Engage is a site set up by David Hirsh, John Strawson and other Zionists in order to fight the academic boycott of Israeli universities. Not surprisingly, one of their most avid supporters is Gilad Atzmon, who also opposes the academic boycott as 'book burning'.
Last weekend, Norman Finkelstein, the anti-Zionist Jewish academic and author, was arrested at Israel's Ben Gurion airport by the Shabak secret police, detained for 24 hours and then deported. No doubt Gilad Atzmon & his devoted groupie, Mary Rizzo, also support this, since being an anti-Zionist Jew, Finkelstein must also be a Zionist according to Mr Jazzmon!
The decision to deport Finkelstein is rapidly becoming yet another embarrassment for 'the only democracy in the Middle East'. Ha'aretz has printed a robust editorial criticising the decision to deport Finkelstein:
Who`s afraid of Finkelstein?
Haaretz May 27, 2008
[See also petition]
Haaretz May 27, 2008
[See also petition]
On Friday morning, the State of Israel refused to allow Prof. Norman Finkelstein, an American Jewish political scientist, to enter the country. Finkelstein was arrested at the airport and questioned by the Shin Bet security service for several hours. A day later, it became known that he had been banned from entering Israel for 10 years, for security reasons. Finkelstein managed to meet with a lawyer, who told him his chances of changing the decision were slim. When the Shin Bet decides that someone constitutes a security risk, the courts do not intervene.
According to the law, both in Israel and in other countries, no one has an intrinsic right to enter a country of which he is not a citizen. Immigration authorities have the power to keep a tourist from entering the country for reasons known only to themselves, and do not even need to provide an explanation. In Finkelstein`s case, the disturbing issue is neither the legality of keeping him out nor the authority to do so, but the reasonableness of the decision. Considering his unusual and extremely critical views, one cannot avoid the suspicion that refusing to allow him to enter Israel was a punishment rather than a precaution.
It is difficult to sympathize with Finkelstein`s opinions and preferences, especially since he decided to support Hezbollah, meet with its fighters and visit the graves of some of its slain operatives. But that does not mean he should be banned from entering Israel, since meetings with Hezbollah operatives do not in themselves constitute a security risk. True, the right to enter Israel is not guaranteed to noncitizens, but the right of Israeli citizens to hear unusual views is one that should be fought for. It is not for the government to decide which views should be heard here and which ones should not.
The decision to ban Finkelstein hurts us more than it hurts him. Every once in a while, the state suffers an attack of excessive sensitivity regarding its visitors. In 2002, it was Romanian flautist Gheorghe Zamfir who was kept out of the country by the Interior Ministry. The interior minister at the time, Eli Yishai, explained that Zamfir had expressed anti-Semitic views and that his entry into Israel would `hurt Holocaust survivors.` Avraham Poraz, who succeeded Yishai, overturned the decision.
When the person refused entry is Jewish, the absurdity is even greater. After all, Finkelstein could realize his right to immigrate to Israel as a Jew, in accordance with the Law of Return. Since he is Jewish and has no criminal past, it is doubtful whether he could be prevented from receiving Israeli citizenship.
The Shin Bet argues that Finkelstein constitutes a security risk. But it is more reasonable to assume that Finkelstein is persona non grata and that the Shin Bet, whose influence has increased to frightening proportions, latched onto his meetings with Hezbollah operatives in order to punish him.
And the decision is all the more surprising when one recalls the ease with which right-wing activists from the Meir Kahane camp - the kind whose activities pose a security threat that no longer requires further proof - are able to enter the country.
The Jerusalem Post reported that:
'American political scientist and fierce critic of Israel, Prof. Norman Finkelstein, was denied entry to Israel and deported from the country early Saturday morning. Officials said that the decision to deport Finkelstein was connected to his anti-Zionist opinions and fierce public criticism of Israel around the world.'
However none of this has deterred David Hirsh's ENGAGE from supporting the ban. It seems that for these hypocrites the only academic freedom that counts is the freedom of settler-colonial academics like Prof. Arnon Sofer of Haifa University who believes that the Arabs pose a 'demographic problem.'
mary in cyber-land
ReplyDelete- just like goch nobody, nothing of substance in her latest non-comment except a puff for a forth-coming expose which will go the way of all her other exposes.
It's either that or she actually produces intellectual arguments to defend her exploitation of Palestinian suffering in order to deppdle her antisemitism and neo-nazi propaganda.
As she so obvioulsy can't, then she has to stoop to showbiz razzmattazz gimmickery to fill up her vacuous empty antisemitic charade of an existence, such as -
Keep your eyes tuned to PTT, there is a report coming up that analyses your views on NIMN...
Can't wait...ZZZZzzzz....
rizzo defends goch,
whose uses criteria which defines Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO, the Arab League etc as supporters of zionism, if not actual zionists themselves.
rizzo defends goch,
who claims that opinion polls of occupied Palestinians aren't valid - but who claims that rizzo and atzmon's new facelift on their antismeitic gatekeeping activities is 'the authentic voice of Palestinians'
typhoid mary, please fell free to prove goch's revolutionary credentials.
I notice you complain that goch is being unfairly treated but haven't provided any relevant proof to support your allegations that he is who he says he is
(ie a revolutionary socialist of 40 years standing, he certainly isn't a poet but he could be a Bard).
A common phenomena with you and your friends I've noticed - you can't seem to prove anything much about what you assert.
you can't make it up, unless your mary in cyber-land or one of her piss-poor supporters
mary in cyber-land
ReplyDelete- just like goch nobody, nothing of substance in her latest non-comment except a puff for a forth-coming expose which will go the way of all her other exposes.
It's either that or she actually produces intellectual arguments to defend her exploitation of Palestinian suffering in order to deppdle her antisemitism and neo-nazi propaganda.
As she so obvioulsy can't, then she has to stoop to showbiz razzmattazz gimmickery to fill up her vacuous empty antisemitic charade of an existence, such as -
Keep your eyes tuned to PTT, there is a report coming up that analyses your views on NIMN...
Can't wait...ZZZZzzzz....
rizzo defends goch,
whose uses criteria which defines Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO, the Arab League etc as supporters of zionism, if not actual zionists themselves.
rizzo defends goch,
who claims that opinion polls of occupied Palestinians aren't valid - but who claims that rizzo and atzmon's new facelift on their antismeitic gatekeeping activities is 'the authentic voice of Palestinians'
typhoid mary, please fell free to prove goch's revolutionary credentials.
I notice you complain that goch is being unfairly treated but haven't provided any relevant proof to support your allegations that he is who he says he is
(ie a revolutionary socialist of 40 years standing, he certainly isn't a poet but he could be a Bard).
A common phenomena with you and your friends I've noticed - you can't seem to prove anything much about what you assert.
you can't make it up, unless your mary in cyber-land or one of her piss-poor supporters
This thread began when TG made an unfounded allegation against Gilad Atzmon and Mary Rizzo.
ReplyDeleteHe then censored posts on the grounds that they were abusive, but he continues to allow a tirade of abuse from his own supporters.
He did not even act when openly racist comments were posted.
He then censored a post because it added "nothing new", but does nothing about his supporters constantly repeating the same things over and over again, indeed he is guilty of constant repetition himself.
All these points are immediately verifiable if you have the energy to read back through the posts.
He deals with legitimate questions by ignoring them.
He keeps challenging my qualifications ( ie my right ) to argue against him and his methods. I asked him what 'qualifications' I am supposed to have, but he ignores me. By his own admission he knows nothing about me ( when anyone can work out muy politics by reading my blog ) and yet is ready to accuse me of anti-semitism, Holocaust denial and racism to name but a few of his most serious libels.
I assume that because so few people read his blog, he thinks he can get away with this, but he can be sure that the entire text of his behaviour is recorded and when I am ready it will be released to a much wider audience so that people can judge for themselves whether an unrepentant and vicious sectarian should be allowed anywhere near a broad solidarity movement. His version of history has already been laughed out of court by PSC and I have yet to come across anybody ( other than the 2 very sad individuals who inhabit his alternative universe ) who support any of his views.
I see Mary's got her knickers in a twist again!
ReplyDeleteI'm not in the least concerned over whether Arabs do or don't post on her blog. The ethnic qualifications of people are unimportant. What is important is what they say. The Arabs who post to the Rizzo/Atzmon blog are the usual nonentities one suspects.
By way of contrast some of us try to take the battle up outside of the confines of the feverish atmosphere of the web.
Hence why when Rizzo is working herself up to a frenzy I just happened to be speaking to 1,500 delegates to UNISON about why they should support Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanctions. And yes, I spoke as a Jewish anti-Zionist (according to Atzmon this therefore makes me a Zionist).
So really what Rizzo thinks is utterly irrelevant as her only achievements are to co-opt a few Arabs into thinking that the best response to Zionist racism is to reflect that racism.
I seem to remember that Hajo Mayer didn't recall what he'd signed or who had signed or indeed what it was about. And likewise the other signatories (excepting the died in the wool racists). But I can forgive Hajo his bad memory and poor judgement. What one can't forgive are the racists and anti-Semites - like Rizzo & Atzmon - and their idiot fellow travellers like Goch - who dress their views up in support for the Palestinians.
Fact is Rizzo you represent nothing except a small fan club that believes that your 'outstanding personality' will somehow rescue them from the consequences of Zionism.
Pathetic but who should be surprised? And I've deleted one of your holocaust denial fans above!
Tony G
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI can't be bothered with goch 0...so here are 2 example answers to his monotonous rubbish -
ReplyDeleteThis thread began when TG made an unfounded allegation against Gilad Atzmon and Mary Rizzo.
- goch,
this thread began with a comment by 'levi9909'
By his own admission he knows nothing about me..
- It was by your own admission we didn't know anything about you goch 0
And so on and so forth...
If goch can't be bothered to write his arguments out properly, using proper quotes, evidence and the like, why should anybody be bothered to read them?
If goch doesn't take himself seriously, why should anybody else?
...but he can be sure that the entire text of his behaviour is recorded and when I am ready it will be released...
- I'm sure it will be as stunning as the intellectual content of your arguments goch. I recommend either rizzo or atzmon help you publish it as they seem to be the only 2 who take you seriously. After all, you don't even do that.
http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2008/05/engage-hypocties-support-finkelsteins.html
ReplyDelete'Honestly, I appreciate this and will be more careful in the future. I'm no big fan of Atzmon and Shamir.'
As for the evidence of what Norman Finkelstein wrote. It's in my inbox!!
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
Mr. Greenstein, Where of here is evidence?
I may confirm it to Finkelstein.
When opinions of you and Finkelstein are different, which should I trust?
Do not you have a mind to defend Finkelstein's honor?
http://www.israelshamir.net/friends/Contributor15.htm
http://www.rense.com/general66/sem.htm
http://www.marwenmedia.com/articles_images/LWanti-semitism.html
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Articles/Story1444.html
”Anti-semitism” as a political weapon By Lasse Wilhelmson
Criticising Israel´s mistakes is acceptable.
But questioning whether Israel is a Jewish state with a racist apartheid system that renders non-Jews second rate citizens - that is not acceptable.
It makes little difference whether the criticism is based on facts.
Few people who cannot claim Jewish descent would dare to criticize publicly.
They are afraid of being accused of "anti-semitism".
There is much talk of disarming countries with nuclear weapons.
Not the US and its allies, but the so-called 'rogue states', especially Iran, which doesn´t yet have any weapons.
Israel is hardly ever mentioned as a nuclear power although it has been for a long time.
In spite of its advanced plans to bomb Iran, Israel is not seen as a threat to the surrounding world.
The media regularly criticizes severely various religions, especially Islam, but never Judaism.
Catholic pressure through lobbying, or the Pope´s speeches on political issues are discussed and criticized.
The fight in South Africa against the Boers involved a whole world.
Not because they were a "race" with undesirable characteristics,
but because they were the social group who in their own interests formed and administrated a racist apartheid system.
The same sort of criticism was aimed at the followers of Cecil Rhodes in Rhodesia.
All types of social, ethnic and religious groups defend their own special interests.
It is considered quite legitimate for their spokesmen to do their best to promote these interests; just as it is quite legitimate to criticize the same.
But the moment Jewish spokesmen and their organisations are criticised, the legitimacy vanishes into thin air.
The mention of "Jewish power" makes most people´s blood run cold,
but it is quite alright to discuss "gypsy power" or rather the lack of it.
"Jewishness" has become taboo. This applies particularly to the combination of "Jewish" and of "power" .
All kinds of power can be examined and discussed,
questioned or rejected - but not the Jewish kind which is generally presented as non-existent.
There is growing anxiety in the Palestinian movement in Sweden about using "Jewish" as a prefix to the settlements,
the state of Israel or the apartheid system, albeit the use is quite correct.
The settlements for example are "Jewish settlements" simply because only Jews are allowed to live there.
They are not Israeli because non-Jewish citizens are forbidden access to them.
Neither are they Zionist as many Zionists are not Jews.
It has now got to the stage where a leading spokesmen for the Palestinians in Sweden denies that Jews and Palestinians have disagreements,
despite the law giving Jews all over the world the right to return to Israel,
thus making them potential enemies of the Palestinians.
Having a Jewish mother gives the right to live in the country taken from the Palestinians.
One would be hard put to find a more fundamental disagreement.
The issue of blood-relationship renders it, moreover, racist.
A reluctance to discuss Judaism´s significance for Zionism in Israel of today makes it impossible to understand why Israel was not content with fifty per cent, later eighty per cent, of Palestine. Or why a social democratic prime minister ordered his soldiers to break the bones of children throwing stones? And how can one understand why Jews in Jerusalem throw their garbage onto the roads and back yards of their Palestinian neighbours, spit at them, or why masked Jewish settlers during the "cease fire" launched pogroms on unarmed Palestinian farmers, women and children?
Or why the Israeli "peace movement" and "left" do not question the Jewish apartheid system?
Just and lasting peace can never be achieved without its transformation.
Few people think that all this is a result of the Jews being an "evil race".
But if it cannot be explained by any other means, the few risk becoming too many.
A racially-based hate of Jews is helped along by the label of "anti-semitism" pasted on nearly all criticism of Israel,
not to mention criticism of Judaism.
Zionism, through its Jewish organisations, is the dominant interpretation of Judaism today.
This is a renaissance of national Judaism of the Middle Ages and the judicial system Halakha with its extreme animosity towards non-jews who were seen rather as subhuman.
This revival is seen as very beneficial by most Jewish organisations worldwide.
They demand of their members positive commitment to the state of Israel.
This is the context in which the behaviour mentioned above can be understood.
Most Jews in the diaspora are, however, "happily" unaware of this and are being used by their Zionist leaders and rabbis.
Politics and religion have merged in the state of Israel today.
A person speaking out for a secular democracy to replace the Jewish state, is accused of, in fact, wanting to "drive the Jews into the sea".
Most Jews today identify themselves not with Israel but with Israel as a Jewish state.
This creates a fundamental contradiction for many Jews: supporting the Jewish apartheid state while promoting democracy in the countries where they actually live.
Denying or whitewashing Israel´s politics, becomes a way of keeping one´s identity intact. Violent,
groundless attacks with "anti-semitism" as a weapon is the method used against any attempt to lay bare this contradiction.
A well known example is how Israel´s former ambassador to Sweden vandalised the art installation Snow White last year.
The risk of being labelled "anti-semitic" if you are not a Jew or of "self-hatred" if you are,
creates self-censorship among those who are critical of Israel´s policies or dislike the successful lobbying carried out by Jewish and Christian Zionists,
influencing US foreign policy.
The so- called Friends of Israel, most of them spokesmen for Jewish organisations,
have taken it upon themselves to be the foremost interpreters of the term "anti-semitism".
Few question this role as they run the risk of being tainted themselves if they do.
The term "anti-semitism" is taking on new nuances all the time.
Of late the slightest implication, as in "almost anti-semitic" or an "anti-semitic point of in terest" has been enough to invoke self-censorship.
The mention of these circumstances is often felt to be "dangerous" as it could lead to the growth of "anti-semitism".
All this in a western world where islamophobia is a considerably greater problem.
Jews are rightly proud of their success in almost all corners of society.
In art and science and, not least, the media and politics.
Israeli newspapers tell of the successful "likudification" of the Bush administration and delight in the fact that the Israeli minister for the diaspora is Bush´s new favourite author and pet in the White House.
Russian oligarchs with Israeli citizenship take breakfast there.
There is a culture of boasting about this among Jews. But should a critic of Israel point to these exact same circumstances,
he would immediately be accused of spreading "anti-semite theories of conspiracy" and thus be barred from any further discussion.
The Jews have for many years had total entrepreneurship of "God´s chosen People" with a "biblical right" to Palestine.
Zionism has been politically successful in reducing the Holocaust to Nazi war crimes against Jews.
By presenting themselves as the major (the only?) victims in the history of humanity they expect to claim special moral rights.
The method is used favourably to justify and cover up the genocide of the Palestinians.
"Anti-semitism" is being used to stop criticism of Israel´s way onwards to achieve the Zionist goal of a Jewish state in the whole of Palestine.
Before this goal can be realised, "peace" must be reached with the creation of a few Palestinian reservations on ten per cent of what was originally Palestine,
walled-in and gradually wasting away.
We are almost there now.
http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2008/05/engage-hypocties-support-finkelsteins.html
ReplyDelete'Honestly, I appreciate this and will be more careful in the future. I'm no big fan of Atzmon and Shamir.'
As for the evidence of what Norman Finkelstein wrote. It's in my inbox!!
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/Greenstein-Atzmon.html
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/atzmongreensteindebate.html
Mr. Greenstein, You please clarify the exchanges of the email of you and Finkelstein in this way.
I cannot do fair judgment unless I compare an email of Finkelstein with an email of you.
I intend to demand information disclosure from Finkelstein, But, as for me, you and Finkelstein hope that it is shown all information voluntarily.
By e mail TG tells me he is not interested in finding out about my 'background' because there is nothing to find out. He's happy to consider me a 'nobody'. That deprives me of my right to comment on his 'greatness'. I don't think so. I prefer to think of myself as an ordinary citizen with just as much right as anybody else to pull down the trousers of the 'great and good'. If TG is really not that interested in the matter then why does he go on and on about it? Joe Kane produces his usual sublime mixture of pedantry and illiterate nonsense. He knows full well that this argument started with a false assertion by TG about Atzmon and Rizzo, but he can't resists the temptation to show how clever he is. As for his second point, is there anybody who can translate this into something which actually makes sense? As usual, there are no answers to any of the questions I have raised. This is heading for the Guiness Book of Records as the longest pause before someone gave a straight answer to a straight question!
ReplyDeletePoor Goch. He has been upset ever since I wrote:
ReplyDelete'No doubt Gilad Atzmon & his devoted groupie, Mary Rizzo, also support this, since being an anti-Zionist Jew, Finkelstein must also be a Zionist according to Mr Jazzmon!'
Despite claiming to have been a teacher, Goch gives no sign of following any logical argument or indeed of anything more than the intelligence of a 10 year old.
So let's explain again for the benefit of his thickness:
According to Atzmon, being Jewish and being Zionist is one and the same thing and if you speak out as a Jew that merely reinforces the fact that you are a Zionist. In other words he accepts the Zionist argument that being Jewish and being Zionist are synonymous.
I have repeatedly referred Goch to Atzmon's 'Not in my name' article where he makes this explicit but Goch refuses to comment upon it, probably because he doesn't understand the argument of Atzmon.
But, and here it gets difficult for the poor lad, I say that IF this is indeed Atzmon's & Rizzo's position, that Finkelstein is a Zionist by virtue of being Jewish, then they can't object to him being barred from Israel.
So it is not an allegation but an intellectual argument that Goch is simply not up to understanding. It is a conditional argument. Of course in the real world, neither Rizzo nor Atzmon dare say openly that they support Finkelstein's banning. On the contrary they wish some of his lustre to fall on their own undistinguished selves.
And in correspondence with me, Norman Finkelstein has made it plain that he doesn't have much time or respect for the Rizzo/Atzmon/Shamir axis.
Of course one of the anonymous cowards that inhabit the Rizzo universe is asking for details of the whole correspondence. Sorry mate, it's private. I don't need to prove anything because I have all the evidence and proving it to anonymous nutters is not my way of proceeding.
And as for Goch. The fact that you are a nobody doesn't stop you commenting on me, it just means that you don't have anything useful to say. Clearly in your 30 years as a 'revolutionary' you have written nothing, impacted upon nothing and left no trace of any activity. So really what does it matter that you have hitched your wagon to the Rizzo smear site?
Tony G
Is this what passes for "intellectual argument" in your sad little world? Re-read John Hilley's clinical demolition job of every one of your libellous allegations if you want to see how an intellectual deals this rubbish. Try and cast your mind back to the PSC Conference and the vote on your poisonous resolution if you need to remind yourself of the impact of your many accumulated years of wisdom. What was it? Only 95% of the conference voted against you! Time to take a reality pill and give one to Joe Kane and his anonymous doggie companion while you're at it!
ReplyDeleteSituation normal in goch-land as he continues with his endless stream of illiterate rubbish.
ReplyDeletegoch's question has been answered umpteen times - what is he on about?
Joe Kane produces his usual sublime mixture of pedantry and illiterate nonsense. He knows full well that this argument started with a false assertion by TG about Atzmon and Rizzo, but he can't resists the temptation to show how clever he is.
- goch niobody,
says one thing and then when it is proven he is talking rubbish claims he meant something else instead, a tactic called 'bait and switch'.
The fact goch can't be taken at his word because of his tactic of saying one thing, and when that is answered perfectly reasonably, claims he meant something else - means that requests for him to state his case exactly, his arguments and give his evidence and proofs, is quite reasonable.
This reasonable request to goch has been put on numerous occasions (this being yet another one) and still goch moans and complains that he is being mis-understood and traduced etc etc etc
...but he can't resists the temptation to show how clever he is.
- Sure goch.
Simple requests for your to state your case clearly are taken, by you, as evidence of somebody trying to be a smart-arse. Even when your question has been answered, or I presume the question you want answered.
The question of yours, I have in mind goch0, has already been answered umpteen times and indeed, you don't need to be clever to work out the answer, if you believe what atzmon writes is true about all Jews being zionists.
Although, I see yet again goch0 refuses the simplest of requests to state clearly what is he is about - the question has already been ansqwered, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the answer, hence my own confusion as to what goch0 is actually about.
How unreasonable of me to ask you to talk reasonably and clearly. In fact asking you to do this is considered by you to be...
...his usual sublime mixture of pedantry and illiterate nonsense...
Now goch nobody is asserting that he is unable to spell out what his case is because people are clever.
1 - goch0 says one thing, and when it has been answered, claims he meant something else
2 - goch0 refuses to restate his original question when asked to do, so in order to avoid confusion
3 - goch0 claims his question hasn't been answered, when it has, but refuses to acknowledge it has been answered and refuses to restate his original question which he claims hasn't been answered
4 - goch0 now claims he is being prevented from stating his case properly because others are clever
An endless stream of pathetic moronic rubbish, just like rizzo's comments.
I suppose this is what comes of me taking occupied Palestinian opinion seriously - unlike goch0, who takes the word of non-Palestinian know-nothing antisemitic gatekeepering nobodies more seriously than he does the likes of the Arab League, Hamas and Hezbollah who are all zionists accoring to his own criteria.
Remember to put this all in your forthcoming dossier goch0 - of course, a simple link to a comment thread usually suffices for most people's purposes.
all the best azvas!
ps
I am putting together a dossier on goch0, and will publish it when the time is ripe - at the moment there is nothing in it, so it may take quite some time before it sees the light of day, if ever
Is this what passes for "intellectual argument" in your sad little world
ReplyDelete- goch0 does is famous 'bait and switch' routine.
Leaving aside his ritual abuse,
you think goch0 might be going to answer intelligently with cogent reasoned arguments - instead, he doesn't disappoint, as he 'switiches' to mentioning the arguments of others and to a vote at a conference.
As for goch0 and his own intellectual arguments and evidence, as usual, not a sausage.
This is what passes for serious intellectual argument amongst the antisemtic worshippers of the cult of rizzo-atzmon - who call Palestinians 'book-burners' and reckon occupied Palestinians are zionists and their opinions not worthy of any notice.
Calm down Joe! Your sentences are running away with you and make even less sense than usual. I referred you all to John Hilley's blog ( which you know well because he has dismantled you on it ) because all your libels are dealt with comprehensively on it. I don't care to repeat what he has said, because I couldn't better what he has done. You don't like to be reminded that when TG stuck his head above the parapet at the PSC conference he got it shot off. So much for his influence on the movement! At one point I though that you might be TG masquerading under a different identity, but now I know that not even he could be sochildish and unintelligible. What's happened to the anonymous 'Master' McGrath? Hasn't TG thrown him a bone lately? Finally, can you specify in detail anything that I have written that can justify your wild claims that I am both anti-semitic and a Zionist, or that I think Palestinians are Zionists, or that I am a Holocaust denier or that I have links with the KKK and David Duke, or that I am in any way a racist, or that you are more than 8 years old.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that Goch has now admitted that he is incapable of writing or analysing anything and simply refers us to another nomark - one John Hilley, who also has never done anything in the Palestine solidarity movement.
ReplyDeleteSo now Goch admits it - he is just a footstool for Rizzo & co. and when posed with (for him) particularly difficult questions refers to someone else's blog, which none of us are interested in because there isn't enough time in the day to read these things and do something effective in terms of Palestine solidarity.
Poor old Goch. The way he has been used is shameful!
Tony
At last, goch finally refuses to acknowledge his question has been answered.
ReplyDeleteYou don't like to be reminded that when TG stuck his head above the parapet at the PSC conference he got it shot off.
- goch with his never-ending morbid references and pre-occupation with finalities, such as the death of others; or others being made to pay; or others who are and will be held to to account - now his victims are being envisioned as being shot in the head!
Quite the peace activist, goch is. Reminds me of 'knuckles' another one of the rizzo-atzmon peace and justice charmers.
So now goch's case, just like his revolutionary cv, exists somewhere else but not in the space where he currently is, and where those he claims to be answering also currently occupy ie this comments thread
Finally, can you specify in detail anything that I have written that can justify your wild claims...
- Nothing left for an intellectual nobody like goch to do except copy others. This sounds a lot like my requests to you goch over the past few weeks. Imitation is flattery and acknowledgement of a sort.
However, I notice goch can't defend either atzmon or rizzo so instead goch opts for a traditional goch tactic of diversion.
Instead, goch claim others are not taking his claims seriously that he doesn't support antisemites, although I think people do take goch's claims that he supports the work of antisemites dissimenting neo-nazi propaganda, seriously.
goch, if you don't support antisemites disseminating neo-nazi propaganda - then tell us all where rizzo and atzmon are going wrong?
If you don't support these two antisemities then what are you doing on azvas blog - what is it you think you hve been doing all these weeks and months on this blog?
Nobody invited you to defend antisemitism, neo-nazi propaganda and the like - and if you aren't doing that then what are you doing on azvas blog?
Please feel free to agree with anything I have said about these two rizzo-atzmon - much the same way as you have just copied my style of formal requests for you to stop your vagueness (adopted as some kind of tactic by you, such is your faith in your own case).
There is plenty of material on this particular blog (rather than one elsewhere) for you to work with goch.
Remember - no vagueness and no diversionary tactics allowed.
It is interseting to compare what you say on your e mails with what you put out in your posts on this site. You say in your e mail that you don't know of John Hilley, but your posts show that you think you know him well enough to dismiss him in your usual style.
ReplyDelete"I see, so you are incapable of replying and you are referring me to the remarks of one Hillier, who I know nothing about. Clearly you are just a footstool in this. Which is what I suspected all along
tony g"
Caught out in another little porky pie? Just to be helpful, I refer you to http://johnhilley.blogspot.com/2008/05/solidarity-as-love.html, although I can't believe you haven't already seen this. Certainly BabyJoe(90 months ) has and got his bottom smacked for his pains. As I said John does such a good job of demolishing you that I can't see anyone bettering it. You also asked me to restate my questions, so I did, but you of course can't handle that. It must be very galling conducting a conversation with a 'footstool', so I expect you to shut up soon before someone sections you.
Just in case you forgot, here are the questions again. What a naughty footstool I am and so persistent
1. When are going to correct your blog re. Gilad, Rizzo and Finkelstein?
2. When are you going to apologise to them?
3. When are you going to disassociate from Joe Kane's racist remarks re. Rizzo?
4. When are you going to put an end to McGrath's ( anonymous ) and Kane's continuous childish abuse?
Sleep well and take a god look in the miror in themorning.
I don't need to take a look in the mirror, being perfectly content with how I am!
ReplyDeleteIt's not my fault that you are a dumb footstool who can only refer people to someone else, given your inability to write a single meaningful article or indeed paragraph.
Yes I recall Hilly now. Almost as insightful and meaningful as you!!
To answer you, yet again:
i. Never - I seen no need to
'correct' the blog.
ii. Never - nothing to apologise for.
iii. Joe isn't a racist unlike the people you consort with.
iv. I'm not removing Joe or McGrath because I can see no reason to. You shouldn't push yur luck.
Satisfied?
You might find Hilley impressive but some of us are not so easily satisfied. Unfortunately being incapable of penning anything else you have to do a little hero worship. Pity at your age, no matter it takes all sorts.
tony greenstein
Boiler-plate goch in ultimatum mode.
ReplyDelete1. When are going to correct your blog re. Gilad, Rizzo and Finkelstein?
- goch obvioulsy doesn't understand what his master atzmon is saying, is the only reasonable explanation for his inability to grasp atzmon's simple racist equation that all Jewish people are zionists.
Which is why I asked goch what he thinks he's been doing all these weeks and months defending atzmon-rizzo, when goch doesn't even know what it is he's complaining about or defending.
2. When are you going to apologise to them?
- goch demands that people apologise to other people, because he demands they should.
3. When are you going to disassociate from Joe Kane's racist remarks re. Rizzo?
- Sure goch,
where is the evidence I'm a racist - or is that too childish for you to work out how it's done?
Funny, isn't it goch. You calling me a racist. Shows how seriously you actually take racism.
4. When are you going to put an end to McGrath's ( anonymous ) and Kane's continuous childish abuse?
- Only just lately goch was complaining that master macgrath wasn't abusing him becuase he wasn't about.
Of course, having pointed out goch's usual style of internet garbage, I'll be accused of being childish.
Unlike goch of course, who can't reason, can't argue his case, and can't supply his revolutionary cv either.
Instead, goch decides to give his commentary on someone else's blog comments. That's a relief. I thought goch was going to state his own arguments and evidence all by himself for a change.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteOne second TG doesn't know Hillyer, the next second he does. His nose grows longer by the second. He sees no reason to correct his blog. Being totally wrong is not enough to merit a correction or an apology. Kane's racist comments about Mary Rizzo are to go unpunished. So much for TG's socialism and internationalism! McGrath and Kanes childish abuse is to continue. Excellent - your answers expose you completely. As for Joe(90months), he is more incoherent by the second. Someone should change his nappy for him before he explodes!
ReplyDeletegoch on his usual sadism and discipline streak I see.
ReplyDeleteKane's racist comments about Mary Rizzo are to go unpunished.
- More than that goch0,
they go unproven as well, as usual.
It shouldn't be too difficult to prove I'm racist goch nobody. Isn't it ironic goch nobody, you accusing others of the very crime you are guilty of yourself, of falsely accusing people of being racist. What a hypocrite nobody..
goch0's argument in defence of antisemites, such as rizzo and atzmon, is to use other people's arguments, on other blogs, in order to argue that he doesn't need to argue.
goch0 revolutionary cv doesn't exist either, just like his supposed arguments, it exists in another dimension as well.
goch0 has quite a morbid fixation with ultimatums; people being held accountable; people paying for their actions; people being subjected to punishment; his references to death; and his using metaphors about people getting their heads shot off - hardly any of this sinister language fits in with a solidarity movement devoted to peace and justice.
People getting their heads shot off is quite inappropriate I would have thought given what the occupied Palestinians have to put up with.
As goch0's narcissim continues,
how more divorced from reality he becomes - not a word about zionism or the Palestinians - just more vagueness, more abusiveness and more references to humiliating others by forcing them to apolgise for their imaginary crimes, their being punished, their being made to suffer their metaphorical heads getting shot off.
In other words - a typical atzmon-rizz supporter, a intellectual non-entity.
Jeez, you are a boring tosser Goch. Don't you have anything useful to say, no insights, no analysis?
ReplyDeleteYes I don't know Hillyer. I responded once on his blog and wrote to him and he didn't reply. Apart from that I don't know him from any other Atzmonite clone.
I don't see anything to apologise for. I don't see the need to apologise for being wrong unless I made a false assertion about someone else. Which I didn't, or are you saying you're not a boring fucker? Do tell!!!
Goch has the cheek to witter on about 'internationalism' when he hangs round with and supports racist. Strange kind of internationalist.
Meanwhile Goch who wants me to apologise for saying what I think of his master and mistress, Atzmon and Rizzo, still can't tell us what he thinks of Atzmon's 'Not in my name'. Is it that difficult to read an essay and comment on what it says? Do you have cerebral problems that necessitate you having to repeat the same thing ad-nauseum without ever referring to what you are supposed to be replying to?
Tony G
Can you sink any lower? On this evidence you certainly can. I know it's early on Saturday morning and you've probably had too much lemonade, but have you no shame at all? Every time you expose another piece of your deceit you respond by more violent and excessive language. You repeat the same meaningless twaddle over and over again and you have the nerve to accuse me of being repetitive. You would really love me to write you and essay but you overestimate your own importance and for that matter your intelligence. I am the one asking questions here and you just can't handle that. You are losing what little control you had and anybody who reads your posts must be wondering how long it will be before you end up in a padded cell.
ReplyDeleteGoch has taken to spamming me as well. His latest epistle informs me that:
ReplyDelete'I am mortified. I am going to blow my brains out on the spot.
REJ' which was in response to my message that 'clearly you have nothing to say which is of the slightest interest or relevance. You are henceforth blocked from this address oh sad git.'
I am though puzzled. How the hell is Goch going to find where his brain, if it still exists, is languishing? I fear it is a forlorn task and suspect he is going to need the help of someone with an electron microscope. Joe, can you help?
Tony
Why is TG spending so much time putting down someone he feels is so far beneath him? He omits to mention that it was he who started spamming me in the first place and I am just replying to his posts. I know that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit and that is why I chose it to reply to him, but it is still too difficult for him to work out. Look, there's steam coming out of his ears!
ReplyDeleteGoch writes that 'You would really love me to write you and essay but you overestimate your own importance and for that matter your intelligence.'
ReplyDeleteMy dear Goch. I can never overestimate my own intelligence just as can never underestimate yours. It's not that I would love you to write an essay on Zionism (in fact I wouldn't) but I'd be flabbergasted, amazed, struck down if you managed to produce anything half comprehensible or intelligent. Fortunately my heart isn't likely to be subject to any shocks on that account.
I am the one asking questions here and you just can't handle that
ReplyDelete- goch nobody asserting his moral authority - except I thought goch0 was demanding people be punished and be forced to apologise and the like.
Now goch0 is really into his little internet fascist fantasy and he is the one giving the orders round here!
Why is TG spending so much time putting down someone he feels is so far beneath him?
- This is what happens when you ask supporters of rizzo-atzmon to defend their antisemitism, they get paranoid and personal.
And this is what happens when you ask goch0 to defend his support for atzmon and rizzo - he can't do it.
Every time you expose another piece of your deceit you respond by more violent and excessive language.
- Deceit such as?
I know it's asking a lot, but could you try and proving your assertions goch0.
Sorry if that sounds repetitive, and sorry its me thats asking the questions rather than your narcissistic empty fascist ego.
You repeat the same meaningless twaddle over and over again and you have the nerve to accuse me of being repetitive.
- goch0 accusing others of his own crimes.
Requesting someone that they write out their own reasoned arguments and evidence all by themselves, goch0, isn't really a crime, more a standard to be adhered to.
Of course, goch0 doesn't write out a reasoned case using evidence and argument - what he does is, he starts to defend somebody's comments on another blog altogether.
Then goch0 the internet fascist, turns up on this blog, apoplectic with spleen, insisting that he's the boss and he's the one who asks the questions - don't dare ask him for an answer, who do you think you are asking goch nobody for a reasoned response!
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=640441812647446166&postID=3160475608360933709&isPopup=true
ReplyDeleteTony Greenstein said...
Anyone who cites Kahanist sites to attack anti-Zionists has their comments deleted Mr Anonymous.
http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2008/06/zionist-collaboration-in-hungary-mike.html
It is little wonder that in their attacks on Vrba, for not following the Zionist line on the Holocaust,
that the Zionist historians – Bauer, Porat, Kulka et al.
have simply provided ammunition for the Holocaust Deniers who use their attacks as a way of casting doubt on the Auschwitz Protocols.
Therein lies their real crime.
http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2008/05/engage-hypocties-support-finkelsteins.html
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=640441812647446166&postID=8297650883031257251&page=1&isPopup=true
'Honestly, I appreciate this and will be more careful in the future. I'm no big fan of Atzmon and Shamir.'
As for the evidence of what Norman Finkelstein wrote. It's in my inbox!!
Auschwitz was both a labour and extermination camp, unlike Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec, so yes people survived.
Mr. Greenstein, Please prove these, and you wrote these.
Though you wrote the thing which cannot prove it, do not you withdraw it?
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/Greenstein-Atzmon.html
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/atzmongreensteindebate.html
Dear Mr Atzmon,
I note that in the tirade below,
you accuse Jews Against Zionism and myself of being 'undercover Zionist agents of influence'.
No proof is provided for this calumny nor can any ever be provided.
Please therefore withdraw this accusation.
T: No proof is provided for this calumny nor can any ever be provided. Please therefore withdraw this accusation.
T: However every dog should be given one bite and I am therefore offering you a chance to retract the nonsense below as well as to dissociate yourself from Shamir and all his works.
Mr. Greenstein, You should prove you before pressing another person for withdrawal.
T: There is nothing incompatible with being a Marxist and being open about being Jewish.
When I have to confront fascists or Zionists I am quite open about being a Jewish Marxist.
Clearly, when being Jewish has a political connotation today, i.e. for most Jews it means a Zionist identity to a greater or lesser extent,
then it is incumbent upon those who are anti-Zionist Jews to stand up and declare such.
As for it being ‘racial’ I reject the idea that Jews are a race.
Only Shamir and his Zionist co-thinkers agree on this.
I am in favour of Jews being equal with others, unfortunately Zionism and anti-Semitism doesn’t allow this.
""When I have to confront fascists or Zionists I am quite open about being a Jewish Marxist.""
Mr. Greenstein, I was able to understand that you were Communist Party alliance autocracy supporter.
I await your writ for libel with interest!
Mr. Greenstein, Do you have consistency?
Atzmon proves the exchanges of the email, but you do not prove it.
So you don't support atzmon then, when he says all Jews are zionists?
ReplyDeletealso sprach Joe Kane.....
funny though... he never said that! ahaha seems as though you have some homework to do Joe, to demonstrate this claim of yours.
The tag team - 2 know-nothings of goch and rizzo.
ReplyDeleteGo on typhoid mary,
state something positive for a change, as goch can't and neither can you it seems - what did atzmon say, what's the party line on the subject of 'Jews'?
I only ask you this, because this is about the only subject you might know anything about. It's not really a proper subject though, more a psuedo-subject.
A bag of hot air called rizzoo talking about another bag of hot air called atzmon.
ps
feel free to correct the following article -
The Zionism of Gilad Atzmon, Mary Rizzo & Israel Shamir
AZVAS
5 April 2008
In fact there is a whole blog stuffed with articles about you and atzmon's antisemitism - it would be good to get some constructive feedback, instead of piss-poor goch nobodies imagining they are fascist interogators and living out their little internet fantasy worlds of holding evil chairman greenstein to account, compiling a dossier on his activities, demanding he order his followers to apologise etc etc - quite entertaing though, observing ing this atzmonite half-wit sink further and further into his own little internet dream world
I had a quick shuftie at the 'Tank Thinkery' and, as usual, barricaded behind Arab and Palestinian human sandbags, atzmon is gazing at his navel with 2 articles about the Jews - no doubt telling us all how terrible they are and how intellectual and brilliant he is.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, back in the ego-less real world known as solidarity -
'UK's largest union passes boycott resolution - Trade Unions and Boycott'
UNISON Conference 2008 reafirms call to boycott
BIG
25 Jun 2008
http://bigcampaign.org/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=181&cntnt01origid=15&cntnt01dateformat=%25d%20%25b%20%25Y&cntnt01returnid=72
all the best azvas!
Read Roy Ratcliffe on Palestine Think Tank and weep! TG and Rance stripped bare.
ReplyDeleteI doubt that the recommendations of an ignoramus like Richard Jones/Goch is anything to write home about. No doubt reading anything more intelligent than he could write does make him weep. However Goch is easily impressed, which is not surprising given that he is such a boring and thick f*****.
ReplyDeleteHowever we all know that Goch hasn't written a single word of interest about Palestine/Zionism, has never done anything on Palestine and has signally failed to respond to my simple queries about Atzmon's 'Not in my name' article which demonstrates he is also a thick Zionist.
I shall therefore pass up the opportunity to read something that makes Goch weep. No doubt it is very moving, even if it does appear on the Palestine 'think' thank. A recommendation from Goch is something no budding author should have to put up with, even the ill-fated Ratters.
As usual you substitute coarse insults in response to any challenges and you can't face up to even reading something which demolishes every strand of your 'thinking'. Every new post from you exposes you as the charlatan you are and don't think for one minute that no-one else is going to read this strand. I'll make sure of that.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that when you click on View My Profile to found out all about TG, there's absolutely nothing there?
ReplyDeleteI see Goch is being his usual pathetic self. If he wants to see my profile he can go to e.g. the Guardian's Comment is Free site where they require it from a contributor. There are a number of other places you can go, but being a modest fellow I don't want to trumpet myself elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteOf course the situation is reversed for Goch Jones because noone wants to know him so the only place where his profile is likely to be found is on his own site, since noone else has even heard of Goch. In other words a bit of self-puffery.
And true to form, Goch has nothing of substance to say. Nothing about the 'death to the Arabs' march in Jerusalem or the attack on an award winning journalist, Mohammed Omr, from Gaza last week or the demolition of 'unrecognised' Arab villages in Gaza. Just like over the Atzmon he has attempted to defend he has nothing to say. A nobody with nothing to say, how strange!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI wonder why when I refer you to Roy Ratcliffe's excellent article, you censor my post. I look forward to reading part 2, but I wish I could see your face when it comes out!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteBrave Mr. Anonymous, give me your name and I will give you my opinion!
ReplyDeleteThe only comments I have deleted were Anonymous's holocaust denial posts, or should I say Atzmon's HD posts.
ReplyDeleteI don't know nor care who Ratcliffe is and I have more to do than bother poring over the entrails of another Atzmon groupie.
I'm sure Goch is wetting his pants in anticipation of a 2nd instalment however some of us require a greater intellectual stimulation than anything that the Atzmon/Rizzo circus can offer!
No doubt in another 30 years of being a revolutionary Goch might be able to answer my simple question re 'Not in my name'!!
Tony Greenstein
TG can't be bothered to read Ratcliffe and yet he expects everyone else to plough through his own endless and abusive tracts. As for Anonymous he asks me if I support TG just because I refuse to answer his questions while he hides behind the veil of anonimity, which goes to show he hasn't followed what's been going on at all.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous - you have nothing to say on any subject because you do not exist! I am not interested in arguing with a faceless one.
ReplyDeleteI have deleted all the last few comments of Anonymous as he is clearly a holocaust denial merchant. As well as a complete fool
ReplyDeleteMr. Greenstein and REJ GOCH, What kind of labour did Anne Frank do in Auschwitz?
ReplyDeleteMr. Greenstein, Why do not you rename the family name to ""Greenstone""?
How do you continue watching brains of Atzmon and Eisen?
I did not think that you followed religious precepts of the Sabbath.
Roy Ratcliffe Part 2 is now out - a clinical dissection which you would do well to read before you open your mouths again.
ReplyDeleteAlfred Kazin’s reproach in the Chicago Tribune is fitting when he claims that Elie Wiesel,
ReplyDeletePrimo Levi, and Jerzy Kosinski “tried making a fortune off the Holocaust and inventing atrocities.”
Chicago Tribune, Dec. 31, 1995, reviews, pp. 1f.
L: Elie Wiesel and Primo Levi have also been exposed as fabricators?
R: They have been accused of being dishonest.
Now to Primo Levi, who after Elie Wiesel is the next most famous Auschwitz survivor.
In his book he writes that only after the war he had learned there were gassings at Auschwitz,1118 and therefore only alludes to them in his texts.
After 1976, however, in an appendix the gas chambers appear so often and in such a style that it deceitfully suggests Levi had first hand experience of them.
The suspicion arises that on account of the rising popularity of the Holocaust industry in the 1970s Levi’s work was augmented in order to satisfy the increasing demand for gas chamber horror stories.
Cf. R. Faurisson, op. cit. (note 1107) as well as Pierre Marais,
En lisant de pr̬s les ̬crivains chantres de la Shoah РPrimo Levi, Georges Wellers, Jean-Claude Pressac La Vielle Taupe, Paris 1991.
What this appendix in Levi’s book about the homicidal gas chambers is worth is made clear by the left-wing French daily newspaper Libération soon after Levi’s suicide on April 11, 1987.
The paper reported that Levi owed it to his being a Jew that he was not shot when at the end of 1943 he was arrested as a partisan:
“While active as a partisan, the Fascists had taken him prisoner – he still had a pistol on his body – and he identified himself as a Jew so as not to be shot on the spot.
And he was handed over to the Germans as a Jew.
The Germans sent him to Auschwitz […].”
Ferdinand Camon, “Chimie/Levi, la mort,” Libération, April 13, 1987, p. 29.
L: According to this partisans were shot on the spot?
R: Not necessarily, but the execution of partisans, that is, illegal combatants is and was generally accepted martial law.
817 But Levi obviously hoped that he would receive a favorable special treatment if he revealed to his captors that he was a Jew, and he was obviously correct, because he survived the war.
Primo Levi is a part of the Holocaust Industry though it is very regrettable.
Atzmon Eisen Rizzo Shamir and Wilhelmson are going to never come into contact with Chossudovsky Petras and Neturei Karta.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.globalresearch.ca/
http://petras.lahaine.org/index.php
http://www.nkusa.org/
http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Palestine/support.cfm
http://www.nkusa.org/books/pamphlets/pamphlet3.cfm
http://www.nkusa.org/aboutus/palestine/index.cfm