Showing posts with label Free Speech on Israel. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Free Speech on Israel. Show all posts

27 April 2018

Jewish Voice for Labour Surrenders to Wes Streeting’s White Parliamentary Lynch Mob


Abandoning Marc Wadsworth to the Zionist witch-hunt and the lies of Ruth Smeeth is both shameful and counter-productive

Wes Streeting and the all-White group of MPs accompanies Smeeth

When Jewish Voice for Labour was formed last summer I welcomed it whilst warning of the dangers of not having clear politics, strategy or direction. I opposed not only its two tiers of membership – Jewish and non-Jewish – but its refusal to squarely support the Palestinians’ fight for justice and the Right of Return of Palestinian refugees.

Although most JVL members are opposed to Zionism there is a belief that some things are best left unsaid.  The group is also unclear as to whether its main purpose is as some kind of Jewish cultural formation or whether it is primarily a political organisation.

Opposition to the anti-Semitism witch hunt or the affiliation and privileged status of the Jewish Labour Movement was not mentioned in its founding statement.  Nor does it say anything about about the racist nature of the Israeli state. I wrote a number of articles warning of the consequences of not being clear or honest such as Timidity is not a Strategy, and Jewish Voice for Labour & the Politics of Self-Indulgence - Nothing to say on Palestine or Zionism. 

For the past few weeks we have had a relaunch of the anti-Semitism campaign.  There is no doubt that this is intended both to damage the chances of Labour in the local elections and also to act as a prelude to the removal of Corbyn himself.
The Zionist demonstration was an anti-Labour hate fest with far-Right racist Zionists dominating - according to the mythology Labour is full of Jew haters.  A number of those present work with fascist groups yet these are never called out.  Jonathan Arkush himself has spoken to rallies of the openly fascist JDL
The campaign began with the affair of the mural and then an absurd ‘anti-racist’ demonstration on March 26th outside Parliament by about 500 Zionists.  It is probably the first and last ‘anti-racist’ demonstration which the DUP and Norman Tebbit attend!  To its credit the JVL organised a counter-demonstration but as the attacks have mounted JVL have gone quiet.

This week another of the ‘anti-Semitism’ victims, Marc Wadsworth, was up before Maggi Cosins and the National Kangaroo Court.  To date both Cyril Chilson and me have been expelled.  The allegations by Ruth Smeeth MP that she was subject to anti-Semitic comments at the Chakrabarti press conference by Marc are a complete lie as can be seen in the video.  Nothing was said that was remotely anti-Semitic.
Chris Williamson MP is one of the few Labour MPs to stand up against the McCarthyism of the Zionist Jewish Labour Movement
Smeeth is used to lying as a profession. She was a paid worker for the Israeli propagandist organisation BICOM, before becoming an MP, see: Former Israel lobby spin doctor aims for seat in UK parliament
Last week Wes Streeting, a right-wing anti-Corbyn MP appealed to MPs to form a posse which would accompany Smeeth to the venue where she would give her perjured evidence.  Streeting stated that Smeeth was

giving evidence against Mark Wadsworth – the guy who abused her at the antisemitism inquiry launch – and we expect there to be a protest outside against her. 
Marc, as anyone who watched the recent BBC programmes The Murder that Changed a Nation on the Stephen Lawrence murder, would know, played an integral role in the campaign.  Marc has been one of Britain’s best known Black anti-racists.  It is a scandal that he has been suspended for nearly 2 years because of allegations by a supporter of the world’s only Apartheid state, Israel. 

It is also scandalous that JVL took a decision not to support the lobby of Marc’s hearing. JVL didn’t want to be seen to oppose Streeting’s all-white group of right-wing MPs.  In essence they took fright. This is sheer political cowardice.  It is also the road to disaster.  JVL seem to believe that if they are good boys and girls then Jeremy will look kindly on them and rearrange the now postponed meeting he was going to have with Jewish groups.  This is an utter illusion.   Despite this a few individual JVL members came along, including Glynn Secker.

The purpose of the witch-hunt is not to expel Jackie, Marc or myself.  It is either to remove or neuter Corbyn.  Far from abstaining from support those of us fighting the witch hunt JVL should be in the forefront of the fight.  Whilst the Zionists are on the rampage JVL decided to do nothing.
Originally Free Speech on Israel, which consists of many of the same people as JVL, was set up because of the weaponisation of anti-Semitism.  It would appear that they have given up on free speech.  Likewise the Jewish Socialists Group, which worked alongside Black anti-racist activists like Marc, have kept quiet over the witchhunt and appear to have given up on socialism and Jewish Voice for Labour seem to have lost their voice altogether.

However Labour Against the Witch-hunt went ahead with the protest despite Corbyn’s office contacting Marc and asking him to call off the protest.  Quite rightly Marc refused.  The idea that keeping quiet and saying nothing will aid Jeremy Corbyn is absurd.  The purpose of the witch-hunt and the false accusations of anti-Semitism is to remove Corbyn.  Jackie, Marc and me are simply collateral damage. Saying nothing will strengthen not weaken the Right.
President JONATHAN ARKUSH, BOD - addressing rally Grosvenor SQ. July '16 where JDL openly wore KAHANE shirts. 
Far from abstaining from protests we should be redoubling our efforts to reselect creatures like Streeting, Smeeth, Berger and Ryan.  The Right will not give up and appeasing them is likely to destroy the Corbyn project and the prospect of him becoming Prime Minister.  It is time that people realise and understand that the goal of Streeting, John Mann and co. is to prevent Corbyn becoming Prime Minister. 

Last June’s General election was a set back for them which is why we have seen the false anti-Semitism campaign being stepped up.

When Streeting and his 20 white racists reached Church House, the venue where the Kangaroo Court was sitting, it was they who felt intimidated and Streeting could be seen bleating about how terrible it was that people had exercised their right to free speech.

It is excellent that Chris Williamson MP, despite the pressures on him, not least by people like Barry Gardiner, refused to be cowed and gave evidence in support of Marc Wadsworth.  Clive Lewis MP has also given Marc his support.  The decision of the JVL leaves friendly MPs in an even more exposed position.  We had 70 people on the demonstration as it was but with the support of JVL and FSOI we could have had even more.

We have a situation where the representatives of the Israeli state – Labour Friends of Israel and the JLM, the ‘sister party’  of the openly racist Israeli Labour Party, operate openly inside the Labour Party. 
The Israeli Labour Party, of which the JLM is the British representatives, is an anti-socialist racist party that supports the deportation of non-Jewish African refugees from Israel
In May 2012, the ILP’s previous leader Isaac Herzog wrote an opinion piece arguing that Eritreans in Israel didn’t deserve protection as refugees. Today it openly supports Netanyahu’s attempts to deport Israel’s 40,000 Black African refugees for the crime of being Black and not Jewish.

Last week the new leader of the Israeli Labour Party, Avi Gabbay issued a letter cutting his links with Jeremy Corbyn because of ‘anti-Semitism’. The ILP’s previous leader Herzog declared that his nightmare was waking up to find that Israel had a Palestinian Prime Minister and 61 Palestinian Members of Israel’s Knesset.  Herzog also spoke about the false impression that the ILP were ‘Arab Lovers’.

 Gabbay has gone one better.  He declared that he would not join a coalition with members of the Joint List, the representatives of Palestinian citizens of Israel. An Palestinian party has never been part of a government in Israel. It is an unwritten Zionist convention that Arab parties do not take part in the government of a Jewish state.  

In conjunction with Labour’s Right, supporters of Israel and the Zionist movement have waged an ongoing campaign of destabilisation. The pretext is ‘Anti-Semitism’. The hollowness of this campaign is shown by the demands of Jonathans Arkush and Goldstein of the Board of Deputies of British Jews and Jewish Leadership Council. 
The Zionists accuse Livingstone of 'antisemitism' for saying that Hitler supported Zionism - above is an extract from Zionist historian David Cesarani's book which says exactly the same!
Top of the ‘anti-Semites’ Arkush and Goldstein want expelled from Labour are Jackie Walker and Ken Livingstone.  In the Evening Standard they wrote that they wanted expelled the ‘serial offenders Ken Livingstone and Jackie Walker.’  

Jackie Walker is a Black-Jewish socialist and long standing anti-racist.  Ken Livingstone pioneered anti-racism in local government.  It is clear beyond doubt that their ‘crimes’ aren’t anti-Semitism or hatred of Jews but support for the Palestinians and opposition to Zionism.  Not only is Jackie Walker and Ken Livingstone under attack but so is Chris Williamson MP. In the Jewish News of 19th March Arkush says regarding Chris speaking alongside Jackie that:
Sadly, this is the kind of behaviour we have come to expect from Chris Williamson. We called for him to be sacked last year from the shadow cabinet over outrageous comments labelling claims of antisemitism in Labour ‘a dirty lowdown trick’.

Ivor Caplin, Southern organiser for the Jewish Labour Movement, a Junior Defence Minister under Blair and a war criminal in his own right went even further:  ‘Mr Williamson has decided to take a leaf out of Ken Livingstone’s book... If he can’t stop, he needs to go.”

Arkush is a right-wing Tory, who welcomed Donald Trump to power despite the anti-Semitism of his campaign.  According to Dana Milbank in the Washington Post Anti-Semitism is no longer an undertone of Trump’s campaign. It’s the melody. See Trump Rolls Out Anti-Semitic Closing Ad for an analysis.  That however does not disturb Arkush because these anti-Semites are also pro-Israel.

Of course if you claim that the Zionist anti-Semitism claims are false or weaponised then that too is anti-Semitic!  However in the same breath they tell us that Zionism is a part of Jewish identity and to oppose the ‘Jewish’ state is anti-Semitic.  Or in the words of the Jewish Chronicle’s Editor Stephen Pollard Jeremy Corbyn made ‘the odd assertion that anti-Zionism is not antisemitic’.

1 October 2017

Open Letter to the Lying Leader of Brighton and Hove City Council, Warren Morgan

It’s Time to Make Way for an Honest and Truthful Politician

Lies come easily to Warren Morgan
30 September 2017

Cllr. Warren Morgan,
Leader Brighton and Hove City Council,
Town Hall
Bartholomew Square
BRIGHTON
BN1 1JA

To:       warren.morgan@brighton-hove.gov.uk          @warrenmorgan 
Dear Cllr. Morgan,
Sir Henry Wotton is famous for his observation that ‘an ambassador is an honest gentleman sent to lie abroad for the good of his country.’  Given that you are not a diplomat what is it that makes you feel the need to lie so often?
You have been widely quoted as saying that Labour’s conference will not be welcome in the city in the future because of ‘anti-Semitism’.  You are reported in Brighton and Hove News as having ‘singled out a local campaigner Tony Greenstein’.  You are quoted on Facebook as saying that:

 ‘We have the prominent activist and suspended Labour Party member Tony Greenstein here, who indeed was present at the fringe meeting where it was suggested that Holocaust denial should be allowed. His expulsion, in my view, is long overdue.’
The only possible interpretation of your remarks is that I am responsible for what a speaker at the meeting I attended allegedly said. Otherwise why call for my expulsion? What you are engaged in is the McCarthyist tactic of guilt-by-association. Unsurprisingly Joe McCarthy was also anti-Semitic.
The speaker, Miko Peled said that ‘‘Israel, Zionism, even the holocaust  - can these subjects not be discussed, yes or no?’  Nothing Mr Peled said disputed the holocaust. He was merely saying that all subjects, ‘even the Holocaust’ should be open for discussion. That is in fact the current legal position in the UK.  Of course we could bring in legislation to make Holocaust denial illegal, as in Germany and Austria.  However given the electoral success of far-Right, neo-Nazi parties, Alternative for Germany and the Freedom Party in both countries, this doesn’t seem a particular wise route to go down. 
All that Miko Peled was doing was to say discussion about the Holocaust is legitimate free speech.  To twist this into support for Holocaust denial is a prime example of how anti-Semitism has been weaponised by supporters of Zionism and the Israeli state.  It demonstrates your contempt for those who died at the hands of Hitler’s regime – Jewish and non-Jewish.
Unlike you I am Jewish. Unlike you half my father’s family was murdered in the gas chambers of Treblinka. For you to use the Holocaust, of both Jews and non-Jews, up to 5 million of whom also died in the Nazi concentration camps, as a cheap political device in order to gain a political advantage over your opponents in the Labour Party is despicable.  If anyone in Brighton Labour Party is anti-Semitic it is you and your followers. 
It is noticeable that you and your political soul mates have nothing to say about racism against the Roma, yet proportionately just as many Roma died in the camps as Jews. Racism against the Roma today is far higher than that against Jews today but it isn’t so politically advantageous.
As you well know I have often been the recipient of this vile Holocaust denial propaganda, as evidenced by the Argus article of 16th October 1993 as well as physical attacks by fascist groups such as the National Front. A cursory search of the Argus archive would turn up numerous articles e.g. Adam Trimmingham’s review of my book ‘Fighting Fascism in Brighton’  I confess that in 40 years of opposing fascism and racism in Brighton and Hove your name has never once come up.
My reasons for opposing Zionism and the Israeli state are the same as my opposition to fascism and racism in Britain and Apartheid in South Africa. Your use of the Jewish Holocaust for transparently cheap political purposes is contemptible.
Mega Momentum rally before last year's Brighton Labour Party AGM
Last year you lied about spitting at the local Labour Party AGM, because the candidates you supported lost a democratic election.  This year your friends had no traction at Labour Party conference and once again you have resorted to dishonest political gamesmanship, even if it is at the expense of stirring up and exploiting anti-Semitism.
The sophisticated wit of former Brighton councillor Craig Turton endorsed by Cllr Morgan
I realise that you may find this difficult to understand but even the worst political foes try to maintain a certain level of political decorum.  That however seems to elude you.  On your Facebook page there is a comment from former Brighton councillor Craig Turton:
‘Well said Warren Morgan! Greenstein is a poisonous piece of shit - the sooner he's kicked out of the Party the better! - Thursday at 10:09
Instead of admonishing Turton you respond ‘Thanks Craig, appreciate that. Hope you are well.’
It is clear that you are unfit for any public office, both because of your display of arrogant ignorance and your inability to conduct an appropriate public discourse.  You are clearly unfit to be the leader of Brighton and Hove City Council.  Singling out and defaming one Brighton Jewish resident by name is inciting hate crime. If you have an ounce of decency you will resign of your own accord.
It would also be interesting to know with what authority you wrote your letter and on behalf of whom.

Yours truly,
 Tony Greenstein 
Background
Councillor Warren Morgan is a supporter of Progress.  In 2015 he supported Liz Kendall, the most right-wing candidate for leader of the Labour Party.  Last year he supported Owen Smith.

In the wake of Jeremy Corbyn’s victory in the leadership elections Warren Morgan, Peter Kyle MP and the Labour councillors have felt ever more beleaguered.  The 3 Brighton & Hove parties contain a massive 8,000+ members.  Last July 2nd 600 people came out to vote at the AGM of the local District Labour Party.  When  Momentum supported candidates won with majorities of 2-1, Warren Morgan promptly invented an alleged spitting incident, backed up by another councillor Emma Daniels, which led to the national Labour Party and the Chair of the Disputes Committee, Anne Black, suspending the party.  Morgan thought nothing of lying through his teeth if it gave him a political advantage.  Last week he did so again.
Morgan even makes light of suggestions of a conspiracy - you don't need to be a conspiracy theorist to know that sometimes there are conspiracies - when the CCTV footage was examined and the staff member interviewed it was clear that Warren Morgan was a liar
Morgan was confident that City College would never release CCTV footage but when it did he remained silent
 The right-wing officials in the party did their best to uphold Morgan’s allegations and hatchet woman Katherine Buckingam was sent down by Iain McNicol from Labour nationally to ‘investigate’ the allegations.  Despite her best efforts, Buckingham found it impossible to find any evidence to back up Warren Morgan’s lies and when the video tape of the alleged incident was produced, courtesy of City College, where the AGM was held, Buckingham refused to view it!  [see Warren Morgan, Emma Daniels & The Spitting Incident That Never Was, My response to Katherine Buckingham, the Labour Party’s head of disputes and discipline]

At last week’s Labour Party Conference the Left was in a large numerical majority.  It is clear from the reception given to anti-Zionist Jewish speakers at the Conference, Naomi Wimborne-Iddrissi and Leah Levane, that Conference was unwilling to put up with more fake allegations of anti-Semitism.  Both received standing ovations.   The loudest cheer of Corbyn’s speech was reserved for his references to Palestine.  The Labour Friends of Israel and Jewish Labour Movement were not best pleased.

Both the Free Speech on Israel and Jewish Voices for Labour meetings were packed to the rafters.  So an allegation was invented and I have no doubt that Zionist activists pored over the footage they took secretly of the former meeting to find anything that could possibly discredit the speech of Miko Peled, an American-Israeli and son of an Israeli General Mattiyahu Peled.  When at one point Peled said that everything, including the Holocaust, should be discussed, this was transformed by the spin merchants and cynical manipulators of the Apartheid lobby into a call for Holocaust denial!
Warren Morgan, to whom lying comes as easily as his expenses claims, agreed to write a letter to Iain McNicol threatening the Labour Party with not being allowed to hold a conference in Brighton.  In other words for the sake of his Zionist and Progress friends he was willing to sacrifice millions of pounds in tourism money in Brighton.

Once again the fake anti-Semitism allegations have been used as the last throw of a desperate and discredited group of cynical and dishonest politicians.  And because I happened to be in the same room as 150-200 other people and even worse I spoke at the meeting, I am therefore guilty of Holocaust denial too and should be expelled immediately if not sooner.  I have no doubt that people will clearly see what has happened as the actions of desperate right-wingers trying to use the issue of anti-Semitism in order to halt the advance of the Left. 


I have therefore penned an Open Letter to Warren Morgan calling on him to do the only decent thing in his life so far and that is to resign as Leader of the Labour Group and better still as a councillor altogether.  To paraphrase Shakespeare’s Macbeth, nothing in his life would become him like the leaving of his office.

Tony Greenstein

27 September 2017

The false 'anti-Semitism' allegations at Labour Conference have one purpose only - to destabilise Corbyn's leadership

One Lie Too Many - Warren Morgan, Brighton's Council leader should be expelled for falsely alleging that supporters of the Palestinians & FSOI are holocaust deniers


When it comes to lying, Cllr. Warren Morgan has form
The Zionists must be getting desperate when they have to resort to blatant lies about holocaust denial at a fringe Labour Party meeting held by Free Speech on Israel.

The fake news allegations, from Wes Streeting MP, Warren Morgan and the Zionist Jewish Labour Movement that Free Speech on Israel or myself believe that Holocaust denial is a topic worthy of discussion is a blatant lie.  At no time has anyone ever suggested this. 

Last Monday there was a packed fringe meeting of Free Speech on Israel at the Friends Meeting House in Brighton.  The room was so packed that people were listening in the garden.  All the speakers at the top table including the Chair Jenny Manson were Jewish.
Approximately half of those in the audience were Jewish.  All the speakers were Jewish. Nobody noticed anything about Holocaust denial because there was nothing. This whole story in the mass media about ‘anti-Semitism’ is a wholly contrived example of false flag news.  Complete Black Propaganda.

I spoke at the meeting and my main message was that we should not be defensive over the allegations of anti-Semitism.  On the contrary it is the far-Right, Breitbart News, Richard Spencer of the alt-Right and fascist parties led by people such as Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Herr Strache of Austria and of course our very own BNP and EDL who are avidly pro-Israel and pro-Zionist. 
Steve Bannon - Trumps anti-Semitic former advisor is ardently pro-Israel
The next guest at the Gala Dinner of the Zionist Organisation of America in November, is , Steve Bannon, Trump’s former strategic advisor and a known anti-Semite.
Add caption
As Richard Spencer, founder of the alt-Right and a fully paid up neo-Nazi declared, he is a White Zionist.  Anti-Semites the world over admire Israel and only wish they could emulate it.  Israel is viciously anti-Muslim, overtly racist     and at the moment it is trying to remove citizenship from its own Palestinian citizens.  What is there not to like about Israel from the point of view of fascists and anti-Semites?

That is why the new far-Right party in the German Bundestag, Alternative for Germany, AfD is pro-Zionist.  They love Israel but hate Jews!  They want to rehabilitate the German army in the war, they want to 'revise' German history concerning the second world war but they are above all an anti-Muslim party.  That is why Zionism fits the bill.
When Benjamin Netanyahu’s own son, Yair, posted an anti-Semitic cartoon directed at George Soros, his biggest fans were David Duke, a holocaust denier and former KKK Grand Wizard and Andrew Anglin, editor of the Neo-Nazi Daily Stormer, named after the paper of Julius Strecher, Der Sturmer.  Streicher was executed in 1946 for crimes against humanity at Nuremburg.

There is no truth whatsoever in Warren Morgan's statement that

 'We have the prominent activist and suspended Labour Party member Tony Greenstein here, who indeed was present at the [Free Speech on Israel] fringe meeting where it was suggested that Holocaust denial should be allowed. His expulsion, in my view, is long overdue.' 

This is a good example of how Labour's false antisemitism allegations have been manufactured over the past two years.  No one at the Free Speech on Israel meeting last Monday even mentioned holocaust denial, let alone suggested that it should be discussed.  I would be completely opposed to such a discussion.  There is no  point in debating flat earthers.

I don't believe holocaust denial should be criminalised, as in Germany and Austria, because not only does that drive it underground but it gives the appearance of people wanting to suppress uncomfortable truths.  However, in Europe and America, there is no doubt that holocaust denial is nearly always a product of neo-Nazi historical revision.

There are some people who do believe that holocaust denial is protected speech.  They are not anti-Semites.  They include not only Noam Chomsky but the most renowned historian of the Holocaust Raul Hilberg, editor of The Destruction of the European Jews.  Hilberg believed that Holocaust historians could actually learn something from these people because they pointed out flaws in our own reasoning.

However no one at the FSOI meeting advocated talking with holocaust deniers.  In my 40+ years involvement in the Palestine solidarity movement I have known of no such discussion in PSC. 

In 2012 one person, Frances Clarke Lowes expressed Holocaust denial views in Palestine Solidarity Campaign.  I immediately proposed his expulsion both from the local group and nationally.  What Miko Peled said was:  '‘It’s about freedom to discuss and criticise every issue whether it’s the Holocaust yes or no whether its Palestine...’ He obviously was not disputing the holocaust.  What he was doing was advocating that we should have freedom of speech on every issue, including the Holocaust.  A very different thing.

Last year Warren Morgan alleged that there was spitting at the Labour Party AGM in Brighton.  It was totally untrue but it achieved its purpose, the suspension of Brighton & Hove Labour Party and the annulment of the elections.  Warren Morgan is someone who has no compunction in lying if it benefits Progress and his wing of the Labour Party.  The man is completely unfit to be Labour leader in Brighton and Hove.  He has no regard for the truth.  He is prepared to lie for political advantage no matter who he hurts or damages.  He has no moral scruples worthy of the name. Warren Morgan has to go as Brighton & Hove's Council leader.

Even if someone had mentioned Holocaust denial at the meeting in question, why does that make me guilty?  This is an excellent example of the McCarthyist technique of guilt-by-association.  Socialists and democrats fought hard against the techniques of Joe McCarthy, who was himself a Southern white supremacist and anti-Semite. 

I have been an active anti-racist and anti-fascist throughout my life.  I have been arrested and beaten up for opposing the fascists.  I co-founded Brighton & Hove Anti-fascist Committee and was Secretary of the Brighton and Hove Anti-Nazi League.

As the article I reproduce here from the Argus of October 16 1983 demonstrates I have myself been at the receiving end of this vile literature.

This is not about Holocaust denial but defending the Israeli State.  How else do you defend barbaric practices such as gaoling, shackling and torturing Palestinian children as young as 12 or the demolition of Palestinian villages such as al Hiran, in Israel's Negev, in order to build Jewish towns and settlements, other than by accusing Zionism’s opponents of anti-Semitism?  

Israel today is a racist and repressive state, which is attacking even Israeli human rights organisations such as Btselem and Breaking the Silence.  It is defunding critical and left wing theatre.  It is no accident that the reason why Netanyahu joined in with Hungary's racist Prime Minister Viktor Orban in attacking George Soros was because Soros has funded liberal Israeli NGOs.  

Israel is a state where right-wing mobs indulge in pogroms chanting ‘Mavet LaAravim’ (Death to the Arabs).  In Europe 80 years ago similar mobs chanted ‘Death to the Jews.’

People like Warren Morgan and the so-called Jewish Labour Movement want to divert attention from the fact that Israel is the most racist state in the world by distorting what we say.  It is a classic example of shooting the messenger rather than dealing with the message.

I have written to Morgan saying that if he doesn’t retract his insinuation that I am a sympathiser with or support Holocaust denial I will sue him for defamation.

Tony Greenstein

Please note this blog was corrected on 18th October to amend what Miko Peled said.  However my interpretation of what he said is exactly the same.