for Jewish People subject to irrational persecution for being Jewish.

As well as that,
consider atzmon's relationship with one of the UK's most notorious Hamas-hating Muslim-baiting blogs, 'Harry's Place' -
- with friends like these, Palestinians don't need enemies.

To think as well, Mary criticises British anti-zionist Jewish folk for not fully supporting Hamas, elected the government of the Palestinian Authority. She alleges, evidence-free fact-free as usual, its because of their 'Jewishness' (cue howls of pavlovian derision from the antisemitic followers of Mary's 'pissonpalestine' blog) that they don't support Hamas, an Islamic based political party.

Yes, Atzmon openly associates with anti-Hamas Ummah-hating racist, zionist, scumbags in order to dig up dirt on one of the UK's leading anti-zionist intellectuals and activists (Tony Greenstein).
Yes, Mary continually parrots zionist propaganda -
- and they both do all this hard work on behalf of Palestine and Palestinians!

joe90 said...

ps
I meant to say well done at the winning the industrial tribunal TG.

I sometimes do work for my local Citizen's Advice Bureau, and they do sterling work for workers with grievances, representing them at Industrial Tribunals.

I can't wait for the day when there is real democracy in the workplace - and workers don't have to give up most of their human rights just becuase they are in their workplace.

Whenever someone is killed at work, the corporate news media automatically label it 'an accident' - no proof needed.
Same phenomena applies with 'road accidents'.

Tony Greenstein said...

Thanks Joe. It's always nice winning, especially when a shit of an employer pretends that the person he sacked, an older woman nearly 60 had 'resigned' when he in fact sacked her. However the Tribunal wasn't deceived.

Of course our old friend Atzmon has utter contempt for workers and their struggles as he imagines that the world revolves around elitists like himself with their racist conspiracy theories.

Wasn't Rizzo once on the left?

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

How very strange Tony! Sarah seems to have recieved the following allert from her manager's site with subject: Please add me Sarah's E-Mailing List. Has some imposter stolen your identity?
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 03:04:19 -
Subject: Please add me to SARAH's E-Mailing list
From: azvsas@googlemail.com

This message was sent from:

Name of sender: AZvsAS
Email of sender: azvsas@googlemail.com

Anonymous said...

Anonymous

Hmmm, Columbo. Perhaps more than one person uses that e-mail adress.

DU-UH!

Tony Greenstein said...

No I very much doubt that anyone has stolen my identity. I suspect that it is someone who goes by the name Abu Azmon, Yocheved, Knuckles and all the other pseudonyms including my own on one occasion.

Or maybe Ms Gillespie has merely made it up in order to demonstrate how much in demand she is these days. Or there again anonymous could be Ms Gillespie herself. Who know, who cares? All I can say is that I have no possible desire to go to Gillespie's website, nor do I even know its address having never gone there. I suggest she looks to her fellow anti-Semites if she wants an answer to this 'riddle'.


>>How very strange Tony! Sarah seems to have recieved the following allert from her manager's site with subject: Please add me Sarah's E-Mailing List. Has some imposter stolen your identity?

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
joe90 said...

You can see why Palestinian solidarity in the UK has no need of these evidence-free, fact-free antisemitic bigots.

It says a lot when I can't tell the difference between a zionist agent provocatuer and a fan of mary rizzo's 'pissing on palestine' blog.

Like rizzo, you're trying too hard Francis - believe me, you aren't really that funny. After all the time and effort you have put into your antisemitic effort of a piss-poor blog, it is actually rubbish.

Scottish nationalist
- Exactly, and never to be confused with British imperialism.
In Scotland you are either one or the other.
You are either for supporting the Israeli government, British imperialism, or your not, Scottish nationalism.

Of course, what's the point of discussing Scotland and the meaning of its national politics and history - when you antisemitic numbskulls haven't a clue about Palestinian nationalism.

As usual, if you don't support atzmonic-rizzoist antisemitism then there is to be no solidarity at all with Palestine, by anyone - hence the denigration of British Jewish anti-zionists and Scottish anti-imperialist anti-zionists.

This sounds to me very much like gateheeping - if you don't support our antisemitism we'll defame and deliberately disrupt the British solidarity movement.

Zionist criminal
Check the resords - it's atzmon who was the professional paid killer of Palestinians - a uniformed zionist thug - why don't you go on about his actual real zionist crimes - or am I being too much of the gatekeeper unlike yourself, who absolves the crimes of zionists but not anti-zionists?

Yes, here we have the usual upside version of fact-free evidence-free reality from antisemites and their zionist hasbara agents. You can't tell the two apart. This is what happens when antisemites exploit Palestinian suffering in order to victimise innocent Jewish people.

As part of the UK solidarity movement, on my adopted Homepage you can find out what Scotland is doing to help the cause of peace and justice for Palestinians and for Jewish-Israelis. Please feel free to denigrate any and all the Scottish organisations, events and people you'll find listed on it, after all, none are pro-zionist antisemites -
Scotland for Justice for Palestine

azvsas said...

Racism from Francis (an obvious Rizzonist-Atzmonite)removed.

Master McGrath said...

Oh come on Joe! Do you really think that pseudo-intellect-shills like Rizzo and other Atzmon hand maidens would do anything to disabuse themselves of their shallow Imperialist understanding of geography and ethnicity.

Scotland the modern nation haunted by the ghosts of ethnic cleansing. Dripping with blood of Imperialsim. With the skeletons of slavery in its closet. The cooked books on oil revenue. The cannon fodder...

A country made only possible by subjugating and near wiping out an entire ethnicity. An ethnicity that once had its own Kingdom.

Anyone who thinks that Scottish nationalism is the same as English racism, is both ignorant of the abuse of terminology and politically illiterate.

Okay, I'll spit it out= Scottish NAtionalism is a movement seeking the establishment of a Scotland with home-rule (and varying degrees of opinion on autonomy from the Unite Kingdom).

Reading anything as relevant as Hobsbawn would be just too much of an eyeopener for Ostrich Rizzo and Gilad Nietzsche in their fairy tale land where nation states have always existed as have all languages and religions.

A conception of territory eerily similar to religious Zionism.

I wouldn't be surprised if she also believes that there was never a time before television.

joe90 said...

Francis is racist,
but try the article on mary rizzo's 'pissing on palestine' blog regarding their internet rubbish. Mary uses it as a peg on which to hang her obvious racism.

Mary's article doesn't just reek of her characteristic antisemitic racism, there's also this typical rizzo gem of ineloquence -
Just when you thought the days of being the loudest, proudest Jewish Anti Zionist fighting like mad against any other anti-Zionists and calling them Anti-Semites without any real reason to do so (especially if they were Jews) were long gone..

Obviously, mary doesn't include atzmon, who openly associates and is in cahoots with some the UK's leading zionist anti-Islamic, anti-Hamas bloggers at 'Harry's Place' in order to undermine British-Palestinian solidarity.

Perish the thought that mary would want to defend such a worthless piece of anti-semitic-zionist, anti-Palestinian anti-intellectual low-life as atzmon.

Tony Greenstein said...

I couldn't work out what all this Francis stuff was about until I uncovered an e-mail in my inbox, my co-editor having deleted him/her or whatever.

Seems to me, being quite thick, Sarah G has forged an application to her own blog in my name and claimed that as 'proof' that I want to join her fan club (does she have any?). Since I've never listened to her records this would be somewhat surprising but I prefer the Dixie Chicks, who at least have (relatively) good politics compared to the Atzmon clique.

The reason that Atzmon's small band of groupies are doing this is that people are rapidly sussing them out. Only last night at the anarchist Cowley Club in Brighton someone mentioned a meeting which is being held on anti-Semitism and Zionism when they mentioned the fact that some supporters of the Palestinians are anti-Semitic citing Atzmon by name. I had to correct him. Atzmon & co. are no supporters of the Palestinians (how since he's never been on a single picket or demonstration) he's a supporter of himself and the Palestinian artist he used to work with Reem Khilani, he tried to rip off. It took, by his own admission, over 4 years to eventually pay up and apparently he owes royalties to none other than Mahmoud Darwish.

He's an interesting person to give a lecture on ethics and morality!

TG

Master McGrath said...

Joe: well I can guarantee if someone posted something similar using Arab stereotypes, she'd throw a fit and scream racism from high Heaven.

Like a true racist however she deems one group to be different (unequal) to the other and it seems it's okay if it is Jews being given the 'Jolly Nigger' makeover.

No wonder she can't spot racism when it's sinking it's fangs into her backside, if this falls within her standards of acceptability.

joe90 said...

Don't hide atzmon's light under a bush TG,
you fail to mention the fact atzmon is in solidarity with those in the UK who don't want to boycott zionists -
ie atzmon wants us all to join hands with the likes of the UK's premier anti-Palestinian-Hamas-Ummah hating blog, 'Harry's Place', and boycott the Palestinian-led boycott of Israeli academia.

Maybe mary rizzo's 'pissing on palestine' blog can give us all an update on atzmon's activities regarding his anti-zionist picketing/demo appearances in the UK, since he arrived?

Or more likely, the number of his non-appearances when he has been in the vicinity of pro-Palestinian demonstrations of solidarity in the UK (he does get about a lot seemingly - but nobody has ever seen him).

ps
Top man master macgrath!

By the way mm,
Rizzo put images of the Saltire and Stewart Standard on an article of hers, along with an image of a Scottish soldier in the pay of London - just in order to undermine the trust in the efficacy of Scottish solidarity with our sisters and brothers under the jack-boot of the British imperialists abroad.
After all, rizzo claims such popularity for herself amongst the Ummah, this can be the only possible interpretation of her deliberate attempts to defame and besmirch Scottish-Palestinian solidarity.

What a twisted antismetic racist she is.

all the best mm!

Master McGrath said...

Cheers Joe!

Being descended from notorious Jacobites, I can only shake my head in disbelief. Is nothing sacred???

I almost feel the obligation to petition the Council for "letters of fire and sword"

Well it could have been worse it could have been the Campbell coat of Arms, the Argyll Regiment and picture of William of Orange...

Well as you know there are complex class issues regarding the Scottish Regiment(s)... still being a major target of the predatory recruitment in areas that have never recovered from Thatcherism and still being the canon fodder of choice.

But I guess being against the socialist principals of redistribution of wealth and the democratisation of the means of production, it's a straight black & white issue of "individual choice" for Rizzian-Atzmonists.

But anyone with any common sense would steer clear of exploiting Scots soldiers for any political point that wasn't being made by Scots military families... the biggest driving force of the anti-war movement outside the traditional activist community.

Well, just like her guru, she seems thoroughly ignorant of the better levels of Muslim social integration in Scotland compared to many EU countries.

Master McGrath said...

"Only last night at the anarchist Cowley Club in Brighton someone mentioned a meeting which is being held on anti-Semitism and Zionism when they mentioned the fact that some supporters of the Palestinians are anti-Semitic citing Atzmon by name."

Well, the pitfalls of consensual collectivism means it can take a long time for things to get fixed.

It also means that the chances of a coup within the anarchist movement is minimised (I hope the joke isn't too subtle!)

But good news indeed!

Anonymous said...

I couldn't work out what all this Francis stuff was about until I uncovered an e-mail in my inbox,
Seems to me, being quite thick, Sarah G has forged an application to her own blog in my name and claimed that as 'proof' that I want to join her fan club (does she have any?).

A: Tony, how did Sarah find out your email if, as you claim, you never supplied her with your email address?

TG: Since I've never listened to her records this would be somewhat surprising but I prefer the Dixie Chicks

A: How do you know if you 'prefer' the Dixie Chicks if you've never heard the music you claim to prefer them to?

Curiouser & curiouser....

Tony Greenstein said...

There's no mystery at all, except in the particularly thick head of our Atzmon clone.

Gillespie plays alongside Atzmon and has, on one occasion, replied on his behalf on Rizzo's pepa site. I therefore assume it wouldn't be all that difficult to obtain my e-mail address from the object of her devotion, if not from Rizzo herself.

How do I know if I prefer the Dixie Chicks if I've never heard Gillespie? Well if she's an understudy for Atzmon it's clear to me that disliking Atzmon's music I'm hardly likely to want to listen to hers. And anyway, music arises in a certain context - the Dixie Chicks are an anti-war group who stuck their necks out when the war was popular in the USA. Gillespie is just an abusive common & garden anti-Semite who is obviously so desperate for attention that she manufactures e-mails to her fan club.

Why are Atzmon and his gang so stupid? No its a rhetorical question.

Tony

>> couldn't work out what all this Francis stuff was about until I uncovered an e-mail in my inbox,
Seems to me, being quite thick, Sarah G has forged an application to her own blog in my name and claimed that as 'proof' that I want to join her fan club (does she have any?).

A: Tony, how did Sarah find out your email if, as you claim, you never supplied her with your email address?

TG: Since I've never listened to her records this would be somewhat surprising but I prefer the Dixie Chicks

A: How do you know if you 'prefer' the Dixie Chicks if you've never heard the music you claim to prefer them to?

Curiouser & curiouser....

peacepalestine said...

Obviously, Greenstein believes that no decent person should appreciate Wagner.

Far as I know Dixie Chicks don't do anti-war songs, but just said they didn't like Bush. But, you're the expert in culture, Greenstein.

Tony Greenstein said...

I'm sure some decent people do indeed appreciate Wagner but I doubt if our anonymoius goose-stepping clone quite fits the bill.

I wasn't aware there were 'experts' in culture, though maybe you would have to be one to appreciate the wretched Gillespie.

The Dixie Chicks 'Travelling Soldier' would seem to me to be the epitome of an anti-war song and yes, they did come out against the war, not merely Bush.

joe90 said...

Tony Greenstein under the microscope!

Now TG is expected to explain and justify every instance that reveals what has been already amply proven time and again, especially by TG himself viz,
- that atzmon-rizzo-gillespie are in fact, like all antisemites, as thick as shit in the neck of a bottle.

antisemitic 'pissonpalestine' says -
Greenstein believes that no decent person should appreciate Wagner
- What an admission from our anti-solidarity gatekeeping antisemites!

Just as antisemites wrote music, so must it also be ok for antisemites to be part of an anti-racist solidarity campaign!
That musical creativity and appreciation has nothing to do with antisemitism - so neither must it have much bearing when antisemites claim they care about Palestinian suffering.
Anti-semite gatekeepers such as 'pissonpalestine' using Wagner as an example, in order to justify antisemitism in the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign!
Didn't the old nazis deploy the same argument to justity their cultural bias in favour of antisemitism too!


TG even has to defend the obvious bravery of the Dixie Chicks who declared, in their own fashion, their solidarity with the victims of the US Empire ie Palestinians and the rest -
'pissonpalestine' says -
Far as I know Dixie Chicks don't do anti-war songs, but just said they didn't like Bush. But, you're the expert in culture, Greenstein.

Let's see if atzmon is as brave as the Dixie Chicks - let him publicly declare, every time he's on stage, that Hitler's victim had it coming to them - and that adult males should be allowed to interfere with other people's children (not their own of course, that would be sick and perverted and not 'advanced thinking' at all!).

The Dixie Chicks risked their careers and reputations amongst coprorate America, precisely at a time when it was extremely unfashionable to do so, to say the least.

Lets hear atzmon take the same brave stance and make a public declaration, outside the little antisemtic cyber-ghetto, him and his disciples constantly mistake for real life.

Even the Dixie Chicks are getting in the neck now -
- It isn't just the Ummah-hating desecrators and defilers of Islam over at 'Harry's Place' blog whom atzmon and his antisemite gang are in solidarity with - they're also in solidarity with Corporate America!

Oh yes and I forgot, Wagner was a musician and antisemite - so why should decent people object when so-called 'pro-Palestinian supporters' such as gillespie and atzmon turn out to be the same?

Anonymous said...

"Curiouser & curiouser...."

Don't you mean "tenuouser and tenuouser..."?

As the judge often says on Perry Mason 'can you please swiftly come to your point or relinquish the floor."

The more and more you digress into weird inconsequentialities the more desperate you look.

peacepalestine said...

Joe, are you for real or are you a joke? I am beginning to doubt if you are a Tony Greenstein one man fanclub jukebox that writes idiotic things without any reflection whatsoever.

As if we have to let the politics of people tell us of the artistic quality of things... Dylan is my God, but he's a Zionist. Does this mean I have to stop listening to Dylan?

Like all book burners, one considers them first on the supposed "political merits" before even knowing what they are. This is closed minded. I was taking the piss out of the closed mind of Tony. You take everything seriously.

Oh, jftr, I'd love to see Reem herself declare some of what you claim Greenstein.... seems the story's quite different than what you say! Shouldn't surprise anyone, since you are made to lie.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Tony Greenstein said...

Yes Dylan is a hero of mine too, but not for his politics. My understanding is that he is no longer a Zionist having abandoned that particular fad some time ago. Mary might wish to read Mike Marquesee's 'Wicked Messenger' where he touches on some of this.

I accept that art and politics don't coincide. Unsurprisingly really. But when we have someone purporting to claim that I have applied to become a fan of theirs then that must show some measure of desperation and would strongly suggest that their music is, well, not quite up to it. And anyway she's an understudy of Atzmon which should say all.

There are no closed minds here except in the case of Rizzo and the Atzmonites. One may indeed find some forms of art or music offputting because of the racist or chauvinistic politics of the author. With some people, like Rudyard Kipling, this was very apparent, despite his talents. As far as Wagner is concerned I can't really judge as I don't like opera and what I've heard is heavy and depressing (which probably fits Mary to a tee!).

I've only met Reem Khilani once, at the PSC 25th anniversary dinner last year. She brought up the subject of Atzmon and said how she used to be his musical partner and how he had ripped off her music, owed her large sums in royalties and was a thoroughly unpleasant and obnoxious bully. Typical traits of the average Israeli really. And that he even owed royalties to Mahmoud Darwish for stuff he'd 'borrowed'. She also made clear that she wanted nothing to do with him or his groupies like Rizzo or the equally obnoxious Gillespie. Apart from that I know nothing but she had no doubts that his interest in things Palestinian derived from his wish to 'borrow' their music without paying or without attribution.

As I don't like jazz anyway I'm in no position to confirm whether or not the above is true or not though I have my own opinions!

But it's nice to know that Mary, when wanting to distance herself from something, posts as 'anonymous'.

Tony G

joe90 said...

Joe, are you for real or are you a joke?
- Is that why you know nothing about the history and development of Palestinian nationalism Mary?

And wny you refuse to answer a simple question -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

mary rizzo aka 'pissing on palestine' did say -
As to not knowing history, Joe, get a new one, this one is tired, as it is indeed ridiculous for anyone to keep trying to point out that there was Anti-jewish sentiment in Europe during the 30s and 40s. Why the hell else were there extermination and concentration and labour camps?
24 April 2008 08:02

mary, what did the victims of the nazis need to do in order to save themselves - in other words, how could they have made themselves more popular?

I see we have more fluff about the personal details of mary's own existence. I couldn't care what your own personal preferences are mary, except you can't resist jew-baiting whenever the chance arises. It must have taken you ages to think of mentioning Wagner, as an example.


So now the antisemites are standing up for the Dixie Chicks, or are they?
Who knows - this is their usual style of not knowing what it is they have said from one comment to next, and from one internet article to the next.

peacepalestine said...

Tony, I don't post as anonymous so go dig up another load of crappy lies while you are censoring, gatekeeping and going against your own claims that you would only delete "fascist and racist rants". I am surprised I even posted here, because it is just the silly duo and getting you to stick to the topic is impossible. Joe knows I answered his redundant and OT question in about 5 other places, but like some kind of strange robot, keeps asking it. He did this same stuff to everyone on my blog, on any side of the political spectrum. I tend to think it is some sort of personality disorder.

Like Joe Kane, you also lack a sense of humour... the Wagner line was a joke, man. And, if you haven't heard him, though, you better get started. Loving opera, I can assure you that "heavy and depressing" must have been said by someone who knows absolutely nothing of opera, as it is often said by almost every writer on the genre that Wagner is the ultimate and pure sublime opera experience and having seen a few of his operas, I can attest to the fact that it is indeed amazing in every way.

I don't know if Dylan is a Zionist (still), but Infidels had the ode to Israel on it and take a look at the shot on the back. But, to like the Dixie Chicks, well, that's up to you. I don't think I will depend upon you for any cultural or musical suggestions.

I don't know what Anti-semites think of Dixie Chicks, Joe, I don't know any anti-Semites and I only know of the Dixie Chicks what I've seen years ago on internet, but if they are to represent the top of resistance music because they made a song, I guess that kind of music is not in its peak moment.

Now, Greenstein, GET REEM to speak for herself, every time you take people's word for Gold, they are always wrong and inventing the big stories. Why not fact check on it, because knowing how the publishing industry works, she is either saying the most idiotic thing in the world or she is deliberately telling tall tales to those who she thinks wants to hear them. She may not like Atzmon, and so what if she doesn't, but if she claims he has ripped her off, she should say it herself, publicly. Why doesn't she? Why not try, "because it's untrue", it will certainly do wonders for her own reputation. Oh, of course, I've heard the story from Atzmon, who has more reason to be honest with me because we are friends than Reem with you who she doesn't know. And, what sort of converstations do you have if my name comes up and I'm not a UK musician? Why would she want to or not want to have anything to do with me? What does she know me from? Sounds a bit "stalkish" to me.

Now, this is charming, you say: thoroughly unpleasant and obnoxious bully. Typical traits of the average Israeli really

Oh, how categorical of you, really! Actually, it sounds just like you and Joe! Time to check your IDs. oh, new Atzmon post up ON MY BLOG PEACEPALESTINE! (Yet another blog post of yours full of lies!) Check it out.

Tony Greenstein said...

Since I'm such a 'gatekeeper' (never gatekeeped in my life!) and censor, it is strange how I keep letting Mary's posts through! But she has to retail this and many other lies.

I don't like any opera so quite why I should like Wagner, who obviously Mary does, is beyond me. Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is music. What one person likes the other detests.

I like Dylan, Paul Simon, The Beatles, Stones, Kinks, Dixie Chicks, Gordon Lightfoot, Lorena McKennit, Fairport Convention, Dolly Parton, Neil Young, Bob Marley etc. But I don't like operate. Ok? Or jazz.

Like Mary I don't have a clue on whether Dylan is still a Zionist, a fundamentalist Christian or whatever. But after the initial bout of glory in the march to Washington his politics were shit. But I still liked his music, though at the time of Infidels it too was crap.

But really Mary. You do tell some whoppers. 'I don't know any anti-Semites' But you only know anti-Semites. What's Israel Shamir? Or Gilad Atzmon of the world Jewish conspiracy nonsense? Or the tender suffering conscience of Paul Eisen, to say nothing of Rowan Berkeley? All that stuff about 'Jewish interests' and 'Jewish power' have left you without the ability to call a spade a spade.

Reem doesn't want to have anything to do with this stuff. She told me that Atzmon had made her life hell, that he was an arrogant swine, was a parasite on the Palestinians etc. but she wants nothing to do with the controversies surrounding him as she wants to get on and build a musical career that he tried to wrekc. I respect that and wouldn't dream of imposing upon her.

There is of course no logic in Mary's argument that 'I've heard the story from Atzmon, who has more reason to be honest with me because we are friends'.

Friends also lie, both to themselves and their friends. Those are the ways of the world and given Atzmon is also a fantasist it is more than probable that he hasn't told his most devoted groupie the truth.

I did not say your name came up Mary. It didn't. I very much doubt that she is in the least interested in you. What she said was that she didn't want any association with the clique around him - no names were mentioned - by either of us.

Ah, so there is a new Atzmon post on Mary's blog. Now there's a surprise!!

Tony

joe90 said...

Joe knows I answered his redundant and OT question in about 5 other places...
- Well then, mary rizzo the liar, remind me again what the answer was?
If you've already said it 5 times, then saying it 6 times shouldn't make all that much of a difference.

Although, I do notice you have failed to repeat your allegedly oft repeated answer in your latest non-comment. Instead of answering truthfully, you opt for the oft repeated right-wing tactic of smearing your opponent -
He did this same stuff to everyone on my blog, on any side of the political spectrum. I tend to think it is some sort of personality disorder.

I think mary rizzo is refering to the final time I used her blog in earnest (about the same time as Tony Greenstein) and tried to get Rowan Berkeley to justify his claim that the Jews were responsible for WWI, WWII and the forthcoming WWIII.
Just as with Mary Rizzo at the moment who is justifying Nazi genocide and unable to answer a straightforward question about how disseminating neo-nazi propaganda helps Palestinians - so Berkeley wouldn't answer me then.
Indeed, Mary herself is such an antisemite she wouldn't ask Berkeley to justify his neo-nazi claims, nor did she ask Berkeley what an obvious neo-nazi was doing on a blog supposedly dedicated to helping Palestinians.
Instead, Mary got cross with myself and indeed, as people can see, she hasn't forgot - except the exact details of her antisemitic gatekeeping on her 'pissonpalestine' blog on behalf Berkeley


Mary will give us her own flatulent opnion about opera, before she answers straightforward questions about her infecting Palestinian soldiarity with her pro-zionist antisemitism. How more pro-Palestinian can you get?


you also lack a sense of humour... the Wagner line was a joke, man
- Of course it was mary, like all your other jew-baiting tactics and comments. You're hilarious.

And now Mary Rizzo is doing her gatekeeping act with music, the Dixie Chicks etc.
What is and is not to be seen as solidarity amongst musicians and the world of mucis - Mary will decide!

peacepalestine said...

Uh, Tony, try to read what you typed in a few minutes ago: "She also made clear that she wanted nothing to do with him or his groupies like Rizzo or the equally obnoxious Gillespie."

Bit different from: "I did not say your name came up Mary. It didn't. I very much doubt that she is in the least interested in you. What she said was that she didn't want any association with the clique around him - no names were mentioned - by either of us."

So, if you can't keep a scorecard on your own weak claims, why should anyone bother with the rest, Greenstein? Why not invite Ms Kelani to make these smears herself? If they are true, I am sure she will be glad to get it off her chest, don't you think so? Otherwise, those of us who know all the details will just know you are making up more lies and smears, anything will do, won't it? Don't forget: http://www.amin.org/look/amin/en.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=7&NrArticle=44670&NrIssue=1&NrSection=3 and other sites. You are just one long stream of errors, falsehood and smears. Got any time to "be solidial with Palestinians" between all of it?

Calling people Groupies is sexist, or doesn't that seem to occur to you?

Joe, sorry, you really want attention, but try to read what has already been typed elsewhere. Don't have the time to waste you obviously feel I've got.

Sic o'Phant said...

The Queen of Palestine has spoken!

All rise to a bow and retreat from the room backwards at full cringe!

Hail to the Queen!

peacepalestine said...

...not a nice thing to write about Ms. Kelani.

Sic o'Phant said...

It was obviously directed at you, the saviour and protector of Palestine.

joe90 said...

Joe, sorry, you really want attention, but try to read what has already been typed elsewhere. Don't have the time to waste you obviously feel I've got.
- This is the woman who craves after publcity and attention confusing it with 'solidarity'.

You claim you've already answered my question 5 times - which is a lie, as everybody knows.
However, if you aren't a liar Mary, then please let me know what the answer is, that I have missed 5 times already, to this question -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

This is exactly how Rowan Berkeley behaved in avoiding answering questions on his obvious neo-nazi propaganda.

Fact-free evidence-free Mary Rizzso claims -
You are just one long stream of errors, falsehood and smears.
So how about the origins and development of Palestinian national consciousness Mary?
You claimed you had proved that Tony Greenstein was a zionist - turns out the saviour and protector of Palestine know-nothing Mary Rizzo, hasn't the foggiest idea about the history of Palestinians.

I know zionists who know more than her about Palestinians.

Call me a liar, please Mary?

At least I can prove you one.

Sic o'Phant said...

Dear Loyal Subjects of the Privy Council,

While I was on the toilet enduring unusually obstinate and malodorous bowel movement, my mind turned somehow to Queen Mary of Palestine.

Far be it for us to question a Royal Proclamation in any other capacity other than seeking greater understanding as to we better give our unselfish devotion.

However, is it not verily sexist in itself to assert that the word "groupie" be sexist. Thus, that would itself imply that the word can only ever be used in a sexually unequal/partisan fashion.

In other words, to denounce the word as sexist one is truly saying that men cannot also be vain, calculating, whores who will or will strive to fuck a person of coveted social status- be it literally of metaphorically- either through underlying poor self-esteem or for personal advancement.

Quid pro quo, this suggest women alone are capable of this trait.

peacepalestine said...

Well, Sic o'phant, funny how the guy who tells the joke has to try and explain it. I knew you would attempt to get that in there and thanks for not letting me down!

As to Greenstein's reputation, don't ask me, why not ask Adib, a man who was uprooted from his Palestinian home and who fights for the return. This is a portion of his response to Tony, which Tony has been sent and while he mentions Adib, doesn't see fitting to share it with others.

"And now hear this don't be astonished, amazed or wonder: "Ironically the last article, picking up in her usual dishonest way, on a discussion on the Alef (Academic Left list hosted by Haifa University) where I stated that the creation of a Palestinian nation was ironically the outcome of Zionist colonisation, was proof that I was a Zionist!" (TG) What else would one consider a person to be a Zionist out of his mind to say a Palestinian nation was ironically the outcome of Zionist colonization. Simply please refer to my attached Article in comment to such a nonsense. Nations are not created or invented by those who try their best to annihilate them. I take the liberty to attach here the full article: "Palestinians are not a nation, Palestinians are part of the Arab Nation". But one thing is exactly the full truth: Zionist colonization, meaning that Zionism is a byproduct colonialism. Hadn't Palestinian Arabs been a part of a full fledged Arab nation with deep roots in this land that they love more then life, they wouldn't have fought and sacrificed every thing that is most dear for them for over 130 full years. The didn't fight only Zionism but also British colonialism that created the Zionist ideology to serve its colonialist interest in the Arab homeland!!! The irony is that Zionists create lies and after sometime believe them. The famous Jeha character told the children who were teasing him, look children, you see that house on the hill? There is a wedding there and they distributing candies; so the children ran to it, and Jeha ran after them, saying that it could be true…

The Zionist writer said. "But the mere fact that people occupy a land doesn't make them a people or nation…" True… But this applies to Zionists who occupied the land of others. Palestinian Arab root are very deep in Palestine, going back to the Jebusite Arab tribes that lived in Palestine thousands of years before the first Hebrew invader sat foot on this land, claiming that their g-d promised it to them. God is not a colonialist. The Jebusite who built Jerusalem 1500 years before David occupied it and made it his capital and named it "The City of David" for 70 years when the Jebusites liberated their capital city.

Tony!!! Who??? Said; so who are the Zionists now, we don't have to repeat the above in length… They are colonialist, racist occupiers of this land, but I am at loss to know what are you a Zionist or and anti Zionist are you are both?!

One can ask Gelad Atzmon and his Palestinian Arab friends about what he thinks regarding their love and commitment to their land and you don't have to ask them what they are determined to do. Would anybody with a sense of logic ask those Palestinians who are fighting against all odds and their never ending sacrifices for Palestine and their insistence to liberate it from Zionist occupation, which had been going uninterrupted for 13 full decades, are they frustrated and ready to give up their right in it. Only somebody who says that "Palestinian patriotism is a byproduct of British and Zionist occupation" do they mean that only when they were occupied they started to know that they are a people?!!!

Some Jews who were brain polluted with Zionism woke up, exactly like Atzmon, Pape, Giladi…. And many others who used to be on the far right of the Zionist ideology woke up and realized how misled they were and decided to leave the land of Arab Palestine to its lawful owners.

All Zionist justifications are based on sheer lies. An ideology that was created for a purpose without foundations, and just to serve the ambitions of colonialist powers to strengthen and extend its life span, is a colonialist movement like itself that shall reach and end and die. Colonialist powers lead by Britain created Zionism to get rid of Jews from their amongst for racist reasons, and then make use of them in other parts of the world that they consider vital for colonialist interests. Old Zionism died to be inherited by neo-colonialism, which Zionism is a main partner. Take what is taking place now. The Zionist entity is inciting the neo-colonialist powers to wage wars here and there to weaken what they consider to be their enemies and form a threat to their fabricated entity.

There are people who would go around and around to prove something that they are not sure of!

"The reason is simple, though liberated Jews insist upon being ‘like others’, it is rather clear that others prefer actually to be ‘like themselves’." Liberated Jews, liberated from what? In detaching ones self from his other compatriots on religious basis, a religion they for one reason or another they adopted and converted to?! Zionist Jews decided to be like themselves, Zionist are detaching themselves from themselves. They worked hard so as not to become themselves, thus they invited hate against themselves.

Zionists committed terrorism against innocent others to detach themselves from themselves. This is what they have done. Their biggest religious/racist/Zionist leaders are now calling for the annihilation of every last Palestinian starting with baby Palestinians.

Zionist wants to "self emancipate themselves" by denying others of their liberty and inherited rights.

I stop here as I had enough of philosophizing nonsense

Who are you to tell what I am and what I am not?

Adib S. Kawar

Sic o'Phant said...

PeePee: you seem to have great difficulty differentiating between race, ethnicity, nationood, statehood and worst of all seem to have no grasp of cause and effect.

No person here has argued that Paletinians weren't Arabs... and I know Arabs that choke with laughter if you say "The Arab Nation"- nice dream...

What has been observed here is that the drive towards a Palestinian nation state has been considerably influenced if not necessitated by the invasive and illegal establishment of the state of Israel.

There are no qualitative value judgments in that statement (other than a Zionist arguing against the use of the words "invasive" and "illegal"... but given international law rulings, both adjectives are valid even from an objective stance)

It smacks of either desperation or total ignorance to try and twist the observation of cause and effect into something that it it plainly isn't.

And this keeps getting pointed out to you, but never seems to sink in.

And one more, the establishment of Israel and the effects of that on the local Arab population influenced significantly the drive toward Palestinian statehood.

It is totally mindbending to twist than into "The Jews invented Palestine".

It would be as equally as absurd to follow the paradigm and state that disease invented hospitals. As clearly hospitals were invented because people wanting to avoid untimely death and avoidable suffering.

Now stating that in now way spins disease as man's best friend.

Or to put it in another way. Stating that socialism was a byproduct of the Industrial Revolution can hardly be seen as a glowing endorsement of capitalism.

Observing that one thing causes another to evolve is not an endorsement of the impetus. It's not even an endorsement of the reaction. It is no endorsement at all.

It's that simple.

joe90 said...

sic o' phant mate,
don't forget that typhoid mary insisted that no one had the right to discuss Palestinian nationalism in relation to zionism -
- and that is all she has done herself, in that comment of hers!

And typhoid mary, with that antisemitic disease of hers. continues to grossly mis-represent what other are saying, in order to efface her own ignorance about the history and development of Palestinian nationalism.
For the umpteenth time -
- Nobody is saying Palestine has been uninhabited and that no people lived in the Levant-Mandate Palestine before zionists arrived. The only person who is saying that, (repeatedly, despite being repeatedly corrected) is typhoid mary who claims that is what Tony Greenstein is saying.

Notice typhoid mary and her usual tactic of using Palestinians as sandbags to hide behind - deliberatley putting Palestinians at loggerheads with non-Palestinians. That's mary's version of solidarity.

Just like Palestinian history, solidarity is whatever typhoid mary says it is.

There are people who would go around and around to prove something that they are not sure of!
- Just like typhoid mary herself, and her non-knowledge of the history of Palestinian nationalism, which she considers eternal and undying something or other.
Much like the rest of her gibberish, there is always the faint whiff that tyhpoid mary does actually believe in zionist and Nazi 'blood and soil' philosphy.

Notice typhoid mary's characteristic equating zionism with Judiasm - in fact, that is all her and atzmon's antisemtism boils down to.
Some Jews who were brain polluted with Zionism woke up...
...they worked hard so as not to become themselves, thus they invited hate against themselves.
- Hence their unpopularity with the Nazis, as well as with Mary.
They invited their own unpopularity and hence, are responsible for the crimes of the Nazis.
Now isn't that what zionists claim about their victims too?


I stop here as I had enough of philosophizing nonsense
- Typoid mary calls her long chain of unreasoning and concatenation of non sequitors 'philosophizing'.
At least she got the 'nonsense' bit right as a description of her tiresome activities.

ps
Mary, as you haven't answered this question yet (or told me where your other 5 answers can be found which you claim exist) could you do so now -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

peacepalestine said...

Joe, I realise you are somewhat mad or something, but try to put your glasses on and realise that you are quoting Adib, not me. That is his letter. Maybe you better tell an uprooted Palestinian that he doesn't understand as much about his history as you do.

Tony Greenstein said...

My claim was that Ms Kelani didn't want any contact with the Rizzo's of this world. That was my spin on her comment that she didn't want to see Atzmon or his sycophants again. Clear now Mary?

'So, if you can't keep a scorecard on your own weak claims, why should anyone bother with the rest, Greenstein?'

But my dear Mary, if her allegations are true then they aren't smears are they? The reality is, and here you have given yourself away, any criticism of the object of your adoration, Atzmon, is a smear, so there would be no purpose in contacting you.

'Why not invite Ms Kelani to make these smears herself? If they are true, I am sure she will be glad to get it off her chest, don't you think so?'

Nor have I engaged in a debate with Adib. He may indeed, like some millions of Palestinians have been through hell itself, but his analysis is crude and sloganeering, much like his sponsors. Take this:

'Colonialist powers lead by Britain created Zionism to get rid of Jews from their amongst for racist reasons, and then make use of them in other parts of the world that they consider vital for colonialist interests.'

Apart from anything else this is not true. Political Zionism was launched by a Viennese Jew, Herzl, in 1895. Arguably the first practical Zionist was Leo Pinsker with his Lovers of Zion and 'Autoemancipation' pamphlet of 1882 and the Biluim (1st Aliyah) of the same date. The British had nothing to do with this.

There is no Arab nation going back into the mists of time. Nationhood is a recent phenomenon and the Arab peoples slowly began gaining a national consciousness in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Likewise the Palestinians. It may be a surprise to Adib but the fact that Arabs have always lived in Palestine doesn't therefore mean that they have always had a national consciousness.

Indeed it stands to reason that Palestinian nationalism is an extremely late phenomenon. Why? Because if there was an already existing Palestinian nation they would have risen up against the Ottoman Empire and they would have resisted from the start Zionist colonisation. It was as a result of that colonisation that Palestinian Arabs began to see themselves as part of one nation, but that was a slow process and says nothing about their right to the land at all. The Amerindians weren't a separate nation but their claims to the land were far greater than the American colonists. Likewise in Africa, so Adib I'm afraid you've been suckered by a Mary eager to get you and others to praise her 'outstanding personality'.

But if one wants to find a Zionist then Atzmon certainly fits the bill with his latest article praising Anthony Julius, which tells us on Ms Rizzo's blog just how right he is compared to his anti-Zionist Jewish opponents. Because at the end of the day Atzmon shares the Zionist contempt for those in the Jewish diaspora who refuse to accept Zionism represents them. Atzmon things that's wrong, because being Jewish you must be Zionist, and Julius of course thinks likewise.

Not that I'm sure why, a letter I haven't received anyway, should be quoted by Mary. Maybe she wrote it given that it is so ludicrous.

I know it's not fair to pick up Adib on everything, because he can't help being ignorant about his own history (I might suggest he reads a few issues of the Journal of Palestinian Studies and maybe Nathan Weinstock's Zionism a False Messiah) but the Palestinians haven't been fighting against anything 'for full 130 years'. You know why? Because in 1878 there were no Zionists in Palestine. The first colonists arrived in 1882 and they were a pitiful handful and it is even arguable whether they were Zionists in the later mould, rather than more traditional planters, as they did indeed exploit Arab labour - something Labour Zionism set its face against (because it wanted a wholly Jewish economy).

There was certainly no Palestinian national opposition to Zionism in the early years. Individual peasants and villagers who had been expelled raided their old lands but it wasn't till 1908 that the first Zionist militia - Ha Shomer was created. That is 100 years and even then it was more a localised initiative based around the Degania Kibbutz.

Why is this important? Because national myths only perpetuate a false understanding and are used to blind people to the actual process of colonisation and dispossession, though at least Adib recognises the centrality of colonialism, unlike Mary Rizzo.

The quote below from Adib is simply ludicrous. He asks what answer is to be given to someone who says that the Palestinian nation arose as a result of Zionist colonisation. Err well you could say he was either right or wrong!! It has nothing to do with being a Zionist.

A Zionist is someone who believes that Jews, wherever they live, has the right to go to Palestine to build or form or contribute to a Jewish state. That Palestine belongs to the colonists/Zionists not its indigenous population and that such a state must be a Jewish state ethnically, i.e. Jews should have priviliges not accorded to Palestinians. It has nothing to do with whether the Palestinians in 1910 considered themselves Syrian or indeed Ottoman subjects.

But simplicity is the way of the Rizzo's and their acolytes.

Tony G

'What else would one consider a person to be a Zionist out of his mind to say a Palestinian nation was ironically the outcome of Zionist colonization.'

peacepalestine said...

"She also made clear that she wanted nothing to do with him or his groupies like Rizzo or the equally obnoxious Gillespie."

Then: "I did not say your name came up Mary. It didn't. I very much doubt that she is in the least interested in you. What she said was that she didn't want any association with the clique around him - no names were mentioned - by either of us."

which later morphed into:

"My claim was that Ms Kelani didn't want any contact with the Rizzo's of this world. That was my spin on her comment that she didn't want to see Atzmon or his sycophants again. Clear now Mary?"

No, for sure it isn't: first of all, she makes it quite clear, and you mention "groupies like Rizzo or the equally obnoxious Gillespie"

then, apparently, our names weren't mentioned at ALL, and now, you add your spin about "Rizzos of this world"...

How anyone but you can make sense out of what you say is beyond me!

But, the smear was not about her impression of Atzmon, but about the "stealing". If it is true, then she should be quite willing to come out and say it. Ever wonder why she hasn't? Ever try that it's simply not true?

You know, a lot of people know information you don't know, but you infer someone's comments to mean whatever it is YOU want them to say.

If indeed Kelani claims she's been robbed, invite her to say it, rather than to allow you to smear on her behalf. I am sure that the reason is that your (her!) claim is false.

I actually know how the artistic relationship went. Since I've known one of the persons in question for years and you met the other one once at a dinner... and talked about your pet enemy, without mentioning names, naturalment! I mean, if I were the outside observer, I would sense that the story was not another one of your whoppers and instead, that you are taking one another for a ride, just like you and nutty Shraga have done about "false signatories", resulting in him grovelling in shame on Alef.

Now, you should have gotten Adib's letter. It was sent to you. I also don't think that Tony Greenstein has to teach Adib a single thing about history. When you get off your high horse that certainly you know better about the history of Palestine than a man who has investigated the history of it all his life and who was, among other things, a personal friend of George Habash, will be a new dawn indeed.

But, you think you know it all, only proving you know nothing at all.

Tony Greenstein said...

Well the fact is that I didn't get Adib's letter. Maybe it went into my junk mail box! However if he wants to write me a private letter/post that isn't going to be printed on Pepa then I will respond courteously. If it an open letter like the last one I will respond in kind.

Adib may have been the personal chauffer to George Habash but that doesn't make him knowledgeable about the history of Zionism. And if he has investigated history all his life then all I can suggest is that he turns his talents to another profession because the stuff he writes is, well, completely off the wall, a coupling of slogans. How anyone who has devoted more than a few hours to reading up about Zionism can claim it was a British invention is beyond me. But facts, historical facts, have never been your forte Mary because like him, you are ignorant.

And that is important. The fact that someone is Palestinian doesn't make them a historian. There are plenty of good Palestinian historians - the late Edward Said, Rashid Khalidi etc. Adib I'm afraid is no historian.

Let me give some examples of just why Adib is a cartoon caricature of a Palestinian intellectual:

1. A Zionist is someone who believes in a Jewish State and that Jews had the 'right of return' there. Atzmon thinks that which is why I term him a Zionist. It is inapplicable to a debate about when the Palestinian nation was formed. What does Adib say?

'What else would one consider a person to be a Zionist out of his mind to say a Palestinian nation was ironically the outcome of Zionist colonization.'
But then:

'Nations are not created or invented by those who try their best to annihilate them.'

It was not part of the Zionist project to annihilate but to expel the Palestinians.

2. Adib, despite knowing that the Palestinian nation has been going for thousands of years (a mirror image of Zionists who make the same ludicrous claim about the Jews) states that they fought Zionism and it would seem British colonialism for 130 years - before Zionism and the British made an appearance in Palestine!

'Hadn't Palestinian Arabs been a part of a full fledged Arab nation with deep roots in this land that they love more then life, they wouldn't have fought and sacrificed every thing that is most dear for them for over 130 full years.'

3. He believes the British created Zionism - what history book was that out of?

'The didn't fight only Zionism but also British colonialism that created the Zionist ideology to serve its colonialist interest in the Arab homeland!!!'

4. Noone knows whether the Jebusites or other Canaanite tribes were Arab or not. The term was meaningless then and the languages would have been very different to Arabic today. Indeed the Hebrew tribes would have been Arabic by the same definition. Noone doubts that Palestinian Arabs have a greater claim to Palestine than the Zionist settlers, but inventing a mythology doesn't advance one's cause.

I don't know who the 'Hebrew invader' is here. Is it the Zionists of the last century or the Hebrew tribes of 3 millenium or so ago? Because the latter were no more invaders than any other occupant of the time.

'Palestinian Arab root are very deep in Palestine, going back to the Jebusite Arab tribes that lived in Palestine thousands of years before the first Hebrew invader sat foot on this land, claiming that their g-d promised it to them.'

5. Adib doesn't know who I am but tells me that the Zionists are colonialists and racists. Agreed but tell that to Mary who doesn't believe that colonialism is an appropriate descriptor for the Zionists!

Tony!!! Who??? Said; so who are the Zionists now, we don't have to repeat the above in length… They are colonialist, racist occupiers of this land, but I am at loss to know what are you a Zionist or and anti Zionist are you are both?!

6. I don't ask Atzmon anything because that assumes he knows something! And there again we have 13 decades. Where does this come from. 1882 is not 13 decades away and there was no fight at that stage anyway.

'One can ask Gelad Atzmon and his Palestinian Arab friends about what he thinks regarding their love and commitment to their land ... and their insistence to liberate it from Zionist occupation, which had been going uninterrupted for 13 full decades,

8. No Atzmon is no anti-Zionist as his article praising Anthony Julius, one of the most disgusting of Zionist propagandists in Britain, demonstrates.

'Some Jews who were brain polluted with Zionism woke up, exactly like Atzmon, Pape, Giladi….'

9. Every formulation of Adib is crude. Zionism was not formed to serve the ambitions of the colonial powers but to achieve its objectives with the help of those powers. There is a difference but all Adib is able to do it would seem is spout slogans. It seems Rizzo's friends can only mouth cliches and ready made formulations. That is why she and Atzmon add nothing to peoples' undertanding of Zionism or Israel.

'An ideology that was created for a purpose without foundations, and just to serve the ambitions of colonialist powers to strengthen and extend its life span,...'

10. This is just rubbish. Now there is an old and presumably a 'new' Zionism. You couldn't make it up. And he's been studying history? God help us. I thought Zionism was the creation of colonialism, now it is inciting it!

'Old Zionism died to be inherited by neo-colonialism, which Zionism is a main partner. Take what is taking place now. The Zionist entity is inciting the neo-colonialist powers to wage wars here...'

13. Yes Adib, you are right for once. Look in the mirror!!

'There are people who would go around and around to prove something that they are not sure of!'

14. Yes a very profound Atzmonism meaning nothing at all. Any more quotes Adib?

"The reason is simple, though liberated Jews insist upon being ‘like others’, it is rather clear that others prefer actually to be ‘like themselves’."

Tony G

joe90 said...

Maybe you better tell an uprooted Palestinian that he doesn't understand as much about his history as you do.
- typoid Mary,
maybe you could stop pulling these rabbits out of your top hat and clearly label work and correspondence which isn't your own.

Invite these Palestinians along to comment sections on blogs - instead of you giving them only a passive walk-on part in your antisemitic little soap operas.

Please invite them along to speak in their own voice - don't become their editor and allow them only to speak through you and your editing of their thoughts for your own antisemitic purposes. That is gatekeeping.

Given the distortions and the way you grossly mis-represent what people say I neither trust the veracity of the correspondance you continually produce - neither do I trust you to properly represent what non-Palestinians are saying.

You are an antisemitic tapeworm deteremined to put Palestinians and non-Palestinians in conflict such is your antisemitism - such is your idea of solidarity.

It doesn't surprise me that an antisemite like typhoid mary would adopt zionist tactics of producing supposedly authentic but contradictory documentary material putting the basis of solidarity into question. Antisemites are after all zionists.

joe90 said...

...put your glasses on and realise that you are quoting Adib, not me. That is his letter.
- A letter specially chosen by an antisemitic non-Palestinian gatekeeper.
Now mary is disowning the fact this letter has been chosen by her for the very special purpose that its ideas are her own.
A typical example of mary using Palestinians as human shields to hide her own embarrassment behind.This is mary's idea of Palestinian solidarity.

Which of my points would you yourself disagree with mary, or can't you do independent thinking without atzmon's help?

mary still all at sea as far as the history of Palestinian nationalism is concerned.

ps
mary
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

joe90 said...

In contrast to some comment made by some chauffeur, or some bloke typhoid mary bumped into in a pub,
here are two Palestinian academics with articles related to Palestinian nationalism -

Reflections on Writing the History of Palestinian Identity
by Issam Nassar
Palestine-Israel Journal
Vol. 8 No 4, 2001 and Vol. 9 No 1, 2002

Dr. Issam Nassar is Associate Director of the Institute of Jerusalem Studies, Associate Editor of Jerusalem Quarterly File, and Associate Professor of History of Al-Quds University. He is author of Photographing Jerusalem.

Historical Dynamics Shaping Palestinian National Identity
by Manuel Hassassian
Palestine-Israel Journal
Vol. 8 No 4, 2001 and Vol. 9 No 1, 2002

Manuel Hassassian, Member of the PIJ Board of Sponsors and former Executive Vice-president of Bethlehem University, is a senior research associate teaching at the University of Maryland's Center for International Development and Conflict Management. Currently, Hassassian serves as the Palestinian ambassador to the United Kingdom.

The website has blog facilities so perhaps typhoid mary can go and explain to these Palestinian academics that she knows a chauffuer or some bloke in a pub she met, that told her they are wrong, and she is always right.

joe90 said...

I haven't come across it before but this does look a great website -
'Palestine-Israel Journal of Economics, Politics and Culture'

Here is the address of the issue I have refered to in my comment above this one -
National Identity
Vol. 8 No 4, 2001 and Vol. 9 No 1, 2002

all the best AZaAS!

Tony Greenstein said...

It's a waste of time Joe. Mary has no intention of reading the writings of Palestinian academics or writers who know something of their own history and are able to debate these issues. People like Joseph Massad or Ali Abunimah.

Instead Mary wants pliant idiots who 'have studied history all their life' but nonetheless claim that Zionism was a British invention!! She wants fools who will praise her and Atzmon's 'outstanding personalities' and who will engage in flattery rather than argument.

It's no wonder that most of these Palestinians aren't even sure if they signed her embarrassing (to everyone but her!) petition.

But to Palestinians who have studied things there is very little argument about the fact that the Palestinian nation came into existence, like most nations, relatively recently.

TG

peacepalestine said...

A chauffeur? Joe, what the hell is your problem?

I am not going to bother with your idiocy, as many of my friends told me, and I agree, that communicating anything with you two is like trying to get a stone to think, but Adib sent me this email, and I am posting it here.

Mary

Tell this stupid Tony rag head that Adib is double my age and he started writing about Arab nationalism and Zionism before I was born; so I don't have to use and teach him any thing. Most import a political entity doesn't make a nationality.

The Arabs ruled Spain for 6 centuries and the Spaniards remained Spanish, and Arabs were colonized by the Turks for 5 centuries and in spite adamant Turkish efforts to "Turkishize" them they remained Arabs and at the end revolted against them, and don't tell Adib British colonialism liberated them, on the contrary they brought them the Zionist plague amongst who the Tony rag head.

As for me I have much important things to occupy my self with then to argue with a fool foul mouth.

If you want to forward this to him it is up to you, but not me.

Salamat to you and shit to the shit.

Adib

My own note: you guys have an immense reputation with other activists, and with Palestinian people you put down continuously. I would reflect upon this. It seems you use them as your megaphone for some kind of libelous claim, which you are somehow reticent to have the claimant mention herself. Well, I wonder why, and so should you. But any other person who reads you and comes to the conclusion that you are idiots, rude and Zionists gets mud in the face from you. You did it with Mohammed in Redress and with many of the other names that signed the petition that so exposes how much you are hated. I didn't have to make anything up, it's all quite evident that you have zero support. So, keep hanging out with the Jon Pikes of the world, the Shraga Elams, who you don't seem to mind too much, even if they are against your big personal campaign of boycotting, because they are really only interested in what the two of you are interested in, eliminating the issue of the Jewish lobby by calling anyone who mentions it anti-Semite. You are the key advocates of the very idea Julius seems to express, Tony, (misreading Gilad's paper doesn't surprise me, he hardly is a fan, but proves that YOU are!) is that the "new Anti-Semitism" is the obsession of the left that does not know how to deal with losing the dominance in the political discourse because Palestinians and Arab nationalists are raising their heads up again after too long of a time being laughed at or put down.

You can indeed laugh at or scoff at Arab nationalism. Don't give me your silly history lessons, because it is obvious you have no idea of what it is or what it entails.

One last thing. You seem to leave the word "only" out. I claim that Israel is not "only" colonialism, but much more.

But, as I said before, when you are not busy lying, you are busy distorting. Try to be ethical and intellectual for once in your life. I know it might be above you, but just try..

All else fails, you can namedrop and then you can call those who you assume are less intelligent than you chauffeurs. Very charming and very Socialist of you.

joe90 said...

I still can't make out where mary's comments begin and end - there's nothing to signify if, and where, this Adib's supposed personel communication to typhoid mary ends.

Anyway,
I am not going to bother with your idiocy, as many of my friends told me, and I agree, that communicating anything with you two is like trying to get a stone to think...
- Mary continues to undermine herself by not doing what she says she is doing, by leaving,

I must have missed it, but where are these brilliant arguments that you have received as personal communications mary, regarding the history and development of Palestinian nationalism, of which you know nothing about?

In my own humble opinion, popularity and celebrity (ie quantity) is never a substitute for quality -
- Just look at the quantity produced by western corporate news media versus the quality of its journalism.
- Or atmon's psuedo-intellectual wafflings which can be summarised accurately and concisiely as 'all Jews are zionists'.
- Or typhoid mary's wafflings about Palestinian nationalism, which are rehashed nineteenth century romanticist warblings with overtones of zionist/nazi 'blood and soil' racist junk.


..eliminating the issue of the Jewish lobby by calling anyone who mentions it anti-Semite.
As I said before,
don't trust typhoid mary to represent other people's points of view properly.
If she is claiming this about myself then she is obviously lying.
Claiming, as rizzo and atzmon do, that nazi extermination/death camps existed because the victims of the nazis were unpopular, is antisemitic and has nothing to do with Palestinian solidarity.
Typhoid mary is claiming only those who don't want the 'Jewish lobby discussed' would ever find such comments nasty, foul and racist.
If disseminating neo-nazi propaganda using the Palestinian solidarity movement as vehicle is valid then mary can oblige me by answering a straightforward question
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

As usual though, typhoid mary confuses Judaism with zionism by positing the existence of some nebulous body she calls the 'Jewish lobby', rather than the more substantial and positively existing 'zionist lobby'.
This is rizzo and atzmon's one and only reason for existence - to confuse, conflate, elide 'zionism' and 'Judaism'.


As I said,
typhoid mary is anathema, and a carrier of a racist antisemtic plague virus, in movement devoted to solidarity.

Rather than argue her own case, on its own merits, she uses Palestinians as human shields and sandbags to hide behind.

Any personal material typhoid mary posts I'll treat merely as her own, personally sorted, reflecting her own views - why she needs to hide behind Palestinians, rather than standing up for them, is because typhoid mary has an agenda which doesn't belong in a solidarity campaign.
Editing the personal views of individual Palestinians to suit one's own agenda is, of course, gatekeeping - a charge fabulist antisemites like mary are only too eager to accuse others of, as part of her solidarity activities (don't laugh!).

Notice there is no discussion whatsoever about these top-flight (US) Palestinian academics I have mentioned above, whom I discovered while searching for material on Rashid Khalidi.
Here is the A-Z list of authors
'Palestine-Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture'-
Authors

There are many authors blogs typhoid mary - and I know you are the darling of the electronic world of communication, so please go along and tell them all where they are all going wrong.
Maybe even these Palestinian human shields you continually dig up from somehwhere, might want to go and tell these academics they've got it all wrong too.

Typhoid mary could maybe keep us all posted, and in stitches, about her progress with these world class Palestinian academics.

ps
I'll make a prediction that typhoid mary won't go near bona fide world-class Palestinian scholars because -
- they aren't antisemitic
- and because they've taken the time to study the facts of the case, such is their care and concern for Palestinians themselves.

Unlike rizzo-atzmon who only care about hating Jews and about their own egos.

Master McGrath said...

Joe, you're Scottish. I assume you have an encyclopedic knowledge of the croft burnings in 19th Century Sutherland... as does the your bank manager and the guy that empties your bins. Bet you all speak fluent Gaelic too and can do a mean sword dance?

How much more (racially) patronising can it get!

But, lord help us, Rizzo has just managed to genetically splice Hitler and Jung into one hideous race/intellect monster.

Just about the stupidest argument she has posed yet.

Does it need anymore dismissing than that?

Master McGrath said...

Oh, and in case anyone missed it:

Progressive thinking people judge people's ineptitude by their fundamental errors, not by their ethnicity, or colour of skin.

Rizzo seems to think we should consider everyone that isn't white a genius... are they also "colourful", with "a marvelous sense of humour" and "naturally musical"?

peacepalestine said...

this is the insane asylum where you make up all kinds of insults without any backing. We've got to do a case study, so keep dishing it out.

Oh, Joe, who wrote what is clearly posted. If you have trouble reading it, this is not a problem of mine.

goodwin sands said...

For the hell of it went to Rizzos new blog and noted that Wordpress had automatically linked it to that blog about Atzmon getting no-platformed by Indymedia UK. When I pointed that out to Rizzo she naturally deleted my post.

So months and months afterward Mary still hasnt had the spine to mention on her blog that after all their sabre rattling and podium thwacking they lost their great Indymedia battle.

Maybe Indymedia UK has gone Zionist Mary?

This is life at Marys blog. Post that there were no Nazi gas chambers, shell leave it up. Post that Atzmon is no longer on Indymedia because Indymedia refused to simply post his stuff and she'll knock it off the site immediately. Mustnt educate the Rizzo readers, because what do you get when you educate a Rizzo reader? An exRizzo reader.

peacepalestine said...

Didnt' delete it, GS. I didn't even post it. I don't accept comments from fake email addresses, so the problem is yours.

But naturally, someone commenting on my blog that the Nakba didn't happen or that Arabs are terrorists, which are other comments that are up there, don't seem to bother any of you in the slightest. In fact, it's not about Palestinians for any of you at all. But this is no secret.

And what is the most interesting point is, you all claim to be such anti-fascists and big Nazi fighters when I know that I am the only one who ever put my money where my mouth was and had a real Nazi criminal extradited. None of your idiotic going on and on about how upright you are, but you have not had anything whatsoever to do with any kind of justice for real victims. You are more interested in silencing those who are talking about today's victims, because it reflects badly on any actual efforts you (don't) make.

It is all of you who have turned it into a fest of smears and personal mudslinging, and this is something that most people are quite aware of and no longer tolerate.

goodwin sands said...

And bla bla bla toot toot toot goes the Merry Rizzo yet still not the slightest acknowledgement from you here there or anywhere that Atzmon lost the Indymedia UK fight.

Indymedia decided to put Atzmons posts in a little red box with a warning label - as is well deserved - and Atzmon couldnt take the slight.

Master McGrath said...

Wow! The Ego has landed. Mary Rizzo the Simon Wiesenthal of PSM.

And why do we hate her? Jealousy of course.

Yes...

goodwin sands said...

Yes its rather amazing isnt it.

She says 'I am the only one who ever put my money where my mouth was and had a real Nazi criminal extradited' and yet nothing about how she has utterly undone that work by turning about and defending Holocaust deniers like Eisen, a man who would lie away those very same Nazi crimes.

Go to Marys blog and you cant read three threads in a row without comments from Holocaust deniers, lies she is more than willing to have on her site and always finds some excuse to prevent from deleting even after she knows theyre there. It absolutely undoes any claim she tries to make on having the moral high ground on Nazis when their anti-Semitic progeny are so plainly welcome under her wing.

goodwin sands said...

I suppose the more relevant question to ask is 'just how many ex-Nazis does Rizzo imagine came to England after the war rather than fleeing to Italy anyway'. Yes I imagine the UK would easily have been the destination of choice of war criminals legging it away from the ruined Reich.

Another question of course would be 'O mighty Zeus why is your thunderbolt so bright and Mary Rizzo so dim'.

joe90 said...

Mary Rizzo the Simon Wiesenthal of PSM.
You got it master mcgrath!

A former nazi don't forget - some pathetic criminal has-been, who is on the run and is no danger to anyone. An easy target for those who want to puff themselves up into some kind of great hero and standard bearer of civilsed values. Just like the UK, US and Israeli governments who use their supposed abhorance of nazism to prove their sterling unblemished credentials, don't forget.

Typhoid mary seems only to be objecting to the fact of nazis being on the run. She does sympathise with the plight of nazis however, when faced with people as unpopular as Hitler's victims were.

Maybe when typhoid mary is telling everybody what brilliant nazi-hunter she is, she can also tell people that these self-same nazis were left with no alternatives when faced with such obvious upopular victims as theirs.

In atzmon's latest gilado-centric dire attempt to equate Judaism and all Jewish People with zionism and the crimes of the Israeli goverment,
Deconstructing A Zionist: Anthony Julius
the atzmonic one seems rather pissed-off at Julius and his sterling courtroom performance against David Irving -
Anthony Julius is a prominent British lawyer and academic, best known for his actions on behalf of academic Nazi hunter Deborah Lipstadt. It was Julius who perpetrated the destruction of history revisionist David Irving’s career.

ps
howdy-doody goodwin sands!

It's good to meet your good self again!

And your right GS
typhoid mary never intervenes to question obvious neo-nazi propaganda posted on her antisemitic sewer of a blog 'pissonpalestine', in the same way she would with zionists -
- it's what's called gatekeeping

Master McGrath said...

Read 3 paragraphs of Atzmon's latest word-fart. Usual dogrell, usual poor command of English semantics and lexis (doesn't seem to know the different 'cases' of the word politics- i.e. it doesn't HAVE to involve partisan ideology) and contains one embarrassing factual error. Which I won't report- fuck him, let him look the fool he is.

From all I could be bothered stumbling through: a hatchet job on the guy that snapped a holocaust denier like a twig. Though endorsing the author's Zionist views on anti-Zionist Jews- surprise!

I wonder what motive an Eisen fan could have for writing this up?

Tony Greenstein said...

The term 'raghead' is a racist insult that papers like the British Sun have used to describe Arabs and Palestinians. It is no surprise that Mary Rizzo, who talks about Jewish Power and Jewish interests should also adopt the language of the anti-Arab racists (as well as the anti-Semites).

I intend to do a response to Atzmon's tribute to Anthony Julius because this is yet another demonstration that despite his 'anti-Zionism' at heart he is both a Zionist (& an anti-Semite of course).

Tony G

I believe in treating Palestinians as human beings and if I find that there are fools and errand boys for anti-Semites, whether witting or unwitting, then I will say that. I will not flatter people, whether they are Jewish, Catholic, Palestinians or British. Mary sees her main role in life these days as to try and get individual Palestinians and Arabs to give her and the anti-Semitic supporters of the Palestinians backing. I don't. Just tell the truth. So when Mary says that I have told Adib S. Kawar that Britain liberated the Palestinians then that IS a lie. I have said no such thing. British imperialism facilitated Zionist settlement and when the Zionists were strong enough they forced the British out too.

To Adib I will simply say this. Your history studies have clearly not been very productive. But if were to study the history of Zionism and I can send you some stuff if it's not available, or you can read some of my articles on the Cork PSC database that one of Atzmon's friends tried to deface earlier in the year, you will see that historically there were no better friends of the Zionists than anti-Semites. The latter said get out and go to Palestine and the Zionists said yes, were happy to do that. Hence why, when Atzmon criticises the anti-Zionist Bund, which opposed emigration to Palestine and says the Zionists are right, as he has done again with the Anthony Julius article, then I say quite bluntly to you Adib, that you are doing the work of the Zionists. I will assume that up till now you have done it from ignorance, but if you still wish to associate with Atzmon and Rizzo then you are no different from Jewish quislings like Chaim Rumkowski, head of the Judenrat in Lodz. Except that you are of course would be a Palestinian quisling.

joe90 said...

Though endorsing the author's Zionist views on anti-Zionist Jews- surprise!
- mister macgrath, you have a wonderful facility for conciseness, I've noticed.
It would have taken me at least two clunky sentences, and a few days thought to even come up with that observation.

And as Tony Greenstein previously noted,
instead of typhoid Mary Rizzo standing up for Palestinians, she gets them to stand up for her - that's her idea of solidarity.

Master McGrath said...

Joe. Well to be fair Atmzon does paddle monomaniacally in the shallow end of the meme pool. He only ever has the one statement: all Jews are Zionists and the Nazis were/are right.

Rizzo's MO is equally as easy to summarise: Call everyone that outwits you a liar; call everyone who notes your racism a Zionist. Deflect; deny; project

You get more humour mileage out of her though, on account of her pompous preening and half-witted DIY encyclopedia.

goodwin sands said...

By the way, I resubmitted the comment to Marys blog, this time with a real email address, and she still failed to post it, putting the lie to her claim that it was an issue of email addresses.

Rather she simply doesnt want to admit the fact that after all their stomping about and storming about (and Stürmering about) Atzmon lost his Indymedia battle.

Of course by refusing to post my comment she also puts the lie to the suggestion that the Holocaust denial comments that appear with such regularity on her blog are somehow beyond her control and the responsibility for their being on her site does not come right down on her head.

Will Mary ever allow a post on her blog to acknowledge that Atzmon lost the Indymedia battle? Very unlikely, her denial is too allpervasive.

And hello Joe. Apparently the proper response to 'howdy doody' is 'Kowabonga'

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cowabunga?rdfrom=Cowabunga&redirect=no

Greg Bacon said...

JA, VE endorse your taking down any blogs you disagree with.

VE can not have legit disccussion on the Israeli ethnic cleansing campaign against the indigenous Palestinians.

That VILL not be allowed.

Only stories which show how the brave and courageous Israelis are fighting against all odds can and must be shown.

And shown again... and again... and again.

Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing shall show that for every Israeli death, over 30 Palestinians are murdered.

JA, VE don not want those dumb Americans to start thinking, Ja, that Vould be a disaster.

JA, VE know what we VANT and VE VILL get it.

Signed

GroupOberFuhrer Anthony

joe90 said...

GroupOberFuhrer Anthony
- It's -

'Oberstgruppenfuhrer'
or
'Obergruppenfuhrer'

- numbskull!

Master McGrath said...

Greg bacon is obviously an idiot since he doesn't realise that this is an actively anti-Zionist site.

joe90 said...

He's obviously
one of mary's little lambs who believes anything she says - never a sound policy.

typhoid mary is now complaining about 'censorship' on the internet -
- I don't know if that is an upgrade of 'gatekeeping' or a downgrade.

She even quotes the likes of John Pilger - never a dull moment with these two antismetic dullards, atzmon-rizzo.

What about Orwell, or better still, Goebbels who complained about being censored as well?

Master McGrath said...

Hey, if kiddyfiddlers can complain about human rights, then anti-Semites complaining about "free speech" is to be expected.