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Wednesday, 19 March 2008

Atzmon & Rizzo's Petition - Signatories are Forged

In recent weeks there has been little else on Mary Rizzo's Peacepalestine blog but a Petition in Support of 2 Outstanding Personalities (Atzmon & Rizzo!). The fact that some 200 odballs have signed a petition in support of racists and anti-Semites is considered more newsworthy than the siege of Gaza for example.

However I've maligned the signatories it seems. The following appeared on Alef, the Academic Left mailing list, from Shraga Elam, an anti-Zionist Israeli historian living in Switzerland.

I learned from Ellen Rohlfs and from Hajo Meyer that they did not sign the petition. Hajo is even very insulted that I could believe that he would sign such a petition. Obviously somebody did it unauthorized on their behalf and Mary can find it out as she has the IP of the sender/s of the supporting mails.

I don’t blame Mary for the fake, although by most of the petitions that I initiated being aware of such problems, we demanded a confirmation of the signature.


Shraga

However people should rest assured. The signatories of Holocaust deniers like Paul Eisen and Wendy Campbell and The Radical Press are genuine, as are the signatories of conspiracy nuts like Jeff Blankfort and the zany academic Oren Ben-Dorr.

120 comments:

joe90 said...

Hiya azvsas,
thanks for the update :)
regarding these two superfluous egos, sorry outstanding personalities.

Just to say,
that I have only really glimpsed the list of 200 signatures (couldn't care less really) on this latest 'petition' from the gruesome twosome, and know for a fact, there are some decent folk on it and I wouldn't call these particular individuals 'oddballs'.

Petitions are like that sometimes, but especially this one, with its woolly-headed and highly embarrassing references to outstanding personalities - people sign for allsorts of reasons sometimes.

To be fair, Rizzo is bravely claiming the petition is the work of Palestinians.

What's preventing Atzmon and Rizzo from pulling the plug on it, as it is all about them really, I don't know. They could always edit themselves out of it and leave just the Gaza bit by itself, but that would be defeating the purpose as far as their egos are concerned.

Rizzo and Atzmon ran a previous petition before this latest pile of hilarious rubbish. I've always wondered what happened to it?

all the best!

thecutter said...

lies:
http://list.haifa.ac.il/mailman/private/alef/2008-March/012767.html

read it and weep.

Your lies will get you nowhere.

Your tiny reputation is tarnished still further by your disseminating lies without fact checking. The lie that Gaza has been ignored is a monster, but read the Alef for the Signatories Lies.
Apology?

ahahaha, I don't expect one from sleazeballs like you, and of course you will delete this because you don't want others to know the truth!

joe90 said...

Mary Rizzo (aka athecutter),
how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

See Commnent 72 on the following thread -
Tony Greenstein sues Atzmon for libel
Socialist Unity
10 Mar 2008

Simple enough question to answer I would have thought - especially if you actually care about the welfare of Palestinians, rather than the welfare of the racist Tel Aviv regime.

thecutter said...

Joe, if Tony lies about this, why do you think he wouldn't lie about anything and everything else?

Think about it!

What do you make of the fact that Tony writes and disseminates the lies that the signatures were forged when they obviously were not??

does that not turn a little lightbulb on for you?

Stick to the topic, because this is the thread.

joe90 said...

So the welfare of Palestinians isn't the priority whenever you say it isn't - that's a strange way of prioritising their welfare.

It makes me think you're only interested in your own welfare, not theirs.

After all, what could be more important than making sure Palestinians are being used as a vehicle for people to peddle their own agendas of anti-Jewish race-hate, and the like.

My question is simple enough and easy to understand.

I mean, if you can understand Oren Ben-Dor's knee-slapping hilarious waffle then mine's should be a piece of cake.

Mary Rizzo,
how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

Tony Greenstein said...

It wasn't me who exposed the 2 signatures as forgeries and fakes. It was Shraga Elam. I merely reported it.

The 'petition' is so ludicrous it is just embarrassing. Your finger prints are all over it. You proudly boasted about there even being a holocaust survivor on it, now what happens? It turns out he didn't sign it.

It did mention Gaza, as an afterthought, which in retrospect was quite kind. Is this what Palestinian solidarity comes down to? Supporting Atzmon & Rizzo who wish to racialise and set back their struggle?

Face it Mary. It was a ludicrous idea and gets more ludicrous every time you open your mouth. But no, I won't delete your comments as long as they are not abusive and stick to the subject rather than ad hominem.

But it would be interesting to know what you are doing to support the Palestinians rather than what you are trying to get them to do to support you.

thecutter said...

"interesting to know what I am doing for Palestinians"

Tony, you are a riot!

Anyway, you got WRONG information: i.e., LIES. You spread it and won't amend it.

This tells us all we need to know about you.

The problem is, I never Justify the Holocaust, both of you know it, but it is easier to do this smearing sing-song because you lie that I made the petition, that I FAKED signatures or that signatures were forged and now ever SHRAGA has to admit they weren't, and you don't rectify it.

This is just pandering in lies.

So, why should anyone trust or believe ANYTHING you say?

You prefer lies.

This is why NO Palestinian trusts you, except the one you found who lied about Gilad and "royalties".

Face it, facts scare you, so you go with a lie as if it were truth.

This is sick, Tony, and Joe goes along with your delirium.

thecutter said...

But it would be interesting to know what you are doing to support the Palestinians rather than what you are trying to get them to do to support you.

Amusing, but I actually like this tack. Is this a challenge? Let's have your list first, then I'll show you mine.

Make sure you leave no article out! Or any other action activity. Don't forget to mention trying to close one of the most popular blogs on Palestine while leaving Zionist ones active. Don't forget calling Palestians non-entities. They call you a Zionist night dog, so I suppose you have a right to think that way of them.

And don't forget to remember that no names were forged and you still leave this false post up knowing it is false!!! Good job! People know you can be trusted to understand the truth. (All for the Palestinian people, of course).

joe90 said...

Mary Rizzo says,
But it would be interesting to know what you are doing to support the Palestinians rather than what you are trying to get them to do to support you.


OK Mary
how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

thecutter said...

BREAKING NEWS!! Letter from Hajo Meyer:

To all of you who are spectators in this circus of insanity,



the text below starting with ‘dear friends’ is fully mine. I wrote it and I send it to Adib S. Kawar of Palestinesomoud. I signed the petition which you find attached. It was sent to me by my friend Guenter Schenk. There is not one word in it which I regret. When you find my name under any other text, that can only be stolen or faked.

Hajo G. Meyer

Dear friends,

For me, as a survivor of 10 month of Auschwitz, one thing is clear, there is a fundamental flaw

in Zionism. At least in the form in which it expresses itself in political reality. It has not accepted one of the fundamental truths of the Enlightenment: the essential and fundamental equivalence of all human beings.

Therefore, due to this fundamental flaw, political Zionism in its present form will eventually perish.

Unfortunately, you the Palestinians will have to mobilise a lot of somoud. So far, you have been able

to show that you can do it. Don’t despair, the enlightened world is with you.



Dr Hajo G. Meyer, Heiloo, the Netherlands

thecutter said...

Since Socialist Unity moved in ten seconds after I posted because they want to say it is boring to point out that Tony is a liar and manipulator of truth and fact, but REALLY don't want anyone to read or comment on it, I am posting it here, for Tony's sole readers Joe90 and Charlie Pottins. Hope you can respond as decency requires. (Meantime, Gaza seige is on, and Tony opens a blog only to smear Gilad! attempts to sue Gilad and tries to pull my blog and only writes defamatory articles about us... yes, this is the sum total of his work. The Gazans thank you for your heroic efforts.)

To any still awake. Tony Greenstein and his cohort, the “don’t boycott Israel! Norman Finkelstein took The Holocaust Industry from me”, etc, Shraga Elam have done it again. Not satisfied with having spread fake info from a Holocaust Revisionist site in efforts to smear Atzmon (and they have the gall to ask ME how I spend my time), have been smearing and insinuating here and other places that signatures on the petition in favour of Gilad and my rights to free speech and against ad hominem campaigns directed at us are faked and forged.

It is untrue and they knew this for days. Yet, no matter how one demonstrates the signatures were authentic, Shraga and Tony won’t have it! How could anyone have signed something they disagree with! If they did, they are nonentities, racists, harumph harumph on and on…

The two signatures were indeed authentic. Due to incredible pressure, Ms Rohlfs asked to have her name taken off because she doesn’t want the trouble Shraga will make sure comes her way. Hajo Meyer, on the other hand, not only said, yes, it is mine after at least 10 spam mails to all the universe that Shraga knows insinuating that it could NOT be true, that he promised he would take his name off…. Uh, yes, after all of that, not only did Mr Meyer sign, but he sent this:

To all of you who are spectators in this circus of insanity,

the text below starting with ‘dear friends’ is fully mine. I wrote it and I send it to Adib S. Kawar of Palestinesomoud. I signed the petition which you find attached. It was sent to me by my friend Guenter Schenk. There is not one word in it which I regret. When you find my name under any other text, that can only be stolen or faked.

Hajo G. Meyer

Dear friends,

For me, as a survivor of 10 month of Auschwitz, one thing is clear, there is a fundamental flaw

in Zionism. At least in the form in which it expresses itself in political reality. It has not accepted one of the fundamental truths of the Enlightenment: the essential and fundamental equivalence of all human beings.

Therefore, due to this fundamental flaw, political Zionism in its present form will eventually perish.

Unfortunately, you the Palestinians will have to mobilise a lot of somoud. So far, you have been able

to show that you can do it. Don’t despair, the enlightened world is with you.

Dr Hajo G. Meyer, Heiloo, the Netherlands

So, Tony (besides being a rumour mill and a fake himself, lies like mad and will continue to justify this and not correct it.)

as to the pressure on Ms. Rohlfs, read this: It has been circulating on all the German anti-Zionist activist and anti imperialist lists.

Shraga Elam recruits the notorious Neocon and Islamophobic Henryk M. Broder to pressure an 80 year old activist….

If we want to know what pressure is really about and how the gatekeepers use the worst sort of scare tactics just read the following:

Once Shraga Elam found names of two people he knows and believes he can influence on a petition **in support of Gilad Atzmon and Mary Rizzo, he sent them a smear letter with the lovely title that Mary Rizzo is a Judeophobe, connecting her to sites she does not write for, circulate or have anything to do with and suggesting the petition they signed was in support of anti-Semitic sites. Then in order to achieve the necessary results, Elam pulls in Henryk M. Broder, the notorious ultra-Zionist neocon so Ellen Rohlfs, an 80 year old activist translator who lives in Germany, surrenders to his demands. Here are Shraga Elam’s words; ” I told her (Rohlfs) that such things might be very harmful if discovered by Broder and his fans, who are looking with a microscope for a pretext to attack peace activists. I mentioned the mean campaign led at the moment against the German journalist Ludwig Watzal by Broder and his gang, accusing him of being allegedly “Anti-Semite”. She asked what she could do and I said that she can withdraw her signature.”

For those who do not realise it yet, Elam the crypto-Zionist is acting as an ethnic campaigner and using tactics that are no different than those he is using, insinuation, misleading information and pressure to fear affiliation and claims that there will be something horrible to expect if she does not do as he thinks best (no pressure, he claims…) and actually does mount pressure on an elderly Palestinian solidarity activist. Elam is disgrace.

Comment by thecutter — 20 March, 2008 @ 7:46 pm

Here are Tony’s lies and accusations. Read them carefully. See if this is the sort of person that can ever be trusted. He does not know what ethical behaviour is, or intellectual or any other sort of honesty? Is he going to wait for rehabilitation acts allow him to engage in this new phase of denial of truth and facts?

Meanwhile it has just been demonstrated that 2 of the signatories on the Petition in Support of 2 Outstanding Personalities (Rizzo & Atzmon) are forged. How many others I wonder?

‘I learned from Ellen Rohlfs and from Hajo Meyer that they did not sign the petition. Hajo is even very insulted that I could believe that he would sign such a petition. Obviously somebody did it unauthorized on their behalf and Mary can find it out as she has the IP of the sender/s of the supporting mails.’

I’m sure Mary could find out but what’s the betting she won’t!!

I missed out that the person who uncovered the faking of signatories on the Petition was Shraga Elam, an anti-Zionist Israeli historian living in Switzerland
***
Lots’a'lies in there from two top campaigners who have non accuracy as their middle names. Care to apologise or write a post admitting your bullshit peddling Greenslime? What’s the betting he won’t!!

Comment by thecutter — 20 March, 2008 @ 9:35 pm

Mary

you are very boring and I am therefore closing this thread.

Comment by Andy Newman — 20 March, 2008 @ 9:36 pm

joe90 said...

To all of you who are spectators in this circus of insanity
- the perfect description of you Mary, I'm afraid, and your racist right-wing lunatic ideas.

Now, as you have so much time and energy to spare on a worthless petition which names you as an outstanding personality, perhaps you could channal some of your frenetic narcissism into answering my very important question, which you have repeatedly ignored,
viz
how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

thecutter said...

Sorry Joe, That was directed at Shraga and his circus.

I am the farthest thing from right wing, and as a matter of fact, the letters I've gotten from those who have been disgusted by Shraga and Tony are piling up at an alarming rate.

Seems your lack of self-analysis and agreeing with Tony even when he spreads lies is one day going to catch up with you too.

why do you do it?

And... what have you done for Palestinians? Since this seems to be the question asked but you would rather go on with some weird fantasy of yours. You are beyond help, Joe. I do feel for you, though. You think you are helping peace by affiliating with a pathological liar.

he will drag you down just as he drags down anyone who gets near him. Good for you! You deserve it!

Again... in the face of facts and truth, Tony chooses LIES because his sole purpose is to destroy those who don't agree with his prejudices.

The petition is authentic and it's been demonstrated. Too bad for you. The signers are authentic, and it's only been in doubt by the idiots like the three of you. Those pressured to take their names off support us and one took the name off for fear of what Shraga would have done to her, the other told Shraga to take a flying fuck and distributed that he stands by every word in the petition, which he forwareded so that there would be NO confusion as to what he read and understood and supports.

That too hard for you and Tony to deal with?

Andy sees the truth making Tony look like an idiotic liar again and says "I'm boring!" and takes the comments off a minute later!

The Nazi shit was distributed by Tony and Shraga, or is your memory so weak? They are the ones who read Adelaide Institute and circulate it! Not me.

" I’m sure Mary could find out but what’s the betting she won’t!! "

I'm sure Tony could find out the truth and deal with it but what's the betting he won't!!"

Never saw a worse bunch of stupid imbeciles as the three of you!

Enjoy your lies.. that's all you deal in.

joe90 said...

I haven't lied about anything.

However, you seem to be claiming now, that you have no memory of Gilad Atzmon writing in an article eventually taken down from UK Indymedia, that Jews were unpopular 65 years ago (I hope this jogs your memory). Indeed, this article is referenced many times on the Blog archive of this site.

So, I have asked you the same question time and again and I'm still waiting for an answer -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

ps
What have I done for the Palestinians?

Well, that's always good question. Putting to one side the fact you are no arbiter on this issue, and if you are what are your qualifications for this job, and who elected you?

Also putting to one side that this is a deliberately divise question itself to ask anyone involved in a movement-campaign such as the one to help Palestinians. It absolutely reeks of show trials, witch-hunts and paranoia.

However, if I did know exactly what was going to help Palestinians, I would already have done it and their situation would have been renedied already.

As I have no supernatural powers to intervene and influence events for the better, I can only go on past human experience, my own knowledge and the help of others. I do what I can with the resources I have available. It may be a great deal it may be nothing at all. I don't know but I try as best I can to help those who can't help themselves.

Above all, if I do anything I try to do no harm - as the Hippocratic oath goes.

And I know for a fact, because its part of the zionists armoury, that spreading antisemitic neo-nazi filth if the quickest and best way to harm Palestinians and their friends.

I also know for a fact that personalising a solidarity campaign-movement is also the quickest and best way to damage a cause, creating factions, disputes, bad feelings and the like.

Producing personalised petitions supporting outstanding personalities who aren't in jail, being threatened with torture, exile or in any way threatened by any group or state, but who are actually leading very comfortable western lifestyles is nothing short of exploitation of other decent people's desires to do good.

As I said to azvsas,
I noticed some decent people I know had put their names to this ridiculous petition (rizzo-atzmon petition no. 2).
azvsas called them all 'oddballs', which is my point here. Such a personalised trivial exercise has good decent people dis-agreeing and dividing over absolutely nothing, worse than nothing.

Anyway Mary, please don't let any of this distract you from answering my question about you exploiting Palestinian suffering, in order to disseminate neo-nazi propaganda.

thecutter said...

which orifice are you talking out of Joe?

The entire thread is a fake because the information Tony has is false.

Is that very difficult for you to understand?

If he can lie about this, he will lie about anything at all.

Talking about divisions? Who made a blog that is just to smear Atzmon? Tony did. That sort of tells you his agenda, which you now also share.

What one does for Pls? That was the question posed to me, and I turned it around.

If you want my answer to your other Q, it was answered on SU, if you simply can't understand the content of it, I'm not going to waste my time and repeat it. Put words in people's mouths and do the other things you do, which is useless and only isolates you from any kind of networking.

If you look at the names on that petition, who asked for the attacks to stop, not for Tony to stop breathing, but he rather increased the attacks and that's all, well, they are fed up with the lot of you.

Honestly, if you could see the letters, you would feel shamed that you got snared in, but you are in thick and that is your problem, not mine.

I hope you go with it to the bitter end, because defending a liar is not easy work. Defending a liar who KNOWS the lies are lies and persists... he is in fact still spamming the lies about the fakes...
Hm, this petition stings him to the core, and rightly so. Many wouldn't go near him for all the money in the world. He is that much of a nemesis.

He did it to himself, and it is his own fault.

He has had chances to adjust his behaviour, and he won't, so as he wrote (quoted now on my blog) If you dig a big enough hole you fall in it. He is down on the bottom, but doesn't even want to claw his way up.

You both deserve the scorn people actually do feel towards you.

The rest of your mishmash is just that. You DO harm, and you don't seem to recognise it. Gilad does good and you try to destroy him. This is something that I think is sick.

You are just as much a liar as the liar you protect. I am sorry I ever felt any affection towards you because you really disgust me now. I am sure the feeling of disgust is mutual. Let me take your posts off my blog otherwise they sully your reputation??

The previous petition was by Atzmon, Rizzo, Harb and Boulos. Got some problems with petitions? I guess so. Why do they get under your skin so much?

And, Outstanding personalities was written by Adib. I was embarassed, but actually, in activist circles, many people do consider us as such and there is nothing you can do about it. The support to Gilad and I is proof of it.

I am still waiting for Tony's counterlist. That will be fun!

joe90 said...

It is apparant you are intent on racialising and personalising a movement-campaign devoted to justice and peace for all.

You claim I am supporting Tony Greenstein's lies but you haven't provided any proof that I have done any such thing.

You claim I'm putting words in your mouth, yet you refuse to answer the simplest of questions regarding your use of racist abuse, which can only harm Palestinians.

You claim it is me who is doing harm to Palestinians -
You DO harm, and you don't seem to recognise it. Gilad does good and you try to destroy him. This is something that I think is sick.

Leaving aside the hyperbole that Gilad is that important and anybody who dares question the great leader's very words is sick and out to destroy him - I think it right and proper to ask questions of people who repeat Nazi propaganda and publicise this pro-Zionist propaganda abroad.

Rather than answer a simple question about you repeating and defending Nazi propaganda, which can only harm Palestinians - you claim that the issue of the importance of using Nazi propaganda to help Palestinians will only be settled by comparing the signatures on your 'petition' with that of Tony Greenstein's.

A more time-wasting, trivial and pointless exercise it would be hard to dream up.

However, it's still a simple enough question Mary -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

ps
please stop using Palestinians as human shields and sandbags to hide your pro-Zionist racism behind.

I can quite understand the relatively weak and defenceless Palestinians not wanting to upset anyone, or to take sides etc, and I don't think they should be required to justify or approve of other people's activities in such a manner.

Picking on poor weak defenceless people in this way is abominable, and is no better than exploitation.

Tony Greenstein said...

It's clear that Ellen Rohlfs and from Hajo Meyer haven't a clue what they signed or even if they signed. Ellen Rohlfs wrote to me to say she hasn't signed anything and from what Hajo posted it is clear he thought it was something else entirely.

Meanwhile Mary wets her knickers about her precious list of 200 being unmasked even further, and that after she had to take The Radical Press off.

Mary wonders why I highlight this when the siege of Gaza goes on, but I didn't. It was Mary Rizzo and fellow racists who decided to get up this absurd 'petition', not to protest Israel's barbarities but the fact I dare to criticise the '2 outstanding personalities'.

And then they get some toerag of an academic from Southampton University to post dense and meaningless waffle, deliberately designed so that noone can understand it.

What have I done? Well I don't like to boast but how about being a founder member of PSC, being the main target of the Union of Jewish Students (whose banning actions Atzmon supports) forming the Labour Committee on Palestine which persuaded the 1982 Labour Party Conference to support a democratic, secular state in Israel/Palestine, never losing a debate with Zionists on Palestine or maybe even persuading Britain's 2nd largest trade union to support Boycott (which her friend Atzmon opposes as 'book burning').

Now where was that list Mary? Oh I know - attack any Jewish anti-Zionist I come across. Yes, well I suppose that is an achievement Mary but how does that help the Palestinians?

Tony Greenstein

azvsas said...

It is also clear that what Hajo Meyer writes has nothing to do with the petition! He opposes Zionism unlike the anti-Semites Atzmon and Rizzo. And in case Mary denies it, what is an 'ethnic activist' other than a Jew?

thecutter said...

Tony Greenstein and Joe Kane,
for the last time, since you seem to be so dense that you continue to disseminate the rumour and lie as if it were true:

Shraga Elam duped you, Greenie. You thought you could get him to do your dealings for you, but what happened? He found out that they both signed. He passed along your weird guilt by association stuff, and they thought they signed something else. Turns out:
1) they both signed.
So, Shraga lied that they were forged and you know it, but you continue to pass it along as if it were true, and if Shraga is not correcting you, you are both farting around with one another.

2) Ellen was pressured to taking her name off because of insinuations by Elam that Broder would use it against her. She is 80 and wrote "I don't want any trouble". IF that is not horrible and doesn't make you quiver, you are sick. She asked Walid and I to take the name off and we did. She wrote both Gilad and I supportive letters where she totally put down Shraga. I sent one of them to others, (Enrique for instance) and they can testify that she said something extremely negative about Shraga's mental state. Ask Enrique if this is true. He will give you the truth, but don't pressure him into showing you the letter, since it was not addressed to him. I would not be pressured by Shraga to put it up, even AFTER Ellen wanted to just drop the issue because she now fears Shraga will sick someone on her. NICE WORK guys!

3) Hajo Meyer also INCLUDED as an attachment (ask Shraga) the exact petition he signed. It is the one that you detest. He said he indeed did read it and stands by everything in it. He said any other signing is a fake, but certainly NOT that one.

4) you know all of this and you continue to lie, as well as insult anyone who thinks what you do is disgusting.

5)Joe, by supporting all of this, you stand by a liar. That is what you need to know. If he lies about this, he lies about anything else he wants. As to disseminating Nazi lit, it is Shraga and Greenslime who do and have done, not me.

Joe, do you know history? Are you suggesting that there was not widespread hatred of Jews in Europe? Read this is you want a kosher view on it.
http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:37RVQQ2geNYJ:www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%2520Word%2520-%25203724.pdf+raul+hilberg+jews+were+hated&hl=it&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=it

I just clicked on the first one that cropped up on a search, Jews, Hatred, Hilberg. So, if you think that admitting that this was indeed an historical fact is racist, then you have severe problems of understanding anything about history!

The rest of Joe's text I'm ignoring, as it's idiotic. Tony's bragging about himself is a riot!

I won't do the same. Tony can ask some of the Palestinians he so despises on my list just what I "do" and I don't do all of it in public for getting praise like he does, so he should just feel ashamed. I'm not so important that I need to brag. Other people might just actually consider Gilad or I outstanding, and if they do, they have their reasons.

No one considers Tony as such though, and this is a fact!

fact-check your stuff now Tony. Ask Enrique if it is indeed true about Ellen and Hajo. See where you and your friend are leading one another on the drive to bring Gilad and me down. So far, you only fail. EVERY single time, and you are being exposed for it too.

You open a blog against up rather than do anything useful. This is worse than Joe doing his usual nothing but suck up to you! PS, remember to tell Joe that Gentile is less offensive than "non-Jew" linguistically.

joe90 said...

Joe, by supporting all of this, you stand by a liar
- I have already asked you for proof of this claim, but no matter, I'll just ask you again to please supply me with it?

The rest of Joe's text I'm ignoring, as it's idiotic.
- Either that, or you are exploiting the suffering of Palestine Mary, in order to disseminate anti-Jewish Nazi propaganda. A charge like this I would go out of my way to disprove, as I care about the plight of the victims of zionism.

So for the umpteenth time Mary -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

joe90 said...

PS, remember to tell Joe that Gentile is less offensive than "non-Jew" linguistically.
- I have never been refered to as a gentile in my life by anyone except you, a disseminator of vile pro-zionist Nazi propaganda.

You claim I am a gentile wiping the backsides of Jews etc etc...

So, given the context of your anti-semitism, you are deliberately and provocatively being racially offensive, especially to someone whom you suspect of association of with anti-zionist Jewish people.

Jew-baiting and being deliberately offensive towards Jewish people is one of the tricks of your great leader gilad. Where he goes so do you, so it isn't surprising you reverting to racial abuse and then claiming you aren't being racist when you get a reaction.

This is a sterotypical reaction of racists, as everyone knows, to plead innocence when their victim accuses them of racist abuse.

Really Mary, you're not fooling anyone. These racist tactics are as old as the hills.

thecutter said...

Jo(k)e, the proof yuo support a liar is that it has been demonstrated on this thread that TG is lying. He knows it and persists. It seems that escapes you.

Number two, you act as if stating that Jews were hated in Europe before the war is Nazi propaganda, and I gave you an interview from Yad Vashem where in about 8 pages the historian says this and only this. So, he's a Nazi propagandist in your book too.

I am not a racist and you know it, but you have to parrot Greenie cuz now you are in thick in his sludge.

That is the long and short of it. To claim I am exploiting Palestinian suffering for some reason shows just how weird and over the edge you have indeed fallen.

Last point: Gentile is only a nasty word in your book! It is a legitimate word that means "non-jew" but it is not in the negative!

Whoever gave you the idea it is racist has steered you up the wrong road and it's time you learned something. It is so impossible that you can stand corrected when you make mistakes? That Tony is a creep is beyond question, and I call him "creep". I don't call him Jewish creep, but he refers to himself with a racial tag. If anyone else did, they would be called a racist. Can't you see how that trick works? You used to be slightly more clever and understand that.

joe90 said...

As you haven't done so,
I'll ask you again to provide proof that I am supporter of lies, whether Tony Greenstein's or anyone elses?


No sorry Mary,
you nor gilad used the evidence of Yad Vashim - you merely repeated unvarnished Nazi propaganda using no sources whatsover. It was not part of anything to do with history, but merely gilad justifying the holocaust and his own seeming antisemitism.

There was no other caveats, nor provisos, to indicate that although Nazi propaganda was being repeated, it wasn't the view of the writer. Indeed, the writer seemd to be trying to popularise the Nazis and antisemitism, rather than trying to explain the facts of history.

Given your low-threshold for what qualifies as antisemitism it seems that not even the Nazis are antismeitic now. I mean if an historian at Vad Yashem quotes the Nazis, then of course, gilad can't be a nazi. Even though gliad quoted no one and was using historical evidence to prove how unpopular the Jews are, even today.

According to this method of handling historical evidence then, not even Himmler or Eichmann could be accused of antisemitism.

These are the standards so redolent of holocaust deniers, neo-nazis and so-called 'historical revisionists'.

How significant that you contuinue to repeat unvarnished Nazi propaganda and say it is the truth, without qualification or amendment.

Why repeat and popularised unvarnished Nazi propaganada except other than to harm Palestinians and anti-Zionists. You know what you are doing and have no excuses for going anywhere near and repeatong pro-zionist propaganda.


To pick me out and continue to label me as a 'gentile' is part of your pure unapologetic unadulterated antisemitic racism.

thecutter said...

Joe. You are just REALLY really stupid then.

Did you bother to read the article from Yad Vashem? If not, then don't give me your idiotic ranting! It went on for pages and pages in what Gilad said in one sentence, and now you are having Gilad's spleed because you simply don't realise that stating this historical fact is not Nazi propaganda!

You are beyond stupid, kid.

Now you are a supporter of his lies because this thread and his comments are pure and simple lies. It is quite uncomplicated.

tony greenstein said...

I wasn't bragging at all. Mary asked me to post what I had done and then she would do likewise. Now she refers the matter to Palestinians, just as she asked them to circulate a 'petition' in support of herself and the other outstanding personality.

It's interesting that Mary seems able to speak so confidently on behalf of Palestinians!

I also note that she is happy quoting Yad Vashem historians, who are the ones that anti-Zionist historians and people like Rudolf Vrba most criticised because of their political use of the Nazi holocaust for Zionist purposes. Once again an example of how her politics elide with that of Zionism.

And of course there was hatred amongst some sections of non-Jewish populations for Jews in Eastern Europe. There was also solidarity with them and many Poles for example paid the price of that solidarity. I recommend that Mary reads (has she ever picked up a book?) the situation reports of the Einsastzgruppen A in the Baltic Republics which say how hard it was, even there, to incite pogroms. It's in Lucy Dawidowcz's Holocaust Reader.

But the Final Solution was engineered not in Eastern Europe but in Nazi Germany, and all the evidence is that not only was anti-Semitism confined to the Nazi Party, but even there the majority of members were not originally anti-Semitic.

A survey by an American sociologist, Theodore Abel in 1934 of Nazi Party members asked what led them to join the Nazi party. 60% didn't even mention anti-Semitism and some specifically disavowed it. This can be found in Norman Cohn's Warrant for Genocide (p.219), the standard book on the origins of the forgery known as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (which Atzmon thinks is genuine or at least true).

So instead of quoting Zionist sources, as is Mary Rizzo's habit, since ideologically that is her touchstone, she might try reading anti-fascist and other literature which demolishes what is essentially the Zionist myth of eternal anti-Semitism.

And although I am loathe to censor anyone, I'd be grateful if Mary could not abuse or call people liars.

Tony G

joe90 said...

Sorry Mary
but I haven't repeated or endorsed lies by anybody and you have yet to provide evidence for your allegation - so I'll ask you again to show me where I have lied?

..you are a supporter of his lies because this thread and his comments are pure and simple lies.
- this isn't proof of my lies, but proof of your paranoia.

I'm sorry Mary,
I missed that piece of supporting evidence of 8 pages, somewhere or other, about inter-war Nazi antisemitic activities.

I know about Nazi inter-war and WWII antisemtic activities. That isn't the issue.

I am accusing you of using and disseminating unvarnished Nazi and neo-Nazi propaganda.

You don't seem to understand that you continually repeating that Nazi propaganda is true makes you a supporter of what the Nazis did to their victims.

Or maybe that's just it. You do actually believe Nazi propaganda and therefore pro-Zionist/anti-Palestinian propaganda.

However, you did say, a long time ago, that atzmon's justifying the holocaust was a matter of textual analysis - but now you've changed your mind. Now you say it has something to do with 8 pages from Yad Vashim.

Which claim are you sticking by?

And how does repeating and disseminating Nazi and pro-Zionist propaganda help rather than harm Palestinians?

thecutter said...

I call liars liars. It's quite simple. You state in this post and in comments that the signatures were forged.

You KNOW it is untrue, but rather than correct it, you persist.

Unable to deal with it in a normal way, you decide to say they didn't know what they were signing.

That too has been demonstrated as untrue, as Mr. Meyer and Ms. Rohlfs BOTH were very aware of it and Mr Meyer does not get intimidated by anyone, and stated not only that he signed it but that he stands by every word within it, and send the attachment to all the people Shraga tried to convince. Another lie of yours. You also attempt to say I was digging for "holocaust survivors" and acting as if I was searching for a "pet". You are a liar and sick. (well, what to expect from someone who calls a distinguished professor a toerag simply because he doesn't support you. You have nasty words for many writers, activists and scholars who don't agree with you. Funny, you sought out the toerag pretty assiduously in the recent past!)

Ms Rohlfs was fooled into thinking Broder was going to attack her, and she asked to avoid the trouble and said she would give her support privately but that her name shouldn't be published. She wrote to me and to Gilad expressing solidarity and telling us her opinion about Shraga. Ask Enrique if it is true or not. Shraga comes off extremely badly. As well, G. Shenck wrote me tellilng me about Hajo's comments. Shraga has really gone off the deep end according to these people and they are disgusted with him. I forwarded Enrique one of the letters if you don't want to believe me. Ask him if this is true! But your best friend Shraga (against the boycott, but that doesn't matter, the fact that Gilad says the Boycott is an issue that merits discussion is far worse than just being against it!) is leading you or you are leading him, from one idiotic campaign where you embarass yourselves to another. Disinformation is what you peddle. Most of us are onto you. But, you can't stand the fact that you are so unpopular. Not because you are a prophet, but because you are a liar. Liars can be called liars in a normal world.

So, you know all of this, and you insist with the lies, that makes you a liar.

Now, don't go preaching to me about sources, mr Quote and circulate Adelaide Institute!

Whatever you are trying to say about my using the YV site to show Kane that the statement that Jews were unpopular in Europe is not Nazi propaganda, it reflected historical truth is just not making any kind of sense.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that you might be wrong? Do you have some kind of mental illness that prevents it, like an allergy to honesty?

Why would you call me a Zionist? I have nothing to do with them, I don't even identify myself as a Jew, although you would because you think racially.

Now, to close this pleasant exchange, you ask what I have done for Palestinians. Since I am not the kind to brag like you do, and since my suggestion was to ask those you are probably harassing already, I will only partially respond. No matter what I say would be twisteed by you.

Aside from the blog, I am the main go-between in Europe for PCAS. I translate or organise their translations for most of their reports or actions. I am organising a visa campaign for seven Gazans. I was the Italian delegate for AIC and Gaza Must Live at the Bruxelles Tribunal. I edit and translate a great deal of writers, many of whom are famous, but non-native English speakers. I circulate the writings of them to hundreds of sites and many are published in newspapers and magazines. I am an active member of Al Awda Italia and have translated most of the Turin Book Fair documents, including a book by two Palestinians that will be presented in a "counter fair". I have created and circulated a an educational project for primary school children in Italy so that they learn about other children in Palestine and I have started a penpal club between schools for kids. Currently, now spreading this to the entire circuit of schools covere by the UNRWA. I am part of GlobalThird Intifada, the Palestinian Platform development network at the moment comprised of 30 Palestinians and three Europeans including myself. I am the organiser of an editorial project that involves 15 Palestinians and myself. I founded and translate for Tlaxcala. I volunteer for Consulta per la fratellanza tra i popoli (translating in court and cultural and linguistic mediation), I am part of the study group of Italian media reporting on the Middle East, I write articles that are published in many sites and magazines. I co-founded a children's newspaper in Nablus for them to learn how to set up a page layout. Is that enough, or shall I continue? so, go on and call me an anti-Semite racist. People who know me know much better than you do. You are totally detached from the world of Palestinians, so it is natural for you to accuse others of the same. It is the projection mechanism.

thecutter said...

Joe, read the link. It states in 8 pages what Gilad says in one sentence.
what's it got to do with your paranoid idea of AS?

Because you must be AS the way you patronise Jewish people all the time. It's the only explanation I can think of for you to have this obsession.

Do you remember the Palestinian people? Or do you just sling their name around when you try to smack me?

Joker. You are a joker!

joe90 said...

I notice Mary
yet again you refuse to quote where I have lied. A simple enough request. If you aren't paranoid it shouldn't be a problem.

I have asked you repeatedly why you continue to support and dissimeninate Nazi propaganda which only hurts Palestinians rather than helps them.

However, because I insist on somebody like you, who claims to be part of the Palestinian solidarity campaign, to explain their using pro-Nazi pro-Zionist propaganda, I am accused of forgeting Palestinians as well as trying to smack you!

Quite extraordinary antics from one of the only two outstanding personality I have ever come across.

Well, it's either these public histrionics - or you answer quite straightforward questions about believing and disseminating pro-Nazi and pro-Zionist propaganda.

Because you must be AS the way you patronise Jewish people all the time
- And I suppose, if I ignored Jewish people all the time, I'd also be antisemitic as well.

Such a racist, even when you think you aren't - the true mark of a racist.

joe90 said...

Yes that's all well and good Mary,
but you repeat and disseminate as the truth, unvarnished raw Nazi propaganda as if it was a fact about history - rather than it being a fact of what Nazis and neo-Nazis claim about history.

In other words, you agree with the Nazis, in other words, you are guilty of spreading pro-Nazi (pro-Zioist) propaganda and are exploiting Palestine suffering in order to do so.

You compound your pro-Nazism/pro-Zionism by using some pro-Zionist historian at Yad Vashim as a source.

So, first you use the Palestinians as human sandbags to try to protect yourself from accusations of antisemitism - and now you are using your dead family members to try to protect yourself.

What is it about pro-Nazi and pro-Zionist propaganda that drive someone to such acts of public debasement of themselves?

There are lots of historical reasons why innocent defenceless people ended up as victims of the Nazis - but repeating Nazi claims about their victims is simply to endorse Nazi crimes.

And I love that 'lets move on' bit. Let's move on from you disseminating Nazi propaganda - move on to where exactly?

Move onto Zionists quoting so-called pro-Palestinians like you openly endorsing the Nazi view of history about their victims!

What big help you 2 outstanding personalities have been for Palestinians. You use Nazi propaganda, endorsed by zionist historians, justifying the ethnic cleansing of historic Palestine.

Pro-Palestinians, like myself, will be smeared as pro-Nazi antisemites by Zionists as part of their efforts to isolate and destroy Palestine and Palestinians.

Whatever life I have it will not involve deliberately putting Palestinians at risk by disseminating pro-Zionist Vad Yashim historians and their anti-Palestinian lies - or dissemniating Nazi propaganda about their victims which Zionism uses to all the more effictively destroy Palestine.

Nor will I stop confronting those racist antisemites exploiting Palestinian suffering in order to peddle their vile racist filth.

ps
I'm still waiting for you quoting my lies Mary - if you can't, you know what that makes you.

Tony Greenstein said...

Mary said that this was a 'petition' from Palestinians in support of her and the other outstanding personality, Gilad Atzmon. Why in that case is she continually trying to rebut the accusation that signatures were either faked or that the signers were misled?

If this were a Palestinian petition then presumably the Palestinians in question, including the collaborator who heads Redress, would have made their own intervention when the integrity of the petition was questioned. The fact that he hasn't suggests it is a Mary/Atzmon written petition which she has got a couple of dupes to head and tricked a couple of 80 year olds to 'sign'.



I got an e-mail from Ellen Rohlfs, in response to a query as to whether she had signed, which said:

'please cancel my mailadresse -- my signing is removed from the petition -- because I don't want to continue this senseless dispute - there are more important issues to do. period . ER'

I assume the signatory has been removed.

The point about stating that Jews in Germany were 'unpopular' is that:
a: it is wrong
b: if it were true so what? What would that explain about racism? Palestinians in Israel are unpopular. Does that justify it? Yet according to Atzmon Israeli Jews should learn the 'meaning' of what happened in Europe in the 1940's. But there is no comparison.

If there is any comparison it is between the Jews of Nazi-occupied Europe and the Palestinians today. Both the victims of racism.

But unfortunately Mary is too thick to understand that his allegation of unpopularity is so clearly and obviously a justification.

Tony G

Tony Greenstein said...

And didn't Mary pick up on my challenge?
'But it would be interesting to know what you are doing to support the Palestinians rather than what you are trying to get them to do to support you.'

So Rizzo said:

'Amusing, but I actually like this tack. Is this a challenge? Let's have your list first, then I'll show you mine.'

So I gave a short list of some of the things I've done and Rizzo backed off. Nothing to say, which is not surprising apart from running a blog that attacks anti-Zionists and introducing anti-Semitism in the Palestinian solidarity movement.

Oh and giving publicity to opponents of the academic boycott. Is there anything else?

Can think of anything.

Tony

Anonymous said...

There is certainly a lot of confusion about Hajo Mayer’s role on all sides, because according to the bizarre definition used by the Atzmonitres, Hajo himself is a zionist!

That is to say, he is a member of the Dutch group Een Ander Joods Geluid - Kritische opvattingen over Israƫl (A different Jewish voice - Critical opinions on Israel), and has frequently spoken for them and contributed to their activities. And according to the twisted logic of Atzmon and Rizzo, all those who identify as Jews in the fight against Zionism and in solidarity with the Palestinians are actually Zionists .

That is why instead of answering the case made out by Tony Greenstein, they claim that they are being witchunted by ‘Zionists’ - the false basis on which they have culled most of the signatures to their ‘petition’.

Now if we were to follow through this bizarre logic, we would have to conclude that the ranks of the ‘Zionists’ include many other known defenders of the Palestinians. For example Ronnie Kasrils, long-standing ANC and South African Communist Party activist and Minister in the South African Government, was a founder and signatory of a statement of South African Jews in support of the Palestinians.

This ‘Zionist’ was obviously playing a devious game when as a leader of the ANC’s armed wing Umkonto we Sizwe, he conducted an armed struggle against the apartheid state at the same time as it was in alliance with Israel!

Another closet ‘Zionist’ according to this loony definition, is Ilan Pappe, who has signed the British statement ‘Alternative Jewish Voices’. Also to be added to the list of Zionists is Israeli militant Michael Warschawski, who was actually jailed by the Israeli state for ‘terrorism’ when his organisation provided facilities to supporters of the PFLP.

Last week a meeting in London at which Warschawski spoke received a telephone message of solidarity from Dr Eyad al-Sarraj of the Gaza Community Mental Health Project and noted human rights activist. Eyad mentioned, among other things, the importance for the Palestinians of Jews speaking out as Jews against Israel’s crimes.

Presumably that makes Eyad a collaborator with Zionism. Will Mary and Gilad ‘expose’ Eyad the way they have ‘exposed’ Tony Greenstein as a ‘Zionist’?

Whose interests are served by this divisive sectarian nonsense? If they were honest, instead of circulating their misleading ‘petition’ which falsely claims that they are being’silenced’ by ‘zionists’, they would come out in their true colours and denounce before the world the likes of Kasrils, Pappe, Warschawski and their Palestinian co-thinkers as Zionists and stooges of Zionism.

After all, these individuals are all far better known than Tony Greenstein, and so far more dangerous in their nefarious Zionist activities. By covering up for them and concentrating their fire on the less well-known Greenstein, are not Rizzo and Atzmon, by their own loony sectarian logic, guilty of shielding prominent Zionists from publicity and exposure?

thecutter said...

tony is a liar because he acts as if I did not "respond" to his challenge. It's all there. Either Tony is wilfully blind or he simply lies thinking others share his madness.

"And didn't Mary pick up on my challenge?
'But it would be interesting to know what you are doing to support the Palestinians rather than what you are trying to get them to do to support you.'

So Rizzo said:

'Amusing, but I actually like this tack. Is this a challenge? Let's have your list first, then I'll show you mine.'

So I gave a short list of some of the things I've done and Rizzo backed off. Nothing to say, which is not surprising apart from running a blog that attacks anti-Zionists and introducing anti-Semitism in the Palestinian solidarity movement."

How's this short list, and believe me, once I hit submit, other recent campaigns and activities with Palestinians came to mind:
Aside from the blog, I am the main go-between in Europe for PCAS. I translate or organise their translations for most of their reports or actions. I am organising a visa campaign for seven Gazans. I was the Italian delegate for AIC and Gaza Must Live at the Bruxelles Tribunal. I edit and translate a great deal of writers, many of whom are famous, but non-native English speakers. I circulate the writings of them to hundreds of sites and many are published in newspapers and magazines. I am an active member of Al Awda Italia and have translated most of the Turin Book Fair documents, including a book by two Palestinians that will be presented in a "counter fair". I have created and circulated a an educational project for primary school children in Italy so that they learn about other children in Palestine and I have started a penpal club between schools for kids. Currently, now spreading this to the entire circuit of schools covere by the UNRWA. I am part of GlobalThird Intifada, the Palestinian Platform development network at the moment comprised of 30 Palestinians and three Europeans including myself. I am the organiser of an editorial project that involves 15 Palestinians and myself. I founded and translate for Tlaxcala. I volunteer for Consulta per la fratellanza tra i popoli (translating in court and cultural and linguistic mediation), I am part of the study group of Italian media reporting on the Middle East, I write articles that are published in many sites and magazines. I co-founded a children's newspaper in Nablus for them to learn how to set up a page layout. Is that enough, or shall I continue? so, go on and call me an anti-Semite racist. People who know me know much better than you do. You are totally detached from the world of Palestinians, so it is natural for you to accuse others of the same. It is the projection mechanism.

Do you remember? Or is lying just more natural for you?

BTW, just got a nice letter from Hajo who told me he broke relations off with Shraga because Shraga now considers him an Anti-Semite. Interesting, isn't it? I had never heard of Hajo before, but interesting, how someone supports truth and is against gatekeeping and ad hominem smearing so much he will go on the side of that rather than be duped and tricked and insulted by an old "friend". He wants to correspond further with me once he returns from the Orient. I am looking forward to it.

Joe is a racist because he accepts your ethnic and racist definition of Jew. As I've said before, my mum, a convert to Christianity, would be considered a Jew by both of you and she would consider both of you fools at the very least. But your insistence that the world accept the ethnic definition of Jews makes both of you followers of the Zionist diktats.

The rest of your bullshit has been addressed, that Tony lies, not too hard to see, Joe, you can stop the denial. But no, go on, go on and believe that the signatories are forged. It shows the depth of your brainwashing. And for what? To repeat the same line again that you think is going to curry you favour with Tony, the "activist" no one wants to touch with a barge pole. That Joe supports a liar and he too is not able to look at facts and the clear incapacity of either of you to understand very simple information and documents is indication of the intellectual honesty of the both of you. I think you will be the only two out there saying that Jews being hated in pre-War and WW2 Germany and much of Europe is only Nazi Propaganda and nothing else.

Time to wake up. But, I am tired of playing with liars. Everyone can see how you've exposed yourselves and it's just amusing. Keep digging! Although no one reads this, it gives me a wealth of material.

joe90 said...

Joe is a racist because he accepts your ethnic and racist definition of Jew.
- Really, I didn't think I had made any pronouncements about who is and isn't Jewish. I leave those sorts of issues to the people concerned.

I didn't know it was racist accepting people's own word about their own faith/ethinicity/nationality etc - I thought that's what everybody done. In fact, I can't even remember discussing this non-issue with anyone at anytime.

Please can I have evidence that I have accepted definitions of race-ethnicity etc, other than my merely accepting on good faith, and at face value, the word of people that they are Jewish, Muslim, Scottish, Arab, Palestinian etc?

As a matter of fact, the only people who I can think of who would consider Jewish converts to Christianity still Jewish, would be Nazis, antisemites and the like. What converts would have to fear from me, I've no idea.

You keep accusing me of being a liar but have yet to produce any evidence, except to say that I am using this comment thread and blog. The fact is Mary, so are you or hadn't you noticed.


Just to remind ourselves, here was Atzmon's initial statement justifying the holocaust -
...the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago.

Mary says -
I think you will be the only two out there saying that Jews being hated in pre-War and WW2 Germany and much of Europe is only Nazi Propaganda and nothing else.

See Comments 172 and 183 on the following thread for a logical refutation to this statement -
Israel Shamir - The ‘Unique & Advanced Thinker’ Behind Gilad Atzmon
Socialist Unity
25 Feb 2008

Mary reckons her relatives were murdered because they were unpopular, and not because they were innocent victims of a ghastly racist totalitarian regime that climbed to power by ruthlessly eliminating democracy and then ruthlessly eliminating anything and everything that opposed them - starting with German Communists as a top prioity.

In fact, Mary's language is quite redolent of the Nazis themselves. Her's is a 'global' statement that cannot possibly be true where experience is concerned. As my Comments 173 and 182 (at SU) prove and which even Mary agrees to, that at least some Jewish people must have been liked, by some people, some of the time...you get the drift.

Even Mary accepts that the her support of the holocaust justifiation statement is logical nonsense, yet however, she still insists at the same time, that it is also true! What more proof would anyone need of her outstanding personality?


Mary's persistence in her holocaust justification is also quite redolent of totalitarian mindsets as well. Despite logic, despite reality, despite the fact her arguments have been blown away - yet she persists in telling us all reality is wrong and we are the liars, not her.

In fact, getting people to justify what they have done for Palestinians also seems to me a bit totalitarian. I suppose if I am judged as not being earnest enough in my endevours I can actually be held to account for crimes against Palestinians. After all, the crimes are still ongoing so there must be something wrong somewhere - cue witch-hunt, sectarian factionalism, cult of the leader, etc etc

Mary Rizzo aka The Cutter said...

tony acts as if I did not "respond" to his challenge. It's all there.

"And didn't Mary pick up on my challenge?
'But it would be interesting to know what you are doing to support the Palestinians rather than what you are trying to get them to do to support you.'

So Rizzo said:

'Amusing, but I actually like this tack. Is this a challenge? Let's have your list first, then I'll show you mine.'

So I gave a short list of some of the things I've done and Rizzo backed off. Nothing to say, which is not surprising apart from running a blog that attacks anti-Zionists and introducing anti-Semitism in the Palestinian solidarity movement."

[So Mary is going to provide a list!!! – I removed her ‘liar comments as I’d already warned her but let the non-abusive stuff stay]

How's this short list, and believe me, once I hit submit, other recent campaigns and activities with Palestinians came to mind:
Aside from the blog, I am the main go-between in Europe for PCAS. I translate or organise their translations for most of their reports or actions. I am organising a visa campaign for seven Gazans. I was the Italian delegate for AIC and Gaza Must Live at the Bruxelles Tribunal. I edit and translate a great deal of writers, many of whom are famous, but non-native English speakers. I circulate the writings of them to hundreds of sites and many are published in newspapers and magazines. I am an active member of Al Awda Italia and have translated most of the Turin Book Fair documents, including a book by two Palestinians that will be presented in a "counter fair". I have created and circulated a an educational project for primary school children in Italy so that they learn about other children in Palestine and I have started a penpal club between schools for kids. Currently, now spreading this to the entire circuit of schools covere by the UNRWA. I am part of GlobalThird Intifada, the Palestinian Platform development network at the moment comprised of 30 Palestinians and three Europeans including myself. I am the organiser of an editorial project that involves 15 Palestinians and myself. I founded and translate for Tlaxcala. I volunteer for Consulta per la fratellanza tra i popoli (translating in court and cultural and linguistic mediation), I am part of the study group of Italian media reporting on the Middle East, I write articles that are published in many sites and magazines. I co-founded a children's newspaper in Nablus for them to learn how to set up a page layout. Is that enough, or shall I continue? so, go on and call me an anti-Semite racist. People who know me know much better than you do. You are totally detached from the world of Palestinians, so it is natural for you to accuse others of the same. It is the projection mechanism.

[In other words, no concrete achievements – nothing by way of winning others not already convinced. Some translation, a few articles that are probably the same anti-Semitic stuff etc!]

BTW, just got a nice letter from Hajo who told me he broke relations off with Shraga because Shraga now considers him an Anti-Semite. Interesting, isn't it? I had never heard of Hajo before, but interesting, how someone supports truth and is against gatekeeping and ad hominem smearing so much he will go on the side of that rather than be duped and tricked and insulted by an old "friend". He wants to correspond further with me once he returns from the Orient. I am looking forward to it.

Joe accepts your ethnic and racist definition of Jew. As I've said before, my mum, a convert to Christianity, would be considered a Jew by both of you and she would consider both of you fools at the very least. But your insistence that the world accept the ethnic definition of Jews makes both of you followers of the Zionist diktats.

The rest of your bullshit has been addressed, not too hard to see, Joe, you can stop the denial. But no, go on, go on and believe that the signatories are forged. It shows the depth of your brainwashing. And for what? To repeat the same line again that you think is going to curry you favour with Tony, the "activist" no one wants to touch with a barge pole. That Joe is not able to look at facts and the clear incapacity of either of you to understand very simple information and documents is indication of the intellectual honesty of the both of you. I think you will be the only two out there saying that Jews being hated in pre-War and WW2 Germany and much of Europe is only Nazi Propaganda and nothing else.

[ok we are the only 2 in Mary’s eyes. Has she ever read anything, such as the stuff I quoted? This is just Zionist stuff. They also say ‘Jews were hated, hence why we emigrated’. It’s not much wonder that Mary has ended up in a pro-Zionist anti-Semitic position]

Time to wake up. Everyone can see how you've exposed yourselves and it's just amusing. Keep digging! Although no one reads this, it gives me a wealth of material.
25 March 2008 08:03


THIS WAS EDITED IN ORDER TO REMOVE THE ABUSE. THE REST OF IT CAN STAND.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
joe90 said...

Joe accepts your ethnic and racist definition of Jew
- I don't think I have as I don't know what it is.

I'm sure Mary can tell me though, as the 'Jews' are one of her favourite topics. One which she constantly and consistently confuses with 'zionist'. In fact, Mary does exactly what zionists themselves do conflating Judaism with zionsim.


I think you will be the only two out there saying that Jews being hated in pre-War and WW2 Germany and much of Europe is only Nazi Propaganda and nothing else.
- Mary's 'Big Lie' argument:-
Even when she herself has acknowledged the logical absurdity of this statement she continues to assert it is true. Mary repeats this piece of Nazi propaganda, again and again in true totalitarian fashion, in the hope that continual repitition will eventually lead to its being accepted as the truth.

The clinching proof of its veracity according to Mary is is that everybody believes it to be true, except one or two strange characters.

So according to Mary, everybody, at all times, everywhere, believes that Jews were hated, all the time, by all people, everywehere during the whole period of the inter-war years and during World War II.

Actually, anyone who believes such a statement can be true sounds like someone who isn't in touch with reality.


Mary's Legal Argument:-
According to her, it is the victim who is to be held accountable for crimes committed against them. Jews recklessly put themselves in harms way by not trying hard enough to curry the favour of rational reasonable enlightened regimes, such as the Nazis.

This is a bit like the rapist argument in reverse, in that the rapist's victim make themselves too popular and are, therefore, asking for it - so the Jews made themselves too unpopular and, therefore, had it coming to them.

Tony Greenstein said...

I was going to delete this comment but instead I think it should be treasured. As the Palestinians of Gaza undergo a starvation siege and the killings continue on the West Bank, this is the contribution of the Rizzo/Atzmon brigade.

In fact it would seem that not only were some signatories forged and faked but others were deceived into signing in support of the '2 outstanding personalities'.

The post below is from Atzmon in his 'anonymous' guise and it really says it all. To paraphrase one of his favourite quotes, he may have left Israel but Israel didn't leave him!

Tony Greenstein

>> Anonymous said...
Liars, thieves, bullies, intimidators, fraudsters, crucifiers, thugs, racists, ethnic tribalists, toy-obsessed chicken eaters.... if you're looking for the cream of this lot, this is the hate site to visit. Be sure to catch them here before the community expels them to Tel Aviv.

26 March 2008 01:29

joe90 said...

Typical Gilad, in all his 'atzmon-ness' -
- the quintessential essence of a third category zionist.

Anonymous said...

I've looked at many blogs in my time, but I've never seen one (until now) where the owner edits other people's comments to include his own attempts to rebut them in the body of the original comment.

This is a new one ... elsewhere people feel free to delete comments they don't like, and/or edit out offensive language. But messing with other people's comments is unbelievable. It's as if the owner is SO afraid of these comments that merely replying to them afterwards is not enough. He has to intersperse his own sneers because he fears putting his own intact arguments side-by-side with his opponent's will expose his own inferiority.

joe90 said...

Yes, but on the good side anonymous,
at least this blog doesn't use the vulnerability and weakness of Palestinians or exploit their pain and suffering as a vehicle to spread antisemitic racist poison.

In fact, if you don't care anything about Palestinians then maybe you are at the wrong blog, as this doesn't disseminate pro-zionist antisemitism - quite the opposite in fact, as its title implies.

Anonymous said...

Problem is, if you can stoop to editing people's original comments, why should anyone believe what you say about anti-semitism or anything else.

Also love the way I am accused of racism for my observation. Are you a machine programmed to accuse people of racism irrespective of what they say? Nothing in my post signfied agreement or disagreement with the content of either side. Its enough to criticise the practice of editing people's posts to be called a racist.

That's logic for you!

joe90 said...

Problem is
you can see what and what isn't edited - where has there been deliberate distortions or untruths fabricated by Tony Greenstein?

Speaking of arguments, where's yours or isn't that one of your strong points?

If Tony Greenstein or anybody else's arguments are unsound then please feel free to tell us all what is wrong with them.

As you seem incapable of refuting any arguments put so far, this must mean they must be true otherwise you would have said so, isn't that right?

I also love the way
you accuse me of accusing you of racism. Obviously you are a machine programmed to accuse people using non-existent evidence.

Notice the use of my "if" - "then" which makes my statement conditional on certain criteria being met in order to make that statement a true statement.

Following actual real logic, you can now see that nothing in my post signified you as a racist - only your lack of anything worthwhile, substantial or coherent to say led you to make a false statement and assert otherwise.

It's enough to be a pointless, time-wasting non-entity, fishing for excuses to complain about to be so called.

That's actual real logic for you - not to be confused with your illogical illiterate rubbish.

Anonymous said...

I love the way this Joe character sputters and wriggles when people point out how bizarre his finger-pointing is. Keep it up - this kind of contribution will do wonders for the readership of this blog. People will flock to sample your powers of persuasion and reasoned argument. Maybe anyway;-)

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
joe90 said...

..this Joe character sputters and wriggles when people point out how bizarre his finger-pointing is
- Pointing out your illiterate trash is a bit bizarre, as it's right there in front of everybody, and yet you yourself can't bring yourself to see or believe it (seemingly maybe).


He would never bother to comment here.
- Spoken like a true acolyte of the Great Leader!
Anticipating the Great leader's every thought and wish - a true follower indeed.

I see your litany of complaints has moved on from criticising the editing of comments - to moaning about your comments being deleted, which seems to be no bad thing if their contents were anything like the contents of your latest dismal efforts.

However, the illogical dross of anonymous has been saved from the fate it deserved, and posterity unfortunately will be have to face up to a grim future as they...
...will soon be published on another blog specialising in revealing the distortion of the truth by gatekeepers who only publish comments which fit with their agenda - what they want people to believe.
- Poor us! Mere empty vessels, being forced to live all this time in a world of illusion created by the all-powerful, all-knowing, secret society of 'gatekeepers'. Unlike our self-proclaimed truth-specialist 'anonymous' who claims to see truth unalloyed - but who can't seem to string together the simplest logically coherent argument or read what is in front of them.

Secretive 'anonymous' wants us to believe that the deleted 95% of their comments were just as good as their current little collection of ego-driven twaddle. If that is the case then I can't wait to read more of the same, honestly.


The word gatekeepers is code for people not interested in joining in popularity competitions where weak defenceless Palestinians get the chance to tell Gilad and Mary how super and wonderful they are.

Fortunately, most concerned caring people are interested in solidarity, not popularity.
They're interested in the victims - not in promoting their own egos and celebrity status amongst people who are already active in the Palestinian solidarity campaign/movement anyway.
They aren't interested in preying on traumatised victims in order to promote their own empty personality and trivial desire to be 'liked'.

Tony Greenstein said...

As Anonymous says, most of his posts get deleted and this was no exception. Anonymous is Google's option, not mine. I prefer people to give their names or at least some form of ID and when they become racist, as Anonymous did, I delete them.

In fact if Anon. doesn't have the basic honesty to use his/her own name or some identifier then any future comments will be automatically deleted.

And if it talks like a duck and walks like one the chances are that it is one and Anonymous sounds awfully like Atzmon!!

Rizzo proudly displays her 'achievements' but none of them have had any political effect. That of course is fine if she didn't stop advertising herself as the best thing since humus was invented. She is a blogger. Fine. Translates a bit and writes the odd crappy article. Ok, she can't be blamed for not being particularly gifted upstairs, but when she allows her site to become infested by anti-Semites and she adds her own quintissential stupidity and Jew baiting then it's time to speak out and say that a spade is a spade.

Whilst I was dealing with Zionists on the Guardian site this week and helping to build a demonstration against the Royal Family's hosting of the JNF all Rizzo can do is splutter venom at Jewish anti-Zionsits. Fine, but I think Palestinians are wising up to what Atzmon and Rizzo are about.

E.g. Ismail Zayid has recently written: Dear Henry:
Thank you for enlightening me about the background to this petition.

My understanding was that in support of free speech in support of the Palestine cause and the freedom to express criticism of Zionism and israeli practices.'

When people are enlightened they tend to want to have nothing to do with it. Not surprising since it is just a plea by the anti-Semites to stop criticising them.

Sorry Mary, we owe it to Palestinians not to let up on racists.

Tony G



Thank you again.



Ismail

joe90 said...

I have a feeling that the 'annoymous' guest is actually a zionist internet stalker who usually goes by the handle of c.'ibrahim av'.

'anonymous' refers to pornography, which this particularly unspeakable zionist is famous for using as their homepage - and also called me 'haggis-breath' which only this most obnoxious and repellant of creatures has ever called me.

All that and the fact that their comments are hopeless - nobody that cares for Palestine makes comments as poor as them that I know of, whilst remaining anonymous.

Most people I know are extremely proud to be known and to be associated with Palestine and the cause of freedom, peace and justice for all.

However, I don't mind using zionists sometimes, as a peg to hang important points on.

Which reminds me - I think the blog owner deleted a comment of mine as well - oh well, no worries. There is new Tony Greenstein article to look forward to reading tomorrow!

all the best azvsas!

thecutter said...

Joe and Tony, let's talk about Palestinians:

Why does a Palestinian people exist? Because Zionism, in its attempts to create a new Jewish nation in fact created its very opposite, the Palestinians. They were the group subjugated and expelled. Before the Zionists came there was no Palestinian nation and there was no group who claimed such a title. That is one of the ironies of Zionism.

joe90 said...

You remove the fact that I mention that you lie and that Joe supports you
- From your very first comment on this thread Mary it is quite clear you are blaming others of telling lies - so this is just a blatanet lie. Why you would make such a blatently false claim is bizzare.

And for the umpteenth time on this thread - I will ask you yet again to quote me the lies you say I am guilty of. If you can't then you are a liar.

You have also claimed that merely by my sharing a comment thread with others, I can be held accountable for their views - what a load of utter bizzare gibberish.


And we are back to Mary's
'But Let's Move On' argument again -
- Lets move on and take no notice of her antisemitism and pro-zionist activities.
- Her constantly and deliberately equating Jewish People and Judaism with zionism.
- Her belief in the claims made by zionists, and the Israeli Government, that Israel is a Jewish state. This is merely a claim made by zionists and supporters of the Israeli government, so why anyone would want to believe that particular lie alone, out of all the lies spread by zionists, I've no idea.

Judaism and zionism aren't the same and the only people who equate the two are zionists and antisemites.

Zionists for obvious reasons - and antisemites because they like nothing better than giving all Jewish People, everywhere, the blame for crimes committed by the Israeli Government, depsite the fact most Jewish People don't live in Israel and certainly have no say in electing its government.

Why anyone would want to pick and choose which zionist lie to believe, over others, is difficult to fathom apart from the racist motive of equating zionist Israeli crimes with Jewish People and Judaism.

thecutter said...

Lie: Thanks for the update!

Truth:
there has been no update! No signatories (sic) are forged! Tony won't admit it and rather repeats his lies.

Meanwhile, he insinuates things about the uselessness of my activities, about other signatories, and I have received letters by Meyer and Rohlfs putting Shraga to shame and supporting Gilad and I. Update!!!

And "all" is a word you threw in there. I'd be more interested in moving the argument forward, Joe, but you can't. If you won't address my precedent post, this is all I will have to say to you. You are as much a loser as Tony, but 280 ppl haven't yet told you to fuck off!

PS, you didn't know Israel is the Jewish State? What time did you fall to earth?

joe90 said...

You call me a liar Mary,
but refuse to provide the evidence for your accusations so I can defend myself. This sounds a lot like the way the Bush neo-con 'war on terror' is premised.

Anyway, you say Mary -
PS, you didn't know Israel is the Jewish State? What time did you fall to earth?
- Unlike yourself, I don't believe zionist and Israeli goverment propaganda. If I did, I would be an antisemitic zionist like you.

I don't pick and choose what zionist propaganda I want to believe. I prefer to listen to the evidence of all the victims of zionism, Jewish and Palestinian, and then come to some reasonable rational conclusions based on it.

As with your penchant for believing Nazi propaganda about their victims - so you also believe what the zionists and the Israeli government say about their victims.

What other claims made by the Israeli government and their supporters do you belive Mary, or is this just the only one?

thecutter said...

Joe, so Israel is a state for its citizens? since when? You have a lot to learn. But, do the research on your own time.

Why are you so focused on Nazi propaganda anyway? Why this obsession? You are the only person I ever heard who claims there was no hatred of Jews in pre-war Europe. Did you study on our continent or where?

What can you say about the statement I made earlier. Actually Joe, why carry on with a liar and supporter of a liar?

If I have proved that the signatures are all legitimate and Tony still pretends not, that makes him a liar. Is this too all that difficult to get for you?

If you carry on avoiding it, really, I have to see a shrink myself to figure out why I waste time with people that the best activists around said to just ignore for the stupidity and damage that you cause to "our" (yes, OUR Palestinian movement).

joe90 said...

Mary said -
PS, you didn't know Israel is the Jewish State? What time did you fall to earth?
- to which I replied,
that I don't believe zionist propaganda that Israel is a Jewish state,
to which Mary said -
Joe, so Israel is a state for its citizens? since when?

So, Mary is implying that because I don't believe Israeli state propaganda about its Jewish character then I must believe its propaganda about it being a normal liberal democracy, just like any other.

Unlike Mary, who is a true zionist believer, I believe neither of these zionist propaganda claims.

However, Mary herself holds one of these zionist propaganda claims to be the truth, unlike myself.

I'm still waiting of these quotes which will reveal me to be a liar.

Tony Greenstein said...

Instead of accusing others of being 'liars' which is just a form of ritual abuse, Mary would be be better off explaining what her political differences are.

Let us leave to one side the petition. I've already said that Ismail Zayid signed it having been taken in by the assertion that it was concerned about attempts to censor genuine anti-Zionists. If Mary were to contact him, he is I believe Chair of the Canadian Palestinian community, she might find out that he is now of a different opinion.

So reading into her 'petition' that 280 Palestinians (somewhat less since there are plenty of non-Palestinian anti-semites on it) told me to 'fuck off' is again Mary trying to put words into the mouths of Palestinians.

I'm sure Mary's work is very valid but not particularly effective to use a word she and Atzmon uses in relation to the effect of Jewish anti-Zionists. But she has no political impact whereas the work over Boycott did have that effect. That was why the Zionists reacted so strongly whereas what Mary does is of little concern. And let us leave aside the fact that Atzmon openly worked together with that obnoxious Zionist specimen, paying tribute to him as a wonderful ethical fellow and all that stuff.

But Mary asserts that Israel is a Jewish State and Joe says that's what it calls itself but that doesn't make it so.

Yes Israel calls itself a Jewish state but what does that mean? Atzmon certainly says there is something called 'Jewishness' but he has failed to distil this particular substance and isolate it so we can examine it in some detail. The fact is of course that there is no such metaphysical quality of 'Jewishness' not least because Jewish identity, a problem that concerns Atzmon above all others, has been in a constant state of flux historically and never more so than now.

What Zionism means by a 'Jewish' state is an arbitrarily defined ubermenschen, Jews, who have privileges and an untermenschen who don't have those privileges. Being Jewish, however defined by the State and the Rabbinate, means being the select or chosen ones.

But being Jewish is a badge. It could equally well have been Protestants, or Wahabbis or Catholics or Hindus. It happened to be, for historical reasons, Jews. So there is nothing essentially Jewish about a Jewish State. It could have been a Protestant state which did just the same things to the Palestinians. Unless one really believes the war in Ireland was about the essential or religious differences between Protestants and Catholics.

Imperialism and colonialism divides. How it distinguishes between colonised and colonisers, oppressed and oppressor, is a matter of chance and time, nothing more. There is in other words nothng inherent in being jewish that makes one an aggressive racist and oppressor. It's a conjunction of circumstance.

A state doesn't put teffilin on, it doesn't worship in certain ways, it doesn't eat kosher or refrain from work on Saturday. A state enforces the rule of one section at the expense of another. That is why all Atzmon's witterings about 'Jewishness' are just that - vacuous and empty rhetoric.

Now I hope Mary has understood because it is actually quite simple!

Tony G

thecutter said...

Tony and Joe, of course a State doesn't wear teffelin, although the Palestinian people are tangled in Tzitit all the time.

It is the "character" of a state in discussion, who can be its citizens, etc. If both of you believe it is NOT a State of and for the Jewish people, then there is little hope for you to understand anything at all... including the fact that if Tony insists that "Signatories" (sic) are forged and they are NOT, and Joe Kane says "thanks for the update", which means, thanks for spreading this lie and even after it has been demonstrated that it is indeed a lie, and a baldfaced one at that to hide the fact that an enormous number of people consider Tony anathema, whose only answer to the Seige in Gaza is to open a blog against Atzmon (!!!and Tony complains about effective work!!! as if he were the judge of what is good and effective - the height of chutzpah and WHY Palestinians DO NOT want to work with Tony and have said so) well, this is evidence that Joe does support lies. It is just that simple Joe, no need to pull the Gas Chambers into it or propaganda. You simply can't stay on topic, and I don't blame you, because you are just a laughing stock.

If you want to believe that I am illuded about Israel, go ahead, I really don't care!

joe90 said...

...this is evidence that Joe does support lies
- I'm sorry Mary, you seem to have mislaid the quotes where you prove me a liar, again.


If both of you believe it is NOT a State of and for the Jewish people, then there is little hope for you to understand anything at all.
- Mary chooses to believe this zionist lie that Israel is Jewish - but doesn't believe zionist lies about Palestinians, for instance.

Mary also believes neo-Nazi propaganda that the victims of the Nazis were somehow to blame for crimes committed against them (Nazi victims weren't popular enough, apparantly - and presumably were without outstanding personalities either, no doubt).

Mary also believes that the crimes committed by the Israeli government are the collective responsibility of all Jewish People, and of Judaism, purely because the criminal racist Israeli government and its supporters say so.

Mary doesn't believe zionists except when they accuse Jewish folk of crimes committed by the Israeli government. So Mary believes zionist anti-Jewish (ie antisemitic) propaganda just like she believes Nazi anti-Jewish (ie antisemitic) propaganda.

At least you are consistent in your pro-nazi, pro-zionist antisemitism Mary.


..as if he were the judge of what is good and effective
- Just for the record, that was my argument against you Mary.
See my comment above for - 21 March 2008 16:46

You asked me something along the lines of what I had done for Palestine. Later you also said no-one in the Palestinian solidarity movement would miss me if I were to disappear (a charming thought for somebody who claims they are part of a solidarity movement).
I asked you what you're qualifications were that enabled you to be the judge of anyone's worth, and I also asked you who voted you to this position of arbiter.
Naturally, I never got an answer - but how significant you should now adopt, unacknowledged of course (goes without saying), the arguments of those you claim are useless and won't be missed if they were to disappear tomorrow.

ps
and I agree with Tony that the petition is completely mis-represented as, somehow, if you sign it you are supportering two little pro-Palestinian activists being ganged up on by the all-powerful lobby of zionists and their Jewish supporters etc -
- the petition is playing on cliches and people's ignorance of atzmon's consistent jew-baiting pro neo-nazi sympathies.
Not much point talking about mary - just read her comments above - they are consistently woeful, embarrassing even.

Tony Greenstein said...

I should add that Ismail Zayid whom I quoted above is, I believe, Chair of the Canadian Palestine Association and if he was misled into believing that I was some kind of Zionist trying to silence two anti-Zionist activits, then how many other of the not very many signatories anyway were similarly misled?

Of course if you adopt the Atzmon line then of course being Jewish in itself is a Zionist signifier so arguing against Zionism and doing so as someone who is Jewish is in fact a way of reinforcing Zionism! Presumably, therefore, my article on the Guardian CIF attacking the Jewish National Fund was in fact an exercise in supporting Zionism!!

Tony G

Fartypants said...

"In fact if Anon. doesn't have the basic honesty to use his/her own name or some identifier then any future comments will be automatically deleted."

Have you ever thought that more than one person may be posting anonymously? You are so stupid ... if you dont want people to post anonymously, then why is your blog configured to allow anonymous postings?

Change the settings, if you don't. Lecturing anonymous contributors on their terrible behaviour is hypocritical, because you are inviting them to be anonymous.

thecutter said...

We'll see what Ismail really thinks.

Now, Joe, what Zionist propaganda about Palestinians. Quotes please.

And, let's talk about Zionist propaganda for a moment: who is a Jew? "Anyone who says he's one" or.. Or? Someone who's mum is one. Now, the first is fine, if someone is a Jew because he says "I am" who cares. If one wants to identify himself that way who really cares? But one does so because one follows racial criteria? This is the point. This is Zionism. like I said with my mum. Unlike Greenstein, her own family was actually in concentration camps, so I suppose she or "I" would have some reason to have a vested interest. I also was part of capturing a Nazi criminal, so this bullshit is just more of your grabbing at straws because facts are totally different from this deluded idea you have of somehow portraying me as some racist being, without ANY proof other than insinuation and your repetitive crap that Shraga and you two are the last to buy. The Holocaust affected my family and therefore myself, and to hear a Joe or Greenstein tell me I'm Judeophobe or don't understand the Holocaust is unacceptable for me, but I let it pass. I have no respect for either of the dimwits.

I see the two of them referring in racial terms, and denying that Israel is designed as a Jewish state, that it just makes me wonder why this obsession, unless they are projecting their own racism. I think part of Joe's problem is that he doesn't know wha he's on about, considering that he thinks "non-Jew" is a normal way to refer to people, and "Gentile" is a slur! I mean, I ask myself why I waste the time, I guess it is just that you run around avoiding all of the things I mention or act like you don't understand them. I don't want to repeat myself again, so Joe, just re-read it and it will be evident to you, once you fall out of the denial phase you seem to think is normal.

Anyway, I don't care that Joe does nothing, he never claimed to. It's Tony putting down other activists who are heavily involved. It's pretty ugly, actually! But, Tony is the sun around which all activism revolves.

Revolting!

Tony Greenstein said...

It's irrelevant what connection Mary or her family has with Nazi concentration camps. The fact is she gives cover to those who sa y there were no such camps or no extermination camps. So why Mary hosts the 'knuckles' Atzmons and other holocaust deniers is something probably only a psychiatrist can satisfactorily answer.

Mary is an anti-Semite because she openly argues for jewish power, gives space to Atzmon to weave his tales about Jewish money as well as all his other anti-Semitic nonsense and consistently defends these characters.

The fact that she has been involved in the extradition of a Nazi in a previous life is neither her nor there. I judge her on what she does now and apart from giving a platform to anti-Semites and holocaust deniers, not a lot it would seem. Apart from trying to divide the Palestinian solidarity movement around the '2 outstanding personalities' who are, to use her analogy, a twin star.

joe90 said...

As usual, your comments are all over the place Mary.
Once one argument is refuted, the refutation goes unacknowledged - something else just takes its place or is just silently forgotten.

How many times I was called a liar - how many different ways I was exposed as one by Mary, even down the fact I was sharing a comment thread with others. All of it rubbish. All of it now ignored by Mary.

Same goes for Mary constantly forgetting that she has already said umpteen times she doesn't care for me, only to reappear and tell me shoe doesn't care.


I didn't drag your family into this comment thread Mary. You did, for your own benefit, just as you are doing now. Mary even managed to give me the blame of dragging gas ovens into the comments. However, that's my own fault, as I don't understand the holocaust or nazi and zionist lies about Judaism amd Jewish poeple.

And there is no use coming crying to me about what happened to your family during the holocaust - they had it coming to them, according to you and atzmon. Or don't you remember that bit.


And really Mary, after all this time, is the best defence you can come up with, you aren't racist, its me. That must've took you hours to think up.
There's only one problem with it that I can see Mary - you've provided no supporting proof or evidence. Concatenation of meandering sentences full of gibberish isn't usually accepted as proof.


I don't care that Joe does nothing, he never claimed to
- I'm not interested in empty celebrity status or cheap popularity won on the backs of the horrific suffering of innocent defenceless people such as Palestinians.

I have already told you this Mary.

I am interested in solidarity, which is far more meaningful and far more effective method of 'activism' than the shoddy attention grabbing attention-deficit cult of personality which you promote and encourage.
I am not interested in compiling a cv to impress people as vacuous as you Mary. I told you, I am not interested in exploiting the pain and suffering of victims of race-hate war crimes. I couldn't care less if I am not as popular, super and wonderful as you or atzmon, or that I don't have an outstanding perosnality.
That is how solidarity actually works, as far as I can see. Selfless, silent, dedication of humanity in the service of others - unlike your noisy empty rancourous expletive-filled ego trip full of bile and hate.

It's the strangest notion of a solidarity movement/campaign I've ever come across - sympathisers, and the whole gamut of different people from different backgrounds from different parts of the world all have to prove their worth first in order to be admitted, otherwise they won't be counted as part of the movement!

That is some notion of solidarity - it sounds to me like its Mary who is the gatekeeper really, rather than the victims of her anti-Jewish abuse.

thecutter said...

Yup, just as I thought, Ismail got bombarded with your crap Tony. Funny thing is, he doesn't want to take any sides and he is for anyone who is against Zionism. I asked him if he wanted me to remove his name, and he did not want that.

So, bothering those and sending them unsolicited harassment telling them what to do is just thinking you know best what is for them.

Shame on you.

joe90 said...

It's called 'activism' Mary -
- exposing neo-nazi zionists like you, and preventing you from disseminating your poison and undermining an anti-racist solidarity campaign is a very useful activity.

I wouldn't think a zionist gatekeeper like you Mary, would allow people like Tony Greenstein into your neo-nazi version of a solidarity campaign, where people get the opportunity, to tell you and atzmon, how wonderful and super you both are.

thecutter said...

Neo Nazi Zionists like me... Joe you are sick. Would you like to see an example of a modern day one? One who denies the Palestinian people? Look no further than your fave webmaster who wrote this:

ironically Yedidya is quite right. But for the Zionists there would have been no Palestinian people. It was the British Mandate and the Zionist settlement project which created this people who would otherwise be living in Southern Syria, Arabia or whatever.

Tony

What's your view on that, Joe? or this one:
Why does a Palestinian people exist? Because Zionism, in its attempts to create a new Jewish nation in fact created its very opposite, the Palestinians. They were the group subjugated and expelled. Before the Zionists came there was no Palestinian nation and there was no group who claimed such a title. That is one of the ironies of Zionism.


Please, don't avoid the question this time. It matters how you respond to this. I imagine

BTW, Ismail has seen the first quote as well. Ismail was not pleased and he knows Tony is not what he claims to be. But, Ismail may query Tony on his own. As it stands, he is certain he took the "right side" of the controversy, and although I know Tony has been harassing many of the signatories, when they know who he is, they report him to Yahoo for harassment as some have done, call him by his real identity, the Zionist Night Dog, or they ignore his abuse. When they don't know, they get drawn into his tricks, but it doesn't take much to expose him, and when it happens, Tony's own words betray his beliefs.

And Shraga now calls Hajo an Anti-Semite, so I guess I am in good company if this it the standard procedure.

Couldn't get more nutty than the two of you if you tried!

joe90 said...

Neo Nazi Zionists like me
Someone like you Mary who supports, spreads and disseminates Nazi lies about the victims of the Nazis is a neo-Nazi - stands to reason.


Please, don't avoid the question this time. It matters how you respond to this. I imagine
- Yes, you imagine Mary.
In complete contra-distinction to your repeated assertions of my worthlessness.
Now you have changed your vacuous empty mind Mary, and my worthlessness does matter, especially when a neo-nazi/zionist gatekeeper like you, can 'imagine' it to be so. The self-appointed neo-nazi zionist gatekeeper has given me a test to complete!


On your completely unrelated issue (and therefore zionist/neo-nazi mis-direction) - it is a common historical phenomena that a people, any group of people, under pressure and threat from an outside force commonly find a common cause and a common identity.

There is no shame in this and struggle is a proud attribute for a People to display - of how they love freedom and would rather perish than live as slaves under tyranny. It is how the 'Scots' became a nation and a state - one of the first, if not the first, to define itself as such way back in the 14th century.

'Struggle' that comes to define a nation/people/state isn't even controversial history - although why a neo-Nazi and zionist like you Mary, would think that the influence of struggle against zionism controversial, is because it strikes at the roots of zionist lies about Jewish People and Judaism, Palestinians.


Just flicking through Baruch Kimmerling and Joel S. Migdal's -
Palestinian People: A History' (2003)
- they reckon three revolts have defined the modern history of the country's Arabs, page 5-6.
Namely 1834, 1936-9 and the First Intifada started 1987.

Why anyone would want to efface the Palestinian struggle against vast superpower empires and their violent racist clients I can't imagine. Unless of course, it is because they think zionist tyranny should be airbrushed out of Palestine's proud heritage. One of the very attributes outsider's love about the Palestinians is their refusal to give in and their love of freedom for freedom's sake. Yet, this doesn't exist, according to pro-zionist Mary.

I have already answered this pathetic question anyway, in relation to Jewish People and Judaism - anybody is entitled to be whom or whoever they want. It is their right regardless of their own history.

And Palestinian People aren't to be confused with lines drawn on a map and called 'Palestine' - the two aren't the same. Much in the same way as the 'state of Israel' isn't to be confused with Jewish People or Judaism, as zionists like Mary are always doing.

thecutter said...

Joe, you are just plain bonkers!

At any rate, besides having to hear you call me a neo-nazi (based on zero evidence, but go on, this is getting more and more absurd), I am really interested in what you say about those two specific quotes.

Don't be afraid to address them. Shall you like to see how Ismail reacted to the first one (the second he was spared)? It will shine a light on what you think the struggle is, who the Palestinians are and where you are as far as history goes.

Try to keep on topic Joe and not avoid the very simply question. It's not a test, it is simply seeing what you make of those statements. If you are convinced that they are true statements, that is all I care about knowing. I shall perhaps have to direct Mr Zayid here directly, I don't' think he'd believe me if I described what you two self-styled "palestinia supporters" are willing to defend as an argument.

joe90 said...

Joe, you are just plain bonkers!
- So you keep saying Mary, but still doesn't stop your endless zionist gatekeeping twaddle.

I have gave you my history answers.

I gave a quote from an authoritative source which names 3 revolts as important in the formation of the identity of the Palestinian People -
ie revolts being sources of conflict, 2 ft then named revolts are against zionists, and their super-power sponsors.

Clearly then, there was a collective known as 'Palestinians' who thought of themselves as such however rudimentary, from at least 1834 - although Kimmerling and Migdal point out they are only interested in peasant felahin rather than itinerant Bedoiun.

The character of a 'People' never being static of course, and always something nebulous, the nature of Palestinian identity changes with time and circumstance. Given the fact there has never been lines on a map to delineate a Palestinian state, with its own Palestinian government, then the collective character of Palestinians People themselves because somewhat more nebulous than normal, as far as tracing its outlines in the annals of recent modern history.

Anyway, what is it you find 'bonkers' Mary, about an uncontroversial authoritative sociological source on the formation of the collective and changing identity of the Palestinian People?
I couldn't begin to imagine myself what it is.

I have it from Kimmerling and Migdal that 1834, then 1936-9 then the First Intifada are important for the formation of the national consciousness of the Palestinian People, and their own sense of themselves.

Obvioulsy, these pair are bonkers, unlike you Mary who uses Palestinian solidarity to disseminate antisemitic nazi propaganda.

Or maybe Mary, you think Palestinians are completely incapable of change (an old racist imperialist slur on them) and that they are some kind of undying 'essence', a property found in zionist and nazi propaganda.

Or that historical change has no influence on this pre-exising Palestinian 'essence', in much the same way you imagine 'Israel' is the distilled essence of Judaism.


Who knows what there would have been without the zionists and their superpower protectors - but I'm not a big fan of counterfactuals myself.

thecutter said...

Bonkers and a dyed in the wool Zionist.

This is what Ismail Zayid said regarding Tony's statement, Hope it clears up a bit of history for you both, Joe and Tony, two super Zionists of the first order and bonkers to boot!:
Dear Mary:

I find this unbelievable.
Where is the Palestinian state, that the zionists kindly provided to us? And who was living in Palestine [the land of Canaan] since history began, and long before the Hebrew tribes came to the Land of Canaan as invaders, and were driven out by other invaders, the Romans? Palestine has been invaded by scores of foreign invaders including the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Hebrew tribes, the Romans, the Turks and the British. Invaders come and go and have no right to conquered land anymore than the Romans to England which they conquered for hundreds of years.

There are many honourable Israelis and Jews who knew the historic facts and had the integrity to speak out. I met and knew the late Israel Shahak in 1970, when we were both invited speakers at St. Andrews University in Scotland, on the subject of Palestine and zionism. When I asked him how did he get involved in this conflict, he told me hoerrifying experiences he witnessed the Israeli forces subjecting Palestinian university students to, in Ramallah, which are horrible to relate here. He described their activites to what the Nazis did to Jews in Belsen, where he was held. He said after what he saw in Ramallah, he vowed ro fight Zionism to his dying days, and he did that. He was a man of unique honour who deserve to be acclaimed by all those who care about humanity and justice.

As to this outrageous statement you quoted, I'll let the late Jewish Professor Maxime Rodinson, who was Professor of History at The Sorbonne University in Paris, who stated in his book Israel and the Arabs, 1968: " The Arab population of Palestine was native in all the senses of the word and their roots in Palestine can be traced back at least forty centuries."

If that statement, you quoted, truly expresses the sentiments of Tony Greenstein, then I know where I stand in relation to this controversy, that I got involved in unknowingly.
I trust you do not think that, I hope...

Interestingly, I see the name of Zalman Amit included below. What is his role in this?
He lives in our neighbourhood in Nova Scotia and he is a good man and a friend of ours.

Thank you, Mary. I am simply bewildered, and I will leave it that. May be, I should ask Tony Greenstein if this statement represents his views.

Ismail Zayid

joe90 said...

I will leave it that
- But you never do Mary because your propaganda is always being shown up for what it is.

I see you are bombarding people with emails - something you accuse others of.


In contrast with your assertion that it does, this chap's letter doesn't quite contradict myself or my quotes from Kimmerling and Migdal, which refer to 1834.

This chap's letter quotes Babylonians, Romans, Phonecians (from hence Filasteen)) etc - who were all pre-1834, I believe.

I have never asserted Palestine has ever been empty - and then zionist came and populated it.
You seem to think I have said Palestine was empty of people - where have I said such a thing Mary?

Palestine always had 'native' people. Palestine and the Levant has always been one of the great cultural moterways of the world - a bridge between Africa and Asia, hence the reasons for all the comings and goings over thousands of years.

It's interesting that you can't understand modern historical ideas regarding the differences between a nation, a state, a people and culture Mary.

It's also intersting you provide proof for something I have never argued for and don't support. Ideas which are not mine -
- as always Mary, could you please provide proof that I have said Palestine, as such, was empty or that zionists gave Palestinians a state (a particularly bizarre idea)?

Mary's ideas about the formation of nation-states, in the modern period, must be really very strange indeed if she thinks all states have always existed outside of the modern period, and were formed without any reference to the forces in the outside world - or without reference to internal factors.

As usual, when it comes to actual reality and history, Mary's understanding is a bit lacking.

Why would a zionist antisemitic neo-nazi, such as Mary, want to claim that these ideas are mine when they aren't?


I'll leave Tony Greenstein to argue for himself, as he doesn't need the likes of me to stand up for him.

joe90 said...

So this has been Mary's example of a modern-day neo-nazi zionist. An example she introduced in comments - 01 April 2008 21:24

Thus it has been proven myself, and maybe even Tony Greenstein, are zionists according to Mary - who has so ran out of ideas she is now stealing mine, unacknowledged, but that should go without saying - she's so hopless she probably thinks no one will notice.

Naturally, Mary used a Palestinian as her human shield to hide behind.

How the collective identity of the Palestinian People came into being, Mary herself doesn't say.

How Palestinians can have their own collective identity without any autonomy or rights to land, life or liberty - Mary doesn't say.

The modern day make-up of the Middle East was created in the West - in such documents as the Sykes-Picot Agreement, the Balfour Declaration and the various post-World War I settlements.

In other words, the Middle East as it now stands, is a western imperialist invention and has very little relation to the Peoples of that region.

The formation of the current states in the Middle East have very little to do with the people who actually live in them.

Likewise, Middle East governments have very little to do with the people they govern.

And here is a quote about the work of Rashid Khalidi, notable Palestinian historian -
"...he does not posit primordial national identities, but clearly argues that these nations have legitimacy and rights. In Palestinian Identity: The Construction of Modern National Consciousness (1997), he places the emergence of Palestinian national identity in the context of Ottoman and British colonialism as well as the early Zionist effort in the Levant. This book won the Middle East Studies Association’s Albert Hourani Prize as best book of 1997. His dating of Palestinian national emergence to the early 20th century ..."
Rashid Khalidi
wikipedia entry

As you can see, the foremost Palestinian historian about modern day Palestinian national consciousness is nothing but a zionist, according to Mary.


The fact is, it is difficult to say how the Middle East would look like today, without Western imperial colonial intervention. Maybe current day Palestinians would be living in a Greater Syria or a Greater Egypt or a re-configured Ottoman Empire/Turkish Entity. Who knows.

What we do know is that western imperialism and colonialism in the guise of zionism, has had an impact on the Peoples of the Levant especially, but also in the wider Middle East. And why anyone in their right mind would want to deny that fact is beyond me.

And why anyone would should be called a zionist for acknowledging the reality of life in the Middle East under western imperialism, and its colonial outpost of zionist Israel, is also bizarre.

thecutter said...

Palestinian as a human shield? Joe, you are impossible.

You can't justify your own racism / thinking of Jews as a race, and expecting others to do so as well, not identifying Israel as a racist state of and for Jews, and then going on through using the events in recent history to identify when Palestinians "found" their identity! You ask how they could have their identity without rights, a state, etc.... how do you give that to Jews pre-Israel if you won't allow it for Palestinians? Do you know what you write when you write it? And, careful with wikipedia! Tony uses it, but when others do, he goes ballistic. But he is becoming an institution, you should too.

Sick and stupid.

I happened to know Ismail already, as in the past few years we have been on each other's mailing lists, so I was not bombarding a stranger like Tony does. As a matter of fact, I wrote Ismail to ask if he wanted his name off the list, as Tony seems to "suggest" and Ismail wanted to understand the situation. I showed him the "Palestinians are the Priority" Petition the two of you despise so much and said, "This is what Tony doesn't stand for". And, he said he stood by both petitions and wanted to sign the one that you both despise in addition to remaining on the one Tony is trying to bully him off of.

If anyone is "using" people, it is only Tony.

He can't admit people do not support someone who holds Zionist ideas about Israel and Palestinians and Jews, and then accuses others of being Nazis and Zionists.

Won't bother with you again. If you need reading glasses, go to Boots. I will continue to read your moral and intellectual decline, but will avoid responding to such vile and creepy beings as the two of you.

Good luck and I mean it for real. By undersigning a bunch of Zionist ideas, you have become a full fledged Zionist, if you even know what that means.

Fartypants said...

This discussion could win an award - for the most irrelevant factional bullshit this year. Each side are now accusing the other of being racist, semi-Nazis and Zionists. Thankfully I do understand the nuances between the sides, but they are not massive by any means. Certainly not enough to justify this level of heat. What a diversion from doing anything constructive!!!!

joe90 said...

You can't justify your own racism / thinking of Jews as a race
- I see you are continuing where you left off Mary - wandering off onto a completely different topic altogether (again).
If you manage to come across any quotes by myself arguing that Judaism is a race I'd be most grateful if you could post them - that way you'd be able to prove your argument otherwise its more of your lies and mis-direction.

Israel is a racist state but it isn't a 'Jewish' state - that is just a claim made by you and your fellow zionists.

And if Palestinians (Israeli, Refugee and Occupied) have the right to life, liberty and property under the zionist state then I would like you to prove it.

Here is me thinking that is what all the fuss is about - that Palestinians are denied these rights and have been denied them ever since 1948 (and before under the British Mandate) - but no, in Mary's alternate universe, Palestinians have full possession of all their rights and exercise them and have them protected and enforced under the zionist Israeli state.


To follow on I merely stated the glaringly obvious -
How the collective identity of the Palestinian People came into being, Mary herself doesn't say.
- and also -
How Palestinians can have their own collective identity without any autonomy or rights to land, life or liberty - Mary doesn't say.
Here is Mary's paraphrase and answer -
You ask how they could have their identity without rights, a state, etc...how do you give that to Jews pre-Israel if you won't allow it for Palestinians?

Mary answers her own question by reference to 'Jews pre-Israel', something I myself nor Tony Greenstein are allowed to do.
See Mary's comments - 01 April 2008 21:24
Mary criticises Tony Greenstein for reference to zionist influence, and Mary quotes an outraged email from one of her Palestinian human shields regarding Tony's references to zionist influence in Mandate Palestine/Levant. In typical Mary fashion, she then goes on to undermiine her own objections and arguments by making references to zionism when talking about Palestinians and their identity/nationality!

Notice Mary yet again deliberately distorting what I have said, as well as what Migdal, Kimmerling and Rashid Khalidi (amongst others) have said. I make no mention of Jewish-Israeli nationality/identity but am talking about Palestinians.


Mary, why don't you direct your Palestinian human shield to this thread, then he can judge for himself how much of a muddled, vacuous, empty outstanding personlity you have?


Mary struck dumb (again!), which is no bad thing. People like her have far too much time and energy on their hands for the good of everybody in a solidarity campaign. She has no background as to the historical forces which influence modern history in the Middle East, or even the slightest idea of what exactly are the problems Palestinians face and why.
Personally, I would rather have thoughtful but slightly lazy people (ie not given to emotional spleen) in a solidarity movement, than clueless ego-maniacal half-wits running around like headless chickens causing all sorts of friction and problems when people don't agree with them.


I'll use whatever source I feel like if it proves useful.
Wasn't it atzmon who was complaining about Roland Rance becoming a contrinbutor to wikipedia. Atzmon even began to name call him 'wiki'. However, take a look at atzmon's wiki page as soon as he writes something - his biography (for want of a better description) is updated in a flash.


you have become a full fledged Zionist
It's my understanding that zionists don't deny the 'Jewish' character of the Israeli state, whereas I do and have said so repeatedly to you.
However, it is you Mary who believes Israel is a 'Jewish' state, and therefore, it is you who are the zionist not me.
This is another relatively simple concept about the Israeli-Palestinian situation which seems beyond your intellectual grasp Mary.


Won't bother with you again.
- There is no point holding you to that Mary.
Feel free to turn up anytime and make a complete fool of yourself, and reveal how much you actually don't know about Palestinians, their problems and the historical forces that have went iinto the making of both.

Tony Greenstein said...

What Mary means is that I e-mailed Ismail to ask whether he stood by what he had allegedly written. He didn't. He has failed to defend any remark that he has made. Ismail is an elderly Palestinian physician in Canada just as Hajo is very old. These are the people that Mary uses, most of whom don't even understand what her petition is about other than the fact that it condemns a wicked Zionist for 'censoring' Atzmon & the other outstanding personality.

The reality is that when Gaza is under siege, when some of us are trying to build a boycott campaign, Mary is trying to build a campaign in support of herself.

You couldn't make it up.

Tony Greenstein


>>Yup, just as I thought, Ismail got bombarded with your crap Tony. Funny thing is, he doesn't want to take any sides and he is for anyone who is against Zionism. I asked him if he wanted me to remove his name, and he did not want that.

So, bothering those and sending them unsolicited harassment telling them what to do is just thinking you know best what is for them.

Shame on you.

joe90 said...

Against my better judgement I had a quick shuftie at Rizzo's antisemitic sewer of a blog.

She has posted an article about her email to that Palestinian chap in which Tony Greenstein is quoted as allegedly saying that, without zionism, there would be no Palestinians.

Unfortunately, Mary is more interested in her own fragile crazy state of mind than in posting articles that reflect up-to-date scholarship on important issues to do with Palestine and Palestinians.

In fact, its a mere truism to say that zionism has affected the Levant and Palestinian People in particular.

Crazy Mary, of course, is trying to cover up her complete and total lack of knowledge - now that she has made a complete and utter public spectacle and fool of herself (what's new?).

In a campaign devoted to such universal ideals as truth, justice, and peace for all - Mary carries on and continues her poisonious antisemitic factionalist campaign in order to weaken the solidarity movement.

In a solidarity movement based on truth, Mary refuses to stand corrected. This is how much importance she places on her own outstanding personality rather than on unimportant stuff such as 'truth'.

I wonder why Mary hasn't posted a link to this comment thread?
It would be highly illuminating for all those people who have signed her petition to find out just how much of an outstanding personality she actually has, and its importance in the scheme of things.

Anonymous said...

To Joe90:

Rizzo has no other option than to demonise Greenstein.

She and Atzmon have been exposed as NeoNAzi sympathisers.

Since their sympathies are so well documented and beyond any reasonable doubt, they cannot possibly refute this, so all they have left is the classical imperialist mentality of a "foreign policy diversion". I.e., create a stink somewhere else to draw attention away from themselves.

Which they have like everything made a complete pigs breakfast of.


I am however yet to see any hard evidence of Greenstein being a Zionist. From what I know of him, his MO seems to be foremost on the side of the Palestinians and in defiance of his British Jewish background.

Is Rizzo's accusation just a smokescreen or is she really so snug in DAvid Duke's bed that she really believes that anyone who shouts "anti-Semitsm" is a Zionist.

Cynical strategist or shit-thick racist?

William Hill have just told me they aren't giving odds on this bet either.

You decide, but I have seen the her certificate of merit from the University of Short Planks.

To paraphrase Jello Biafra:

Nazi PSMers fuck off!

joe90 said...

I see crazy Mary, the outstanding personality and scholar of Palestinian nationalism has quoted my last comment on her antisemitic sewer of blog - strange to say, she doesn't include a link to this very comment thread so that others can see the quality of her knowledge of a crucial subject.

Just to say that, crazy mary does have the word 'palestine' in the title of her blog (unfortunately), so you'd think she'd know a thing or two about the roots and development of Palestinian collective national consciousness.

Here's a classic maryism comment she made on her bog (which is on a subject with a considerable body of scholarship behind it don't forget) -
He didn't say "Israel" would not exist, the argument was the Palestinian people, the discourse of peoplehood. Palestine never would have been Arabia or even Syria, because the identity of a people is linked to how they consider their territorial belonging. Everyone I know who has Palestinian origins was aware of them. Palestinians embrace panarabism, but also a territorial nationalism that is related to their own land and identity as a group, which has nothing to do with another identifying them, but with self-identification in customs, dialect, traditions, location.
thecutter 04.03.08 - 6:07 pm

Mary thus reduces the subject of the historical development of Palestinian nationalism to - "Palestinians I know say this, so it must be true" - thus using Palestinians as usual, as her human shields, whom mary also seems to be giving the blame, in this instance, for her spectacularly gross ignorance.

I particularly love the maryism 'the discourse of peoplehood' - typical woolly-headed post-modernish mind-junk. Mary herself maintains Palestinian nationalism has involved only Palestinians, so who the Palestinians are having a discourse with, I've no idea. Presumabley she means 'the soliliquy of peoplehood' which still adds nothing of any value to a process as historical and empirical as the formation of national collective identity.


I was just re-reading Tony Greenstein's last UK Guardian newspaper 'Comment is Free' contribution -
Israel's royal welcome
Tony Greenstein
The Guardian CiF
25 Mar 2008

As solid a piece of scholarly knowldege as you are likely to get on the Jewish National Fund in any corporate newspaper with a decent circulation.

And yet, despite the plethora of such articles written by Tony Greenstein over the years, Mad Mary wants others to believe, on the strength of a line or two in an email, that Tony Greenstein denies the existence of people in the Levant/Palestine area prior to zionism's arrival.

Indeed, Tony Greenstein is, according to mad mary and despite all the evidence to the exact contrary, a zionist. Well, Tony is Jewish so he must be a zionist - which is the equation Atzmon uses in his never-ending stream of turgid sermons, all on the exact same theme.

Atzmon, in his not very clever way, constantly and deliberately equates Jewish folk/Judaism with zionsism. Usually he'll take a story from The Old Testament and decorate it with his usual, not very clever, jew-baiting devices. Basically, this is the idiot's guide to Atzmon - same with his disciple rizzo.

joe90 said...

Before copying and pasting a sizeable gobbet from my comments here on AZaAS, Mad Mary says -

This is what Joe Kane has to say... in the battle of "up to date scholarship" Palestinians are dependent upon Zionists to tell them who they are, as Greenstein claims. Read it folks, especially the bit about being able to "stand corrected" as Greenstein still fibs and lies that I forged "signatories" (sic)
- I didn't know Rashid Khalidi, the well known US-Palestinian historian, was a zionist!

Anyway, in lieu of anything that looks like a reasonable argument Mary simply reverts to calling anybody who disagrees with her pseudo-academic babble, a zionist.

Also, its important to realise Mary's technique of constantly setting up Palestinians in her arguments so that, if you disagree with her, what you are actually doing is disagreeing with Palestinians as well.

Thus, Mary gets the opportunity to pretend she is a champion of Palestinians, and also gets the opportunity to call you a zionist at the same time.

Amongst many problems with Mary's use of Palestinians as sandbags and human shields, is her shameless exploitation of the Palestinians themselves. Putting people who care about the welfare of occupied Palestinians at loggerheads with Palestinians themselves is a disgrace, especially for someone who claims they belong to a solidarity campaign/movement.

Arguments rest or fall on evidence, not on Mary's own personal relationships with others.

To exploit weak and defenceless Palestinians in such a way as this, the very people whom Mary claims she is trying to help, in order to disguise her own lack of knowledge and inablity to construct a sensible argument, again, is an utter disgrace.

Another of Mary's arguments -
Read it folks
- here she seems to be implying her arguments (for lack of a better description to call them by) have not be dealt with reasonably and that she has suffered some kind of culumny and is the victim of nefarious practices.
Her argument is her plea to others, nothing else besides.

I always thought that solidarity campaigns involved the highest ideals, but especially where truth and veracity are concerned. So what the likes of Mary Rizzo and her blog 'peacepalestine' are doing in such a movement is beyond me.

Nazi PSMers Fuck Off! said...

"Also, its important to realise Mary's technique of constantly setting up Palestinians in her arguments so that, if you disagree with her, what you are actually doing is disagreeing with Palestinians as well."

It's the intellectual moral equivalent to using human shields.

Anyway...

She is obviously a complete fuckwit if she can't see that Zionism has been a forging force for a Palestinian national identity.

That observation is merely saying, the establishment of Israel created an urgent need for that identity.

Either she it too fucking gormless to see that nowhere in that statement is there to be seen the suggestion that Israel was a great idea or she is following her usual MO of deception. In fact, that statement in itself contains no value judgements on the merits of Zionism at all.

When an academic writes that the establishment of the USA created a need for an ethnic identity that transcended insular native American tribes, does that statement also endorse that genocide?

Of course it doesn't!

Only an idiot or a liar would state otherwise.

Sorry, an idiotic liar could also qualify.

joe90 said...

Very well put 'Nazi PSMers Fuck Off!'

I actually can't believe either how deceitful Mary Rizzo actually is or how completely stupid she is.

By the way, you mentioned Jello Biafra - is that the Jello Biafra of 'The Dead Kennedys' fame by any chance, one of the finest rock'n'roll bands ever to come out of the US?

thecutter said...

Joe and Tony are the internet version of obsessed stalkers.

Why they can't get a life is beyond me. I've never had so much attention "lavished" on me since my wedding day.

Of course, they will come up with a "political" reason to waste their time and ours. Must be hours and hours of it. I call it demented.

And, of course, I'm not going to waste any time with people who can't understand a Zionist claim when they read it. Funny, so many bloggers now are outing Tony for what he is, it must hurt his ego.

Nazi PSMers Fuck Off! said...

"And, of course, I'm not going to waste any time with people who can't understand a Zionist claim when they read it."

More like you can't because you damn well know there was no "Zionist claim" made whatsoever.

Otherwise, you'd be able to spell it out.

You now by default admit that it was just another truly pathetic attempt at a smear. Otherwise you'd substantiate it. But we all know, including yourself, that you can't!

My, you have wasted enough time telling us nothing, but suddenly your time is such a precious commodity you cannot afford to back up your statements... as usual.



@ Joe90:

Could there be two JBs!???

thecutter said...

Zionist statements? Here they are. The first one is by an Israeli the second by TG. To which, many people responded on both blogs in which it was published. These Palestinians were also able to identify it as 100% Zionist claims. Don't like it? Sorry. You don't like that 300 people told Tony to stuff it, but rather than listen to them, he creates a blog against his bitter enemies. NO! Not Zionists, settlers or Nazis, but two people in the campaign. But, we aren't worried, with Shraga calling Hajo Meyer an Anti Semite, I suppose we are in good company. What "arguments"? How about looking up Turin on my blog and see that I have more on the boycott than Tony has ever printed. That I translate more on it. Now, as to the Seige, what the hell is Tony doing? Protecting his bruised ego. JOKERS. But, really, you are right about wasting the time. I hate to do it, but here's the quote you want.

After the long celebration of “The Invention of the Jewish People” (in which I take side with Prof. Sand), perhaps now is the time to investigate “the Invention of the Palestinian Peoplehood”. I believe that a very short research will discover that it was invented by the British occupation authorities right after WWI. Since the Philistines were absorbed by the Judeans during the kingdom of David (according to the Biblical myth, of course), there was nothing like “a Palestinian People”, until the 20th century.

Yedidya

ironically Yedidya is quite right. But for the Zionists there would have been no Palestinian people. It was the British Mandate and the Zionist settlement project which created this people who would otherwise be living in Southern Syria, Arabia or whatever.

Tony

Tony Greenstein said...

It seems that Mary is becoming ever more rabid.

I've had a long correspondence with one of the signatories,Ismail Zaid, who is Chair of the Canadian Palestine Association. He didn't realise the 'petition' attacked me personally, hasn't a clue what it was really about still less what the debate was about but welcomes Jews standing up as Jews to oppose what Zionism does. Whereas Atzmon believes it is a Zionist act to oppose Zionism if you are Jewish!

To be blunt, apart from the hardcore of racists like Rizzo, very few signatories had a clue what it was all about so no, I won't take the petition that Rizzo dreamt up seriously!

As for the question of Palestinian nationhood. I realise that it is a difficult argument for Rizzo to comprehend, as opposed to the normal Atzmon/Shamir conspiracy theories. Far better Atzmon's latest rant on Redress about how terrible the remnants of the Bund are in wanting to 'rob' the rich.

But it is a fact that nations, not people, but nations are socio-political formations which occur as a result of external factors as much as internal ones. The French Revolution is usually held tobe the birth of French nationality, likewise the reunification of Germany. Likewise it was the effects of Zionist colonisation which helped create the Palestinian nation because before that the indigenous population saw itself as much Syrian as Palestinian and Palestine had also been seen as extending into what is today known as Jordan. So palestinian nationhood is a specific historial phenomenon, just as the formation of British nationhood is. But for Rizzo, just like the Zionists, nationhood is timeless and eternal.

So for Zionists there has always been a Jewish 'nation'. And for Rizzo there has always been a Palestinian nation. History plays no part which is why when the Zionists say that Israel is a Jewish state, which it is in terms of the privileges accorded to those of the Jewish religion or national definition, Rizzo believes that this is proof that there is some essence of being Jewish, that if it was say a Protestant state like in Northern Ireland, it would have behaved differently.

Fact is that when you lie down with dogs Mary you get fleas and you've been lying around with quite a lot of dogs.

Nazi PSMers Fuck Off! said...

That'll be the 300 people you deceived with an incoherent petition? (See earlier posts on this blog for more!)

Did the word "ironically" get overlooked in your haste to find dirt Mary?

Yet again, all I see is mere statement of fact. That Palestinian identity has been considerably influenced by the Israeli landgrab and atrocities.

But, I still can't see where TG is saying "Zionism is fucking great!"

I suspect because he doesn't even imply it.

Care to elucidate on it for us benighted fools? And could you contact my dad Aunt while you are in your clairvoyant trance?

Come on Mary you must have something better than that?

Are you just a crap liar or are you really a total moron?

thecutter said...

ahahah! this is great! I post up a brief example of Joe licking Gilad and me all over the place, insulting anyone who would dare smear us, and TONY DELETES IT!

Well, Tony, that is really big of you! How courageous you are and how much you love the truth. Joe has always been duplicitious. Who are you trying to protect? Joe or yourself?

Nazi PSMers Fuck Off! said...

So, the guy made a mistake and has rectified his position.

There are 300 similar people on your blog...

Ask him if he still stands by you.

You seem to need an answer to that question. For the rest of us it's evident he know thinks something less of you.

Nazi PSMers Fuck Off! said...

Well, we just saw Mary sidestep defending her position YET again...

I was going to say it is what she does best, but she doesn't do it well at all, just frequently.

Once again, where is your substantiation that TG is Zionist?

Well at least she told us one thing, she knows bugger all about national identity.

Since that kind of stuff is elementary reading for sociology and history students... in fact often covered in the ubiquitous 3rd option (History of Ideas), she should ask her learned Mentor Prof. Emiertius Atzmon of the Univeristy of Extemporised Data (upstairs Oklahoma City).

The pair of you could then become the Sapir & Whorf of PSM instead of looking like the Laurel & Hardy of Mossad.

thecutter said...

Crave my attention like oxygen, huh?

If you think doubting the "peoplehood" of Palestinians is not Zionist thought, then I feel sorry for you. Tony threw in the superfluous lesson of "nation" as I did not even use the word, and in the post that the Palestinian readers are disgusted with, that is his argument. You can't see it, that just shows who you are, and I don't care.

But then again, it's more interesting to see the lickfest Joe does with any board he is on, and how he attacks anyone else.

But, my friends are telling me (correctly) to not dialogue with dwarfs, so I will take this "email me with new comments" notice off, because that is the only way I even notice you exist.


oh btw, an interesing article on this issue will be up on my wordpress blog today. Free to comment it there if you want.

You seem to lament that I don't "give this url" (when actually I have) when you are too frightened to even comment with others who are not in your daisy chain.

joe90 said...

If you think doubting the "peoplehood" of Palestinians is not Zionist thought, then I feel sorry for you.
- A typical Maryism
She even puts her neologism 'peoplehood' in quote marks as if somebody said it. It also gives her plenty of wriggle-room to spout woolly-headed pseudo-postmodern pseudo-speak that nobdy can understand
cf anything written by atzmon, or Oren-Ben Dor who is always worth quoting -

Oren Ben-Dor - Southampton University Lecturer Who Supports Bigots In the Name of Free Speech
AZaAS
18 Mar 2008
Zionism can be conceived as a symptom the non-empathetic manifestations of which are historically and existentially continuing certain facets of Jewish being and thinking...
..Zionism can be conceived as a symptom the non-empathetic manifestations of which are historically and existentially continuing certain facets of Jewish being and thinking. It is very important to ask whether the originary aggression of victim mentality as well as the choseness-begotten separateness existentially links the Zionist and the Jewish question.'

- Or maybe it isn't, who knows?

According to Mary nation is superfluous but not 'peoplehood', but why nation isn't valid Mary doesn't say - and I always thought it was only zionists who denied the Palestinians their nationhood. This must mean Mary is a zionist.

By the way, in case you want to track back, Mary introduced the question of the formation of Palestinian national consciousness, out the blue with her comments at 01 April 2008 21:24 - where she introduces it in her usual email format, so redolent of her style... an email says this, an email says that, an emial says the other.
A style very easy to expoloit for purposes other than clear-headed thinking.


..it's more interesting to see the lickfest Joe does..
I see Mary stil can't cope with the idea of people openly associating themselves in public with the Jews. She doesn't seem able to get her head round this novel idea, as she has describe me as (and I parahprase)
- thick with the Jews
- patronising the Jews (which makes me antisemitic, according to mary comment 23 March 2008 23:50)
- the Jews are patronisng me
- I'm not on their mailing list (ie they're cliquey etc)
- I'm wiping the backsides of the Jews
- I'm sucking up to them
- she gratuitoulsy refers to me as 'gentile' when there is no reason to do so unless you are a dyed-in-the-wooll jew-baiter like her

This phenomena parallels paranoid racist crap about Jews taking over the world (and the PSM), Jews as gatekeeprs, Jews living in cliquey ghettos etc etc ad nauseum

ps
nazi psmmers fuck off!
Jello Biafra and The Dead kennedys

filippo de cataldo said...

Joe90,
In case you're hard of reading, someone said it, (peoplehood) and someone (TG) agreed. Hence, the quotes:

After the long celebration of “The Invention of the Jewish People” (in which I take side with Prof. Sand), perhaps now is the time to investigate “the Invention of the Palestinian Peoplehood”. I believe that a very short research will discover that it was invented by the British occupation authorities right after WWI. Since the Philistines were absorbed by the Judeans during the kingdom of David (according to the Biblical myth, of course), there was nothing like “a Palestinian People”, until the 20th century.

Yedidya

ironically Yedidya is quite right. But for the Zionists there would have been no Palestinian people. It was the British Mandate and the Zionist settlement project which created this people who would otherwise be living in Southern Syria, Arabia or whatever.

Tony

joe90 said...

My apologies,
mary was only doubting the existence of Palestinian nationhood, I think - or was it how Palestinian national consciouseness came into being?

That's the nature of using email correspondence as evidence - it can be difficult to follow, as I have already pointed out. Something woolly-headed non-thinkers like mary like to exploit so she can then argue about whether she said 'peoplehood' or 'nation', as if there's some kind of difference between the two.

I can't say I know what 'peoplehood' is, but Mary seems to, and that it is crucially different from 'nation'.


I take it screaming mary is fed up making a complete fool of herself in public over her total lack of knowledge about a subject she claims to care so much about - hence you.

filippo de cataldo said...

Hence, me what? I come to Mary's house to use her computer when my line is down and sometimes read the discussions she is in. I am good at reading, and it looks to me that you are making the fool of yourself because the word "Peoplehood" was used in the discussion from the very first minute and it was Tony Greenstein what agreed to the "wooly concept" because he told the Zionist that he was exactly right and then went on (followed by you all) about nations later when it was exposed that his ideas are just what the Zionists always say. It is not surprising that Palestine people think it is outrageous what he says! It is outrageous, and that is all.

I am sorry if it is not easy for you to be reasonable when it is shown that you are wrong about something, but try to be big enough boy to know when it is time to stop. I say this for your own good. You can do what you want, but it is you who is misinterpreting all the time. If you read more carefully you wouldn't make such mistakes over and over again. Mary did not even discuss idea about nation or nationhood, because that is how Tony use argument to distract from his real idea.

filippo de cataldo said...

And, very strange, Joe90, you say there is first no such thing as peoplehood, then when you see Tony use it, it is good. Fine, this is not a problem.
The problem is coming after, you say, Mary acts as if there is difference between peoplehood and nation.

Now, aside from this fact that you are contradict what you just said, you really think that nation and people are interchangeable concepts? For sure this is not true. If you think so, then alas, you must feel that Jews are a nation (if they are a people). How do you define nation if it is all the same as people?

Nazi PSMers Fuck Off! said...

Filipo. Congratulations you have won an invitation to be a lifetime member of the Vacuous Pedants Club.

Are you the second wave of the CryptoNazi Light Infantry? Or has it just become a relay race?


MEATY discourse there, oof! You'll be mocking spelling and grammar next and telling us we smell of "poopoo!"


I myself have no clue what "peoplehood" is meant to be, and I have done more than average reading on nationality and ethnicity.

Does that make me "wrong"?

I love that word "wrong", you can tell so much about people's authoritarian attitudes by how they deploy it.

In your haste to pick nits and poke Joe in the eye you seemed to overlook that perhaps TG doesn't know what the phrase means either and just, as people often do, politely go along with someone's linguistic oddities?

Or have I overlooked TG's terminology legened for "Peoplehood".

I may be wrong and out-of-date, but it sounds like some daft American neologism like 'wellness'. And I assume it does to Joe as well.



But frankly anyone who befriends someone who reads and parrots NeoNazi shit (KKK, Radical Press etc.) hasn't got an opinion I personally care for. And certainly not one that it isn't on topic for an anti-racist blog.

So, why not scurry back to your Jew baiting coterie and titter under your hands like a bunch of flustered old maids criticising the angle of our hats.

Or "Do you have a point to make in relation to the subject at hand caller?"

Come back when you do. IF you ever do.

Tony Greenstein said...

Filippo is obviously in debt to Mary owing to the use of her computer, hence the need he feels to defend her. However his defence is not particularly good I'm afraid.

On the Alef list, which is a closed list for leftist academics and similar people (god knows why Mary is on it since she never contributes to discussion and just uses it to post Atzmon articles) a left-Zionist Yedidyah posted that what he called the 'invention of Palestinian peoplehood' was, like the creation of Jewish peoplehood a 20th Century phenomenon.

Although I didn't use the term 'peoplehood' preferring people or nation as being more specific I said he was write because, in essence, he is right. The Palestinians, as a nation or people, did not exist in the 19th century. Palestine itself was never a political entity, being divided between the Beirut vilayet and the Jerusalem sanjak under the Ottomans.

Ironically it was the Zionists who in their colonisation of the land created a specific Palestinian identity. Just as the Afrikaaners and Whites created a specific Black South African identity. Imperialism created nations, which in any case are a modern phenomenon.

The idea of palestinian or jewish nationhood extending back into centuries is another example of national myth being written back into history. Of course there is no such thing today as a Jewish nation and whether there is an Israeli Jewish nation is open to debate, but the idea that taking part in this debate makes me a Zionist is part of the frothing of Mary and her cohorts.

Some of us engage in intellectual debate and jousting with Zionists on Alef. Mary is simply not equipped to do anything more than make vapid accusations of 'he is a Zionist'. This is all ironic since it seems that articles about me are more important on her blog than say articles about Boycott, JNF etc. Some of us are active in support of the Palestinians and Mary is active promoting - Mary (& Atzmon of course).

But if anyone is the real Zionist it is Mary and co. who use anti-Semitism as their main weapon these days. Jewish Swindlers being Atzmon's latest little contribution to debate, which Mary is promoting of course, following up from the tale of Jewish Money buying the British Government (Peter Hain/Levy article on pepa).

It's no wonder that Rizzo has banned Joe, she's becoming ever more paranoid by the day.

Still that's what happens to these outstanding personalities!

Tony

joe90 said...

fillipo,
I did apologise for being wrong and also stated that given the nature of emails, they can be a bit woolly. That is the nature of the electronic beast in these days of IT.

Most of the time, people will expect the recipient of their electronic messege to know roughly what they are talking about. It's expected that normal written usage won't be strictly enforced when it comes to the electronic text.
People compensate for the lack of strict textual discipline, as well as for the use of new non-grammatical elements in electronic texts, such emoticons etc

I have just had a look at my dictionary and 'peoplehood' isn't listed - so what, who cares?

I jumped the gun a bit, but the fact is, mary took issue over a word that doesn't actually exist in preference to a word that does. Typical mary.

filippo de cataldo said...

I don't know what I deserve to have such insulting thrown to me for. I have the right to hold an opinion, or don't I? I don't know what is jumping the gun so I don't know what even Joe90 is saying. I know he went on a long discourse about how wooly is peoplehood and yet, the entire issue was being discussed not by Mary but instead by Tony. Why is it when Mary uses it, and in Quotes even, which is because it was a quote, she is attacked and Tony is given all benefit of the doubt of knowing it is "wooly"?

As to character assassination Tony does of Mary, I don't even need to address it, as the facts speak loud, and I don't owe to her any loyalty because she lets me use her computer! I agree with her and I use my own mind. How can Tony feel as it is normal that every one who agree to Mary is to do it out of friendship reasons. Fact is that we agree with her. To point of what her blog does, this is very ironic to come from Tony! His blog here does not attack any Zionist groups as he accuses Mary of not doing. If you look at her blog, it is clear that she exposes all the Zionists, and that is more than what happens here. But it don't matter. This is indeed a useless excuse for debate, as Mary even told me. It is only that I find it important for there to be honesty and there is no honesty in what Tony and his two fans write. Mary just read this and said she never banned Joe90.

Why to make up lies, Tony? And Mary asked to give reason why you deleted all the comments from Joe90that showed his support of her and of Atzmon? What is the reason for you to do?

Nazi PSMers Fuck Off! said...

No-one needs to assassinate Rizzo's character. She did that herself by linking to Ku Klux Klan and other right-wing extremist/racist/Nazi sites; by her parroting of White Power themes in her discourse; by her pride in having certain notorious holocaust deniers in her petition and providing free advertising for their sale of right-wing material.

All of which is well-documented and well-sourced on this blog. If you are such a great friend of hers I would council you to take the time to read the material and to have a word in her ear about how appalling it is and damaging to her reputation. But I doubt it'll work as she's been criticised heavily and openly for a while now with no visible effect.

No honesty in what we write? Again, read the blog and you'll find it well sourced. Unlike the utter crap the Rizzo & Atzmon and their lackeys post around the place.

If you are proud to stand along side all that, then I can only assume you are comfortable with being regarded also as a NeoNazi?

Why not openly declare yourselves to be in league with the American White Power movement instead of get caught sneaking out their bedroom?

You have every right to believe whatever perverse and fantastic Nazi junk you want to, we have the right the right to call it what it is.

Isn't calling a Nazi a Nazi a tad more honest than calling an Anti-Zionist a Zionist?

Tony Greenstein said...

Ok, I may have been a bit harsh on Filippo. But when you have crap like a 26 year old conviction for shoplifting thrown in your face because Atzmon can't think of any better defence for his racist outpourings, which Mary Rizzo hosts without qualms, you'll realise that referring to your using her computer might be quite a gentle gibe!

No the entire issue isn't discussed by me. Not having anything else to write about Mary has devoted her main article on her pepa blog to attacking a few, not particularly thought out comments I made, on an internal discussion list a couple of weeks ago. Please get real.

As for this blog. It was in fact set up, as it says, to expose the anti-Semites on the fringes of the Palestine Solidarity movement. It wasn't yet another pro-Palestinian blog because the struggle is not on blogland primarily. However, as needs must, more and more articles have appeared which are to do with the struggle simply because they are things that need publicity.

Or, because I wrote an article on the Jewish National Fund (most of the articles on Rizzo are opinion pieces rather than well-researched ones, hence Atzmon has articles on dozens of conspiracy and anti-semitic sites but nothing remotely academic) for the Guardian and that was the lever to organise a demonstration outside Windsor Castle. In other words what is written here becomes activity on the streets.

Rizzo doesn't lead to any activity. Her whole site is devoted to attacking Jewish anti-Zionists. You simply wouldn't get anything in the way of substance. It's all 'gatekeeping' this and 'gatekeeping' that. Ironically I've written far more detailed articles on Jewish identity, the thing Atzmon is supposed tobe so hot on, 20+ years ago and which can be accessed via the Cork PSC Database e.g. Holocaust Analogies from Return 2.

Return, which was an anti-Zionist Jewish magazine (to which Palestinians could and did contribute) was probably the best ever publication of its type. It was immediately banned by Aaronovitch of the National Union of Students YET when the Zionists tried to ban people like Roland Rance & myself, Atzmon far from condemning uses it as PROOF that we and in particular myself am guilty of the accusations the Zionists made i.e. violence etc. It is incredible but Atzmon is living proof that anti-Semitism and Zionism are cousins in kind.

And Rizzo by printing this utter nonsense, week in, week out, deliberately undermines the struggle of the Palestinians by confusing it politically.

>> don't know what I deserve to have such insulting thrown to me for. I have the right to hold an opinion, or don't I? I don't know what is jumping the gun so I don't know what even Joe90 is saying. I know he went on a long discourse about how wooly is peoplehood and yet, the entire issue was being discussed not by Mary but instead by Tony. Why is it when Mary uses it, and in Quotes even, which is because it was a quote, she is attacked and Tony is given all benefit of the doubt of knowing it is "wooly"?

As to character assassination Tony does of Mary, I don't even need to address it, as the facts speak loud, and I don't owe to her any loyalty because she lets me use her computer! I agree with her and I use my own mind. How can Tony feel as it is normal that every one who agree to Mary is to do it out of friendship reasons. Fact is that we agree with her. To point of what her blog does, this is very ironic to come from Tony! His blog here does not attack any Zionist groups as he accuses Mary of not doing. If you look at her blog, it is clear that she exposes all the Zionists, and that is more than what happens here. But it don't matter. This is indeed a useless excuse for debate, as Mary even told me. It is only that I find it important for there to be honesty and there is no honesty in what Tony and his two fans write. Mary just read this and said she never banned Joe90.

Why to make up lies, Tony? And Mary asked to give reason why you deleted all the comments from Joe90that showed his support of her and of Atzmon? What is the reason for you to do?

filippo de cataldo said...

Tony, what do you think you know Mary does? Did you know that she is the EU liaison for the PCAS? That she was the Italian delegate for Gaza Lives at the Bruxelles War Crimes Tribunal? Did you know she translated at least one report a day for PCAS and Free Gaza and if she can't do it, she arranges the Arabic translators for it? Did you know she is one of the organisers of the Hawiyya Counter Book Festival at Turin and that she is the regional organiser of the boycotting Jaffa campaign? Did you know she hosts people here in Italy from Occupied Territories so they can have doctors visits? Did you know she is the editor of five Arabic writers into English and is the editor of the Tlaxcala Palestine section? Do you know she founded Constortium per la pace tra i popoli, the major activist group in our region and it raises money for hospitals in the West Bank? She take no money for any of it, and work all hours of day and night for them. Do you know her blog has more about Palestine than any other blog from any of "you people" who puts her down? And now you are to find out she is about to launch big new site with popular activists who want to work with her. I forget other things she do, because she work on book project too, but who are you to make these lies when it is you know nothing !

No, you don't know nothing of all, so you make up all lies and lies.

You have no shame, but I also want it to know why you say she ban and you instead delete. MarK Elfs bans Mary. Why did you delete all the comments by Joe that were favourable for Mary and Gilad? What have you to hide? What are you afraid of.

And idiotic of other person who calls us Nazi's you are the most stupid of them all! Calling names is all you do and you lie. You are a disgust!

Nazi PSMers Fuck Off! said...

Show me the lies Filippo:

http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2008/02/case-of-great-peacepalestine-petition.html

http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2008/02/achtung-wendy.html

http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2008/02/atzmon-posts-articles-to-radical-press.html

All there in black in white!

What are *you* though? Are you also a less than crypto-Nazi or are you just their useful idiot?

None of anything you mention will doesn't erase these facts.

She hoodwinked 300 people on a petition, looks like she's like perhaps an awful lot more have been deceived. Including you.

Tony Greenstein said...

Yes I fear that this is the problem. Noone has lavished any attention on Mary before we did. I blame the husband!

'thecutter said... Why they can't get a life is beyond me. I've never had so much attention
"lavished" on me since my wedding day.'

Re Fillipo. Mary can translate all she wants and be delegate to as many bodies as possible, but that just demonstrates that she has no political base. She is substituting herself for mass campaigns and then when she gets frustrated she blames 'the Jews' or 'Jewish power'.

I don't incidentally call her or Atzmon 'Nazis' or 'fascists' but racists and anti-Semites. I try to be precise with my language. Certainly Atzmon is close to neo-Nazis and works with them from all accounts but he isn't one himself.

Mary has decided to give cover to anti-Semites and racists on the fringes of the Palestine solidarity. First it was Israel Shamir, before he became so weird that she decided to surreptitiously junk him (paedophile, medieval anti-Semite, blood libel, supporter of Avigdor Liebermann). Then she transferred her fixation to Gilad who has now become the idiot of her dreams and she drools over every word he writes.

My advice to Mary is pay more attention to your long suffering husband and your kids if you have them. Leave Gilad alone, he is an ego looking for recognition and try working with ordinary people.

Maybe Mary does spend her waking hours translating and running a conspiracy website, but the fact is that I am a delegate of a 4,000 strong union branch to the Annual Conference of a trade union with 1.2m members. And it is that much maligned body, the Left, which is at the forefront of supporting Boycott in this country at the same time as Mary's site is used to attack it.

Tony

PS: Yes I know Atzmon rejects the left and the right. Actually so did the Nazis. Neither communism nor capitalism but the third way! It led all the way to the gas chambers but in Atzmon's case I suspect to a rest home for the incurable narcissistic ego.

joe90 said...

Why did you delete all the comments by Joe that were favourable for Mary and Gilad?
- I don't know what this means and I'm not really that interested either.


...why you say she ban and you instead delete. MarK Elfs bans Mary
Mary Rizzo, without the slightest provocation or justifaition has banned me from commenting on her blog - that is gatekeeping, which she is more than happy to accuse others of especially if they also happen to be Jewish.

Not that I care a toss about being banned by her, as I don't comment at her antismite meeting place anyway. It's her hypocrisy I mind.

Mary Rizzo bans myself from commenting but lets through comments which debate how many gas chambers, if any, are found at Auschwitz.

Mary Rizzo also allows comments which replay the standard attempts of diminution of Nazi crimes. Namely, that the exterminationa camp and concentration camp survivors liberated at the end of the war by Allied Forces were suffering the effects of typhoid etc, brought on by lack of food, which itself was due to the effects of the Allies military campaign disrupting the German food distribution network.

This is correct of course in that the survivors were seriously affected by food shortages before liberation. So what? What is Nazi apologetics doing on a blog with 'peacepalestine' as its title?

That said, its not a well known fact but life of sub-humans under the Nazi concentration/extermination camp regime was the equivalent of a Club 18-30 holiday today. It is only the Jewish gatekeepers who are stopping the rest of us from knowing that. Mary is doing her bit for the cause in disseminating such truths, thus freeing our minds from the tyrany of the self-appointed Jewish gatekeepers (it's so easy to invent this paranoid garbage, I could continue in a similar vein for yonks, indeed, its all atzmon ever does).


Blogger comments don't have a 'homepage' facility, so this is my own version -
Scotland for Justice for Palestine

joe90 said...

Ooops, here is that link again -
Scotland for Justice for Palestine

all the best!

thecutter said...

No, Tony, the problem of your attention is that you act like a stalker. I think it is psychologially borderline pathological.

And, it is quite funny, the defense of what ever the anonymous tuff guy's stance is is just posts from your blog!

Now, if that isn't a bit like navel gazing...

Got any other support? No, don't bother to answer any question unless you explain why you are afraid to leave up any comments (and there were dozens of them, I just found the first handy seven) where Joe praises Gilad and me and slams those who smear us. Oh, yes, it was before he couldn't figure out how to read blog comments and decided to come off all strong because he can't make heads or tails of them. But still, why did you delete them? What are you trying to hide? I never censored or banned Joe. Why all the lies coming from a guy who deletes right on this very post??

thecutter said...

Lies, Joe. You have NEVER been banned from my blog, and you know it. Got any evidence to back it up??

I didn't even ban Rowan. He banned himself. I don't ban your buddy Av. I just edit out the porn spam.

Why would I ban you when you are so easy to expose? Please, don't act like a victim. You know you are lying.

joe90 said...

And I thought you said you were never coming back here Mary - as reliable as ever.

Tony, the problem of your attention is that you act like a stalker
- The problem with Tony is that he has arguments you can't answer so you get personal and call him names. I thought creepy psycho-sexual power stuff was more in atzmon's field of expertise. After all, to be an 'advanced thinker' to atzmon is adult males being allowed to molest children is it not, according to his mentor and formerly yours, Shamir?


I never censored or banned Joe.
You banned me from commenting Mary but conveniently for you, only I can see the banned notice. This is the kind of 'debate' you are more comfortable with Mary, as everyone knows - he says...she says...in an email they say - nothing of any substance.


...why you are afraid to leave up any comments (and there were dozens of them, I just found the first handy seven) where Joe praises Gilad and me and slams those who smear us.
And notice Mary now trying her usual blackmailing routine to try to shut the mouths of people whom she is unable to meet in rational debate.

Any comments I made in the past about you or atzmon are irrelevant, and I disown them completely - and they have absolutely nothing to do with your staggering ignorance about the formation of Palestinian nationalism.

As with Petion No.2 (whatever happened to Petition No.1 ?) Mary doesn't tell her supporters that she thinks the victims of the Nazis had it coming to them - how many of her 'supporters' would still want to sign knowing this?

How many of her internet jobs would Mary still have if she put on her CV that Hitler's victims deserved their treatment at the hands of the SS, the Einsatzgruppen and Nazi science?

Mary doesn't tell her supporters of atzmon's involvement with Harry's Place' blog Islamophobes and desecrators of Islam - how many of her 'supporters' would still want to sign knowing this?

Mary and atzmon imply in their petition that it's just the usual zionist lobby out to try to censor the usual plucky pro-Palestinians supporters - which is a gross mis-representation of reality and of the reasons why pro-Palestinians solidarity supporters find the activities of these two extremely unhelpful to the aims of peace and justcie for Palestinians and Jewish-Israelis.

As usual with Mary, when she gets into intellectual and moral difficulties she just uses right-wing smear tactics threateniong to blackmail people unless they stop showing her up to be the antisemite and ignoramus about Palestine that she is.

That's some argument for someone who claims to be part of a solidarity movement, which is dedicated to upholding the highest ideals of mankind - shut up and stop criticising me or I'll blackmail you.

As you can see from her 2 emails its all about her own opinions and her own little cyber world she inhabits. She's welcome to it, of course, but what has it got to do with Palestinians I've no idea and neither has Mary, because she has no arguments to defend her conduct - just the dregs in the bottom of the barrel of right-wing personalised smear tactics, and gross mis-representation of reality.

And unlike yourself Mary, I'm able to see my mistakes when pointed out to me, aplogise if need be (as I had to repeatedly to your pal filippo who took it all in bad grace), and correct them appropriately.

Unlike you or atzmon Mary, I'm not perfect and I am just a sliable as the next person to error - and unlike yourself or atzmon, I am able to correct my errors as this is all part of lifelong learning. So if I showed any weakness or doubts or changes of mind, they're only proof that I am open minded, open to reason and that I am human.

Tony Greenstein said...

Mary, your are a total fuckwit.

You first promise not to post here again and then do exactly that, after your little placeman Philippo found himself out of his depth.

I don't post to your sewer on principle and yet I'm accused of 'stalking'. Reality never seems to get a look in when Rizzo gets on stage.

Joe says he's banned from the pepa sewer and I believe him because Mary even when you think you're telling the truth you are lying. It's like when Atzmon says, you won't find a thing about Jewish race in my writings and, lo and behold, what do you find? The very next sentence is about ethnic racial activists.

And you've said it yourself if we take a minus to your pluses. You banned Joe because obviously you do find him difficult to 'expose'. Which is why when I exposed all the crap Atzmon came out with he had to try and dredge up my past because he couldn't deal with the present.

But then Rizzo asks 'how much support have you got'. She obviously doesn't get it. Who cares about what support each of us have? I've never tried to marshall support behind myself because I'm in support of the Palestinians. It's Mary who has to keep trying to get Palestinians to support her because noone else will. And being kind people they often do, even when they don't read what they're supporting.

Add a few people in the latter stages of senile dementia and hey presto, Mary Rizzo is the most supported person in the world!!

Pathetic really Mary but that's what happens when you think you can fight racism with racism.

lotsa love

Tony

thecutter said...

Why did I come back? Because if I don't visit your site, no one except Joe and the alter ego of Tony does :-) He might be strange, but it's better to invent a character than talk to himself. Seems like this is the only active corner of the blog and Tony might not want it to die out!

But I'm not here to respond to Joe's inane drivel, (blackmail? do you know what the term even means?) I asked why Tony was claiming he's no censor or gatekeeper, but when he sees the varied and interesting nature of Joe's commenting, he thinks it is important to delete it, without an explanation much less. Did Joe ask him to? Or did Tony think that it was necessary. I believe that I would be admitted the right to know why it is deleted upon my request, as Tony limits himself to deletion in extreme circumstances. Tony, famously, on my blog even wrote this:
Errata.

First sentence should read 'when Lenni Brenner spoke'.

I also didn't 'walk away' from a HP debate, I came to it. But Mikey still hasn't explained how Kastner can testify against Eichmann at Nuremburg when Eichmann wasn't there!

But if he wants to defend the quisling Kastner, then who am I to disagree?

I will not be going on to Bognador's blog as he is an offensive and thick right-winger who puts his boring constitutionalist father to shame.

If Mikey wishes to post on this blog and Mary agrees, preferably in a separate thread, then I am happy to respond, as I in fact did to Harry's Place but I assume it was deleted.

And Mark Elf runs his blog in his own way. It has nothing to do with me and if I had time to run a blog I would only delete overt racist or fascist commentaries.

Tony Greenstein
Tony Greenstein | 02.28.07 - 4:05 am | #

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so Joe wrote overt racist or fasict commentary, we are to presume.

Back to Joe, to repeat that he has been banned from my blog is lying. He was NEVER banned from my blog! Contrary to his claim, I indeed DO see who is banned and all bans that I have made in the past, and there is a list of every IP number. Joe's is not there, unless he had been posting as Israelite who was making death threats and the various porno spammers. In that case, yes, he was banned.

Any declaration of his to the contrary is false and he knows it. And why in the world would I ban him anyway? His arguments are generally scream fests, but still, he hasn't threatened anyone's life and he is not posting pornography, so there is no other reason to ban him. Although I find it interesting that he seems to take no offence to Av comments being on a blog comment thread. Anyway, Av loves you both now, so you can see who your real allies are.

Just to set that record straight. Joe is wrong about everything else here, so why not lie about being banned too? Tony as well speaks with fork tongue. And they still act as if we invented names, forced people to sign support or in some way duped them. You wish it were true! On the Pls blogs you are considered as what you are, and that must be hard to live with for such a self-lover like you.

tonygreenstein@yahoo.com said...

Well if Joe isn't banned I'm sure he'll be happy to post again and test that fact! Just in case there was a misunderstanding.

Last time I checked my tongue was much the same as normal, no fork. I wasn't aware that I said you invented names rather that people appeared who hadn't signed or didn't know what they signed or a mixture of both. Fact is that Mary's embarrassment of a petition - and it really is a joke among those who've heard about it (not many it's true) - is probably best dropped. 'Outstanding personalities' indeed. A little modesty from Mary wouldn't go amiss and maybe a double helping of humble pie too!

But anyway so nice Mary has decided to keep us company here even if the 'liar pants on fire' routine is becoming a little jaded.

joe90 said...

Mary's paranoia can't leave her in peace.

Mary says -
But I'm not here to respond to Joe's inane drive
But no sooner said than Mary devotes a whole section of her own personalised paranoid universe to yours truly.

And her mendacity continues. Maybe Mary thinks people are as stupid as she is and we won't notice these obvious inconsistencies. I mean, if you can't trust her to keep her word even in a short comment, what else can you take seriously about her?

This comment by Mary is a sample of the archive of paranoid dirt that she keeps on people. Nothing goes to waste.

Remember to tell your current crop of petitioners Mary, that once they suss out how ignorant you are about Palestinian history, and are merely using Palestinians to peddle your antisemitism, that you will use anything they have said to you, in private or public, against them as part of a smear campaign to shut them up.

Joe is wrong about everything else here, so why not lie about being banned too?
- Yes we know Mary.
On this very thread your ignorance of the formation of Palestinian nationalism has been proven - which means then, by your own lights, that you did ban me.

This is the trivial level of your mendacity Mary. Even when the evidence is in front of you and it can't be denied, and other people can read it for themselves, you pretend otherwise.

so Joe wrote overt racist or fasict commentary, we are to presume.
- Smear away Mary. It won't get you anywhere.
I am not the one who persistently defends atzmon when he says that Hitler's victims deserved their fate because they weren't popular enough as you do at the start of this comments thread, just for instance.

thecutter said...

Oh, Joe, I did actually ignore the inane ranting about me being antisemitic and supporting Nazis, I just point to the fact that you never were banned by me and you can't prove you were, and I have the list of every IP number banned, and yours is not on it.

I also still wonder why Tony has a set of double standards: He is no gatekeeper and "if he had time for a blog" (which he does and it's not about Palestinian rights, and it couldn't be, since he believes they were not a people before the British and the Zionists made them so) he would ONLY delete comments that were racist and fascist commentaries. Well, he deleted Joe's comments. What are we supposed to make of that?

As well as being extremely "tough" about not dealing with people who don't use their names, as if others are supposed to take their anonymous crap seriously, here is more stuff for your erudition. Straight from my blog! It's all Tony this time. ******

And when he asks repeated silly questions along the lines of 'why did they ban you at x, y or z' regardless of whether it is true, then I don't take them seriously. The simple answer is go and ask the banners, they will be in the best position to know, bearing in mind that Zionists love to ban what they cannot destroy.
Tony Greenstein | 03.06.07 - 8:42 pm | #

Lenin and others had good reason to use pseudonyms, since they were revolutionaries. But Mikey has never fought for anything other than a good meal in a restaurant, unless of course he considers that he has an identity of interest with Stalin and Pol Pot. One thing is for certain and that is I don't debate with people who aren't even honest enough to say who they are.


For the last time, I don't debate with someone who doesn't have the honesty, or courage, to even reveal his identity. The fact that Mikey proposes getting someone else to put their name forward demonstrates that he must have something to hide.

Tony Greenstein
Tony Greenstein | 03.07.07 - 7:44 pm | #

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So Mikey, are you going to tell us why you remain anonymous and yet willing to get others to take the blame for your nonsense? What have you got to hide?

Tony Greenstein
Tony Greenstein | 03.08.07 - 3:03 am | #

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How interesting. 3 anonymous Zionist hacks disputing the fact that Zionism was a movement of collaboration and none can reveal their identity. Can't imagine why?!!!

Tony Greenstein
Tony Greenstein | 03.08.07 - 3:05 am | #


Now, that was a bit of Tony. As to his opinion of the petition, of course he hates it! A load of people tell him to quit smearing if he wants anyone to take him for anything but a Zionist, and what does he do? He opens a smear blog and smears day and night as if this is his total obsession. It would give a NORMAL person food for thought. A bit of self-reflection. Tony, it's ok to be unpopular. Fighting for Palestinian rights never made anyone popular, but at least don't make things worse for yourself if you really somewhere within you care about them. You put so many people down and scoff at their requests. Your bragging about getting the union you are affiliated with the lift Redress because "you say so" speaks volumes as it is. You have lost any residual esteem you think you might have had, and you are oblivious to it. That doesn't matter, but you keep making things worse for yourself by your obsessions. People actually do take notice.

Tony Greenstein said...

Mary is really becoming obsessional. Apart from posting here when she promised not to she now posts something I put on her blog 10+ months ago. But I haven't posted anything since then (or for a long time as I can't remember exactly when).

And I know Mary would like me to hate her petition but the fact is that I don't at all, for the following reasons:
i. Because it is a useful compendium of all the nuts and anti-Semites at the fringes of the PS movement.

ii. Because it shows what the agenda of the 'outstanding personalities' are, viz. to build solidarity with themelves.

And as not one real live human being has mentioned it to me, and I've been on 3 pickets in the past fortnight, i.e. about 90-100 people, it is frankly pathetic and irrelevant other than in the mind of Mary. Noone has even heard of it outside blogland. It's important only to Mary because she needs some comforting since she can't respond to my criticisms.

iv. It provides amusement as when Mary assures us that The Radical Press who signed are absolutely bona fide and kosher!

But Mary is right for once vs Joe. He can't prove that he's been banned because Mary controls the blog from Italy and unless he obtained a court order to peruse the IP addresses, and without a cause of action he can't do that anyway, there is no way to definitively prove one way or another. But if it is a question of who to believe then that is another matter. I believe Joe, based on my previous experience of both people. Sorry Mary.

Tony

joe90 said...

I just point to the fact that you never were banned by me and you can't prove you were...
- I was banned by you, but I couldn't care less about you and your antisemite meeting place, or who comments there - but I am only concerned about solidarity with Palestinians and the deleterious effects of your antisemitism.

You claim you have evidence Mary to prove you haven't banned me, but you don't. Only the company who runs your blog has that definitive evidence, as TG says. So, once again, you are talking nonsense.

Mary has evidence against others who aren't as popular as she is. This evdience comes from the same place that proved Tony Greenstein was a zionist, and whom Mary claimed didn't know what he was talking about regarding the development of Palestinian national consciousness.
Unfortunately, it turned out you were the one with egg on your face Mary - after going to all the trouble of changing the topic of the thread, and digging up an email from somewhere, in order to publicly confront your potential victim with definitive evidence about their zionism.

Hilariously, I see you Mary is still determined to make a public spectacle of her ignorance, over this very subject. The devleopment of Palestinian nationalism has been so much discussed and written about and yet you don't seem to have ever come across any of it!


However, some of us actually care enough about Palestinians, rather than ourselves and how popular our own ego is, to take the time to find out important facts about Palestinians, and their place in the development of historical processes and ideas about history.

I think I have already drawn many important points about Mary's fixation with 'popularity' and umpopularity.

I have noticed Mary mirrors quite closely what others claim about her. Now she says others are smearing her and this proves they are zionists.

Mary seems to have an amazing archive of evidence, if needed, of personal emails and saved comments.
Saving them all up for a rainy day Mary are we?
Mary can produce this 'evidence' in order to hijack any rational debate where she is getting shown up for the ignorant antisemite that she is.

thecutter said...

You guys are funny! Keep it up, blackmail, hijacking... calling the people who are clearly aware of what and who you are "all the nuts and anti-Semites at the fringes of the PS movement." Nice!! I am sure they appreciate it, and this adds to your esteem. One bit of advice, if you want to have any capacity of working WITH Palestinians (do you?) you have to learn to serve and respect them. Respect even the difference in opinion they have. But this is far beyond you.

Of course you don't respect them! And you call them nuts and anti-Semites. Good! It's good that they know what you think, and they will. So, keep it up, Tony, you are paiting yourself into a corner, along with your best buddy, who you each feed disinformation to such as the lies this entire post is based on! You are not even normal enough to correct any of it, although you know you are stating falsehood. This is something I'd be cautious about, if I were you. Your buddy is keeping a low profile after his public shame. Oh, you remember who... the Boycott opponent (much more so than Gilad is, if he is, and this is admitted by your friend as well.) and resident "psychotic" according to two elderly persons he now calls Anti-Semites, (even though one of them was a prisoner in Auschwitz) know your true colours. Not to mention, I do treasure the emails Norman Finkelstein wrote to me about him!

I come back here not to "debate" because Joe and you both climb all over mirrors after the amazing performance you have made here. I just comment on the behaviour you adopt here, since you have no arguments: name calling, guilt by "assumed" association, straw man fallacy, and claiming I have violated your rights, when instead it is YOU Tony who have gone against decent standards that even YOU claim to adhere to, and Joe knows completely well what he says is total bunk! Joe would never have been banned, he's too useful and his amazing flip flops should never be hidden or smotherd. They make great reading!

The rest is just your flailing about. And of course, keep on saying I banned you Joe... you know that I didn't so your own lies will have to bother you alone, if indeed you do have some remnant of conscience or honesty left.

Oh, Tony, you have posted hundreds of things on my blog.... creating an archive of your thought. Good for a rainy day, or a blog for the two of you!

Tony Greenstein said...

The problem with Mary is not only is she quite contrary but she promises not to come back and then does exactly that!! Being too nice a host I don't of course hold her to her word.

But with the greatest of respect Mary I don't need your advice in how to talk to Palestinians or work with them. Do it all of the time but by being open and forthright and discussing things whilst not hesitating to say where I agree and disagree. Rather than flatulent sugary praise people appreciate honest opinions not least about the political choices they make. And whilst supporting e.g. their right to elect whomsoever they want I don't hide my criticisms of Hamas and the (lack of) alternative the Palestinians had at the last elections.

Really much as Edward Said said if you read Nur Massallah's book on the Bible and Zionism.

When I referred to the nuts and freaks who signed the 'petition' I referred to the Eisens and Blankforts not those Palestinians like Zaid who are confused and find it difficult to say no to someone who says they are helping them (& who certainly publicises what little she does).

But I welcome the 'petition' because it shows Mary exactly where you are at. Solidarity with Mary & Atzmon, the 'outstanding personalities' of the decade. You couldn't make it up could you?

Tony

joe90 said...

One bit of advice, if you want to have any capacity of working WITH Palestinians (do you?) you have to learn to serve and respect them. Respect even the difference in opinion they have...
- (I'll try ignoring the sickly sweet odour of ego-mad Mary's revolting unctiousness)
Like implying Rashid Khalidi, the Palestinian historian, is bonkers just like myself perhaps Mary - in contrast to pro-zionist historians whose anti-Palestinian propaganda you freely agree with and are more than happy to disseminate.

Respect Palestinians, as in, using them as sandbags and human shields to hide your antisemitism behind Mary?

Learning how to deliberately set Palestinians and non-Palestinians at loggerheads to one another Mary?

You have to learn and respect Palestinians, hence the reason Mary says the victims of the Nazis had it coming to them because the weren't popular enough (Mary is fixated with 'popularity'). This is a strange way of serving Palestinians, by repeating pro-zionist propaganda and backing it up by using pro-zionist Yad Vashim historians.

I come back here not to "debate".... I just comment on the behaviour you adopt here, since you have no arguments:
- That would be gatekeeping Mary, something you claim only the Jews do. Claiming there is nothing to debate and that commenteers on AZaAS have no arguments is gatekeeping, as both these claims are lies.


So, unlike Mary who just makes claims which are obvioulsy false, let me reiterate the main points of what Mary has been unable to explain on this thread...
Joe asked -
So for the umpteenth time Mary -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

23 March 2008 18:41

Unable to answer the above repeated query, Mary introduces the usual rabbits out of her hat in order to change the subject, 2 emails where she proves conclusively that TG is a zionist, or so she thinks.
Here are Mary's demand for answers, soon to turn to silence as she reveals she has no idea about Palestinian nationalism and its historical development -
Please, don't avoid the question this time. It matters how you respond to this. I imagine
01 April 2008 21:24

ps
Joe would never have been banned, he's too useful and his amazing flip flops should never be hidden or smotherd. They make great reading!
- As I never comment on Mary's antisemitic sewer of a blog, I can't be that useful to it then.
Obviously this claim comes from the same place as Mary's other claims, comments and emails. She keeps them all handy in a top-hat and produces them in lieu of actual knowledge about the subject at hand gleaned from serious reading material about serious subjects about the real world.

..amazing flip flops..
- A right-wing phrase if there ever was one.
What you mean Mary is that I'm not an antisemite and no longer able to tolearte your anti-palestinian antisemitism. Only an egoist like you would, obsessed with your own 'popularity', could ever imagine that you have any sort of a serious intellectual position that anyone could 'flip-flop' against!
Mary Rizzo, an intellectual - now that is funny.
What an empty pretentious half-wit you are.