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Monday, 13 October 2008

Atzmon Eats Humble Pie for Suggesting that the answer to The Financial Crisis is Dejudification!

Atzmon's 'subtle' association of Jews, Zionism and Financial Crisis

They say you can't keep a mad dog down and that is certainly true of the anti-semitic jazz player, Gilad Atzmon. Previously he has suggested that the sleaze factor in British politics was because of the presence of Jews and Jewish money. Unsurprisingly he sees the hidden hand of the same people involved in the present financial crisis. Its the Jews wot done it!

In an article Credit Crunch or rather Zio Punch for the Palestine Think Tank, run by fellow anti-Semite Mary Rizzo, Atzmon wrote that:

'John Reynolds ends his latest Observer commentary on the ethical implications of the current economic disaster with the following words: "Above all we need more individuals to make a stand. The Archbishops of Canterbury and York should go further and call for more Christians to work in the city." (John Reynolds, chief executive of Reynolds Partners, and chairman of the Ethical Investment Advisory Group, The Observer 28.9.08). One may wonder what Reynolds refers to when calling for more ‘Christians to work in the City’. I tend to believe that more than just a few people out there do understand pretty well what Reynolds is suggesting. Reynolds, the chairman of the Ethical Investment Advisory Group protests against the non-ethical spirit that has been abundant in the City for more than a while. By pleading the Archbishops of Canterbury and York to send more Christians to the City he may try to suggest to us that our financial world must be spiritually de-Judified. I must admit that it took me by complete surprise to read such a suggestion in the politically correct Guardian. I wonder how it happened that such an idea filtered through.

Now it is obvious to anyone who is not an inveterate anti-Semite that Reynolds was saying nothing whatsoever about Jews in the City of London. His aim was targetted at the unsavoury greedy practices of city dealers as a whole, regardless of religion. As a committed Christian he obviously believes, however naive that might be, that religious Christians might introduce some ethics in the City. Of course those of us who are socialists would say that greed, corruption, theft etc. are integral to the operation of the money markets. However there was nothing in what Reynolds wrote which even hinted at Jews being specifically targetted.

But Atzmon is, of course, a dedicated anti-Semite. When the Sleaze Question in New Labour raised its head, then in jumped Atzmon to suggest that it was Zionist, i.e. Jewish money that was the problem.

Unfortunately for Atzmon he was rumbled rather quickly and this apology soon appeared on Rizzo's Think Tank Cesspit.

Clarification:In the course of an article entitled "Credit Crunch or rather Zio Punch?" I recently made a comment about Mr John Reynolds, the Chief Executive of Reynolds Partners and chairman of the Ethical Investment Advisory Group. I suggested that some people may think that his call in The Observer to send more Christians to the City was a plea for the financial world to be "spiritually de-Judified". I want to make it clear that I did not intend to suggest that Mr Reynolds was anti-Semitic or in any way hostile to Jewish people or those of the Jewish faith and I am sorry if my comment was understood by anybody in that way. Mr Reynolds has asked me to clarify the position and I am happy to do so. I would like to apologise for any distress caused.

51 comments:

Anonymous said...

It's a shame though that the original article has been widely circulated in recent days on anti-Semitic and certain Palestinian websites the readers of which may well be unaware of Atzmon's "clarification". By completely unwarrantedly dragging John Reynolds into things, Atzmon presumably hoped to give his views a figleaf of respsectability. A google search of "Atzmon" plus "Zio Punch" currently yields 1,410 hits. The original version of the article is still on quite a few of these sites: the widely-read uruknet for example.
www.uruknet.info/?p=47634
So Reynolds' reputation is still being traduced, thanks to Atzmon's irresponsibility.

Anonymous said...

Mr Greenstein,

I am extremely curious, what is your interpretation of Mr. Reynold’s words? He clearly suggests more Christians are required in the City. Now, were this to happen, it would necessitate some City workers to leave. You are right; that Reynolds speaks in religious categories, so who do you imagine he wants to leave? The Hindus? The Sikhs? The vast collective of Islamic stock exchange traders? The hoards of Buddhist hedge fund operators?

Crucially, this was Reynolds suggestion, not Atzmon’s. Indeed Atzmon was pretty gracious in permitting Reynolds to disown the clear implication of his message, as much as he is gracious in glazing over your prolific list of ‘un-Christian’ activities.

Reading Atzmon’s clarification, he doesn't betray much. He tells Reynolds he isn’t an anti-Semite. But he didn't really call him an anti-Semite in the first place Unlike you Mr Greenstein, Atzmon is not a goy hunter nor does he believe in anti-Semitism. He knows, as many of us know, that the witch hunt of anti-Semites is there to serve the tribal cause. Those who chase anti Semites are either zionists, Sayans or collaborators.

Aisha

Tony Greenstein said...

Aisha is, of course, being disingenuous i.e. dishonest.

Reynolds didn't suggest anyone leave, he simply meant that the introduction of what he considers 'christian ethics' would somehow prevent the behaviour of the various spivs, speculators and other greedy capitalists.

Of course I don't agree with him. Its endemic in the capitalist system but the suggestion that what he really meant was 'dejudification' is a reflection of Atzmon's putrid mind not the naivety of Reynolds.

Atzmon's 'clarification' was of course nothing of the sort. It was a response to a threat of a libel action!

I don't agree with the suggestion that Reynold's reputation is being traduced as anyone who reads the original article will know that Atzmon was lying (again).

I would like to say that it was Atzmon's reputation that was being traduced, but then that would be impossible given all his previous utterances and writings.

REJ GOCH said...

I see your new policy of censoring only applies when criticism is directed at you. It's OK for you to accuse someone else of being "disingenuous i.e. dishonest" but not for anyone else to suggest that these terms might be better applied to you. Old style Stalinism dies hard.

Tony Greenstein said...

If Goch thinks I'm being politically dishonest then he is more than entitled to express that view without being censored. It is only abuse and holocaust denial or racist comments that are blocked

Anonymous said...

Mr Greenstein, I wonder what ethical acrobats enable you to rebuke Atzmon for proposing *spiritual* dejudification while supporting Reynold's right to suggest 'introducing Christian ethics'?

Leaving aside the fact that the City operates with the same psychopathic tyranny as the Jew-only state, why do you ask us to imagine that Reynolds refers to an ideology while Atzmon refers to flesh & blood traders? This slip betrays 1) that you aknowlege a significant proportion of Jews do indeed work in the stock market & 2) that you harbor a tribal idenification with them - hence you are propelled to stand up for them even though they are evil capitalists & you are a good, earnist Marxist. All that matters is they are Jewish & so are you.

You are so incoherent Mr Greenstein, that you are defending the rights Jews not be kicked out of a place that you deny they work in!

It takes a bit more than repeating the word 'traduced' a few times to forge an argument Tony.

And by the way, why are you so convinced that Reynolds threatened libal action?

Aisha

joe90 said...

What is the world coming to?

Now even Atzmon is joining the chorus of 'Jewish gatekeepers' and giving himself the right to decide who is and isn't antisemitic!

Who is Atzmon to decide such things as who is and isn't antisemitic?

It just goes to show how deep the 'Jewish national tribalism' thingy runs. Not even a self-proclaimed, self-deprogrammed, self-rehumanised, ex-Jew such as Atzmon is immune from the scourge of operating in a 'Jewish ethnic tribal context' whatsitsname.

...all Jewish tribal political operations are different forms of Zionist formulas that are set to pressure different sectors and to promote different and sometimes even conflicting Jewish interests.
Gilad Atzmon - Credit Crunch or rather Zio Punch?

Why doesn't Atzmon stop operating as a 'Jewish tribal elder' so-an-so, abandon his 'Jewish ethnic national consciousness' and join the rest of us in human race?

Atzmon should try harder to de-judify himself, and denounce the 'Jewish gatekeepers', not join in with them!

This is why the likes of Hitler and Himmler couldn't help themselves, and also why the victims of the Nazis only had themselves to blame. To de-Judify the Jews doesn't mean the rest of us have to act like nazis, but let's face it, it's a distinction without a difference.:-)


all the best azvas!
joe90 kane


ps
Speaking of intellectual nobodies -
Old style Stalinism dies hard.
You're in good company rej noboby.
Another of Atzmon's helpers also accused Tony Greenstein and azvas blog of censorship, namely Mike Ezra aka 'Mikey'.
Mikey is someone who also does what he can to help the cause of the racist Israeli regime by associating it's critics (and Palestinians) with antisemitism.

Speaking of Stalinist self-censorship,
where is this international revolutionary cv of yours rej zero - or are you like atzmon and don't like to practice what you preach?

Tony Greenstein said...

Aisha thinks I am performing 'ethical acrobats.' Not at all.

I know nothing of Reynolds but imagine he is pretty typical of those hand-wringing, well meaning Church of England churchmen who believe that a healthy dose of Christian morality is what is needed in the City. I disagree of course but this is entirely different from Atzmon's poisonous call for dejudification. That assumes that 'Jewishness' or some other apparent 'attribute' of Jews is responsible for what has happened to world capitalism.

Of course we are a long way from the capitalism of 70+ years ago whereby we had hyper inflation, stock market collapses and a recent world war. I'm not saying similar conditions might not reoccur but there are also differences - lack of a strong labour movement coupled with a willingness of capitalist leaders and their political servants to take action to back up the banks and stock markets. And if blame were to be laid then no, I don't believe Jews would be the target.

I have no idea as to how many Jews or people of Jewish origin work in the City, nor am I in the slightest bit interested. Unless it is being alleged that Jewish spivs and speculators behaved any differently from their non-Jewish equivalents. Of course to the Atzmons of this world it isn't speculator capitalism and the free market which is to blame but Jewish capitalists.

There is no meaningful comparison between the City of London and Israel. It's like comparing chalk and cheese or bagels and pork chops! One is a State the other is an Institution. You bigots are I'm afraid not very subtle or for that matter informative.

I harbour no identification with any member of the City of London. Clearly being a racist, Aisha doesn't understand what being opposed to capitalism means because it's race not class that motivates him/her just as it does Zionism.

So why s/he thinks I'm 'standing up' for them I can't imagine. I stand against racism and racists not in favour of capitalists - be they Jewish or Hindu.

So the fool suggests 'I'm
'defending the rights Jews not be kicked out of a place that you deny they work in'. Not at all, I want the place abolished, I don't much care what the religious or other attachment of individual traders are.

And just let us say that I am reliably informed that Atzmon's apology - quite remarkable for an arrogant buffoon like him - was not prompted by a non-existent conscience but the possibility of his bank balance being affected!

Tony Greenstein

REJ GOCH said...

Joe Kane is priceless. This whole site is based on Greenstein's assertions as to who and what is anti-semitic. If that is a crime in Joe's eyes then his guru Greenstein is certainly guilty of it.I see that he remains onsessed with cvs. Doesn't he get it it? Nobody cares. I am not applying for a job. I do not seek your approval. A couple of corrections to your usual spin might be helpful. I can't find anywhere where Atzmon says explicitly or even by implication that 'dejudification' is a solution to anything let alone the financial crisis. Secondly, the clarification issued concerned not the aerticle as a whole, but any perceived implication that Reynolds might be anti-semitic. You must stop inventing a parallel world tailored to your own paranoia.

REJ GOCH said...

No censorship! 2 posts have now been blocked. Why don't you print them and let others judge your standards? You can't face too much criticism.

Tony Greenstein said...

I see our good friend Goch is getting his knickers in a twist.

I haven't rejected anything of his and there are now 3 of his comments up about this. If any of his posts were posted under anonymous and were advocating holocaust denial then yes I did reject them but assuming they were not his then nothing has been censored.

I agree. Joe Kane is priceless, pity the same can't be said about Rej!

I'm pleased to know that Goch isn't applying for a job with me, that way I won't have to go through the process of disappointing him!

Atzmon stated that Reynold's had called for the dejudification of the City of London. He has now apologised for that slur and that was what was anti-Semitic, so stop logic chopping and nitpicking Rej.

On second thoughts, why should you change the habits of a lifetime?

REJ GOCH said...

The previous post appeared only long after my complaint. There is still one earlier post missing, which I did not post anonymously as I never post without using my name. Your inability to read and understand are undiminished - the joke about the 'job' was in response to Kane's demanding a cv from me. As usual you see what you want to see. This also explains why you can't understand why I took you to task for your misleading heading.'Logic chopping' - that's nice coming from you!

Tony Greenstein said...

Dear Goch,

resend the post you believe I didn't post and of course I'll have a look at it. Perhaps it didn't arrive. I'm sure I would have remembered your treasured and measured comments!

joe90 said...

As usual you see what you want to see.
revolutionary rej
is such an epoch-making character, he is the only revolutionary in history to sport an invisible cv.

Goch nullity,
another 'outstanding personality' in the making it seems.
We'll have to get a petition up for him too.


It seems that Atzmon is right after all. Being Jewish does come before being human.

As we all know, Atzmon has bored everyone to death, again and again, by confessing that he has undergone self de-judification, re-humanised himself and successfully managed to join the rest of the human race for the very first time ever.

On the current evidence, though, it seems not. It seems he blew his little horn too soon.

Atzmon has obviously fell off the wagon of humanity and rejoined his old 'Jewish Gatekeeper' pals, deciding who gets to join the debate and who doesn't.
How dare Atzmon accuse anyone of not being an antisemite!
Why is he always going about the Jews and not about Palestinians?

You can take the Atzmon out of Acre, but you can't take the Acre out of Atzmon.


Or
has brave Atzmon, man of prinicples, abjectly caved into the zionists and Jewish gatekeepers and been forced to humiliatingly make a public declaration distancing himself from every principle (for want of a better description) he has ever held dear?

When it came to the (debt :-)) crunch, Atzmon caved in to the Jewish gatekeepers rather than confront them, especially when it really mattered ie when it was personally going to affect his finances.

When you think of the sacrifices other people have made and do make in pursuit of peace and justice for all, then surely it wouldn't have been too much to ask Atzmon to put his gibberish ideas and principles to the test?


So where does Atzmon's ego go from here?
Hopefully the same place revolutionary rej keeps his cv.

REJ GOCH said...

Rather than going back to a post that 'mysteriously' disappeared, I think I will content myself with waiting for you to respond to the points I raised on Oct 16 at 12.53Not that, on previous experience, I can expect much more than insults and obfuscation.

Deborah said...

There's an item in this week's JC saying that Reynolds is still considering suing Atzmon.

http://www.thejc.com/node/6970

Deborah Maccoby

REJ GOCH said...

Here we go again! The last post hasn't appeared again. I'm not sure you are censoring or whether you are just as lazy in maintaining your site as you are in constructing your arguments.

tony greenstein said...

Well I'm glad the ever po lite Goch isn't resubmitting his comment. Probably can't remember what it's about either!

Yes I'm being lazy or rather I've spent most of the day submitting an employment tribunal application for sex discrimination and unfair dismissal. if that's lazy so be it but I can't spend that much time on blogging I'm afraid.

Glad to hear Debbie that Reynolds is still thinking of suing. Atzmon might indeed think it's a world conspiracy against him, except that Reynolds anyway is Christian.

Ah Goch. Not the brightest lamp in the universe are we? Yes Atzmon was the one who raised 'judaification' albeit in the negative. Noone else did. is that so hard to understand (even for an ex-teacher?).

REJ GOCH said...

What a busy and important man you must be. But surely the points I put to you are not so difficult to understand and reply to. You seem to have a knack of deflecting questions by raising quite different issues. Incidentally, don't you realise how bad Kane's incessant abuse makes you look. You really ought to get him under control.

joe90 said...

This whole site is based on Greenstein's assertions as to who and what is anti-semitic. If that is a crime in Joe's eyes then his guru Greenstein is certainly guilty of it
- Atzmon says antisemitism doesn't exist. So why then go to all the trouble of singling out individuals and declaring them antisemitism-free, as if there was any doubt?

Obviously, even Atzmon can't swallow his own gibberish - unlike his sad shoal of dead-head followers like like rej block-head.


This whole site is based on Greenstein's assertions as to who and what is anti-semitic.
- No. This site is dedicated to protecting Palestinians and their friends from accusations of antisemitism. A simple enough concept to understand, as their deadly enemies are always accusing them of this unjustified crime, all the better to destroy them both.

Maybe rev rej can enlighten me and tell me who he considers is antisemitic, and maybe even, why?
Or even, why isn't Reynolds an antisemite?


I see that he remains onsessed with cvs. Doesn't he get it it? Nobody cares. I am not applying for a job. I do not seek your approval.
- At least you know you're own name rej Nobody.
However I think you'll find that you yourself used to care a great deal and never stopped mentioning its existence -

As a revolutionary socialist of more than 40 years standing...
13 May 2008 21:40

As for whether I am a revolutionary socialist or not, I am quite prepared to stand on my record, ...
14 May 2008 00:02

Tony Greenstein said...

Ah but I think it's you who deflect questions you can't answer. Who was it who raised dejudification if not Atzmon? Reynolds didn't do that, that was Atzmon's own warped interpretation of what he said.

And why Mr Goch do you always feel the need to defend Atzmon? He's not a socialist. You claim to be one so why do you defend someone who is incapable of thinking other than in racial categories?

Tony G

mary said...

This one is great!
"REJ:This whole site is based on Greenstein's assertions as to who and what is anti-semitic."
"JOE KANE- No. This site is dedicated to protecting Palestinians and their friends from accusations of antisemitism. A simple enough concept to understand, as their deadly enemies are always accusing them of this unjustified crime, all the better to destroy them both."

What irony! And why are you still so obsessed with Tony's obsession, Joe? Or don't the Palestinians have their own problems rather than the ones Tony comes up with to make people avoid the crap he passes off as "the decent Jewish activist, to differentiate himself from the others, who, following logic, are not decent.

Joe, my site is called an anti-semitic cesspool bu Tony and THIS site is for Palestinians!! Funny, 75% of the contributions on my site are from Palestinans, another 10 from Arabs from various countries, almost every single article is reprinted on various sites around the world, including many Palestinian ones, and we are growing in size and interest in a way that will never happen for this ridiculous monothematic niche of a niche site. We get about 10 articles by Palestinians for consideration A DAY to select for submission, and pity we don't have time to set all of them up. My two collaborators are Haitham Sabbah, (Palestinian) and of course Gilad who is supported by Palestinian people far beyond Tony's wildest dreams. Why not take your problem with Haitham and see how he responds to you. Just look at the various petitions for GA and complaints against you, Tony, written and signed by Palestinians and Arabs and activists who you have nothing to do with because they are serious. It is Tony's envy that he tries to make up lies that they were created by Atzmon or me. He cannot get used to the idea that no one hates GA or me the way you do... except for the Zionists! Try to comprehend why. Try to deal with it Joe.

Why not come up with a lie that is better for you to defend?

As to GA collaborating with Mikey, that is another TG fantasy. It seems Deborah Maccoby (who supports the RIGHT of Jews from anywhere in the world to live in Palestine, by the way, and still calls herself a POST Zionist, NOT anti Zionist, mind) gets on quite well with the man, and the two of them have a cozy little thing going on!

joe90 said...

The screaming skull strikes again - empty assertions, unproven claims and all the usual ego-tripping windbaggery of the likes of atzmon and his acolytes, such as rizzo.


What irony! And why are you still so obsessed with Tony's obsession, Joe? Or don't the Palestinians have their own problems...
- Mary in confessional mode, reminding us all that only she knows what Palestinian's real problems are, and everybody else doesn't.

What arrogance from this 'outstanding personality' - or is it just screaming mary rizzo assuming the role of being a 'Jewish gatekeeper' and arrogating to herself the power to decide who gets to take part in the debate?


We get about 10 articles by Palestinians for consideration A DAY to select for submission, and pity we don't have time to set all of them up.
- But you aren't Palestinian Mary.
You are just an antisemite out to justify crimes carried out by the Israeli government, and its supporters, against Palestinians.

Notice Mary giving everybody else orders, as to what they should and shouldn't be doing - if that isn't gatekeeping I don't know what is.


In contrast to Rizzo's lack of evidence for my obssession with TG - here are just a few concrete examples of Rizzo obsession with Atzmon -
- Screaming Lord Mary refused to criticise antisemitic Atzmon when he refered to Palestinians and their friends as 'bookburners' (antisemitic shades of the Spanish Inquisition and Nazi book-pogroms).

- Screaming Lord Mary refused to criticise Atzmon for associating with anti-Muslim racists from 'Harry's Place' blog.

- Rizzo agrees with Atzmon (and with the likes of David Irving and others of his ilk) that the victims of the Nazis desreved the crimes visited upon them. I mean, why else would sane indiviudals such as Himmler and Hitler, and civilised institutions such as the Nazi Party and the SS build death camps in the first place, if it wasn't for Jewish provocations?
Tell me Mary,
what has Nazi crimes against their victims 65 years ago got to do with Palestinians today?


...and still calls herself a POST Zionist, NOT anti Zionist, mind
- What would you know about modern nationalism and its history Mary?
You've already proven you haven't a clue what it was and is about.

For instance, Rizzo criticises those who refer to zionism when discussing modern Palestinian history. This is the equivalent of trying to discuss modern Australian Aborigonal history, or First Nation North Americans without refering to European colonisation and imperialism.
Anybody who did try to produce such skewed history would rightly be labelled 'racist'.

As to GA collaborating with Mikey, that is another TG fantasy.
- That's a proven collaboration.


It seems Deborah Maccoby ...
- Take your tittle-tattle and gossip up with the people concerned Mary.
Collaborating on dirt-digging with anti-Palestinians, as Atzmon does, isn't the same thing as your vacuous society page gossip column news.

...who is supported by Palestinian people far beyond Tony's wildest dreams.
- As usual, Rizzo mistakes popularity for solidarity. The two aren't the same. This is just another society column, idle, chit-chat entry of no worth like most of her comment.

I thought she promised never to comment on azvas as well.

REJ GOCH said...

Nice one Mary! And what is the response - a torrent of abuse from Kane. I thought Greenstein promised to control abuse like this, but we all soon learn that what he means by abuse is anything that happens to annoy him at a particular moment. As you so rightly point out, what really gets to them is their existence on the margins of a margin!

Tony Greenstein said...

I think Mary must have been having an off day if she thinks that Debbie M supports the right of 'return' for Jews to Palestine.

As for Atzmon's collaboration with Mikey, an obnoxious little Zionist whose arrogance is only matched by his insignificance, it is I'm afraid documented.

Try this:

'Mikey, I hope you do not mind me saying that, but your contribution for the pls solidarity movement is priceless.... Gilad Atzmon | 03.04.07 - 10:46 am | #

Mikey, take your time, and make sure that i know when you post your answers. Your view on the subject may be very interesting and i tell you why. If we have peace in the ME, it is you, rather than Greenie, who is going to be a partner. You are the Zionist, the Jew ideologist. Unlike Greenie, you are intellectually and ethically orientated. i will wait to hear from you.
Gilad Atzmon | 03.06.07 - 5:03 pm


While, I am totally convinced that Greenie is a total idiot (may even be the absolute one) and a mental case. I do believe that you are morally orientated and intellectually sensitive enough to move one step further. I wonder whether we should continue it here on this blog, what do you think? Do you want to face the devil? Do you want to counter your blindness?

all the best
g
Gilad Atzmon | 03.08.07 - 9:24 am

However, Good luck with Greenie and thanks for all the info you gave us about this low being.
Peace is the way forward
G
Gilad Atzmon | 03.08.07 - 4:02 pm

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/thecutter/117192641046077827/

Sorry Mary? What was that about the Zionist Atzmon not working hand in hand with the Zionist Mikey? Do tell!!

You might take Atzmon out of Zionism, but you won't take Zionism out of Atzmon.

Tony G

mary said...

true Rej. Kane never ceases to amaze with his fire and bluster and inability to express a logical thought.

Who said I was Palestinian? My site is Palestine Think Tank, I am one of the editors. 85% of the content is from Palestinians.

So what is the problem Joe??

Now, Yes Deborah admits she is in favour of the Jewish Homeland in Palestine. Read it on Mikey's site, which I found by virtue of Tony! Take it up with Deborah, Greenstein. She wrote it, not me!

And, because someone agrees with someone on some things (for instance, many people agreeing with Mikey that Tony is a liar and one who makes false claims as well as not being a pillar of morality himself, including his brilliant comments about Palestinians, all on record on my sites... this is why Tony Greenstein won't comment there anymore... He needs complete control to edit out his embarassing comments.. As well as editing out the embarassing ones by Joe expressing his Admiration of Gilad!...

so does that mean they COLLABORATE WITH MIKEY?

Only in the weird world of Tony Greenstein.

And of course, Joe, popularity is not an issue here in your eyes, because it would show how totally irrelevant you and Tony are because you are speaking only to your own little clique. Thousands read and publish Atzmon, so apparently it is just an issue of your envy! Because others are interested in what he has to communicate. I would imagine that would make you uncomfortable!

mary said...

Deborah said...
Dear Mikey,

First of all, I wouldn't call myself an anti-Zionist, because I am in favour of a Jewish national presence in the Jewish homeland, though I do think the best way to solve the Israel/Palestinian conflict is for Israel to abandon the outdated ethnic nation-state model and find a new model, such as a binational or federated state. I suppose this would make me a post-Zionist.

... put that in your pipe and smoke it, Greenstein.

Tony Greenstein said...

Ho hum. I wondered how long it would be before Mary returned! Clearly can't resist a fix.

But Mary attacking Joe for an inability to express a logical thought clearly takes the biscuit. Her post is itself a demonstration of that.

But no doubt 85% of her 'think tank' consists of Palestinians. Who said Palestinians don't include a fair amount of wind bags? But who controls what goes in or not? Ah yes. The non-Palestinian Rizzo, who undoubtedly is an honorary Palestinian (in her own eyes at least).

But the truth is that unfortunately many Palestinians are easily flattered and hear what they want to hear. That is, at least in part, why their situation today is as desperate as it ever has been. To tell the truth may sometimes be difficult but it is also more rewarding.

As I don't go to Mikey's site I can't comment on what Mary says. However it's not simply a question of Atzmon and Mikey agreeing that Tony is a terrible person. Of course that would not mean collaboration. It's when they work together, do business, congratulate each other and when Atzmon goes out of his way to praise Mikey's deep philosophical train of thought.

It's really the old argument about anti-Semitism and Zionism being 2 sides of the same racist coin. It's not something that either Rizzo or Atzmon even understand To them Zionism and being Jewish are the same, not Zionism and anti-Semitism. But more and more people are coming to understand that the essentialist views of Atzmon, that being Jewish is an unchangeable, racial category, is no different from the take of Zionism. As I say, it's not an argument Mary understands given her limited intelligence.

Deborah is, despite her own description, what I would call a soft anti-Zionist. A consistent supporter of the Palestinians who constantly has braved the attacks, physical and verbal of Zionists, she nonetheless ponders over what solution there can be.

Post-Zionist is meaningless and covers a multitude of sins. if anything that is Atzmon, since the central point of post-Zionism is that Zionism has no relevance any longer now that the state has been established. That is what Atzmon argues, that Zionism is of no relevance to anyone in Israel and that is also the argument which Mary takes up when she doubts that Israel is a settler colonial country and if it is it doesn't matter.

The idea of binationalism today, although I disagree with it, is certainly not a variant of Zionism.

So much as I am amenable to smoking virtually everything, I have to forego the temptations to smoke Rizzo's poison.

Tony G

mary said...

Gosh Tony,
One of your "anti-Zionist" comrades is there talking about the Jewish homeland and all you can do is lecture me?

I think you should be a bit alarmed by what Deborah is promoting. I don't mean the binational state, but the actual idea that Israel is the Jewish Homeland.

Any of the rest of your wind is just that, irrelevant. You have a far more important matter to discuss with your colleague and comrade. I wonder how you can really work together politically with this massive divergence of viewpoint. Unless you too believe that Israel is the Jewish Homeland.

And your comment about how many Palestinians like to be flattered is really disgusting. Why do you patronise them so much? Do you always know better than they do what is good for them and what they believe is right?

REJ GOCH said...

Yet again my last post has been censored for no good reason and I note that Mary's comments on your fixation with Maccoby and its consequences has also not appeared. You can't look yourself in the mirror - it's just too painful!

joe90 said...

100% EX-JEWISH ANTIMSEMITE EDITORIAL GATEKEEPERS

My site is Palestine Think Tank, I am one of the editors. 85% of the content is from Palestinians.
- Two-thirds of the Stink Tank 'editors' are ex-Jewish antisemites who both believe the victims of the Nazis deserved what they got.

How can you have a 'Palestinian' site when the editors aren't Palestinian?

The token Arab on the stink tank editorial team, according to Rizzo's own comments, is relegated to doing most of the sofware donkey work, while the two Europeans get on with doing the antisemitic gatekeeping of Arabs and Palestinians.


GILAD AND MARY OF ARABIA
One of the 'editors' thinks she's a 'Palestinian mother' and the other goes by the name of 'Abu Jihad' - pretending to be a couple of of Lawrence of Arabias! If that isn't living in a dream world, then I don't know what is.

I also notice the content of the stink tank has moved from 75% to 85% Palestinian in the space of two of Rizzo's comments.


Rizzo thinks Palestinian history can be explained without reference to the crimes perpetrated against Palestinians by western colonialism and and imperialism.
If that isn't racist, I don't know what is?

Rizzo has some kind of view that Palestinians alone are some kind of touchstone of truth - this is a particularly racist view that, somehow, people from different ethnic backgrounds are essentially different from one another.
This is a kind of inverted racism, which is still racism.
Prentending Palestinians, or Arabs, are more perfect than anyone else is nonsense.
But how funny that Atzmon and Rizzo pretend to be Arabs, and that they claim they are popular with Arabs - if Arabs are as perfect as these two claim they are, then what does that make these two ex-jewish stink tank gatekeepers?


BLACKMAIL
As well as editing out the embarassing ones by Joe expressing his Admiration of Gilad!...
- I have never claimed I'm perfect and I've repeatedly told you I disown such a view.

Although, I would like to warn others (as I have said so umpteen times before) that private correspondence to Rizzo will be used by her for blackmail purposes against anyone who disagrees with her bringing antisemitsim into the cause of Palestinian solidarity and peace and justice for all in former Mandate Palestine.
Such is Rizzo's commitment to the higer values expected of those who wish to help the victims of racism and injustice.


CENSORSHIP
Rizzo claims she's being unfairly censored by azvas - this is someone without about 3-4 blogs to her name. Surely, it's no problem to correct distortions of others using her many blogs?
As Rizzo makes clear herself on this very blog uncensored,
....Tony is a liar and one who makes false claims....all on record on my sites.

It was Mary Rizzo who made the claim that she was never going to comment on azvas blog again, as well. Now that she has been shown not to be able to keep her word, she just smears azvas blog with accusation of censorship.

Rizzo being unfairly censored by azvas -
- this is someone who claims unprecedented popularity (on the internet!). Surely, such censorship shouldn't be too much of a problem for her, given her self-proclaimed widespread fan-club base?
After all, such an 'outstanding personality' even has a petition devoted to her and her ego (with something about Gazans appended as an afterthought).

Rizzo claims azvas censor's material which is embarrassing - but somehow manages to disprove this by providing eveidence to the contrary -
Read it on Mikey's site, which I found by virtue of Tony!


POLITICAL DEBATE Vs COLLABORATION
Best of all of course,
is Mary Rizzo being unable to differentiate bewteen Deborah leaving a comment on a blogsite - and Atzmon's collaboration in dirt-digging into people's private lives with anti-Hamas, anti-Muslim scumbags like Mike Ezra. Rizzo even describes to Deborah's political commenting as some kind of private liason -
As to GA collaborating with Mikey, that is another TG fantasy. It seems Deborah Maccoby .... gets on quite well with the man, and the two of them have a cozy little thing going on!

It turns out then, it's just a comment left by Deborah on somebody's blog, about the politics of former Mandate Palestine.

Rizzo doesn't even know the difference between collaboration and open political discussion and debate - no wonder Rizzo has no problems associating Palestinians with the poison of antisemitism, something the Israeli government also puts much effort into doing.

Tony Greenstein said...

Goch is whining about why his previous post didn't appear. As I explained to him:

'Mary's post has appeared. Yours hasn't because it doesn't say anything other than engage in abuse. Is it not possible for you to actually say something substantive rather than all your little snide asides? There are articles on the pogroms in Acre, the Boycott, stopping Palestinians who are ill going over the border, the thug like Community Security Trust yet all you are attracted to is an old post on Atzmon's anti-Semitism. I realise that you like to indulge in hero worship but if you wish to do so keep out the personal attacks and snide references.'

tony greenstein

And there's the rub. Goch has nothing to say about the Israel-Palestine conflict and nor for that matter has Mary. Hence why she has to puff up who contributes. Once again she uses Palestinians for her own, not inconsiderable, ego.

It's no secret that Debbie and I disagree over things like a unitary, secular, democratic state. But Debbie, unlike Mary, is in the thick of Palestine Solidarity work, boycott work, picketting Israeli events and at the end of the day that is what counts. She is also suffers from enormous abuse - whether it's Zionists like Gilad's friend Mikey for not conforming to her late father's Zionism - or from Atzmon for being Jewish.

Debbie is someone who is exploring what she thinks the best solution is. But she's not a Zionist also she may on occasion use words and concepts loosely.

She also spoke, in the same riposte, of Israel as an 'outdated ethnic nation-state'. That doesn't seem a Zionist position to me or even an endorsement of a Jewish national home.

Nice try though Mary.

mary said...

Deborah is a Zionist, sorry you can't see that Tony. You call her on a soul searching mission or something like it to cover up that you guys have a Zionist agenda.

This is just one thing she wrote, and I believe it kind of makes her "work for Palestinians" ridiculously suspect.

One state for Jews and Arabs

In dismissing the possibility of a bi-national state in Israel/ Palestine (Opinion, 22 September) Johann Hari ignores the constitutions of states such as Belgium, Switzerland and Canada, and the power-sharing solutions to the conflicts in Bosnia and Northern Ireland.

A bi-national state would recognise the national/collective rights of both Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews, so a Jewish national presence would continue to exist in the Jewish homeland - which is surely what Zionism is all about. Jews would in fact be able to live across the whole land, so a bi-national state would fulfil Zionist aspirations more than a state confined to the 1967 borders. Bi-nationalism would also fulfil the Zionist aspiration to create a just and equal society in the Jewish holy land - an aspiration which is certainly not fulfilled at present.

Many South African whites were terrified of being "swamped" by the majority black population, but in the end realised the irrationality of their fears. It is at least possible that in time Israeli Jews - who would be much more equal in numbers to Palestinian Arabs - will do the same.

Deborah Maccoby

Gosh... looks like that whole "one State" thing is so that Jews can go anywhere they want in Palestine, fulfilling Zionism. Wow. Wonder how her Palestinian activist friends feel about that one. I mean, the non-Jewish ones.

Joe, I didn't even bother to read all your mash. I don't have "a Palestinian" to do "donkey work" you ****ing racist you. Haitham is a dear friend and we created the site together because he wanted to do a group site with me for a while and the opportunity arose. We decided to do it together, the three of us, due to our political stand and our taste in editorial choices and you can continue to make snide remarks about it, the thousands who read it a day know better. And yes, 75% are indeed Palestinian contributors, but there are another 10% from Syria, Lebanon, Iraq who add to the "voice" of the site, which is indeed focused on giving voice to the need for Arab liberation, so when I reiterated, I lumped the two together, but this apparently is the thing that sticks out to Joe, no problems with the Zionist in cahoots with this site, NO, never! Joe probably thinks it's all hunky dory! How about that Celtic National Home we've been dreaming of... . (BTW, I never claimed to be Palestinian. The site I belong to is called Palestinian Mothers, and well well well, Even Sue B is a member... how dare she, you might ask. Not that she is active in any way... but still... Anyway, Joe, that is the argument the rightwing UK zionists use to attack me, isn't that funny?)

And, if you don't like it Tony and Joe, that Gilad and I are supported by many people, try to deal with it. 500 signed an open letter, and most of them also noticed that Tony tried to lie about who wrote it, about how it came about and about FAKED names, all of that debunked, with angry letters following by Hajo Mayer telling the world Shraga and Tony created a lie to spread around and he would not have it. So Tony tried to close down the site because having all those serious activists, a survivor of Auschwitz, scholars and Palestinians just probably hurts too much.

It is a fact, though, and this is why all your insults just run off my back. What I find FAR more interesting is the defence of Debbie. She is supporting a Jewish Homeland in Palestine, Tony.. haven't you noticed that is... a political project that is purely Zionist? Try to work that out, since it is interesting that I am a bigger deal to you than the Zionism of your bosum buddy. And you wonder why no one takes you seriously.

well, except for pottins, socialist unity and deborah. You are all dealing with a mental confusion and lack of ability to deliver any goods to the Palestinians, I wonder why you even pretend that is what you are about!

joe90 said...

And your comment about how many Palestinians like to be flattered is really disgusting. Why do you patronise them so much?
- This is according to a self-styled 'Palestinian Mother and self-chosen editor of the thoughts and views of Palestinians.

...you must be AS the way you patronise Jewish people all the time. It's the only explanation I can think of for you to have this obsession.
Atzmon & Rizzo's Petition - Signatories are Forged - comment 23 March 2008 23:50
- According to Rizzo I am guilty of patronising Jewish people due to my antisemitism.
How I can be antisemitic when antisemitism doesn't exist, Rizzo doesn't say. According to Atzmon, antisemitism is just a figment of the zionist imagination.
Maybe Rizzo cares to explain why she's operating in a Jewish ethical tribal way and why her racist guru Atzmon, is as well while we're about it, as this is the topic of this this post anyway?


...popularity is not an issue here in your eyes, because it would show how totally irrelevant you and Tony are because you are speaking only to your own little clique.
- How these Jewish gatekeepers, such as Tony Greenstein and his like, are able to control the world financial money markets, and the likes of the American Whitehouse whilst existing inside unpopular little cliques Mary doesn't say.


Mary of Arabia also doesn't say which official Arab or Palestinian organisations voted her as their spokesperson - neither does she say if there is any official public endorsements of her from any recognised leading Palestinian institutions.


Mind you, Gilad of Arabia has openly endorsed Palestinians as 'book-burners', thus associating them with the likes of the Nazis and also the Spanish Inquisition (the last being being a particularly hurtfull association perhaps to Arabs and Palestinians, regarding Muslims and their ethnic cleansing from Islamic Spain).

mary said...

And Tony,
you allow your other poster here to post whatever he will because it is just insult to me and to many people I know, including his remarks about Palestinians, that are utterly offensive and just over the top (I went back to read them, because I had to copy down some of his racist remarks and insults against others for future use). It is indeed a good thing that no one reads this site, and this is why you lament when I tell you precisely how popular PTT is, as was Pepa. It bothers you a great deal, because it shows something about the content and the contributors.

Yet, you will not post Rej's comment. Yes, you are a gatekeeper and a censor. This is what we knew all along, but your denial of it is what makes you the unique creature you are, shameless and ashamed of responding to the criticisms made to you.

You should learn how to manage a site if you want more than three readers, and a friend who checks out your little cluster of sites alerted me to you calling my site anti-semitic. I am not allowed to respond, that would be something really odd? according to you and Joe?
I know you would never respond on my sites, because you are indeed afraid of being on record where you lose ownership of your text and I have it all on record. Of course Joe doesn't like that people know what his own opinions are or have been, but he has a history of abusiveness on my board that is unrivalled. He can call it blackmail, but I call it just being an unstable person. I don't blame him for being a big horn here, no one but you takes him seriously. The problem is when you feed him, he thinks that is permission to abuse.

Joe Van Winkle, do you not know how to read? I talk all the time about it being an imperialist and colonialist project, so get another little litany to moan.

This little gem is priceless:
Rizzo has some kind of view that Palestinians alone are some kind of touchstone of truth - this is a particularly racist view that, somehow, people from different ethnic backgrounds are essentially different from one another.

Mary: well Joe, when it comes to knowing what is best for Palestinians, I trust Palestinians know that. It is their history, land, social and political condition. Who is anyone else to dictate what is best. So obviously, about the Palestinian situation, the Palestinians are indeed the touchstone of truth. Maybe one day you might be interested in listening to one or two, but I doubt that.

Joe: This is a kind of inverted racism, which is still racism.
Prentending Palestinians, or Arabs, are more perfect than anyone else is nonsense.

Mary: read the above and in addition, where do I use the word perfection? Take the caps lock off the hyperbole key. It is racism to listen to ANYONE else before listening to Palestinians regarding their future.

Joe: But how funny that Atzmon and Rizzo pretend to be Arabs,

Mary: Never pretended to be Arabs! Get a life Kane!

Joe: and that they claim they are popular with Arabs -

Mary: I know it hurts, but the facts speak louder than words. Gilad and I do our sites, writing, publishing and then all the other activism work like charity and benefit events, conferences, talks, editing and translating, networking and fundraising. So, yes, if you look at the support we have, it's pretty massive by many Palestinians in activism.

Joe: if Arabs are as perfect as these two claim they are, then what does that make these two ex-jewish stink tank gatekeepers?

Mary: What is that non-sequitur supposed to mean? Don't bother, actually, Joe.. just have another glass.

REJ GOCH said...

I have received an e mail from Greenstein saying that he will not put up any of my posts. I have challenged him to justify his censorship in public, but he ignores this. He is clearly not interested in defending what he says, perhaps because he has no defence.

Tony Greenstein said...

I'm not putting up Goch posts because they are abusive, say nothing about the real concerns of this site - the oppresssion of the Palestinians and are merely a defence of his pin up hero Atzmon.

If he posts without use of the word 'liar' or otherwise perjorative comments then I will post.

As for Mary's long winded wittering. Debbie M is probably a non-Zionist, but one who is active in the Boycott campaign but isn't politically formulated. She sees, as do many the Israeli Jews as a national grouping, but sometimes confuses that with the Zionist idea that all Jews are a nation, which I reject.

But Atzmon too sees Jews wherever they are as a national collectivity, or tribe as he refers to them, hence why he is a Zionist of a far greater hue than Debbie.

However I'd ra ther Debbie defended herself than me putting words into her mouth!

Deborah said...

I will make an attempt here to clarify my views, since obviously it isn't easy for Tony to do so, as he and I disagree so much. I'd like to start by saying they are my own idiosyncratic, personal opinions and don't in any way reflect upon Tony or Roland or anyone I happen to be on friendly terms with. Mary doesn't seem to understand that one can be a friend of someone while disagreeing deeply with - but respecting - their opinions. I don't think she understands the concept of respecting someone with whom one disagrees.

I do think there is such a thing as a Jewish people and a Jewish homeland, where Jews have now established a Jewish national presence. Maybe they shouldn't have done so, but the simple fact is that they have and this national presence is not going to go away.

I disagree with Tony about the Jewish homeland, since he argues that the homeland of Diaspora Jews is the country in which they are living. But I think people can have any number of homelands, and to most Diaspora Jews, including me, Israel is a spiritual homeland. I don't expect Tony or Roland ever to agree with this, and the fact that I hold this view doesn't reflect on them in any way at all. In fact, because of these disagreements, I am no longer a member of JAZ, as I have come to realise that my position can't be called anti-Zionist. But that doesn't make me a Zionist in the usual sense. Try telling Engage that I am their kind of Zionist!


I disagree also with Tony's definition of post-Zionism. To me, post-Zionism means the attempt to formulate a new way of establishing the Jewish national presence in the Jewish homeland. The ethnic nation state way has evidently failed.

Re the right of return - I agree with Ali Abunimah in his book "One Country". He recommends keeping the Jewish Law of Return together with the Palestinian Right of Return, as a gesture of recognition of the special ties between Israel and Diaspora Jews and of the Jewish need for a refuge. In this way, he writes, the new binational state will be both a Jewish national homeland and a Palestinian national homeland, at one and the same time.

For the record, I have actually signed a statement renouncing my "right" of return as a Jew to Israel, but of course if the Palestinian right of return was also recognised and implemented, then this statement would no longer hold - until then, I have renounced my "right of return". So much for my support of it as it is at present.

I hope I've made my ideas a bit clearer!


Deborah

REJ GOCH said...

THIS IS THE CHALLENGE - if the posts are 'abusive' as you claim then let everyone see what you mean. You must not confuse asking questions and challenging your statements with abuse. They are part of a normal discourse. This is the second time I have asked you to let readers judge for themselves. What are you afraid of?

joe90 said...

Deborah is a Zionist, sorry you can't see that Tony.
- Of course Deborah is a zionist Mary. Anyone who is Jewish is a zionist according to your antisemitic gatekeeping guru Atzmon. Unless you fundamentally disagree with him on this crucial part of his racist mumbo-jumbo?

Although I think not -
You are safe as milk, Tony, since you are a blog that protects Jewish interests (the figleaf category is yours) that will keep Israel safe forever.
The Death of Mary Rizzo's 'PeacePalestine' Sewer -
Comment made - 24 April 2008 08:02


And again -
You see, this is the core of Zionism. You are a Jew no matter what you think. It is a blood condition, which is what Hitler thought, which is what real anti-racists fight against. You seem to think Jewishness is something special? It's nothing special....
The Death of Mary Rizzo's 'PeacePalestine' Sewer -
Comment made - 24 April 2008 15:23



MARY ON COLONIALISM - IT DOES EXIST
Joe Van Winkle, do you not know how to read? I talk all the time about it being an imperialist and colonialist project, so get another little litany to moan.
- No you don't.
Here is an excerpt from an azvas article -
And when Pappe stated that ‘It's matter of colonialism.’ Rizzo took further exception. ‘Yes, it is also that.’ she proclaimed but ‘It is not for a colonial immigration such as one by the Italians in Libya… nor is it similar to French colonialism in Algeria or Indochina. It is a specific, ethnically oriented program to displace one ethnic group with another and to also take over the resources. Including in this the foundation of a new State that is independent and not a colony.’ (found near the foot of the article)
The Zionism of Gilad Atzmon, Mary Rizzo & Israel Shamir
azvas
05 Apr 2008

MARY ON COLONIALISM - IT DOESN'T EXIST
Rizzo took exception to two comments TG made in other fora, viz-

ironically Yedidya is quite right. But for the Zionists there would have been no Palestinian people. It was the British Mandate and the Zionist settlement project which created this people who would otherwise be living in Southern Syria, Arabia or whatever.
- and -
Why does a Palestinian people exist? Because Zionism, in its attempts to create a new Jewish nation in fact created its very opposite, the Palestinians. They were the group subjugated and expelled. Before the Zionists came there was no Palestinian nation and there was no group who claimed such a title. That is one of the ironies of Zionism.

Rizzo claims these two statements are examples of a Neo Nazi Zionist and also One who denies the Palestinian people..
See the following comments on the thread -
Atzmon & Rizzo's Petition - Signatories are Forged
Comment - 01 April 2008 23:26


Rizzo thought that one's attitude to such statements as these would...
...shine a light on what you think the struggle is, who the Palestinians are and where you are as far as history goes.

Depending on which statements you wish to use by Rizzo regarding her thoughts on western imperilaism-colonialism,she is and isn't a neo-nazi denier of the Palestinians.

This is the crazy mixed up mumbo-jumbo world of Rizzo and Atzmon.


JEWISH NATIONALISM
A characteristic of 'nationalism' is that any grouping of People are entitled to be a nation. It is even written part of the United Nations Charter and is part of international law. If Jewish People want to be formally recognised as a nation that's there buisness and part of their human rights. These are the same rights which apply to Palestinians and are universally applicable to all.

Like any human artefact, there is nothing intrinsically good or bad about nationalism, any nationalism - it's what you with it that's important.

To deny any People their right to be a nation is racist - to subject anybody to abuse because of their nationality is racist.


MARY OF ARABIA - THE NON-PALESTINIAN ANTISEMITIC GATEKEEPER
Mary: well Joe, when it comes to knowing what is best for Palestinians, I trust Palestinians know that.
- Like Rashid Khalidi perhaps? Why not listen to him when it comes to the history of Palestinian nationalism?
You only seem to take notice of the ones stupid and willing enough to massage your empty, ignorant, popularity-craving ego.

You don't trust Palestinians enough to let them edit your antisemitic stink tank. The only Arab there gets to do the housework, while the two Europeans allow themselves to do all the 'thinking' (for want of a better description).

If Palestinians are as truthful and perfect as you idealise them to be (except Rashid Khalidi of course, and others like Edward Said who say antisemites have no place in Palestinian politics), then why do they need a pair of antisemitic balloons like you and Atzmon to stand gatekeeping over them?


MARY'S ONLY ARGUMENT - MUD SLINGING
Of course Joe doesn't like that people know what his own opinions are or have been...
- Of course I don't,
hence the reason I use the world wide accessible internet to publish my opinions on, freely available to all.
I have been wrong about many things and freely acknowledge my errors and correct them accordingly. This is all perfectly rational and evidence of an open mind.

What Mary of Arabia is refering to is the tactics of mud-slinging and dirt-digging. When you have no arguments left, you and Atzmon sling mud and employ Arab-hating racists such as Mike Ezra of 'Engage' and 'Harry's Place' to rake through people's private lives and dustbins for anything personal you can use to shut your opponents up. Such is your love of democracy, freedom and open rational debate.
Typical racist gatekeepers.


....but he has a history of abusiveness on my board that is unrivalled. He can call it blackmail, but I call it just being an unstable person.
- Like the time I tried to get Rowan Berkeley to explain on your 'PeacePalestine' blog why the Jews were responsible for World War I, WWII and WWIII perhaps?
You allowed this atrocious piece of neo-nazi propaganda to go unchallanged and even claimed I was disrupting your blog comments because I wouldn't.

Much in the same way you refuse to answer the following I question, I have repeatedly put to you, here on azvas, but which you refuse to answer -
how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

REJ GOCH said...

"As it says, we oppose that small current around Israel Shamir and Gilad Atzmon who wish to introduce the ideas of racism and anti-Semitism into the Palestine solidarity movement." How can you pretend that your site is about one thing, when its very subtitle trumpets its real purpose is something quite different? Why do you object to accusations that you do not tell the truth, when your blog starts with a preposterous lie? This is not abuse. It's a statement of fact. I notice that you have suppressed another post and that you cannot face the challenge i have put to you twice now. Ah but I am ever the optimist and I'll give you a third opportunity. You can't say I didn't give you a chance.

azvsas said...

My response to Rej Goch is thus:

I'm not sure what the challenge you are making is but if you wish to demonstrate by factual argument, rather than mere abusive assertion, that what we say is untrue then there is no problem in letting your posts on. But simply calling people a liar isn't that way.

Yes the title takes up the question of Atzmon and the anti-Semitic current around the Palestine solidarity movement. I think that this is demonstrated and proven beyond all reasonable doubt.

Tony Greenstein said...

As Deborah says, people can disagree without engaging in abuse or vitriol. Something the Atzmons and Rizzos will never understand, given that they start from a position that any assertion of being Jewish, bar the religious orthodox, is itself a manifestation of Zionism.

Deborah confuses the existence of Jewish people, who certainly have a common heritage in terms of a shared experience of anti-Semitism (in the West anyway) and of course the Nazi holocaust and a shared religious practice, with a people nation. There is no basis for saying that Jews in Argentina and China are one and the same nation.

Nor do I buy the Israel as a spiritual homeland because this can mean anything and nothing. Palestine has a religious symbolism but it never had any practical import until non-Jewish Zionists took up the cry of Zionism as a naked attempt to promote a colonial settlement in Palestine as a bulwark against nascent Arab nationalism. A rag bag of orientalists, eccentric clerics (some of whom appear in Herzl's Diaries), politicians etc. Most of whom were anti-semitic.

So whatever has been established in Israel, one of the most racist states that has existed it is not a Jewish national presence.

People can have more than one homeland, on a temporary basis, but that is when someone leaves one country to go to another. But 2nd or 3rd generation Americans of Italian origin cannot seriously claim Italy as a homeland and likewise for Jews who've never lived in Israel.

I think Deborah's confused bi-nationalism, which rejects Jewish supremacy in Israel, including its Zionists organisations like the JNF, cannot be equated with Zionism which is a political movement which, to this day, promotes the Judaification of Israeli land and society.

Given Atzmon for example believes Zionism is irrelevant now that Israel is an established fact then how can one accuse Deborah of being a Zionist? These are the contortions of our anti-Semitic fringe.

I think Post-Zionism means different things to different people. It's an attempt to evade the past and pretend one can begin with a fresh sheet of paper, but most post-Zionists don't reject the idea of a Jewish state.

I disagree with Ali Abunimah but understand that given the weakness of the Palestinians and this is a true and terrible weakness, not least politically, that they feel they should make such concessions as a Jewish right of return. It is a concession I don't agree with but at the end of the day it is for Palestinians themselves to make concessions, not for people like myself to stand hard and fast.

Yes it is a strange Zionist who renounces the right of return for Jews!

Tony Greenstein

joe90 said...

I have the greatest respect for Deborah
for having the courage to even suggest that perhaps 'zionism' might be a benign form of nationalism. That it might still not be too late for the historical course of zionism to change. After all, European settlement of the US, Australia, New Zealand, Rhodesia etc changed for the better.

For what its worth,
zionism seems to me to have some of the characteristics of a pan-nationalism, similar to old-style pan-Germanism and pan-Slavism. It is a bit unfortunate pan-Germanism is firmly associated with the Nazis. Hitler never regarded himself as German but as 'Germanic'. Pan-Slavism's own historical current emerges, time and again, first under the umbrella of the Czars and then Soviet Russia.

all the best Deborah!

mary said...

Deborah:
I will make an attempt here to clarify my views, since obviously it isn't easy for Tony to do so, as he and I disagree so much. I'd like to start by saying they are my own idiosyncratic, personal opinions and don't in any way reflect upon Tony or Roland or anyone I happen to be on friendly terms with. Mary doesn't seem to understand that one can be a friend of someone while disagreeing deeply with - but respecting - their opinions. I don't think she understands the concept of respecting someone with whom one disagrees.

Mary: interesting... why not take that problem up with Tony and Joe, whose main issue is always lumping people together and stating that their ideas are the same and then continuing to reiterate lies and false information, when it has been demonstrated that what they claim is false. It is just there to repeat their same false statements that they are unable to support but by quoting one another!! But, it really doesn't matter that you are supported because you are a friend, and that even though you are supporting ideas that would hold little sway with any Palestinian liberation movements, because it is clear that the rest of what you wrote would be appropriate in many settler sites, as a matter of fact. You may know that the core issue is and always has been the question of the legitimacy of allowing unlimited Jewish immigration into Palestine. Perhaps AA is going the pragmatic route, and that is his business, and just because he is a Palestinian does not mean his strategy is the right one. In fact, I don't know of important theorist or scholar who would support such a dramatically unfair idea, but most involved in this issue are aware that there are limits to territory, water, resources, and unlimited immigration is indeed going to prevent any kind of return of refugees, which, unless you are unaware of it, is an established right that is present in international conventions. If you want to make the Jewish "right" to the entirety of Palestine equivalent to the Palestinian "right" to the entirety of Palestine, then this is indeed your own political mess to sort out.

It is clear that the One State paradigm is there to resolve your own idea of privilege and entitlement and if you can in some way make it less "morally" unacceptable for Palestinians, then you will portray yourself as one who is doing it for the good of everyone. The gig is up, Deborah, sorry, but I don't think that you can be taken seriously as an activist for anything but for Jewish issues and some kind of reform of the Diaspora focus to make it "kinder and gentler" on aliyah, by also allowing that Palestinians should have some rights to Palestine, equivalent to those of the Jewish Holy Land.

I think there should be some serious analysis of your position and of the matter that holding this position, Tony still insists that you are not a Zionist.

Of course you are, but that is something I was aware of for a long time, Tony now has to wake up to the fact.

Deborah said...

Dear Tony,

You may think I'm confused, but I find your attitudes somewhat rigid! I think Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans etc often do see the country of their ancestors as a homeland, as well as seeing the US as their homeland, and I don't see what's wrong with this. I've never agreed with the accusation of "dual loyalties" - I think people can have as many loyalties as they like.

I'm not arguing that there is a direct ancestral line between modern-day Jews and the ancient Jews, but there is in Judaism a strong spiritual/religious connection with the ancient Jewish homeland - again I'm not arguing that this gave modern Jews any right to set up an ethnic nation state there, but still you can;t deny the feeling of connection. You only have to open the Prayer Book to see all the references to the land - though I'm sure you haven't opened a prayer book for many years!


You can also employ all the arguments you want against the Jews being a people (I think people is different from nation), but the fact is that most Jews do think of themselves as a people, and if 14 million people seem themselves as a people, then they are a people (to paraphrase Uri Avnery, who said in the Knesset once in answer to Golda Meir's arguments that the Palestinians weren;t a people: "if five million people think they're a people, they're a people".)

I may seem to you even more confsued if I add tbat I would not oppose a genuine two state solution which gave the Palestinians a viable state of their own. Anything which could give the Palestinians some justice and which they felt they could live with should be supported, in my view, despite any personal objections I might have to it. But I can enlist here the support of Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky, who could hardly be called Zionists - at least not in the Engage sense! However, I think Israel itself has now destroyed the possibility of a viable two-state solution.

all the best,


Deborah

REJ GOCH said...

I am trying very hard to work out what is going on in your head. First of all you claim not to have received posts , then you accept that you have received posts but have cut them because they are abusive, then you print other posts out of context, which hardly differ in tone from the ones you have banned. In the meantime you refuse to reprint the banned text so that people can judge for themselves whilst at the same time allowing Kane to abuse at will. You can see my difficulty. Whatever is going on in there, it is very hard to follow the 'logic'.

tony greenstein said...

My response to Goch is:

The logic is:
i. I'm extremely busy at the moment so I don't have time to go through all of this.
ii. Argue the issue not the man.
iii. If you think we have been unfair to Atzmon over the dejudification comment explain why rather than beating around the bush accusing people of being liars. Yes my judgment of what goes in is subjective since it all seem to be much of the same I let in some and not others.

azvsas said...

The arrogance of May is matched only by her ignorance. Her ability to assume what Palestinians think is touching but misplaced. In fact the Palestinians are at their wits end, with a collaborationist leadership. The bombast from Mary is in stark contrast to reality.

Debbie,

I don't accept that references to Jerusalem in the prayer book mean anything other than a spiritual attachment without any political meaning. There was nothing to stop Jews emigrating there prior to the 20th century. There were no immigration barriers under feudalism.

Jews today are NOT Jews of yesteryear. in so far as Jews, in Britain or the USA, think of themselves as a people separate from those they live amongst and see themselves as belonging to Israel, then endanger themselves. They deliberately estrange themselves from the societies they live among. People have only one home unless they are rich enough to have 2. In European law you can have only one place of habitual residence, it is where you habitual centre of interests lie. (Swaddling et al).

What happens in the future is anyone's guess. Two states is dead in the water but if and when the West tires of Israel, not least because the oil has run out and the wealth of Arabia has been spent in weapons rusting in the desert, then anti-semitism might recur with all the dangers that come from Israel's nuclear bomb. The question isn't anti-Zionism or this futile search for identity and homeland, it is how the privileged apartheid state of israel can be overthrown without bloodshed.

And that is where Mary and her cacophony are so blind. Because without the overthrow of imperialism's client states in Arabia and the Gulf it will not be possible to politically undermine Zionism and make it too costly for imperialism. that is why the fight for the revolutionary overthrow of the Arab regimes is almost a precondition for Palestinian liberation, bearing in mind that the numbers of Israeli Jews and Palestinians, unlike other white settler regimes, is roughly comparable.

Tony

joe90 said...

That's the real nub of the issue about nationalism for Jewish people,
is that fact that Judaism is a relgion but can be seen as a 'People' or 'nation'. This doesn't sit easily with the way political history has developed the world into contiguous interlocking states.

However, this view of a congregation, as both religious and as a unified people, is even prevalent amongst Muslim folk who look to the day of a re-unified Ummah under a renewed Caliphate. This hope is a sort of version of a current in Jewish history.

As I said, the UN thinks it is legitimate for Jewish People, if they want, to claim to be a nation and to dismiss a People's claims as racist, is racist itself. This is a smear which is held against Palestinin nationalism, by their detractors, tha they are antisemites (something Goch, Atzmon and Rizzo are only happen to confirm).
The passing of
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379
UN claiming 'zionism' was racist I think a particularly shameful episode in international diplomacy.
I only refer to myself as 'anti-zionist' because many Jewish people, whom I know and repsect, also describe themselves as such. After all, who am I to tell anyone they can't be part of their own People and nation?

I read somewhere recently, that the Jews were the only cultural group to survive antiquity. Perhaps Jewish longevity and the wealth of its cultural accumulation and accommodation might still help with today's problems caused by western support for the most extreme racist fantacism and fundamentalism on the planet today.


Mary Rizzo claims of myself and TG -
.. repeat their same false statements that they are unable to support but by quoting one another!
- Mary, every one of the quotes in my last comment are from your own comments on azvas.

....Tony and Joe, whose main issue is always lumping people together and stating that their ideas are the same...
- Rizzo provides no proof, evidence or examples. A mere empty assertion of no merit.

...and then continuing to reiterate lies and false information, when it has been demonstrated that what they claim is false.
- Rizzo provides no proof, evidence or examples. A mere empty assertion of no merit.


Mary Rizzo says -
You may know that the core issue is and always has been the question of the legitimacy of allowing unlimited Jewish immigration into Palestine.
- Rizzo has always claimed that the priority is Palestinians as well. How dare Rizzo take the focus off Palestinians.
Rizzo being her usual consistent self,
ie inconsistent.


Mary, I hope you stand corrected on your claims that you always talk about colonialism and imperialism in relation to Palestinian nationalism. By your own admission, as I have shown by quoting you from comments you made here on azvas blog, if you were to do so you would be a Neo Nazi Zionist and also One who denies the Palestinian people..
Or perhaps, as now seems the case, you've changed your mind on that too without letting anyone know. Which is it?


Rizzo says about Deborah -
...it is clear that the rest of what you wrote would be appropriate in many settler sites, as a matter of fact.
- Really Mary, such as Deborah publicly renouncing her 'Right of Return' and also her support for justice and a viable Palestinian state?

Unlike Mary Rizzo, whose support of Palestinians includes smearing them with her antisemitism, which wouldn't look out of place on any pro-Israeli website dedicated to the attacking and destruction of Palestinians.

Indeed, Mary Rizzo ideas about Jewish people can be found on neo-nazi website.
In fact, if anybody wants to find out which 'Palestinian Mothers' claim that the millions of child victims of Hitler deserved what happened to them, then just visit the Israeli Government website. I'm sure they'll find what they're looking for there with regards to Palestinians and their antisemitism.

Of course, with racist vermin like Atzmon and Goch about it is easy to see why their victims like Deborah may want access to a refuge in times of trouble.

I think there should be some serious analysis of your position and of the matter that holding this position, Tony still insists that you are not a Zionist.....
.....Of course you are, but that is something I was aware of for a long time, Tony now has to wake up to the fact.

- Racist like Rizzo
have to be kept being reminded of what their own views are. Of course, Deborah is a zionist Mary, and so is TG. According to you and Atzmon they are both Jews which makes them ipso facto zionist.
Unless you disgree with this fundamental axiom of the philospher-clown Atzmon?

all the best azvas!

ps
Actually, I can't help thinking that these 2 supposedly ex-Jews, Rizzo and Atzmon, are actually operating in a tribal Jewish ethical way.
If we take Atzmon claims seriously about the Jews, then it seems to me that by infecting Palestinians, and their friends, with antisemitism, these 2 are actually helping the cause of Jewish tribal politics etc. I mean, we only have Atzmon's and Rizzo's word that they aren't Jewish anymore.
Given the way in which these 2 are operating, to undermine Palestinian solidarity rather than helping it, surely it behooves us non-Jews to question whether Atzmon and Rizzo are really huma just like the rest of us.

After all, it's a Jewish genetic, essentialist, fundamental thingy we're talking about here. It goes back generations.
Is it really so easy to de-judify oneself?
The only real evidence we have for ex-Jews successfully de-judifying themselves comes from, supposedly, ex-Jews.

Unless of course you are like me, and think Atzmon Goch and Rizzo are talking bollock - in which case, please feel free to ignore everything I've just said.

tony greenstein said...

Mary writes that:
'You may know that the core issue is and always has been the question of the legitimacy of allowing unlimited Jewish immigration into Palestine.'

Actually that isn't true. It was in the 1920s and 1930s when settlers were actively dispossessing the indigenous population but there isn't the same correlation today.

The major issue today is the privileges that are given to one section of society (Jews) and not to another section (Palestinians) which manifests itself in settlement in the West Bank but also many other things. Immigration per se isn't the cause of this.

As for Ms Rizzo's comparison of Debbie with the settlers, against whom she has always campaigned, then that is another example of silly abuse and a lack of argument. Someone who has picketted Israeli fairs and exhibitions is hardly a settler supporter!

As Dylan put it, Mary suffers from idiot winds.