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Monday, 15 April 2013

Chavka Fulman-Raban – Calls for Rebellion Against Israeli Occupation


A typical Polish shtetl (small town) that the Nazis wiped out in their entirety

Chavka delivering her speech

Chavka Fulman-Raban - the last of the Warsaw Ghetto survivors

When the last Commander of the Jewish Fighting Organisation (ZOB), Marek Edelman ‘wrote a letter in support of those whom he called "commanders of the Palestinian military, paramilitary and partisan operations - to all the soldiers of the Palestinian fighting organizations." He was disowned by the whole of the Israeli political establishment, which has never hesitated to use the holocaust to defend the Zionist state.

Below is a statement from Chavka Fulman-Raban, one of the last Ghetto fighters (though strictly speaking she was arrested as a courier for the resistance and was in Auschwitz at the time).  Below is the article that Chavka gave on Yom HaShoah, the day commemorating the holocaust of European Jewry.

by Richard Silverstein on April 9, 2013 ·
Crosspost from Tikun Olam

On Yom Ha-Shoah, one of the few remaining living survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto, Chavka Fulman-Raban, delivered a fierce denunciation of evil and injustice, including the Israeli Occupation.  Her speech was offered to guests at the ceremony of Beit Lohamey Ha-Getaot (the Ghetto-Fighters House).

I’ve translated it based on the speech  she uploaded to Facebook:
Chavka’s family: her mother survived the war. Marek and Vuk died as resistance fighters.
There is a unity in this commemoration–70 years since the [Warsaw Ghetto] Rebellion.  We’re also nearing the end of the Shoah generation and the last of the [ghetto] fighters.  Most of you in front of me, you are the generations of continuity: the second, third and fourth generations.  I have mixed emotions and thoughts about the past, present, and future.

I will tell you about one experience from that time.  Spring 1942.  I was a courier for an underground operation.  I arrived to visit my friend from the youth movement, Dror Bachrubishov, in occupied eastern Poland very close to the Nazis.

Chavka
I stood in the small railroad station and from the window I could make out, on a field next to the railroad tracks, a great multitude, thousands of men, women, and children.  Overseeing them were Germans running wild on horseback.  A few meters from me, through the window, I saw four boys digging a hole.  The soldiers shot them and they fell into it.  The next morning the field was empty.  At night, the trains had gone on their way: to the camps, to death.

Chavka’s family: her mother survived the war. Marek and Vuk died as resistance fighters.

These were the moments at which I understood and which I feared: this is the beginning of the end.  This is the Shoah.  With this terrible truth, I returned to the Warsaw ghetto, to my family which remained there, to my comrades.

The [Warsaw Ghetto] rebellion became for us [at that moment] necessary and clear.  We continued educational activities and seminars, the underground school and newspapers.  It was important to strengthen the sad, dying ghetto youth.

But at this point, it became most important to find weapons sources.  The deportation of 300,000 Warsaw Jews to Treblinka in the summer of 1942 strengthened us and determined for us that the last battle–the armed rebellion–neared.  That it must break out.

On April 19 1943, seventy years ago, the first rebellion in occupied Europe broke out–the Jewish rebellion.  I wasn’t part of it.  As a courier, I had been arrested during resistance operations in Kharkov and had been brought to Auschwitz a number of months earlier.

All of my nearest, most beloved comrades fought from the rooftops, in the fires, from the bunkers.  Most of them perished.  I hurts me that I can no longer remember all their names.  We memorialize only a few.  But in my heart I am not parted from them, from the forgotten.

Leave in your hearts and memories a place for them, younger generations.  For the beautiful and bold, so young, who fell in the last battle.  I wish for the thousands of you before me, lives enriched with love, beauty, laughter, and meaning.

Continue the rebellion.  A different rebellion of the here and now against evil, even the evil befalling our own and only beloved country.  Rebel against racism and violence and hatred of those who are different.  Against inequality, economic gaps, poverty, greed and corruption.

Strengthen humanistic education and values of ethics and justice.  These too are [a form of] rebellion against alcoholism among our youth and the terrible phenomenon of attacks against the elderly.

Rebel against the Occupation. No–it is forbidden for us to rule over another people, to oppress another [people].  The most important thing is to achieve peace and an end to the cycle of blood[letting].  My generation dreamed of peace.  I so want to achieve it.  You have the power to help.  All my hopes are with you.  If only [you could].
I am so proud to share a religion and ethnic identity with this woman.  She represents the best of all that is Jewish.  She represents the best of all that is Israeli.

Please consider a donation to support the ground-breaking research, translation and peace-making efforts of Tikun Olam.

26 comments:

Erez said...

Usually I don't read your Blog anymore, but when You mention a personal friend, I think it's apropriate to respond.

First, You should learn to spell her name correctly: Chavka Folman Raban.

since ZOB was built politically, You should also have mentioned her membership in Socialist-Zionist "dror".

If You count Chavka (and You should) there is nothing wrong in mentioning all the rest (very few are still alive)

while being the last of "Dror", there are still other ghetto fighters alive in Israel.

Simcha Rotem, Hela Schiffer-Rufeisen, and Yehuda mimon (Foldek Vaserman)- from "Akiba"

Pnina Grinshpan Primer - non affiliated (fought with left PZ)

Aliza Vitis Shimron and Israel Gutman from "Ha'shomer Ha'tsair"

(hope I didn't forget anyone)

You could have added Aliza's speech
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/remembrance/2013/pdf/survivors.pdf

that ended with:
"I have been given the responsibility to talk about the fighters. I will not rest until more youth have joined to take the burden of memory from me and to take it forwards to future generations.
Remember our people, who were murdered, remember the fighters, and safeguard the dignity of
mankind."

It occurs to me, by chance, that all of which are Zionists. Edelman and V. meed died in the last years, so the Zionists outlived the fighters of the bund (one might still be alive in Canada).

We commemorate them as well, as Marek's last book was just published in Hebrew by "Dror Lanafesh" publishing. (iniative by Chavka)

guess your readers can't read Hebrew so these links are for the
translated introdcution by (dim witted and flawed, but more than nothing) google translate
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=iw&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=iw&tl=en&u=http://drorlanefesh.org.il/index.php/%25D7%25A1%25D7%25A4%25D7%25A8%25D7%2599%25D7%2599%25D7%25AA-%25D7%2591%25D7%2599%25D7%25AA-%25D7%2594%25D7%25A1%25D7%25A4%25D7%25A8-%25D7%259C%25D7%25A8%25D7%2595%25D7%2597-%25D7%2594%25D7%2590%25D7%2593%25D7%259D/%25D7%2595%25D7%2594%25D7%2599%25D7%2599%25D7%25AA%25D7%2594-%25D7%2592%25D7%259D-%25D7%2590%25D7%2594%25D7%2591%25D7%2594-%25D7%2591%25D7%2592%25D7%2598%25D7%2595/#submit

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=iw&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=iw&tl=en&u=http://drorlanefesh.org.il/index.php/%25D7%259C%25D7%2590%25D7%2597%25D7%2595%25D7%25AA-%25D7%2590%25D7%25AA-%25D7%2594%25D7%25A9%25D7%2591%25D7%25A8%25D7%2599%25D7%259D-%25D7%25A8%25D7%2595%25D7%25A2%25D7%2599-%25D7%2591%25D7%25A8%25D7%25A7-%25D7%2595%25D7%2590%25D7%259C%25D7%2595%25D7%259F-%25D7%25A0%25D7%2599%25D7%25A1%25D7%25A8/&usg=ALkJrhgM__hSfKDeYHmZvixdfOKCjLACJg











ארז said...

this translation has a few minor mistakes. I sent my correctinos so "Tikun Olam" as well.

"There is a uniqueness in this commemoration–70 years since the [Warsaw Ghetto] Rebellion. We’re also nearing the end of the Shoah generation and the last of the [ghetto] fighters. Most of you in front of me, you are the generations of continuity: the second, third and fourth generations. I have mixed emotions and thoughts about the past, present, and future.
I will tell you about one experience from that time. Spring 1942. I was a courier for an underground operation. I arrived to visit my the members of Dror movement, at Hrubieszow, in eastern Poland very occupied by the Nazis
I stood in the small railroad station and from the window I could make out, on a field next to the railroad tracks, a great multitude, thousands of men, women, and children. Overseeing them were Germans running wild on horseback. A few meters from me, through the window, I saw four boys digging a hole. The soldiers shot them and they fell into it. The next morning the field was empty. At night, the trains had gone on their way: to the camps, to death.
These were the moments at which I understood and which I feared: this is the beginning of the end. This is the Shoah. With this terrible truth, I returned to the Warsaw ghetto, to my family who was still there, to my comrades.
The [Warsaw Ghetto] rebellion became for us [at that moment] necessary and clear. We continued educational activities and seminars, the underground school and newspapers. It was important to strengthen the Youth in the sad, dying ghetto.
But at this point, it became most important to find weapons sources. The deportation of 300,000 Warsaw Jews to Treblinka in the summer of 1942 strengthened us and determined for us that the last battle–the armed rebellion–neared. That it must break out.
On April 19 1943, seventy years ago, the first rebellion in occupied Europe broke out–the Rebellion of Jews. I wasn’t part of it. As a courier, I had been arrested during resistance operations in Krakow and had been brought to Auschwitz a number of months earlier.
All of my nearest, most beloved comrades fought from the rooftops, in the fires, from the bunkers. Most of them perished. I hurts me that I can no longer remember all their names. We memorialize only a few. But in my heart I am not parted from them, from the forgotten.
Leave in your hearts and memories a place for them, younger generations. For the beautiful and bold, so young, who fell in the last battle. I wish for the thousands of you before me, lives enriched with love, beauty, laughter, and meaning.
Continue the rebellion. A different rebellion of the here and now against evil, even the evil befalling our own and only beloved country. Rebel against racism and violence and hatred of those who are different. Against inequality, economic gaps, poverty, greed and corruption.
Strengthen humanistic education and values of ethics and justice. These too are [a form of] rebellion against alcoholism among our youth and the terrible phenomenon of attacks against the elderly.
Rebel against the Occupation. No–it is forbidden for us to rule over another people, to oppress another [people]. The most important thing is to achieve peace and an end to the cycle of blood[letting]. My generation dreamed of peace. I so want to achieve it. You have the power to help. All my hopes are with you. Let it be!"

Tony Greenstein said...

Nothing was eliminated or erased, unlike the regular practice of Yad Vashem which neo-Nazis like to have their photos taken outside of and to which far-right European politicians pay homage to.

I wasn't aware of which Zionist group sh was a member of but the correction above has rectified that.

It is actually irrelevant. When the fighters organised membership of groups became secondary. They were abandoned by the Zionist movement internatinally, led by Ben Gurion, whose own official biographer is scathing about his behaviour

I spelt Chavka's name the way it was printed in other articles.

What mattered most in the Warsaw Ghetto and other more minor rebellions was the very fact of being organised, youth and not being part of the Zionist leadership

Erez said...

I pitty the way You cannot share a tribute to people, who represent "The enemy" in your opinion.

Yad Vashem, though highly problematic, has nothing to do with this. Ben Gurion etc.

as for the name - https://www.facebook.com/pages/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%95%D7%A7%D7%94-%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%9F-%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%9F-Chavka-Folman-Raban/150380021684586?ref=stream

that is easily fixable.

to some extent, your are right about the irrelevancy of the group affiliation at the time.

I think we wouldn't agree about this, but You might try to understand my concept which claims that those youth, were the Zionist leadership of their time. and together with the rest, THe Jewish leadership. spiritually, above all, but also practically - they led thousands to struggle as much as possible. That is the important issue.

for the rst:

the story about being "abandoned by Zionist leadership" is not very aacurate. read pg. 446 and on from:
http://books.google.co.il/books?id=CVGI15EjM2IC&printsec=frontcover&hl=iw#v=onepage&q&f=false


for a description of detailed connections. This was way below what should have been, but even as such, it probably saved thousands of lives.

I think you got it wrong also about BG, maybe because of selectiveness. Shatai Tevet did denounces many of Ben-Gurion annoucemnts on the subject, but Tuvia Friling exposes a very different view about his actions, which were quite secret at the time. It is important to mention that most of them failed, but it is factually based and quite different than what You imply.

http://books.google.co.il/books?id=887f3NL7l3cC&pg=RA1-PA195&hl=iw&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

Tony Greenstein said...

Erez,

I pay tribute to those who led or participated in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, regardless of whether they were Zionists. Mocdechai Anielwicz was as much as a hero as Market Edelman.

It is the Israeli state which ignored Edelman and which will no doubt do much the same for Chavka. It is Yad Vashem which devoted a wall to the minor war criminal, the Mufti, as if he was the second Hitler. It is the Holocaust Encyclopaedia which gives the Mufti an article second only to Hitler and longer than Himmler or Eichman combined.

We will have to disagree about Ben Gurion. His own biographer Teveth described how he saw the holocaust as a 'beneficial opportunity'. When Tom Segev interviewed him about this he was nonchalant. They're dead why rake these things up.

So no, I don't trust the 'secret' detalings he did just as I don't accept that Kasztner was some kind of hero and find the abuse of Arabs who go to YV a strange contrast which official guides for Michal Kaminski, Robert Ziles (the Latvian MEP who marches each year with the Latvia SS veterans).

The youth of the ghetto, who had to overcome their own leadership, were indeed the Jewish leadership of the WG. The tragedy is that they were unable to prevent the transports but their symbolic value was nonetheless important, which is why Eichmann moved at lighning speed in Hungary and was prepared to offer 1600 Jews as an 'incentive' to Kastner to help in the arrangements with others.

The Zionist leadership were totally uninterested in the Ghetto Uprising and even, as Shabtai beit Zvi spread the lie of the 53 ghettos the Nazis spread. The Bund tried and tried the Zionist leadership wasn't interested. Their only debate at the time was how or if they could rescue their own.

You know they delayed the Riegner telegram of August 1942 for 3 months at the behest of the US State Dept. Can u really forgive that or excuse it? Not that they didn't know already. Where were the campaigns? They were prepared to fight a war against the White Paper as if there was no war but not a war to save the refugees but instead blocked efforts in Freiland, Santo Domingo, the US itself (where Nahum Goldman is on record in a meeting with the State Department as saying Bergson was as much an enemy as Hitler).

Erez said...

Well, it seems, We do agree aobut the rebellion, and We don't agree about everything else.
fine.

I'd hope You'd Pay attenion to an issue of context, and not just content.

This is your blog and You run it as You wish, but there is something ditasteful in the context.

There is nothing dishonorable in paying tribute without spreading all your criticism against Ben Gurion and Yad Vashem.

There is something dishonoring tone in doing the opposite.

Tony Greenstein said...

Yes I don't think we have any major disagreements about the rebellion. They were heroes and the differences ideologically between them were of little or no account.

My context is that whereas even the AK, which had leading anti-Semites leading it, made efforts to locate the extermination camps, as did the Bund. But Ben Gurion even opposed bombing the camps and railway lines during the war and though Weizmann and Shertok made the request it was perfunctory.

The use of the holocaust to justify what is happening to the Palestinians, the racism inherent in Israeli society, the fact that sections of the Orthodox have adopteda genocidal method of thinking and justification (Yitzhak Shapira's Torat HeMelech or the ban on letting apartments to Arabs in S afed and much else besides suggests to me that you and those who remain from the holocaust generation should be speaking up.

Erez said...

But we do speak-up. WE just don't do it in such a disrespectful way to our own message.

Some of these phenomenons are oppossed quite well in her speech.

Chavka has the dignity to do it with volume, but in a general way.

When You write these introduction the way You do, it's like You put your words in her mouth, or make some kind of a mixture, and I can tell You, from pesonal connection, she would not want You to do it like this. now that I read it again, there's another mistake.
Independence day is 8 days after the holocaust memmorial day.

Anyhow, You can continue your crusade against Zionism in all other posts. Don't drag her there, because that's not who she is, and not what she stands for.

BTW I'm not old as You might think.

Mooser said...

"I pitty the way You cannot share a tribute to people, who represent "The enemy" in your opinion."

I'm sorry Erez, I am unable to identify the source of your quote "The enemy" in the text. Could you tell us where it is?
I'm a little unclear as to who you are positing Tony Greenstein is identifying as "The enemy"

Tony Greenstein said...

In fact I copied almost verbatim the articles of others. My introduction is of course my own take on matters, as is my take on the theft of money by the Jewish Claims Conference.

I don't think holocaust survivors, with few exceptions, have made their voices clear. Regardless of whether Chavka approves of my take on her comments I believe they are valid. The holocaust has been used to justify ethnic cleansing and racism. Where were they when the head of the Yesha Rabbinical Council Dov Lior said that a Jewish fingernail wasn't worth a thousand non-Jewish lives or when Torat haMelech was published to rapturous acclaim by leading rabbis?

Erez said...

Mooser: that's simple. read this Blog. You'll get it.

Mooser said...

"Erez said...
Mooser: that's simple. read this Blog. You'll get it."


Another words, the quote is a lie. If that is how casually you lie, why on earth would I listen to you concerning anything? Because we both happen to be Jewish? You think that's a good reason to listen to a liar?

I read this blog regularly, and pretty closely, and as far as I can tell, Tony Greenstein has no enemies except oppression and suffering, and of course, he battles whatever personal failings he, like all of us, is heir to. But frankly, I'm pretty sure that level of mendacity you display is not among them.

Mooser said...

"and I can tell You, from pesonal connection, she would not want You to do it like this."

You really couldn't come up with a quote to prove this?

Erez said...

Mooser: You are very boring.
If you read the blog, You know who is targeted.

CHavka is a member of Dror.
After the war she worked in "The Zionist Coordination" to retrieve Jewish Children from different rescuers in Poland.
She Made Aliya and shw was one of the founders of Kibbutz Lochamei Hagetaot (ghetto fighters kibbutz).
She is a hardcore Socialist Zionist. of course, she respects other opinions, but like any other person, she doesn't like her opinions to be used in a manipulative way, like in the introduction. If You need a quote to understand that You are a hopeless case.

What did I say that hurt You so much, that You fill a need to put words to my mouth? What are You trying to defend ?

As I ask Tony to not use Chavka to advance his own opinions, which are very different, I expect You don't twist my words.

Mooser said...

"Erez said...
But we do speak-up. WE just don't do it in such a disrespectful way to our own message."

"Erez said
I pitty the way You cannot share a tribute to people, who represent "The enemy" in your opinion."


"Erez said...
Mooser: that's simple. read this Blog. You'll get it."


Gosh, Erez, I'm so confused and disheartened. Can you explain these contradictions? I was always taught that tribal unity requires respect for the words and motivations of our brothers.

Yet you use a false quote to make one of the most terrible libels possible. I gotta wonder, is this how Zionism, and Israel, was built? By Jews lying about each other? You can't leave to think that, can you.
By G-d, by now I'm wondering if you even really know how to spell her name.
You will explain, won't you, Erez?






Tony Greenstein said...

I am finding it difficult to follow Erez. I'm not painting Chavka as a saint or saying I disagree with most if not all of what she says, but it is a twistedd mind that says I am using or manipulating what she says.

Holocaust survivors came in many shapes and forms - from Elie Wiesel who used it to get rich and refused even to acknowledge the Armenian holocaust to Rudolph Vrba who called Israel a 'state of Judenrats'.

It is irrelevant that she was a member of Dror. I specifically said that in the situation of the ghettos and forests one's particular political attachment lost much of its relevance but since u wish to be pedantic I'll make this point.

As I've already quoted, with reference to Anielwicz, who said that the Zionist 'education' and setting up 'kibbutzim' in Nazi-occupied Poland was a waste of time. Indeed the Bund called it scabbing because they replaced Polish slave labour sent to Germany.

The Zionists came to the Bund to help organise the Uprising. The Bund was sceptical at first, given the atrocious record of Zionist collaboration with fascism before the war, including Beitar being trained under Pilsduski and then Mussolini. The Zionists preached separation from non-Jews. With the exception of Left-Poale Zion (who can barely be called Zionists as they saw how useless it was) none of the other Zionist groups had contact with non-Jewish parties of the left. That is why they couldn't obtain sufficient arms.

Ironically the other exception was Beitar/Herut which also had close contacts with the Polish Fascists, who nonetheless opposed the Nazis being patriots of sorts, and supplied them with a heavy machine gun and other weaponry for the fight at Murowska Square which arguably caused more physical damage and injuries to the Nazis.

I am making the point, illustrating it by Chavka's speech, that the survivors of the holocaust have a duty to follow Edelman not the Kasztners and other collaborators. They should speak out, as Chavka has now done, against an occupation which takes on many of the forms of Nazi occupation, including magazines like the Lubavitch Fountains of Salvation http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/arabs-to-ovens.html which openly spoke about death camps for Palestinians.

Instead of railing against me organise those who are left collectively to speak out against the iniquities of the occupation, the racism against Arabs that is as bad as that of the Nazis - terming Palestinians 'vermin' 'cockroaches' etc. That would be a magnificent contribution to the struggle for justice.

Accept that socialism, univeralism and Zionism, Jewish particularism (which essentially benefits the Jewish oligarchs, a handful of families in Israel) is a relic of an outdated age.

Use your Jewishness to oppose racism publicly and the poverty that holocaust survivors experience as their reparations are stolen for Zionist projects by the Israeli government and Jewish Claims Conference.

Do some good with your experiences instead of wallowing in self-pity and nitpicking.

CHavka is a member of Dror.
After the war she worked in "The Zionist Coordination" to retrieve Jewish Children from different rescuers in Poland.
She Made Aliya and shw was one of the founders of Kibbutz Lochamei Hagetaot (ghetto fighters kibbutz).
She is a hardcore Socialist Zionist. of course, she respects other opinions, but like any other person, she doesn't like her opinions to be used in a manipulative way, like in the introduction. If You need a quote to understand that You are a hopeless case.

What did I say that hurt You so much, that You fill a need to put words to my mouth? What are You trying to defend ?

As I ask Tony to not use Chavka to advance his own opinions, which are very different, I expect You don't twist my words.

Erez said...

mooser: had you been coherent maybe I could help.

TG: I'd wish You'd know when enough is enough. You just keep adding more and more of your opinions and disputable historical notions, which is completely out irrelevant.

The context is the main issue here.
fundamentally, surviving the holocaust doesn't give anyone more or less right or responsibility to learn moral lessons from it.

If any, survivors should follow whoever they believe, and not who You tell them to. That's very rude of You to imply otherwise.

Chavka speaks out all the time, and for many years. It seems You imply otherwise, but You are wrong about that.
I suggest You learn a small portion of that from the 2005 movie about her
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Z-9SL8zvY called "And what are You rebelling against?"

It is not made with the regular Israeli concept of the holocaust.

You keep changing the subject all the time. Richard Silverstein published her speech with a respectful introduction. He chose, like many reporters, to emphasize her call to end the occupation.
That's respectful because she actually said it.

Your intro was flawed by your personal grudge of Israel mistreating Edelman. IT doesn't matter if you are right about it, That is disrespectful of her.

Let's be honest: You don't need her to say What You want, and She doesn't want to say what You want, because she has other opinions.

What is so wrong in publishing her speech as is, and writing your opinions in other posts, like You usually do ?

Tony Greenstein said...

u say that 'surviving the holocaust doesn't give anyone more or less right or responsibility to learn moral lessons from it.'

But it does give them the opportunity. If holocaust survivors, after the hell they went through, cannot draw certain conclusions from the evil of Nazism and racism generally, then their sufferings have been in vain.

Some holocaust survivors - Shahak, Vrba, Hajo Meyer, have devoted themselves to doing just that.

If, even now, you were to stop making minor nitpicking points about etiquette and talk of respect and instead gathered together a group of holocaust survivors to decry what is being done in their name, and Israel does invoke the holocaust as u know to justify its actions, then you would have contributed to preventing other holocausts.

Can u rise to the challenge?

Mooser said...

Erez: I put words in your mouth? Where did I do that?

Mooser said...

"surviving the holocaust doesn't give anyone more or less right or responsibility to learn moral lessons from it."

I know I didn't see that. I must be reading it wrong.

So if we can't learn moral lessons from it, the only lesson left is the practical lesson?

Mooser said...

"Mooser, you are very boring"

Ah, that's why you read every comment I made and struggled through a response.
They say that being bored helps you live longer, by making time go slower. You should thank me.

Mooser said...

Tony, unless I'm mistaken (always the first choice) a response from "Erez" is appended to a response from you with no divider or heading. IINM, it's the 19:23 comment, and the words "wallowing in self-pity and nitpicking" are the end of you comment, and the word "Chavka" begins another comment from Erez.

Mooser said...

Tony: "Do some good with your experiences instead of wallowing in self-pity and nitpicking."

Erez: "BTW I'm not old as You might think."


Erez said...

mooser: since You some kind of fixation towards me, I wrote something childish, stupid and annoying. meaning - adapted to your language and skills.
If You have anything serious and worth reading please comment there and not here, and leave an Email.
I still don't understand your motives in general, and specifically in degrading this post that started with words of a very important Woman.


All the rest: If You are not mooser, there is absolutely no reason for you to surf to the link below

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1ZTEdUuMOYnYafwFdzNUt4rhXNbzEEae_2I2UfDjOAnc/edit

Mooser said...

Good Lord, Erez, what on earth do you have to say to me that can't be said here? I'm pretty sure Tony would host the conversation as long as it stayed within the bounds of decency. I can do that.

And click a link from you?
A link you explicitly tell others not to click? Sure, I'll do that, right away!

Erez, I'm sure you can paste the relevant material from the link into a comment here, and we can all see it.




Mooser said...

"and specifically in degrading this post that started with words of a very important Woman."

You sir, it grieves me to asseverate are prevaricating again. Why do you do that?
I never once referred to the post or the woman.
I was wondering why you chose to make up a false quote, inferring that Tony Greenstein called either the Jews or the Zionists (in your quotes) "The enemy"
My question to you is, and has always been, why would you do that, make the most vicious libel so casually and so falsely?
And if you would do that, why should I trust you concerning anything else?

Two questions, pretty plainly put, I would think. Answer or don't.