Can you imagine anything more ludicrous? At a time when over a million Palestinians are under siege from Israel, when hunger stalks the streets and fighter planes soar over the horizon, we are asked to sign a petition in solidarity with two well known anti-Semites – Gilad Atzmon and Mary Rizzo!
Petition: for two activists... that you know well
Still it is true that we know them well!
This petition is a sign of the desperation of Atzmon that people have started to wake up to what he and his groupie Rizzo stand for. In particular they have been rebuffed by Ireland PSC.
The Cork Database bio for Tony Greenstein was defaced by Atzmon supporter Paul de Rooij, a self-styled journalist who produces no copy of consequence. Rooij landed a role as editor of the database which is run by UCC Cork PSC (despite him living in London). As part of Cork PSC which is affiliated to Ireland PSC which was therefore affected by this action.
Earlier this week, the offending comments of Rooij were relegated to well-deserved obscurity being buried within the article alongside critical comments concerning what had happened. Atzmon & Rizzo got the message - that wherever they surface anti-racist and democratic elements would be shining the light on them.
Which is why various right-wing conspiracy sites have taken up the petition, most of them not having a single comment beneath, such is the enthusiasm for this initiative. E-mails have been sent far and wide, which is how we came to learn of this little initiative. And of course it is now the main story on Rizzo’s anti-Semitic PeacePalestine sewer.
The final paragraph of this pathetic ‘petition’ begins ‘We also take the opportunity to condemn the strangling siege that is being imposed over the Gaza Strip…’
And that is what it is about. The siege of Palestine is an afterthought for these people. Solidarity with Atzmon’s ego and his one-man fan club Rizzo is what it’s all about. Those who have put their name to the petition should seriously ask themselves whether they believe that supporting holocaust denial and anti-Semitism is the best way to go about supporting the Palestinians.
Atzmon first came to our attention when defending another open anti-semite and holocaust denier, Israel Shamir or Jermas the Swedish fascist. There is little doubt that Shamir, who has repeatedly lied about his background, is an Israeli state agent. The fact that Atzmon has risked all to support him must raise doubts about
what his real agenda is about.
Those Palestinians who have signed this petition in the belief that they are somehow supporting their sisters and brothers in Palestine should think again. They wouldn’t want to think, in years to come, that what they really signed was a petition in support of Israeli agent(s).
No such justification attaches to Oren Ben-Dor, law lecturer at Southampton University who has knowingly signed an anti-Semitic petition. He is well aware that Atzmon attributes the crimes of Zionism to 'Jewishness' rather than imperialism or colonialism. In so doing Atzmon merely reflects the racism of Zionism which also attributes to Arabs various racial qualities.
As far as I'm concerned, all that was being asked was that those who recognize Gilad and Mary for what they are (humanist universalists standing up for peace and justice), that they go on record with their support (as I have done).
ReplyDeleteThe accusation of anti-Semitism is a tired meme and is slowly but surely losing its effectiveness.
Do you consider 'the accusation anti-Semitism' as a meme in general or just in this instance? Because without a qualifier that sounds on par for PeacePalestine.
ReplyDeleteIt take it the phrase 'humanist universalism' is a euphemism for peddling racism in the name of a noble cause?
I wonder what justice those who died in Nazi camps and in their own villages swinging from a noose are getting from Atzmon and Rizzo?
I got involved in this off the back of looking at Rizzo's site. I have never seen anything so overt and not openly right-wing. I shocked me.
Jew baiting plays right into the hands of the enemies of Palestine and the Lebanon. Racism repels good people from worthy causes.
Thanks for the obvious 'NKVD with a loudspeaker' psyops tactic. We know what effect we are having. And it is effective, and if apologists for racists are tiring of us then thanks for letting us know we have our ranges aligned perfectly.
You obviously have no qualms in singing up to a list with some of the most notorious holocaust deniers of the day. I think we can fairly judge the value of your contribution from that.
Then you have made a mistake Lance. Atzmon and Rizzo are not universalist humanists. The fact that Atzmon openly says that for him Jewish anti-Zionists (3rd category and all that) are bigger enemies for him than Zionists says it all. And his collaboration with a particularly obnoxious specimen of the latter, one Mikey, explains where he is coming from.
ReplyDeleteMy concern over anti-Semitism is this. Are Jews in danger in western europe? No. Is there a likelihood of a resurrection of traditional anti-Semitism? No. Even the BNP in England supports Israel whilst demonising Muslims. Why then do I believe we should make it clear that those who argue there was no holocaust (Eisen) or that there is a traditional Jewish conspiracy and are also soft holocaust deniers (Atzmon) or just plain anti-Semitic (Rizzo) have no place in the PS movement?
Because anti-Semitism, which the Zionists have always employed, is dangerous to the Palestinian cause. Just because the Zionists have abused the term doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You just have to be sophisticated to realise that like the boy who cried wolf, it may not exist on most occasions that are claimed for it but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
If the Boycott movement is going to take off it will be via the trade union and labour movement. I can tell you that a hint or whiff of anti-semitism will be enough to derail the movement. Which might be why Atzmon didn't support the academic boycott.
Racists are scabs and you should recognise that. The Palestinian cause is anti-racist or it is nothing. That is why you should get your name off a petition that includes you with a host of holocaust deniers.
Tony Greenstein
>>As far as I'm concerned, all that was being asked was that those who recognize Gilad and Mary for what they are (humanist universalists standing up for peace and justice), that they go on record with their support (as I have done).
The accusation of anti-Semitism is a tired meme and is slowly but surely losing its effectiveness.
I consider anti-Semitism a widely overused meme. It seems to be the defense of first resort and much like accusations of child molestation, attempts to poison the well before the fact. Furthermore, there appears to be no consequences for unfairly labeling someone as such.
ReplyDeletePeddling racism is exactly what I see from those arguing for Jewish exceptionalism and humanist universalism is the opposite.
Your argument that Gilad and Mary are anti-Semites because someone might express a view in the comments that you feel is anti-Semitic does not hold nor would it if that were also true of some of their supporters who signed the petition.
Add to that the fact that labels shift as needed. Dr. Norman Finkelstein has been smeared as a Holocaust denier (his family was murdered), a Holocaust revisionist (he studies the historical record), and finally Professor Alan Dershowitz has morphed the term into "Holocaust minimizer" (he points out Zionist abuses in service of Israel).
But you, apparently without the benefit of an NKVD louspeaker have stated without substantiation that the list is rife with "notorious holocaust deniers" (could you be one as well because you did not capitalize Holocaust? Otherwise you seem to be indicating that they deny holocausts of any kind have taken place).
Would you be willing to vet the list and point who on it denies that Jews were murdered wholesale by the Nazi regime? Otherwise, what justice are those who died in camps and at the end of nooses getting from you exactly? That you appeal to the horror of their end as a way to try to score points in an argument against those who would seek the same standard of justice for all human beings regardless of ethnicity?
Perhaps you even feel strongly enough about the validity of your own argument to address me as someone other than "anonymous". I mean, how hard is it to create a handle of some sort?
We see here a classic example of the difficulty some people now have in disintangling Zionist accusations of 'anti-Semitism' from the real thing.
ReplyDeleteIt is no secret that the false accusation of anti-semitism has been used by the Dershowitzes of this world against supporters of Palestinians. If lancethruster were to have a look at 3 of the 4 articles I have written for the Guardian's Comment is Free then he would see I have a much greater appreciation of what form this accusation takes than anything written by his heroes Rizzo/Atzmon. http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/tony_greenstein/index.xml
But just because 99% of the time the accusation is false then that doesn't mean it isn't true 1%. The boy who cried wolf.
I'm sorry that requires you to think, to use your grey cells. Yes it is a 'a widely overused meme.... the defense of first resort.' I agree. But that does not mean, logically, that sometimes an accusation of anti-semitism cannot be true.
When Atzmon calls the socialist unity web site 'socialist Jewnity' or speaks about facing up to the fact that the Jews do control the world or Rizzo says that The Radical Press site is not anti-Semitic etc. when it clearly is, then one should draw conclusions.
Or when 'knucles' Spennato comes out with questions that go to the heart of whether there was a holocaust and Atzmon backs her up we are entitled to conclude that Atzmon is indeed a holocaust denier.
Look, it's very simple. You can follow the idiocy of the Iranian President who holds that if the Zionists claim legitimacy for the Israeli state on account of the holocaust, all one has to do is deny the holocaust and hey presto, no legitimacy. It really is that simple and that is why Eisen & co. buy into this nonsense.
There is just one problem that these wooden heads haven't thought of. If the holocaust is true, and there really is no doubt whatsoever, then accepting the logic of Ahmedinajad & Eisen/Shamir/Atzmon then Israel is legitimate and that must include the Nakba. Because that is what recognition of the 'right to exist' means in terms of Israel.
It is an utterly stupid argument. I really don't understand why you cannot see it. The Palestinian struggle is an anti-racist one. Combining with holocaust deniers/anti-semites is the road to disaster. And for the sake of Rizzo's/Atzmon's ego that is where we are headed.
Lancethruster
ReplyDeleteHere's a taster of something in the process of being written. You will note that the links to major players in Holocaust Denial and racism are quite clearly linked:
Quote Atzmon:
"'I'm not going to say whether it is right or not to burn down a synagogue, I can see that it is a rational act."
"the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago. Seemingly, it is the
personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded the Israelis and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards
their destruction in the first place."
"The idea that Zionists have taken over America might sound bizarre in the first instance but we must remember that this kind of strange scenario does happen."
“we must begin to take the accusation that the Jewish people are trying to control the world very seriously…. …. American Jewry makes any debate on whether the ‘Protocols of the
elder of Zion’ are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do try to control the world, by proxy… I would suggest that perhaps we should face it once
and for all: the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus who, by the way, was himself a Palestinian Jew.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Atzmon#Other_work
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/saying%20NO.htm
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/protocols.html
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/onanti.html
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=1559
And here is a site that is linked on Rizzo's Peace Palestine on the links down the left:
http://www.nowarforisrael.com/
It's run by the KKK a.k.a David Duke
http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/results.jsp?domain=nowarforisrael.com
And if you are new to this topic and don't know who David Duke is:
http://www.davidduke.com/general/no-war-for-israel_4.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke
The text project then shoots itself in the foot spectacularly: "We declare that he does not speak for us or in our names when he attacks these and other activists."
And let's have a look at what their esteemed friends and supporters from that list have to say for themselves:
Quote Eisen:
'Ernst Zundel was once involved in the publication of a book called The Hitler We Loved and Why, but Ernst Zundel was not the only German who loved Hitler and is probably not
the only German who still loves Hitler. Millions of Germans loved Hitler who for twelve years impacted on them as no German has or probably ever will, and, though they never say
so, must, deep down still cherish his memory.’
http://www.zundelsite.org/zundel_persecuted/may20-05_eisen.html
Note who is being discussed and is hosting this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Z%C3%BCndel
Atzmon distributed this "great text" from his mailing list and describes its author as his "friend"
Quote Radical Free Press:
Where do you start with this vile cesspit of racial hatred?
Well here's just a taster:
"HOW DO WE STOP THE JEWISH CONTROL OF AMERICA?
Here are 3 options:
* Convert to Judaism and be part of the Single-Party political system in America.
* Convert to Judaism and be part of the Jewish-Takeover of former Christian America.
* Don’t convert to Judaism. Instead call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to grow a revival of Christianity in America.
~Only when America is a Christian nation once again will the Jews lose their power to lead us all by our noses as sheep to the slaughter!"
http://www.radicalpress.com/?p=681#more-681
But be sure to check out the edifying topics such as:
# Jewish Banking Cartel (83)
# Jewish Holocaust Industry (78)
# Jewish Lobby (113)
# Jewish Media Monopoly (106)
# Jewish Porn Industry (51)
# Jews (149)
# Jews Behind Bolshevik Revolution (47)
http://www.radicalpress.com/
Quote Wendy Campbell:
"The Holocaust has been made into more of a religious dogma than historical fact, since there exists no original source materials to back up their claims which are all based on
conflicting eye-witnesses. "
http://www.countercurrents.org/campbell240108.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Campbell
In case you missed it she is also associated with IHR:
http://www.ihr.org/
Mr. Greenstein and azvsas - I will look at your information. While it is true that Gilad and Mary certainly have a bigger tent than most, I have seen plenty of areas where people are free to disagree in either tone or specifics.
ReplyDeleteI liken it to those who would attempt to link 9/11 Truth with Holocaust denial. The two issues can be examined independently, despite the insistence of some that holding a certain view in one area negates/requires a particular view in another.
One can be concerned about illegal immigration in the US and not have that position dismissed outright merely because David Duke holds similar views. This tactic was used against the Walt and Mearscheimer Israel Lobby paper.
As one who has been harassed by Zionists, I am particularly sensitive to trying to silence someone by labeling, rather than to address their views directly. To demand a particular orthodoxy presumes a correctness that may not necessarily be deserved.
While I do not always think that activist/political associations based on a particular sub-group are unjustified, I also recognize that it is sometimes used to argue that another's view is less than/more than someone else's (as with say, Vets for/against the War - true, their perspective is to be given the weight it is due but it does not trump all others and often needs to be taken in conjunction with other voices outside their camp). I have seen many anti-war groups/movements dismissed because there is a communist/socialist faction involved yet to me there is unity where it counts.
I pretty much got involved with Middle East justice through groups with their Jewish affiliation prominent in the organizations banner, and still regard most of them favorably, yet also see the merits of the argument that rejects the need/benefit of an additional sub-classification.
I will avoid preconceived notions about this particlar dustup but will have to admit that I am both intrigued and often swayed by the writings of Gilad and Mary and find their values and character to be laudable. That is not to say I have to agree with everything they've ever written, but certainly do not see the race hatred supposedly so clear to some.
LT
ReplyDeleteWe aren't likening anything to anything. We are reporting real racism and real holocaust denial not comparisons.
Anyone who credibly professes to be against racism would not have an uncritical link to a site like Duke's No War for Israel. You don't have to know WHO is behind it to gag reflexively at the stench. The same goes for Radical Press.
Rizzo is on the record shrugging her shoulders at having both sites brought to her attention. It has taken public naming and shaming to stop her from promoting those sites, and more importantly stop falsely associating the KKK with Palestinians.
I suggest you do some reading on racism before you rush to be confident of giving anyone a diagnosis.
Pardon me if I have a snigger at the bitter irony of colonials who bleat on about "illegal immigration".
Unity with racists? That's our whole reason for being is racists undermining good causes by association. They are just fodder for the opposition; a ready made excuse to dismiss that cause.
There is no room for racists! You will only damage yourself if you try.
Dialogue with racists? There is screeds of it on Indymedia UK. It was an exercise in giving people the benefit of the doubt, the right to reply, following the conventions we'd expect... as per usual the end result is the same as it always is: a waste of time.
If someone is so twisted, mad or stupid to collectively punish people based of stereotypes and lies, where is the better nature to appeal to?
Lance Thruster says he has been harassed by Zionists hence his unhappiness with the criticism of Rizzo that he terms 'silencing'.
ReplyDeleteI think I have experienced more harassment than Lance. I've probably spoken 50+ times at universities on the subject of Zionism and I can count on the fingers of one hand where the Zionists haven't tried to ban the meeting.
The point is that it is not the Zionists who are criticising Rizzo/Atzmon but anti-Zionists! And we do it because we know that what they say chimes in what the Zionists are saying. Read e.g. Atzmon's 'Not in my name essay' on his site. He repeatedly says that for someone to challenge Israel as a Jew is to be a Zionist! I.e. being Jewish is de facto to be a Zionist. Isn't that what the ZIonists say when they try to ban their opponents?
You are anti-Zionist but that is actually anti-Semitic because being Jewish is the same as being Zionist. Atzmon reflects that position which is another reason to criticise him!