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Thursday, 15 October 2009

Zionism Boycotts the Funeral of Marek Edelman

A sad farewell to Marek Edelman - the last surviving Commander of the Bund. The article below describes his funeral in Warsaw, where he was buried, although he lived in Poland's second city, Lodz.

It is noticeable that apart from the attendance of Shevach Weiss, a previous Israeli Ambassador to Poland, in his personal capacity, there was no represen
tation from the 'Jewish' State or any 'national' institution of Zionism.

Having tried to claim the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising for itself, despite the fact that Zionism from 1933 onwards collaborated with Nazism wherever it could, and opposed resistance as 'unZionist', in particular in breaking the anti-Nazi economic and cultural boycott, [see Edwin Black's 'The Transfer Agreement for details] it found Edelman an embarrassment.

Marek Edelman was not a mythical Massada figure or straight from central casting in Hollywood, but a real, live Jewish resistance fighter who had survived against the odds. The problem was that he was not a Zionist. Indeed, even worse. He had compared the fight of the ZOB, Jewish Fighting Organisation, to that of the Palestinians, whom he termed the Palestinian Fighting Organisations.

It was he, Edelman, who saw that th
e murderous racism of the Nazis was mirrored in Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. So, as the article says, Edelman was treated like an embarrassing relative. Never to be mentioned. It was left to the Polish people, represented by their President, to pay their last respects to a uniquely remarkable man. So we should welcome that The State of Collaborators - Israel - not unnaturally decided to boycott the funeral, petty and vindictive to the last.

The article makes mention of the first Commander of ZOB, Mordechai Anielwicz of Hashomer Hatzair. In Israel Anielwicz's role is used to associate Zionism with resistance whereas the opposite is the case. ZOB had to take out and assassinate members of the Jewish Police and the Judenrat (Jewish Council) most of whom were Zionists, including members of Hashomer Hatzair like Abraham Gancawajch.

But in fact members of the Zionist youth groups who took
part in the Warsaw Ghetto Resistance rebelled not because of, but despite, their Zionist allegiance. They were both young, and therefore not hidebound by their bourgeois elders, but also they had an organisation. In any such situation, the mere fact of an organisation, regardless of the purposes for which it was formed, is an advantage in crystallising rebellion.

Indeed the conclusions that Anielwicz, who let us not forget was very young, drew are very interesting.
Anielwicz’s who commanded ZOB, expressed his regret over the “wasted time” undergoing Zionist educational work.* Anielwicz went on to say that “had the fate of the Jews in 1942 lain in the hands only
of the political parties (Zionist - TG), the revolt would never have taken place.” **

*
Gutman p. 441 fn. 23.
** Yisrael Gutman, the Jews of Warsaw 1939-45, Ghetto, Underground, Revolt, Harvester Press, Brighton, 1994 , p. 143 citing Yitzhak Zuckerman and Council of Kibbutz Hi Meuhad 4/1945.,

Tony Greenstein


The Last Bundist

Marek Edelman dies last week. He was 90.

He was bur
ied on Friday. Marek Edeleman was the last surviving member of the Warsaw Ghetto. He was one of the leaders of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, and its last commander - after Mordechai Anelewicz was killed.

The President of Poland spoke at his funeral, held in the old Jewish cemetery of Warsaw. Two thousand people attended the grave-side ceremony. But no one from the Israeli government attended - though Israel's former ambassador to Poland, Shevach Weiss, attended in a personal capacity. No official representative of any international Jewish organization attended either: not even from the Holocaust memorialization organizations. As far as I can tell, neither the Jerusalem Post nor Ha'aretz ran a story when Edelman died, nor any sort of eulogy. (Haaretz did run a short AP wire story about his funeral.)

Why is Edeleman mostly ignored while Anelewicz is lionized? (I lived for a year on Mordechai Anelewicz St. in Jerusalem, there is a kibbutz Kfar Mordechai named after him, his name and story is taught in every Israeli school, and in most Hebrew Schools around the world.)

Perhaps because he remained a firm anti-Zionist all his life. In pre-war Poland he was a leader of the "Bund" - the Jewish Socialist Party, that advocated for a "multi-cultural" solution for Jews within a socialist Poland. It dreamed of a thriving Yiddish based Jewish culture within a secular, multi-ethnic Poland - where significant minorities - like Jews and Ukrainians - would have cultural autonomy. The Bund was a significant party within the Polish Parliament of those years, and there where as many supporters of the Bund as there where Zionists among polish Jews of the 1930s. After the war Edelman remained in Poland, became a noted doctor, and later was active in the Soli
darity movement that brought down Communism in Poland. In the 1990s, he served in the Polish Parliament.

In 2002, in the middle of the second intifada, Edelman wrote a letter to Palestinian resistance leaders. Though the letter criticized the suicide bombers, its tone infuriated the Israeli government and press. According to The Guardian, "He wrote in a spirit of solidarity from a fellow resistance fighter, as a former leader of a Jewish uprising not dissimilar in desperation to the Palestinian uprising in the occupied territories." He addressed his letter to "To all the leaders of Palestinian military, paramilitary and guerrilla organizations - To all the soldiers of Palestinian militant groups". This set up a howl of rage in the Israeli press, especially that Edelman had consciously used the terms that described the structures of the resistance movement in Warsaw.

I am struck by Edelman's consistency throughout his life. He believed that Jewish liberation could only come through the liberation of the people among whom they lived, and he opposed Zionism as an escape from the Jewish responsibility to help liberate all people. He was too much of an anti-Zionist to move to Israel, and too much of a socialist to move to America. He also felt a responsibility to the few Jews remaining in Poland, and to the memory of all those who perished there. He saw no reason for a Jews to move in order to solve "the Jewish problem". He believed that Jews should fight for their rights (and those of others) wherever they lived. He believed that a Jewish life could be lived anywhere. He remained a Bundist to the end.

The picture at the top of this posting is of Edelman's funeral on Friday. The picture below is an enhanced close up of the banner that is draped over his coffin. It reads in Yiddish: Yiddisher Sotzailisicher Farbund - "The Jewish Socialist Bund."

From Sydney Nestel’s Blog

9 comments:

ארז said...

I would like to share my true fillings of respect towards marek Edelman.

I resent the attempt to use his memory to fight against Zionism, it is futile, untruthful and will not succeed.

Zionism opposed Nazism all the time. The agreement called here "collaboration", in fact, saved lots of Jewish life and some of their fortune - all of which would be taken by Nazis later, as happened to rest of thew Jews of Germany.

In his letter to the commanders of the Palestinian armed groups in 2002, Marek emphasized the difference between his struggles at Warsaw, and suicide bombings or attacks against civilians
http://meduni.blogspot.com/2009/01/le-riflessioni-di-marek-edelman.html

He was not a Palestinian supporter but a worthy critic of violence from both sides.

You twist a horrid twist to the memory Mordechai Anielwicz of Hashomer Hatzair.

First, the kibbutz is called Yad Mordechai, not Kfar Mordechai ("his memory" and not "his village")

Indeed, He regretted time that was spent only for (underground) educational work, with the lack of military preparation, not against Zionism.

The survivors of that rebellion including Marek Edelman confirm that the Zionist members of Z.O.B fought because of their Zionism, and not in spite of it.
the books of Marek Edelman, Zivia Lubetkin, Izchak Zuckerman and others demonstrate it very well.

Anielwicz criticizes all elders of all parties, because all the political parties were against fighting, not just Zionists.

The Bund denied a Jewish focused effort for fighting and supported an alliance with the polish underground, which ment that the Jews would start fighting only when the Poles decide about it.

Anielwicz founded the Z.O.B against the will of the Zionist elders, and Marek Edelman Joined the Bund to it, against the will of his party elders.

in fact, Anielwicz was one of the Youth movements activists that infiltrated to the Nazi occupied Poland from the Soviet territory - the only known case of Jewish leaders returning to Nazi territory from relative freedom.
The zionists of Palestine sent a group of parachutists like Hana Senesh, but much later.

The biggest difficulty was to break the general illusion, about the nature of the Nazi regime.

At January 1942, Aba kovner, Zionist youth leader of Hasomer Hatsair, concludes that the Nazi's intend to hunt and murder every Jew, after being exposed to the mass killings of the Jews of Vilno.
few month later, A polish messenger traveled secretly near Treblinka, and confirmed the rumors about the nature of that death camp. He delivers his report to the Bund in Warsaw.

They were able to unite against racist antisemitic fascism, and fight for the value of human life, for freedom, and for a better world. Why ca'nt You ?

Of course Marek deserves better recognition in Israel and everywhere else.knowing the history of Dror, Hashomer Hatsair, freiheit, and Hachalutz does not prevent it, it supports it.

Tony Greenstein said...

Erez Raviv of The Museum of Kibbutz Lohamei Ghetataot has posted 3 times to 2 of the articles on Marek Edelman.

Let me first say that I welcome constructive debate and discussion over something like the memory and reputation of Marek Edelman. It is utterly unlike the normally abusive rhetoric one normally receives.

Unfortunately I am away from home and not at my computer. Not only that but the computer I am working on, in a hotel lobby doesn't even have an ability to copy and paste!

Hence I am unable to reprint or quote from an article by Moshe Arens 'The Last Bundist' in Ha'aretz of 5.10.09.

It is, however, easy to google it if you doubt it. In it Arens makes quite clear, explicitly clear that he was an anti-Zionist. Arens states that he understood well his position on Israeli politics and as a parting shot said 'You must make peace with the Arabs'.

It is simply untrue that Zionism opposed Nazism all the time. Erez knows this is untrue, that Zionist movements were legal unlike all others after 1935 in Germany. That Zionist emissaries came and went in Nazi Germany. That Zionists were by far the largest component of the Judenrat.

And there were crowning glories such as the economic agreement between the Zionist Organisation and the Nazi State 'Haavarah'.

Yes Marek opposed suicide bombing, so do I. But he also realised why Palestinians engaged in these acts, the desperation involved and it is a great tragedy that Erez is unable to do so.

Erez should have a look at the articles on collaboration re Argentinian Jewry. Here you had a strong Israeli state, maybe the 4th strongest in the world. Yet what did it do? Trade in arms with these vile fascists. So I can only conclude that Erez has also sold his soul for a mess of potage. He has certainly imbibed the idea that what was involved was a Jewish fight but there is no trace of anti-fascism in his remarks.

Erez is simply wrong to say that Marek was not a Palestinian supporter.

Nor do I intend to do any disservice to Mordechai Anielwicz, who died a brave and heroic death. It is those who have harnessed his memory to the cause of Zionism, with its destruction of Arab villages, its apartheid structures of oppression within Israel, its utter subjugation of those in the Occupied Territories, who do that.

The mistake over Yad Mordechai is not mine. I made it clear that I had copied the article wholesale from Syd's blog and it is with Sid you must remonstrate!

I have quoted Israel Guttman to the effect that Mordechai Anielwicz regretted the time spent on Zionist educational and training activities. Those are his words not mine.

I won't comment on Abba Kovner, except that his reputation as a resistance leader is undeserved. Apart from trying to poison the water of millions of Germans after the war he did little. He was responsible for forcing the leader of the Vilna Resistance, Yitzhak Wittenberg, to surrender to the Gestapo, alonside Jacob Gens, leader of the Judenrat. By all accounts, not least those of his deputy, Chaim Lazar, his resistance group mainly engaged in despoilation of the Polish peasants as well as refusing to admit Jewish refugees, women and children, to the group. His is certainly a myth.

Yes the Polish Resistance obtained details, not so much of Treblinka (the Bund did this itself from what I recall) but Auschwitz. This information was ignored by the Allies in conjunction with the Zionist leaders who had no interest in anything other than polite lobbying as millions died.

Erez you won't understand this because you made a trade-off so long ago but consider at least Moshe Arens article where he states that Marek Edelman, received the highest Polish honours, the French Legion medal but nothing whatsoever from the 'Jewish State'.

Is it any wonder that Israel turned a blind eye and worse to the torture and murder of Argentinian leftist Jews when it has ignored the passing of one of the true heroes of the Jewish Resistance in Warsaw?

ארז said...

Tony, You are an insult to free thinking and honesty.

Your criticism is so full of hate, that it is impossible to follow a constructive debate from it.

You fail to discern between sayings and actions. Marek Edelman was Anti-Zionist by words, and a partner of Zionists by actions.
He visited Lochamei Hagetaot many times and was full of warm feelings towards the socialist Zionist creation - The Kibbutz. He was completely against any media coverage of those visits, hence another reason of his absence from the Israeli collective memory, but the ones close to him could differentiate between image and truth. Arens states otherwise, probably, because he was never close to Marek, and Isn't the best source of information about him. Marek's, Zuckerman's and Lubetkin's writings are a good source for that.

second, You fail to understand the debate between Bundism and Zionism.
The main critic of Bundism against Zionism, is that if Zionism fail to deal with the biggest enemy - Capitalism, it would not matter if A Jewish state will rise, because capitalism will destroy Jewish life. (The Bund also objected Jewish renewal in U.K and U.S for being the leaders of capitalism)

The second criticism is that Jewish independence in the middle east would have to be militant.

all of those are relevant and coherent, and us Israelis have to deal with them carefully.

The criticism of Zionism against Bundism is that no socialist revolution could happen in Tchum Hamoshav, and in the case it does, it couldn't stop deep antisemitic currents from eliminating Judaism by law or by violence. almost no non-Jew socialist activist could accept the Jews as a nation. The Bund was accepted (some of the years) as a partner because of its political and organizational power, not because of its ideas - those were dreams detached from any reality.

The aftermath, is that there is no Jewish national community in eastern Europe, socialist or not.
Hitler murdered it, with a lot of help from the east-European peoples.

Jews of Palestine, Zionist and anti-Zionists, were not murdered, established a state and have the power (and expectations of world Jewry including You) to act in favor of Jewish interests - in my view they include socialism and peace. I criticise the fascists in my country, I educate against it, but I (and the fascists) deeply understand that without Israel there wouldn't be any "game to play".


You also deliberately fail to discern Gutman's and Anielwicz intention in context : the essence in the regret is not about Zionism, but about education as primary activity without military training. that regret demonstrates his high moral, but not rational thinking because without the educational effort there wouldn't be any Z.O.B
You can't just quote one sentence from a person and hope to understand his entire philosophy

Even enemies have mutual interests from time to time. The Nazis allowed the Zionists to operate in Germany to help them get rid of more Jews. the aftermath shows, that the Jews that were evacuated by Zionist efforts saved their lives, against the interests of the Nazis during the war. When Nazi interests changed from deporting the Jew to murdering them, that was the point were Zionism was abandoned in Nazi interest.

The remark about majority of Zionists in Judenrats is simply a lie.

Zionism, as well as the Palestinians are not unanimous. such an analysis is completely unmarxist, and somewhat racist.
I'm not against human, civil, and national rights for Palestinians, I'm against achieving them through terror. same goes for Jews who support violence. the criticism against Israel's violence is important but mustn't be dogmatic. Marek was a supporter of peace, and human rights, in Poland and every other place, not sides.

Personally, I have a country and a people to fight for, learn it's history, educate it's youth, teach them to search the truth behinf the ideaologies, struggle for equality in it.
What have You ? criticism and a Blog ? and .... ?

Tony Greenstein said...

Erez, you say that my 'criticism is so full of hate, that it is impossible to follow a constructive debate from it.'

It depends of course on wha you mean by constructive.

But let me put it to you and your comrades in Lochamei Hagetaot quite explicitly and clearly.

You are a kibbutz that is a ghetto-fighters kibbutz. Whether all those in the Kibbutz merit that title I doubt but in any case it is not relevant.

What I do expect and the Jewish generations that will succeed you expect or rather deserve are words of Isaiah and Jeremiah, not the carefully chosen platitudes and homilies that you have chosen to give.

Your kibbutz is, from what I recall, a Hashomer kibbutz. A kibbutz of what was once the Zionist left. A left that in 1949 achieved the 2nd highest no. of votes after Mapai. And now? It is doubtful if Mapam could get more than 1 seat after the next election.

Or maybe you do not recognise the cries of 'death to the Arabs'. You are so intoxicated by Jewish chauvinism that you don't understand what it means when Arab towns and villages are threatened with destruction because they are unrecognised, as are 50% of Israeli villages. Arabs, present-absentees, people born in the land are strangers and outcasts in it yet you and Yad Vashem, who have some old and unfathomable differences between yourselves, say absolutely nothing.

That is the real disgrace. Not whether or not the Bund commanded 70 or 80% of the Polish Jewish vote and whether the Zionists were a tiny minority or even smaller.

Not once have the fighters represented in your kibbutz ever spoken out against the Liebermans or indeed when Yitzhak Shamir, whose organisation Lehi proposed a military pact with Nazi Germany, became Prime Minister. Yes a Nazi supporting Zionist as PM of Israel.

I do indeed detest the racism and chauvinism of Zionism and its 'Jewish' State. The same state that actively condoned the murder of Jewish anti-fascists in Argentina by a Junta Israel did good business with.

Netanyahu has been in the forefront of this chauvinism and racism. He is quite clear about making the West Bank Arabrein. So in reference to another post of yours I don't treat him with any normal civility and consider he lied over Marek and a thousand and one other things too.

Tony Greenstein said...

Marek, for all his faults, and they were many in his later years, always distinguished between the oppressed and oppressor. That you have signally failed to do. Of course it is understandable in his later years that he visited your kibbutz but he did not compromise on his support for the Palestinians and compared their fighters to those of the ghetto fighters.

It is to your shame that you think you are unique.

I understand very well the criticism Bundism had of Zionism. Zionism was not seen as any form of solution to anti-Semitism. It advocated running away from it and in the process it legitimised everything the anti-Semites said and worse. Indeed many of their utterances were on a par or even worse than the Nazis. 'Hideous creatures' were the Galut according to Klatzkin, and Herzl and Hess were no better.

The fact is that the Bund organised with non-Jewish socialists. Maybe they were too separatist but at least they recognised the need for joint work. Hence why the weaponry for the ghetto revolt came primarily via the Bund. Yes, in view of Zionism's record, the Bund was reluctant to work with the Zionist parties. That much is self evident. But only left-PZ was able to obtain arms because it was the only Zionist group, apart from the Revisionists, to cultivate links with non-Jewish socialists.

The regrets of Anielwicz were not simply about education minus military training. What he felt was that the whole of the Zionist activity, the kibbutzim in Poland, the voluntarism as the Bund termed it or scabbing, replacing Polish workers by Zionists on the farms, was irrelevant.

My figures on Zionist participation in the Judenrat were derived from Isaiah Trunk, Table 2 page 34. Admittedly not a scientific study, but of those who responded over 77% of those who participated in the Judenrat were Zionists. I think that is a majority and in any event how can it be denied that Zionism, as a bourgeois political movement, had no option but to co-operate?

But my main argument is with the Zionist leadership outside Palestine which consciously sought to block emigration to any country but Palestine. And it was successful in this too. You might indeed sit out the rest of your retirment in Kibbutz Hagetaot following blogs etc.

My own experience in fighting fascism in Britain, the National Front and BNP, was that Zionist youth were wholly absent from the battles we had. on the contrary, when we tried to involve Jewish youth in such struggles we were told that you couldn't fight anti-semitism other than by running away to Israel. The person who told me that was the shaliach in Brighton and Hove. And that is the message of Zionism. Anti-Semitism cannot be fought.

And what lessons have you and the others learnt from Europe? Do you ever wonder about where the former inhabitants of your kibbutz are, or why Arabs cannot join a kibbutz because it is Jewish land?

For all his sins Marek Edelman understood these questions but in deference to your age and the place where he was he clearly didn't expound on them at length.

But the fact that the Jewish State didn't have the courage to send just one OFFICIAL representative to his funeral, which the President of Poland attended, speaks volumes

You say you have a country. So do I - it's called Great Britain! But it's one where I and others like me are in opposition to the ruling class and their hangers-on.

You have succumbed to the virus of Zionist racism. 'Your' country does not include Arabs as equals. And as it slides to the openly far-right and questions the loyalty of its 5th column, shades of Germany, so you put your blinkers on and pretend that nothing is amiss. That is the real tragedy. When an Arab child is prevented from attending a nursery because she is not Jewish and the parents object, where were the demonstrations and protests? I think my country would have rested easy with this. You have become accustomed to racism posing as nationalism.

ארז said...

REPLY 1/2

TONY, I ONLY COMMENTED ON YOUR BLOG TO SAVE THE MEMORY OF MAREK EDELMAN FROM YOUR FUALTY IRRELEVANT REMARKS

I WISH YOU WOULDN'T REPLY ANYMORE. I'LL QUIT NOW ONLY WITH CORRECTING YOUR HISTORICAL FAULT, AND YOUR SPELLING MISTAKES

Marek, for all his faults, and they were many in his later years, always distinguished between the oppressed and oppressor. That, you have signally failed to do. Of course it is understandable in his later years that he visited your kibbutz but he did not compromise on his support for the Palestinians and compared their fighters to those of the ghetto fighters.
DOUBLE FALSE

MAREK VISITED LOCHAMEI HAGETAOT EVEN BEFORE I WAS BORN. HE VISITED IT MANY TIMES, BOTH IN RECENT YEARS AND IN OLD TIMES.

I'M NOT A MEMBER OF THIS KIBBUTZ, BUT OF THE GHETTO FIGHTERS HOUSE MUSEUM, AND FRIEND OF SOME OF ITS FOUNDERS , THAT KNEW MAREK PERSONALLY FOR LONG YEARS, UNLIKE YOU OR ARENS, FOR THAT MATTER. SOMETIMES, DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN OPRESSOR AND OPRESSED IS COMPLICATED, AS ISAERLI'S OPRESSES PALESTINIANS, BUT NOT LESS THAN PALESTINIAN TERROR GROUPS OR ARAB COUNTRIES. THOSE TERROR GROUPS DOESN'T ENDANGER ISRAEL FOR THEMSELVES, BUT THEY HAVE THE BACKING OF REACTIONARY REGIMES LIKE IRAN AND SYRIA, THAT ENDANGER ISRAEL VERY MUCH. MAREK COULD SEE THAT, AND IDETIFIED WITH THE PALESTINIANS STRUGGLE FOR HUMAN AND NATIONAL RIGHTS, BUT NOT IN THE COURSE OF TERROR, OR EXTRIMIST ISLAMIC RULE. LIKE MAY ZIONIST ISRAELIS, HE SUPPORTED ENDING THE OCCUPATION AND FREEDOM FOR PALESTINIANS, BUT NOT BY LETTING TERRORISTS OCCOUPY THEM MORE VIOLENTLY THAT ISRAEL. IT SEEMS YOU ARE NOT AWARE THAT MORE PALESTINIANS WERE KILLED BY INNER ARMED GROUPS, THAN BY ISRAEL. YES, ISRAELI JEWS FONUDED SOME FASCIST VIOLENT GROUPS, BUT A LOT OF THE FONUDERS WERE BORN IN THE U.S. AND WE DO A BETTER JOB IN OPRESSING THEM THAN THE PALESTINIANS EVER DID TO ITS OWN ARMED GROUPS. FINNALY, FREEDOM, PEACE AND HUMAN RIGHT = YES! TERROR, VIOLENCE AND FUNAMENTALISTS IN POWER = NO!

It is to your shame that you think you are unique.
I DON'T THINK SO

I understand very well the criticism Bundism had of Zionism. Zionism was not seen as any form of solution to anti-Semitism. CORRECT, IT IS ONLY THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF SUCH A SOLUTION.

It advocated running away from it and in the process it legitimized everything the anti-Semites said and worse.
MORE FALSE THAN TRUE.
THAT MIGHT HAPPEN, BUT NOT BECAUSE OF ZIONISM. ANTI-SEMITES DIDN'T NEED ZIONISM TO GATHER A LOT OF SUPPORT. SOME ATNI-SEMITES AND ZIONISTs WOULD AGREE ABOUT CERTAIN ABNORMALITIES OF JEWISH EXISTANCE IN MODERN SOCIETY. ANTI-SEMITES WOULD ELIMINATE JUDAISM TO SOLVE IT WHERE AS ZIONISTS WOULD REVIVE JEWISH LIFE BY RENEWING IT BASED ON MODERN PRINCIPLES. THE FIGHT AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM IS NOT DESTAINED JUST FOR JEWS, BUT EVERY ONE WHO IS NOT A RACIST. ZIONISTS PREFFERED STAYING ALIVE AND REBUILDING A NATION FAR AWAY FROM EUROPE, SO THAT NOW YOU AND YOU'R SIMILARS COULD WRITE ALL THOSE NONSENCE IN YOUR BLOGS, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU KNOW YOU'LL HAVE A PLACE TO GO, IN CASE YOU FAIL IN ELIMINATING ANTI-SEMITISM IN GREAT BRITIAN. BTW, I THINK IT'S HONORABLE YOU FIGHT AGAINST IT, AND I DON'T ENVY ANYONE WHO STUCK THEIR HEAD BETWEEN BNR AND ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS, BUT AGAIN, THERE ARE THOSE WHO MAKE NOISE AND THOSE WHO DO THE WORK. THERE NEVER WAS A CURE FOR ANTI-SEMITISM, AND ALONG ALL OF ITS NUMEROUS FAULTS, ISRAEL IS THE BEST ANSWER YET.

ארז said...

Hence why the weaponry for the ghetto revolt came primarily via the Bund.
LIE AND FALSE. THE BIGGEST WEAPONARY BELONGED TO THE Z.Z.W, AND DEFINITELY NOT FROM THE BUND. THE WEAPONARY OF THE Z.O.B WAS UNIFIED AND NOT SEPEARTE BETWEEN BUND AND NON-BUND. THE Z.O.B CONNECTED SECRETLY WITH BOTH THE A.K. AND THE A.L. .LEFTIST A.L HELPED AS MUCH AS THEY COULD – WHICH WASN'T MUCH. A.K. COULD HELP MUCH MORE, BUT DIDN'T WANT. THE MAJORITY OF THE Z.O.B WEAPONARY CAME FROM SELF PRODUCTION, AND BOUGHT FROM JEWISH AND POLISH CRIMINALS. LATER ON, FROM INJURED GERMANS.

Yes, in view of Zionism's record, the Bund was reluctant to work with the Zionist parties. That much is self evident. But only left-PZ was able to obtain arms because it was the only Zionist group, apart from the Revisionists, to cultivate links with non-Jewish socialists. FALSE, EXPLAINED ABOVE. Z.O.B REPRESENTITIVES TO THE POLES BEFORE THE REBELLION WERE ARIE VILNER AND IZCHAK ZUCKERMAN
, 'HASHOMER HATSAIR' AND 'DROR' MEMBERS.
The regrets of Anielwicz were not simply about education minus military training. What he felt was that the whole of the Zionist activity, the kibbutzim in Poland, the voluntarism as the Bund termed it or scabbing, replacing Polish workers by Zionists on the farms, was irrelevant.
NARROW MINDNESS. WITHOUT EDUCATION THERE WOULD BE NO Z.O.B. THOSE WHO MADE ALIYA SAVED THEIR LIVES.

My figures on Zionist participation in the Judenrat were derived from Isaiah Trunk, Table 2 page 34. Admittedly not a scientific study, but of those who responded over 77% of those who participated in the Judenrat were Zionists
QUESTION IS WHAT IS A ZIONIST ? IF YOU REMOVE P A S T MEMBERS OF ZIONIST MOVEMENTS THE NUMBERS ARE LOWER. I ALREADY EXPLAINED THE NAZI INTEREST IN MANIPULATING ZIONISM TO THEIR OWN CAUSE BY PROMISING "IMMEGRATION". IF YOU FOCUS ON LEFT WING ZIONISTS, THE NUMBERS ARE EXTREMLY LOW, BUT IT IS STILL SHAMEFULL. THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN IS HARDCORE ZIONISTS – ACTIVE CHALUTZIM, WHO LED JEWISH RESISTANCE GROUPS. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007224 for example.
That is one of the main themes of the GFH museum.

But my main argument is with the Zionist leadership outside Palestine which consciously sought to block emigration to any country but Palestine. And it was successful in this too. A LIE. IN EVIAN, 1938, NO COUNTRY AGREED TO SAVE JEWISH REFUGEES. YOU GRANT ZIONISTS MUCH MORE POWER THAN THEY EVER HAD AT THE TIME.

My own experience in fighting fascism in Britain, the National Front and BNP, was that Zionist youth were wholly absent from the battles we had.
PITTY

But the fact that the Jewish State didn't have the courage to send just one OFFICIAL representative to his funeral, which the President of Poland attended, speaks volumes.
RIGHT ABOUT THAT.

You say you have a country. So do I - it's called Great Britain! But it's one where I and others like me are in opposition to the ruling class and their hangers-on.
GOOD LUCK! NOT BEING CYNICAL HERE.HERITAGE INCLUDES OCCUPATION OF 25% OF THE ENTIRE WORLD, AND THE ORIGIN OF CAPITALISM. WHAT REPENTS FOR THAT ?

ארז said...

LAST ONE, I PROMISE
But let me put it to you and your comrades in Lochamei Hagetaot quite explicitly and clearly. YOU DON'T HAVE THE "RATING". MY COMRADES DON'T KNOW YOU. PROBABLY NEVER WILL. I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF.

You are a kibbutz that is a ghetto-fighters kibbutz. Whether all those in the Kibbutz merit that title I doubt but in any case it is not relevant.
OF COURSE NOT. IT IS IN THE NAME OF GHETTO FIGHTERS WHO DIED, ONLY A PORTION OF PEOPLE SURVIVED GHETTO FIGHTS. DROR MEMBERS WHO SURVIVED, FOUNDED THIS KIBBUTZ, TOGETHER WITH JEWISH PARTISANS AND OTHER SURVIVORS.

Your kibbutz is, from what I recall, a Hashomer kibbutz.
FALSE, DROR – HAKIBBUTZ HAMEUCHAD.
A kibbutz of what was once the Zionist left. A left that in 1949 achieved the 2nd highest no. of votes after Mapai. And now? It is doubtful if Mapam could get more than 1 seat after the next election.
TRUE. ZIONIST LEFT SITUATION IN ISRAEL IS TRAGIC.

Or maybe you do not recognise the cries of 'death to the Arabs'. You are so intoxicated by Jewish chauvinism that you don't understand what it means when Arab towns and villages are threatened with destruction because they are unrecognised, as are 50% of Israeli villages. Arabs, present-absentees, people born in the land are strangers and outcasts in it yet you and Yad Vashem, who have some old and unfathomable differences between yourselves, say absolutely nothing.
YOU ARE JUST BEING STUPID.
ARAB YOUTH VISIT LOCHAMEI HAGETAOT'S HUMANISTIC CENTER, INCLUDING FREE DIALOGUE WITH JEWISH YOUTH.

ARAB YOUTH ARE ALSO DEAR MEMBERS OF MY MOVEMENT – HANOAR HAOVED VEHALOMED. WE ARE ZIONIST-SOCIALIST. WE FIGHT FOR EQUALITY BY CONSTRUCTIVE WAYS, NOT JUST RIGHTEOUS SPEECHES.

That is the real disgrace. Not whether or not the Bund commanded 70 or 80% of the Polish Jewish vote and whether the Zionists were a tiny minority or even smaller.
THE BUND, WISELY, COLLECTED A LOT OF VOTES FROM AGUDA'S FOLLOWERS BECAUSE OF IT'S PROMISE TO SECURE SHABBAT AS A REST-DAY FOR JEWS. THE VOTES ARE HARDLY AN EVIDENCE OF TRUE SUPPORT. CHALUTZIM (NOT JUST ZIONISTS) WERE A TINY MINORITY OF ACTIVISTS WHO HAVE HAD A LOT OF INFLUENCE.

Not once have the fighters represented in your kibbutz ever spoken out against the Liebermans or indeed when Yitzhak Shamir, whose organisation Lehi proposed a military pact with Nazi Germany, became Prime Minister. Yes a Nazi supporting Zionist as PM of Israel. LOCHAMEI HAGEATOT MUSEUM SPOKE ONLY ONCE, AGAINST THE SHILUMIM AGREEMENT WITH WESTERN-GERMANY.
IS TS BASICALLY NOT A POLITICAL INSTITUTE BUT AN EDUCATIONAL ONE. WE EDUCATE AGAINST ALL KINDS OF RACISM, INCLUDING LIEBERMAN'S, WE JUST DON'T SHOUT ABOUT IT IN THE HEADLINES.
I do indeed detest the racism and chauvinism of Zionism and its 'Jewish' State. The same state that actively condoned the murder of Jewish anti-fascists in Argentina by a Junta Israel did good business with. HALF TRUE, IT SEEMS LIKE THE JUNTA MURDERED ONLY JEWS FROM WHAT YOU WRITE. WITH THOSE CONNECTIONS ISRAEL WAS ABLE TO FREE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE, FAR MORE PEOPLE THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY, BUT EVEN SO, YOUR POINT IS WELL MADE.

Netanyahu has been in the forefront of this chauvinism and racism. He is quite clear about making the West Bank Arabrein. So in reference to another post of yours I don't treat him with any normal civility and consider he lied over Marek and a thousand and one other things too.
NONSENSE. NETANYAHU IS MORE THAN PROBLEMATIC, WEST BANK ARABREIN IS JUST ANTISEMITIC FANTASY.AGAIN, THERE IS NO POINT IN CATCHING POLITICIANS WITH A LIE, OR GETTING EMOTIONAL. THIS IS HOW THEY MAKE THEIR LIVING. NETANYAHU, ABOVE ALL, IS A CAPITALIST. HE DOESN'T REALLY CARE ABOUT JEWS NOR ABOUT ARABS. NOT ABOUT THE WEST BANK, BUT ABOUT FINANCIAL BANKS. TO UNDERSTAND HIS ACTIONS, THE BEST WAY IS JUST TO FOLLOW THE MONEY.

demize! said...

As I am replying late to this discussion, I can only say that I find it curious one would be told not to comment in rebuttal on ones own blog, and then be barraged with more commentary. I think it is quite telling. Tony didn't mention the Zionist groups that are making common cause with todays English Fascists. He writes about it all the time so I can only surmise he was being brief or just didn't want to take it further.