I was sent a post yesterday by a French comrade who asked why it was that British left-winger John Rose of the SWP and Ghada Karmi were speaking alongside an open anti-Semite and holocaust denier, Gilad Atzmon. I must confess I didn't know.I therefore e-mailed a number of people making them aware of this and a group of us were planning to organise a picket of the meeting at Westminster University. It is unclear who is organising the meeting, although I understand that Hizbut Tahir is strong on the campus.
However both John Rose and Ghada Karmi have made it very clear that they will not be speaking at the meeting. John Rose sent a message to people that:
I have not agreed to speak at this event & I have told the organisers to withdraw my name immediately. I did agree to speak at an event ABOUT Atzmon! A very different event and clearly not this one. Best John
In fact I've been asked recently to do much the same and whilst there can be no disagreement with challenging Atzmon's views, including debating him if necessary (though most Atzmonites like Paul Eisen who I also challenged some years ago, run a mile), there is a world of difference with eruditely examining a subject as if Atzmon were some kind of expert.
Likewise Ghada Karmi wrote that:
‘Thanks,Tony. I have been trying to pull out and am urgently trying to find an email contact for them. I'm in Jordan currently, and not back till next week.’ Ghada’
That leaves Alan Hart. It is to be hoped that he will also realise that speaking alongside an anti-Semite on what ‘Jewishness’ means is not a way to combat Zionism. If he does insist on doing so then he will discredit himself. It is to be hoped that he will recognise that speaking alongside genuine anti-Semites is not a good thing.
And I’m pleased to say that after their earlier refusal to disown Atzmon because of loss of face, the SWP have now clearly decided not to have anything more to do with him.
Unsurprisingly the Zionists have picked up on this meeting, including one Mira Vogel of Green Engage. Unfortunately, as a minor derivative academic, Mira is extremely dishonest. Her article is entitled Stop the War Coalition and Stormfront promote the same campus event. In fact the Stop the War Coalition is not promoting the event although the Berkshire StWC, apparently, has members who support him. And it has to be admitted that they are not the only StWC group to do so.
But it would be easier to take Mira seriously if she had, even once, condemned fellow Zionists for demonstrating alongside the fascist EDL. If it is wrong for the Stop the War Coalition and Stormfront to support the same thing, then why did she have nothing to say about the support of the Zionist Federation and the EDL for the murder of 9 human rights activists on the Mavi Marmara. Such hypocrisy is typical of Zionists and that is why we can never take them protestations about anti-Semitism seriously. After all, if they were seriously concerned about holocaust deniers and misuse of the holocaust, then they would condemn the Israeli government for keeping 60,000 holocaust surviviors in poverty because they have stolen their compensation.
One can only assume that Mira and Green Engage believe that demonstrating with fascists and neo-Nazis is better than sharing a platform with a single anti-Semite!
And given the lack of criticism of Atzmon by her fellow Zionists (some of whom have openly worked with him e.g. Michael Ezra) it is no surprise that Mira Vogel ends up quoting my article on Atzmon having become an open holocaust denier! I'm always happy to have my work quoted, but she might ask why Michael Ezra, a Harry's Place Zionist, actually researched previous criminal convictions for Atzmon to use to deflect my criticisms of him and offered to do the same with Roland Rance!
Tony Greenstein
Von: "Gilad Atzmon"
Gilad Atzmon: The Israeli So-Called ‘Left’
Thursday, April 21, 2011
We learned today that some 300 prominent Israeli left-wingers, including some cultural leaders, gathered in Tel Aviv to call for the Jewish state to embrace the creation of a Palestinian state.
Among the petition's signatories were 17 winners of the Israel Prize and other leding intellectuals and artists.
"We are here to welcome the expected announcement of an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel, according to the borders of our independence, fixed during the 1949 armistice," the petition reads. The Israeli so-called ‘Leftists’ are welcoming the expected Palestinian State as long as the Palestinians stay behind the wall and do not exercise their right of return. The Israeli humanists basically endorse the Palestinian diplomatic initiative so they can keep dwelling on Palestinian land forever. I am not impressed at all.
Event: Zionism, Jewishness and Israel
Wednesday, April 20, 2011
A panel discussion examining Israeli Criminality in the wake of the Goldstone Retract.
Tuesday, May 3 · 6:30pm - 8:00pm
Location: University Of Westminster - Cavendish Campus
115 New Cavendish Street
London
W1W 6UW
Speakers include:
Ghada Karmi
John Rose
Gilad Atzmon
Alan Hart
Enquiries Contact: 07934 263 023
panel.3may@gmail.com
This message was sent to guenter.schenk@web.de from:
Gilad Atzmon XXX XXX London, XX 7 7 XX, United Kingdom
well done tony. i don't know how much investigation it would take Ghada and John to find out how this whole business happened given that the notice on the Atzmon site that you recreate in your own post contains contact info as follows:
ReplyDeleteEnquiries Contact: 07934 263 023
panel.3may@gmail.com
I wonder now if this has been an Atzmon hoax like that ludicrous Board of Deputies whistle blowers nonsense.
Having tried it myself the phone no. only goes onto answer fone so it's not possible to get into direct contact with them although I've left a message on the ansafone.
ReplyDeleteLikewise I suspect that the contact e-mail address isn't being staffed, although from what I've seen, John Rose is aware of who the organisers are. I've also left him a message on his mobile but again he hasn't got back to me, probably because he doesn't like my past criticisms of the SWP in this regard!
But yes, this whole affair is built around deception. A meeting about Atzmon's politics turns into a panel with the creature
"alongside an open anti-Semite and holocaust denier, Gilad Atzmon." Gilad an anti-Semite?! I suppose if you merely gloss over his opinions without bothering to pay specific attention to what he 'actually' says as opposed to what your impression of his opinion is, one could make a case for the charge; at a very long stretch. Gilad is notoriously anti-Israeli; but as an Israeli national himself, he is clearly vehemently opposed to the Israeli politics of oppression as opposed to against the people. On the few occasions I have spoken with Gilad and debated some of his points, I have never, ever heard himn deny the Holocaust. On the contrary, he affirms the fact of the Holocaust and bemoans those who exploit the epic tragedy for a baser political agenda. And I largely agree with his points. As the great mathmatician and camp survivor once said to me in response to a request that he testify to his experiences in a concnetration camp: "I'm not into Shoah business". The Holocaust was foremost a personal thing. 6 million+ individuals suffered and died at the hands of politcal opportunists. To exploit that fact for political gain or moral justification for acts of state violence is to debase the memories of theose who did as much as those who didn't survive. I don't agree with everything Gilad says but he's not an anti-Semite, he's not a Holocaust denier and no, he's not a slef-loathing Jew either. He is a provocateur and you need to look past his taunts at moral hypocracy and listen to what he actually says before forming judgement. But what amuses me is how much fear he seems to inspire in the morally uncertain. I've never had pause to contest those points of difference between us. What are you so afraid of?
ReplyDeleteMr. Greestein,
ReplyDeleteyou don't know me and I do not know you, we never met. How do you dare you then to cite my name in one of your articles? You should know that this might be a libal case for court.
If you really want to tell you readers about myself, they can read my book "PALESTINE ON MY MIND":
http://en.qantara.de/Against-Political-Pigeonholing/8451c8520i1p77/index.html
Well Rogue Eye, you are of course entitled to your opinion and we have to differ. Possibly when you've read my Quick Guide to Atzmon or the more detailed document on which it is based you will see that there is more to Atzmon than meets the eye, including those he works with and hangs around with.
ReplyDeletehttp://azvsas.blogspot.com/2011/03/guide-to-sayings-of-gilad-atzmon-anti.html
As for Guenter Schenk you are named as the key link person pushing Gilad Atzmon. You are named on the e-mail in question. Do you deny your involvement in pushing for meetings with him and inserting his poision into the Palestine solidarity movement?
As for libel, then I would immediately apply for disclosure of all your contacts, e-mails etc. with him to see what turns up, so be very sure of where you are going.
Salam Tony,
ReplyDeleteInstead of denying the dialogue you should think of supporting such a debate/panel as at least there you or others have the chance to make each other grow and recognize the other.
If you are not ready to learn, to expand, to rethink always your habits,opinions, actions and point of views and to let them get challenged by someone else (not specifically Gilad ) there is no sense in going into a debate anyway. Then, as a consequence, you should stop writing your blog, commenting etc...
If you are willing and open for dialogue with the world, with Gilad then you should face and let other face what he says...
In an intellectual debate you will, if you are right with your accusations against him, not have to fear to "loose" against Gilad.
De-inviting Gilad makes me as someone that might be listening to this panel, feel deeply disrespected in my own abilities to decide wether what Gilad has to say is wrong or right, or some trues, ore some false ideas...
You wanna prevent me from finding out myself by working against such a debate....are you fearing that I am not clever enough to find out myself?
I am happy that its too late already for me to hear Gilad,cause
I met Gilad Atzmon some weeks ago and in his lecture he was stating that the holocaust did happen-so no holocaust denier....
As a german I anyway have no doubt on it.
I did not need Gilad to state this.
Nobody actually is taken serious if he denies the holocaust...
Gilad is also not an anti semite----the anti semite accusation comes every second sentence one says something about israel, so honestly...i cant take this serious...
I understand from you that you are anti-zionist.
so my questions is if you are by chance supporting one of the key enemies of the anti-zionist movement: the failure of fighting, blackmailing etc under each other...
I agree with Rogue-eye:
"He is a provocateur and you need to look past his taunts at moral hypocracy and listen to what he actually says ......"
I wish for you that you can take the step into the free world and listen and let other listen to Gilad and trust in the moral integrity of each human being to exist or to develop through an open and free dialogue....
Annie Alina
Annie
ReplyDeleteI am perfectly happy to debate with Atzmon and have said so before but he was here on a panel discussing 'Zionism, Jewishness and Israel'. That is something different.
Yes he tells some people, especially no doubt if they are German, that he doesn't dispute the holocaust but in his writings he says other things which my article http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2011/03/guide-to-sayings-of-gilad-atzmon-anti.html explains. There is no getting away with the fact that Atzmon is a holocaust denier.
Just read 'Truth, History & Integrity - Questioning the Holocaust Religion'
http://www.aljazeerah.infohttp://tinyurl.com/3zcgqvw.
Yes I know that Zionists accuse anti-Zionists and supporters of the Palestinians of being anti-Semitic. Do you believe them? Then analyse, think, differentiate. The Zionists are not interested in anti-Semitism. On the contrary Zionism has ALWAYS ALLIED with anti-Semites, because both share the desire for Jews to leave the countries they live in. Zionism despises Jews outside Israel every bit as much as anti-Semites.
So don't just take the Zionists at face value. That is where Atzmon went wrong. As an Israeli he accepted the Zionist fables but then recoiled at what they meant re the Palestinians. Unfortunately every time he opens his mouth he gives the Zionists a welcome present by confirming that anti-Zionists are in fact anti-Semites.
I understand that Atzmon is a provocatuer, but he is more than that. When he wrote of John Reynolds call for more Christians in the City of London, Atzmon took it to mean 'spiritual deJewification'. Work that out. Anti-semitic? I think so.
I understand that when you accuse anti-Zionists and Palestinian supporters of anti-Semitism you make people think that to support the Palestinians you have to be an anti-Semite. You don't. Racism and Zionism are bed fellows. Opposition to Zionism is opposition to racism, Zionism included.
One of the links to your 'evidence' of Atzmon's anti-semitism and holocaust denial is dead, the other is less than totally coherent.
ReplyDeleteI find it a little fussy to refer to another article to 'explain' wone's position; why not just assert the evidence at the point in the thread? Where is the evidence of Atzmon asserting that there was no holocaust or making anti-semitic statements.
Instead, you present clearly reinterpreted juxpositions:
‘For me it is Palestine and the Palestinian people. If this makes me into an anti-Semite in the eyes of some confused Diaspora Jews (left, right and centre), I will have to learn to live with it. At the end of the day, I cannot make everyone happy.’
'A telling remark because Atzmon believes that supporting the Palestinians and being anti-Semitic go hand in hand, whereas they are in counterposition'.
No it doesn't. He says to'some confused Diaspora Jews' it may make him anti-semitic. He doesn't endorse the position, he says he doesn't care what they think.
Your immediate re-interpretation is askew in fact and in context; which really doesn'ty indicate very much hope for any logical argument in the rest of your accusation.
Because afterall, they're not even assertions (whcih are usually borne up by facts), you merely making accusations.
Can I call you names too?
Igor
Mr. Greenstein,
ReplyDeletehaving read your blog comments and all the stupid accusations you are writing about Gilad Atzmon, I am really astonished that you fail to mention that the email from Günter Schenk you are quotiong here is not a personal email to Mr. Schenk, but it is one of Gilad Atzmon´s circulated mails he sends to hundreds of people on his list each time he publishes new posts, articles etc. So how can you - from this circulation mail - conclude that Gunter Schenk is one of Gilad Atzmon´s "fervent supporters"?
The way in which you are offending Mr. Atzmon, insulting him and defaming is primitive and not worth to be considered by "thinking" people. The way in which you quote single sentences out of his writings, put one sentence after the other but not in the correct way is simple fraud. Usually you even dont´t mention the sources from which you take the quotes. Very bad style, Mr. Greenstein. I am wondering what is your intention behind it all - the only aim you seem to have is to put damage on Gilad Atzmon, this looks like a personal war and not like an intellectual debate.
Instead of wasting so much precious time you should perhaps start reading and understanding the writing of Mr. Atzmon. I admit, you need to have a certain intellectual capacity to follow and understand his thinking, and of course his ideas are discussable, but NEVER there are anti-Semitic or racist statements. I am sorry for you - you don´t come out of it all very well.
I concur with drgweber; the lack of basic evidential logic to the accusations against Atzmon lowers the level of discussion. There's a responsibility that comes with communication; to at least try and illuminate not cloud the issue with recklessly unsubstantiated accusations. Just present one accurate quote in which Atzmon not alludes but asserts either a denial of the holocaust or a racist, anti-semite position.
ReplyDeleteThe information regarding Guenter Schenk I consider reliable, i.e. he is more than just a recipient of e-mails by Atzmon. However in the absence of documentary or corroborative proof I'm deleting the allegation.
ReplyDeleteBut that is the only concession I will make, on grounds of fairness if nothing else. Rogue Eye tells me that a link is dead. Not surprising since e.g. the site Palestine Think Thank where many of his articles appeared, has also died. Links die all the time on the net as per Wikileaks. When the article is updated fresh links will be sought or otherwise the link will, in academic fashion, be considered as having been accessed at the date of the article.
Where he asks is the evidence that Atzmon asserts that there was no holocaust or indeed making anti-semitic statements.
In 'Esther to Aipac' Atzmon clearly states that the problem is that even with anti-Zionist holocaust historians most of them 'do not challenge the Zionist narrative, namely Nazi Judeocide... no one goes as far as revisionism, not a single Holocaust religion scholar dares engage in a dialogue with the so-called 'deniers' to discuss their vision of the events or any other revisionist scholarship’.
What vision might that be other than that there was no holocaust? If Atzmon believes that holocaust denial or revisionism is of equal validity to those who believe it is a fact, then he is clearly saying that holocaust denial is a valid subject of debate and that he subscribes to such a view.'
And when Atzmon writes that 'If, for instance, the Nazis wanted the Jews out of their Reich (Judenrein - free of Jews), or even dead, [note the 'even dead' as the Zionist narrative insists, how come they marched hundreds of thousands of them back into the Reich at the end of the war?' He goes on to ask why is Auschwitz were a death camp the guards marched the inmates back to Germany and that even its Jewish survivors chose to join them.'
If you can't see this for what it is then there is, as I suspect, nothing that will convince you. I also say, that because of things like commercial gain, Atzmon can't openly say 'The holocaust is a hoax' - he has to be a bit more subtle and leave clues. You choose to ignore them. That is your right and it is my right to say it's a load of self-serving rubbish.
Rogue Eye also misunderstands the bit about having to accept being seen as an anti-Semite he'll live with it. The response of someone who opposes racism, all racism, is to say that he rejects such an argument, that on the contrary it is precisely because one opposes anti-Semitism that one must oppose the racism directed at Palestinians.
But then Atzmon wouldn't choose this response as he is not an anti-racist.
The fact is that nothing I cite is out of context. The Short Guide became so long precisely because I was determined not to q uote him out of context. When he says Jews control the world, he means it. When he says he is indifferent to whether the Protocols are genuine or not I believe him. When he talks of 'socialist jewnity' I understand him as well as I would understand someone who terms another person a 'paki'. He is a visceral racist.
Stop apologising for racism because it does not service to the Palestinians. That is why I dwell on Atzmon's rejection of settler colonialism as an explanation of what Israel does. For him it's Jewishness, hence his anti-Semitism.
Rogue Eye asks that I 'Just present one accurate quote in which Atzmon not alludes but asserts either a denial of the holocaust or a racist, anti-semite position.'
ReplyDeleteWell how about:
‘American Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do control the world.’
The text was changed and ‘the Jewish people’ replaced by ‘Zionists’. The sentence ‘American Jews do control the world.’ had ‘(in fact Zionists) added after ‘American Jews’.
But it's still anti-Semitic and if you say otherwise, in addition to the already provided quote about if Auschwitz were a death camp Jews wouldn't have joined the death marches, then nothing would ocnvince you and you are a died in the wool Atzmon supporter
Interesting how you've got all these 'new' people posting on your blog. I expect they are aliases of Arseman.
ReplyDeleteInteresting about Stop the War not being involved. Mira Vogel and Greens Engage like to smear Stop the War as they don't think the Green Party should be affiliated to it. Have you tried posting on her blog?
I hope you are not referring to that distinguished jazz musician and original thinker, Gilad Atzmon? Very disrespectful.
ReplyDeleteAs a 'crypto-Zionist' I don't feel comfortable about posting on Mira's site since she is only a crude propagandist and a 3rd tier academic.
Yes I'm sure she doesn't like Stop the War Coaliltion. Avigdor Lieberman and George Bush's Iraq War were much more to her liking. A green of the JNF type.
Harry's Place, which I don't normally go to, has got itself in a bit of a tizzy.
You know, there'a an unhealthy level of paranoia on this thread. I mean Gilad at times strike me as somewht paranoid, but consideirng how many voices here appear committed to reinterpreting his actual words into anti-semitism and holocaust-denial, who can blame him for looking over his shoulder?
ReplyDeleteAllot of the misunderstanding surrounding Atzman's comments is that he is focussed on the notion of Jewsh identity as created in the media by the Holocaust and 'specialness' of Jews. Frankly I thought Shindler's List was a manipulatibve, sentimental piece of dross but i never tire from re-seeing the Sorrow and the Pity.
Until we can break out of the racial stereotyping of Jewish identity as either christian baby blood sucking devils or saintly victims played by Ben Kingsly, we will never be ablde to afford Jews the full spectrum of humanity for which we are all entitled and entitled to be judged by.
That is the racism I see at the heart of anti-semitism; an racism that informs the blind tea-bagger supporters for Israel as much as the skin heads marching in Birmingham.
@Tony: "However in the absence of documentary or corroborative proof I'm deleting the allegation." Well done! at least you're abler to adhere to the integrity of debate. You're quite right to withdraw your assertions because they weren't truthful or substantiated, merely opinions; and as opinions took the form of accusations.
@Tony: "'‘American Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do control the world.’ " Atzmon doesn't validate the protcals of Zion by asking why Jews don't question or contest it nor is saying American Jews control the world in itself anti-semitic in the same way that complaining that American militarily and economically largely control the world (something I personally believe, as an American btw), makes one anti-American. I don't personally afree with Atzmon on this point as I don't see an ethnic or religious foundation to the shamless power-mad greed of capitalism (except maybe for Protestants! See Max Webers the Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism; it's the Protestants that control the world with consumer capitalism!).
@Deborah Fink: your comment illicited my assertion about the level of paranoia on this thread. Do you think anyone else actually cares? The term get-a-life springs to mind. But for the record, I am not an alias of Gilad Atzmon but I am a great admirer of his music and his intellect, although I will contest my points of disgreement with him til the end and to his face; another characteristic of the opinons expressed on this thread: fear to debate face to face.
Part 2:
ReplyDeleteI won't show you my bith certificate, but for the record I am an American Jew of Russian immigrant descent living in England. I have family members who perished in Auschwitz and I have had the privledge to speak at length with camp survivors inlcuding the mathmatician Ivan Moscowitz who gave me personally a four hour account of day to day life in the camps for an article I wrote about him for Wired magazine I had nightmares afterwards for weeks.
I am also vehemntly anti Israeli foreign and domestic policies and will not visit that part of the wporld until there is a viable state and homeland for the Palestinian people and Arabs are no longer treated as second class citizens in Telaviv.
I am aware of the history of Israel and its foundation and whereas (unlike, I think Atzmon) will not question its right to exist (unless we also question the US and the UK's right to exist after the documented and substantiated murders, tortures and human rights abuses perpetrated racistly on Muslims and Arabs by our authorities).
Those are my political opinions. Musically, I'm prone to post bop and avant garde improvisation. I'm a big Ornette Coleman fan and as well as Atzmon's magnificent blending of bebop and middles eastern strings and a fan of his amazing singer/songstress Sarah Gallespie.
John Coltrane ain't too bad and I once watched Bobby Fischer play chess. As I did not challange him on his anti-Jewish beleifs at the time, I suppose tht makes me a self-loathing Jew as well ;~)
Be well, happy people and Shalom!
to Deborah-----
ReplyDeleteI am not a Alias of Someone...I am myself and Mr.Schenk and Dr.Weber I know personally....
A blog is there to comment no?
Maybe you check out my blog-linked to my name in order to know who I am---and next time please before you see all this conspiracy theory gets out....
Tony, concerning Guenter Schenk: Guenter is one of the main Atzmon's supporters in Germany & France, I believe as of the end of 2006 or early 2007. You are info is correct about his involvment and I don't understand why Gaby Weber (another German Atzmon's supporter) denies it.
ReplyDeleteI can testify any time that I broke my contact with Guenter after it became obvious that he is an Atzmon fan. Guenter has been running after Jews criticizing Israel and therefore we met I think twice. I have to admit that I was embarrassed both times.
Shraga, thanks. This accords with other information I received but not being able to prove it definitively I decided to delete it but I think that people will be able to judge for themselves not that not only is Guenter Schenk Atzmon's main supporter in Germany but he is also too ashamed to admit it!
ReplyDelete