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Friday, 2 May 2008

Gilad Atzmon Joins with Anthony Julius to Attack Jewish Anti-Zionists

There are a few people who have illusions that the anti-Semitic jazz player and ex-Israeli, Gilad Atzmon is an anti-Zionist. This confusion is, of course, understandable, because Atzmon purports to support the Palestinians. But supporting the Palestinians in the abstract doesn’t make one an anti-Zionist. It is quite possible to hold contradictory ideas in one’s head and to support a Jewish ‘return’ to Israel to establish a Jewish State whilst deprecating what they did when they got there.
Indeed there are many liberal Zionists who will weep tears of pity at the fate of the Palestinians whilst saying that it was nonetheless inevitable. Indeed there are many people who support the existence of the Israeli State whilst also supporting the Palestinians. Tony Benn, for example, supports an Israeli State within 1967 borders. So too does Norman Finkelstein.

Anthony Julius was the solicitor to Princess Diana, as well as Deborah Lipstadt in the libel trial between David Irving and Penguin Books. He is also a dedicated Zionist and when the Association of University Teachers first passed a motion supporting an Academic Boycott against Haifa and Bar-Ilan Universities, it was Julius who publicly threatened to sue the AUT for defamation. But on this too he shares a lot in common with Atzmon who has publicly derided an Academic Boycott as ‘book burning’.
Anthony Julius has recently written a long 2 part article Jewish Anti-Zionism Unravelled part one: and part 2 which attempts to take to task ‘contemporary Jewish anti-Zionism’, which he argues is ‘to be interpreted as occupying a position, or a set of positions, within a new Jewish politics.’

What concerns Julius is that Jewish anti-Zionism, which had all but died out after the Holocaust, has been given a new lease of life in the wake of Israel’s 1967 War of Expansion. As Julius reminds us ‘antipathy to Zionism was one of the few positions (according to Michael B. Oren) around which, in the early 1900s, most of American Jewry could rally.’
Despite his academic pretensions, Julius is quite a simple fellow and does little to hide his real concerns. ‘This new Jewish anti-Zionism inaugurates a return for many Jews to some kind of Jewish identity. They no longer seek, as with previous generations, to relieve themselves of the burden of their Jewish origins; rather, they reassume the burden, in order further to burden their fellow Jews.’
And this is Julius’s main complaint. Instead of forsaking being Jewish, their anti-Zionism has become a mainstay of Jewish identity. Israel says it speaks out on behalf of Jews wherever they live in the world, and these people, have the chutzpah to object! Surprise surprise, this is also a concern of Gilad Atzmon. It’s no wonder that Atzmon has written what he believes is a critique of Julius’s article, but in the process finds himself in agreement with most of what he writes. who has written a favourable response Anthony Julius and a journey to the dark Zionist world .
‘Thus, it is rather depressing to admit that his deconstruction of some large sectors of the Jewish political and ideological left is more than valid. As bizarre as it may sound, in places his criticism of his dissident anti-Zionists brothers and sisters is not far at all from the discomfort expressed rather often by Palestinians and Palestinian solidarity activists concerning Jewish anti-Zionism.’
Leaving aside Atzmon’s role in speaking on behalf of Palestinians and Palestinian solidarity activists, the qualifications for which are not obvious, what Atzmon is once again doing is making it clear that in any political conflict between anti-Zionist and Zionist Jews, he stands full square with the latter.
This allows Atzmon to engage in his favourite trait of Jew-baiting. Echoing Julius’s criticisms of Independent Jewish Voices, a particular hate of both Julius and Atzmon, the latter asks queries what is meant by a secular Jewish identity: ‘what is it that he refers to? Is it his racial belonging? Is it biological determinism in play? Is it the ethnic identity or is it again the collective belief in the comforting qualities of chicken soup?’ Unsurprisingly, the one attribute that Atzmon doesn’t refer to is a political identity, because he is obsessed with the question of race (and chicken soup!).
What Julius calls ‘contentless "Jewishness"’ is for Atzmon ‘a fundamental lack of integrity within the Jewish left discourse,’. Julius’s complaint is that ‘Many anti-Zionist Jews do not consider themselves bound by an obligation of loyalty to any Jewish project. Indeed, they are not drawn to any such enterprises'; by which he means Zionist projects. For Julius, being an anti-Zionist Jew is merely denial of the existing, mainstream identity, form without substance. Atzmon unsurprisingly racialises this question: ‘what does he mean by Jewish identity? Who are the Jews, are they a racial group? Are they a cultural group?’ This is from the person who declares that he never mentions race in all his writings! (‘in the entirety of my work there is not a single reference whatsoever to race.’
What Atzmon can’t, provide an answer to, is the most obvious of all questions, viz. why Julius, who probably charges in an hour what a person on the dole gets in a month, should spend many precious hours dissecting Jewish anti-Zionism. The answer, of course is very obvious. It was the prominence of Jewish activists in the Boycott of Israel movement. Julius singles out ‘A group describing itself as "Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods" [which] writes [that]"the continuing occupation and exploitation of Palestinian land is a major obstacle to peace for Israelis and Arabs alike which has global implications for world peace" He isn’t alone in this. The Jewish Chronicle (22.6.07.) reported that at a meeting of the Board of Deputies of British Jews ‘deputies also gave vent to their anger – particularly at Jews who supported the move (for boycott).’
But to Atzmon, all activists from J-Big were doing was to support Zionism! ‘Jews cannot criticise Zionism in the name of their ethnic belonging because such an act is in itself an approval of Zionism.’ (‘Not In My Name’ - An analysis of Jewish righteousness’).
But in his final section, entitled (what else!) ‘The Crypto-Zionist’s Role’ Atzmon provides an answer to his question. And no prizes for the fact that it concerns himself! He believes that ‘Apparently the British Zionist academic has some Judeocentric conspiratorial expectations from his fellow dissident brothers. He would like to see them fighting the anti-Semites in the Palestinian solidarity discourse.’ So it’s not Boycott, or criticism of Israel that concerns Julius. It’s a conspiracy (naturally) anti-Semites like Atzmon!

But the difference between Julius and Atzmon is that the former is a relatively intelligent Zionist whereas Atzmon, despite the hundreds of thousands of words that he sprays around the net, is at bottom a stupid man who has convinced himself of his brilliance. Lacking the ability to present his ideas simply he dresses them up in dense and impenetrable language, full of sound and fury signifying nothing. But even if Atzmon believes that Jewish supporters of a Boycott are Zionist, Julius is under no illusions:
‘It was noted in the context of the boycott agitations, not least because the boycotters themselves loudly insisted upon it, that the boycott cause had Jewish supporters. Though not advancing fresh arguments in favour of a boycott, these Jews made two distinctive contributions to the boycott campaign. First, they maintained that as Jews they were under a moral duty to campaign for a boycott. Their Jewish conscience required them, they claimed, to side with Israel’s enemies. Second, they gave cover to non-Jewish boycotters accused of antisemitism.’
And in a lengthy footnote he cites Ghada Karmi’s "Weapon of the weak," Ha’aretz, 14 July 2007:
"the imputation of antisemitism is a red herring, as so often is the case when Israel is criticized, and its aim, as always, is to deflect criticism. In the case of the British boycott committee, it is particularly inapt, since most of the members are Jewish"
And that is correct. At UNISON’s annual conference last year, I spoke, quite deliberately, as a Jewish anti-Zionist. It was agreed that I would speak third as it was inevitable that the main argument of the opponents of boycott would be ‘anti-Semitism’. The argument I made was quite simple. Even Atzmon should be able to understand it. Jews of all people should understand the iniquities of racism and if non-Jews opposed racism perpetrated by and in the name of Jews then that could hardly be considered anti-Semitism, without devaluing the meaning of the latter. Suffice to say the Zionists had no answer to this since the usual Nazi jibe of ‘self-hater’ might not have gone down well with delegates!
As Julius complains ‘How could these non-Jews be antisemitic, when Jews took their line too? Antisemitism, they intimated, ceases to be antisemitic when adopted by a Jew. These absurd, ignominious positions attracted only a few Jews, though they were much exploited by the boycott movement.’
And this is a real problem for the Zionists. When they are opposed by Jews in the name of anti-racism, how is it possible to label their opponents anti-Semitic? Of course this is of no concern to Atzmon, for whom anti-Semitism doesn’t exist: "Because ‘antisemite’ is an empty signifier, no one actually can be an antisemite and this includes me of course."
And we can see, incidentally, the damage that Atzmon does to the Palestinian cause when Julius speaks of Atzmon’s ‘incontinent, malicious verbalising, which has no connection to real thought’ (and on this it is hard to disagree!) whilst associating it falsely with anti-Zionism and support for the Palestinians. Atzmon’s contribution ‘is of significance only because Atzmon nonetheless continues to be admired in anti-Zionist circles.’ Fortunately this is wishful thinking. It is difficult to find any anti-Zionists who ‘admire’ Atzmon.
Atzmon offers what passes for an analysis of anti-Zionism. ‘Though pre WWII Jewish anti-Zionism had been largely politically orchestrated and ideologically orientated, contemporary anti-Zionism and Jewish anti-Zionism in particular is not at all politically leaning.’ From which one can only conclude that the Boycott campaign, letters such as that which appeared in the Guardian 30.4.08. are not political! Such is the gibberish one has come to expect of the anti-Semitic supporters of the Palestinians. Atzmon chooses to puff up his own credentials, pleading that
‘If Julius would take a deep breath and view the list of ‘contemporary’ voices he himself had chosen to quote within his study (me included), he would notice that none of them are political activists. Neither Jacqueline Rose nor Tony Judt nor Ilan Pappe nor Oren Ben-Dor, nor Uri Davis nor myself are operating as politicians or within political cells. We all act as humanists, academics and artists.’
Well as another individual who was quoted by Julius, the idea that I am a politician is as ludicrous as the suggestion I am not a political activist. But such subtleties elude Atzmon. And none of the above, apart from the hapless Ben-Dor, would touch Atzmon with a bargepole. Pappe, Uri Davies, Jacqueline Rose and Tony Judt are political activist as well as humanists. And none of them would see any contradiction between being Jewish and supporting the Palestinians.
Apart from one howler about the death of Independent Jewish Voices (strange they’ve only just held a meeting on the siege of Gaza!) Atzmon finds himself in complete agreement with Julius on any secular Jewish identity. ‘First’ he proclaims ‘there is NO "Jewish tradition of universal freedoms’ and he follows this up by arguing that those Jews who did stand in this tradition ‘were brutally expelled and ostracised by their brothers.’ without realising that they were still Jewish and that vilification from the majority doesn’t undermine the validity of minority identities.

Faithful to his habit of contradicting himself within the same article, we are told about the universalism he decries that ‘As bizarre as it may sound, once again we notice that Jewish universalism appears to operate as a maintenance project of Jewish chauvinism and tribalism.

And when Julius parodies Jewish anti-Zionism by proclaiming that ‘It must be the Jewish quality to have no qualities at all’ Atzmon responds, not surprisingly, that ‘It is very sad to admit, but Julius has a point here.’ But where he gets it wrong, and this is the clue to all that is wrong with Atzmon’s analysis, is when he says that ‘It is rather shocking to admit that Zionist and Palestinian criticism of Jewish anti-Zionism is almost similar.’ No what is shocking is that someone who calls himself an anti-Zionist ends up agreeing with Zionist propagandists! But once again Atzmon flatters to deceive (himself). There is no Palestinian critique of Jewish anti-Zionism that is remotely similar to that of the Zionists. Atzmon once again is guilty of substituting himself for the Palestinians.
In a final section, entitled ‘The Moralizer’ Atzmon positively falls over himself in his eagerness to applaud the fact that ‘Julius is ready to pour a rain of contempt over his dissident brothers.’ Where Julius speaks of Jewish anti-Zionists being ‘enfolded in self-admiration.’ Atzmon responds that ‘The real meaning of secularism within the Jewish tribal left discourse means the replacement of ‘God-loving’ with ‘self-loving’.
Naturally Atzmon endorses what he perceives as Julius’s message: ‘It is very clear that as far as Julius is concerned, anti-Zionist Jews are not exactly ordinary human beings. They are primarily Jews and must serve their tribal interests first.’

And again:
‘Julius correctly suggests that anti-Zionist Jews fall into contradiction when they hold that while dispersion is good for the Jews, it is bad for the Palestinians, and when they demand of the Jews that they disavow ‘nationalism,’ while valuing the Palestinians’ "continuing struggle for justice;" Julius obviously hit here on some severe level of lack of integrity within the Jewish left discourse.’
The above is nothing less than a full-scale endorsement of an oft-repeated Zionist criticism that those who support a Palestinian state are being disingenuous when they deny the same right to ‘the Jews’. But to equate Jews, wherever they live, with the Palestinian nation, demonstrates above all that Atzmon’s ‘anti-Zionism’ is a self-serving myth. If Atzmon believes that Jews living outside Israel are dispersed and equivalent to the Palestinian refugees then his support for the Palestinians is a shallow exercise in hypocrisy. It has nothing to do with a 'lack of integrity’. Both agree on one thing. Being an anti-Zionist Jew is an exercise in hypocrisy. Is it any wonder that Atzmon ends up agreeing with Julius’s critique of Jewish anti-Zionism.
‘In short, it seems as if Julius manages to establish a profound criticism of Jewish anti-Zionism. Seemingly, Jewish anti-Zionism is inconsistent to the bone. Due to the impossibility to bridge the gap between the tribal and the universal, Jewish anti-Zionism is doomed to fall either into inconsistency or lack of integrity.’
Atzmon argues that it is impossible to bridge the gap between what he calls the tribal, in fact the nationalist Jewish project Zionism, and universalism. That is of course true, but who has argued that they should be reconciled? It’s not so much that there is an inconsistency between the two, rather that they are polar opposites. The task of anti-Zionism is not to bridge the gap but to weaken the foundations of Zionism. The only lack of integrity, as well as intelligence, is that of Atzmon in managing, once again, to end up agreeing with the Zionist analysis of its opponents whilst pretending to be an anti-Zionist himself.
Is it any wonder that Atzmon concludes that ‘Zionism is a proud tribal project, it gives a new dynamic contemporary meaning to Jewish existence. As much as I do not agree with Julius’s prime agenda, I tend to agree with many points raised by him. Jewish anti-Zionism is a futile project.’ That Atzmon finds anti-Zionism, and therefore support for the Palestinians a ‘futile project’ is no surprise to many of us who have wondered what the goal of the new anti-Semites is.
Tony Greenstein


Master McGrath said...

Well just goes to show that Atzmon loves the idea of being considered a philosopher without doing the hard graft that serious intellectuals have to put in to be seriously acknowledged as universally aware enough to earn the tile 'philosopher'.

Had he ever done any contemporary reading on sociology he would have realised that the concept of 'ethnicity' arose because there was a problem in resolving group identities to merely religious, political or racial common ground. Race itself now a thoroughly discredited idea in science.

To presume that the Jewish identity must be based on notions of race (and thereby racial superiority) is to admit to either being an ignorant fool and/or in total agreement with 19th century white racist thinking- the kind of stuff that facilitated all manner of ethnic cleansing and genocide from the justification of the New World to the cattle trucks bound for Auschwitz.

So yet again, we the Forest Gump of crypto-Zionism forgetting to close the curtains whilst he goosesteps around his living room.

Master McGrath said...

Sorry, that was a bit unfair... on Forest Gump, who was after all a rather benign and totally honest character.

Anonymous said...

Mony'le i know you have a crush on this saxy man but really you must stop with the obsession, pouring over every single word of his as if he were Moses himself...People will start to think you are total Tukhes lecher!!!

joe90 said...

...nor myself are operating as politicians or within political cells. We all act as humanists, academics and artists.’
- Says the atzmon-ness of gilad-ism.

This is the philospher-clown who mentions Athens in his latest (f)article, but can't even recall one of its most famous philospher's famous definition of a human being, viz -
'A human being is a political animal'
(the Stagirian himself, Aristotle)

At a very basic level, it is an impossibility that any human cannot be political - in much the same way it is virtually impossible for humans to stop being 'symbolic', using signs and symbols.

Great article TG!

Master McGrath said...

Aye, it would seem that even the Enlightenment has yet to arrive for Gelatinous & Rizzible and their egocentric worldview.

As I'm sure Adam Smith would have said under his breath "Whit an erse ae a laddie!"

Anonymous said...
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joe90 said...

Just to spell it out master macgrath,
atzmon-rizzo want Palestinians to join with them in their tribal antisemitism, in tribal solidarity, in order support the zionist boycott fellow Palestinians.

Antisemitism only has one outlet for activists and activism - support for zionists (most of whom aren't Jewish) and the Israeli Government.

rizzo-atzmon don't believe zionist lies about their Palestinian victims, but do believe zionist lies about their Jewish victims.
They believe zionist claims that Israel is a 'Jewish state', just for instance.

Even if Jewish individuals don't support the Israeli Government, or even live there- this doesn't matter. All Jewish People are to be collectively blamed/punished because atzmon-rizzo believe the lies of the Israeli Government.

Palestinians, therefore, must join in solidarity with atzmon-rizzo in order to boycott and punish all Jews, especially those Jews who are anti-zionist, and therefore who give the lie to both Israelizionist propaganda and atzmon and rizzos.

Got that?

all the best!

mm did you see the great election result!
brilliant stuff!
The anti-war anti-imperialists wipe the floor with the Brits
Stunning win for SNP in council by-election
SNP News

Also -
Highest-ever SNP poll rating after year in power
SNP News

Oh, aye, there was some sort a' stuchie aboot the cultural backwater of the English capital - a' don't pay much attention to politically regressive phenomena much when it disne matter who ye vote fir, ye always get the same policies/Boris's.

Master McGrath said...

Well ah wisnae totally impressed wae the "big business backing" and the greenbelt golfcourse. But aw in aw um no ashamed ae haven voted them in, haen risked makin masel look a right eejit by lobbyin e'er anarchists ae dae the same.

Am no a great optomist aboot revolution happenin soon. So, as they say "pish wae the dick ye huv!"

Besides, Sillars hud many a cuppa and biscuit aff ma granny!

Wis the only the 2nd time I voted in my life anaw!

But, shame they cannae quite yit persuade workin class Glesca that NewLabour wiz the death ae mainstream socialism though.

Ne'er mind: wan day the penny'll drap!

Jews-R-Us said...
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Anonymous said...

Thanks Daviv for demonstrating the sort of racist crap we oppose.

I actually preferred it when Rizzo was openly linking to White Power and holocaust deniers.

But I guess this shows that her racist agenda hasn't changed just her M.O.

joe90 said...

...nor myself are operating as politicians or within political cells. We all act as humanists, academics and artists.’
- Says the gilad-ness of atzmon-ism.

I see typhoid mary is giving away free tips on how to operate politically on the internet, individually and in cells - which gilad thinks is 'brilliant'.
Another day, another contradiction by atzmon - what's new?

Laughingly mary calls her article 'censorship and the free press' - this is someone who can't and won't answer a simple question about her using the Palestine solidarity campaign to disseminate neo-nazi propapaganda.

Don't look for any references to atzmon-rizzo's recent attempts to infect IndyMedia UK with their antisemitic plague virus.

Typhoid mary recruits John Pilger, and even Noam Chomsky (whom she has problems with, she once said, presumably because he's Jewish) into her campaign to clean up the internet - but not IndyMedia UK.

Mary spent so much time and energy once, bravely championing Roy Bard at IndyMedia UK, who anti-democratically forced IndyMedia UK to publish an antisemitic article of atzmon's blaming Hitler's victims for the crimes of the Nazis (which typhoid mary agrees with).

As usual, mary continues to misrepresent why people who care about Palestinian solidarity find her atisemitism and neo-nazi propaganda counter-productive and obnoxious.

According to mary's latest crud and her notions of 'democracy', there should be plenty of room in the Palestine Solidarity movement for nazis, zionists, imperialists and lovers of George Bush and his neo-cons.
Sorry 'pissonpalestine' - there isn't any place for these sorts.

According to mary's airy-fairy definition of free-speech, because I object to neo-nazis and antisemites exploiting Palestinian suffering then that makes me some kind censor and arbiter of truth. Absolutely, guilty as charged.
No antisemitism and no neo-nazis in the PSM!

In all her professions of open-ness and democracy, mary has yet to even hint that antisemitism and neo-nazism have no place in the Palestine solidarity campaign.
Such is mary's idea of democracy, freedom and open-ness.

Go and join the Italian bnp - I couldn't care less what rizzo does, just as long as she isn't allowed to bring her racist filth into the PSM.

Master McGrath said...

Hmmm, how can you have a "solidarity movement" of autonomous individuals and no politics???

A movement by definition equals affinity and unity and is thereby political.

These people are utter morons.

In fact it all whiffs a bit of Thatcher/Tebbit: "there is no such thing as society, only individuals" and Jellied Atzmon has even verbatim parroted the extreme right's mainstay "there is no such thing as left and right anymore", an attempt to misdirect people away from their extreme right position by employing the Ostrich Maneuver.

Well considering Chomsky's exercise in putting his money where his mouth was declaring that a Holocaust denier should be allowed to publish not that he agreed or endorsed Holocaust denial, I can't see where Merry Rissole is going with it?

That Tony twatted her cesspit because of personal defamation?

So now crime is a human right??? What next "Free Ian Huntley!"? "Recidivists against Justice"?

There is of course a certain realism in accepting that left/right dichotomy exists, and to get things done this has to be factored into strategy.

The problem with Atzmon & Rizzo is that their racism is at odds with political movement that seeks to better situation for a non-White ethnic group.

Claiming censorship is as ridiculous as complaining that Rizzo's hero David Duke never gets published in The Voice or invited to speak at Black Panther Party meetings.

If there is ever to be a role for racists in a movement against racism (Zionism being a substantially racist ideology), I can only hope it will be as losers.

The only negotiation with Nazis is the terms of their surrender.

Master McGrath said...

And just to clarify that:

Do I think racists should be persecuted?

No. But I think they should be brought to book when their ideology manifests itself into real damage to to others.

Do I think racists should be silenced?

No. But I think they should be denied a voice WITHIN anti-racist structures and thet moste defintely should be exposed and rejected when they try rehabilitate racism in the name of anti-racism.

And the I believe the same applies to anti-racists. I do not seek a platform within the BNP, UKIP, the KKK.

I do not try to pass myself off as a racist.

I do not pretend to have a right of membership to racist structures.

I do not smear racist opinion leaders because they refuse to accept my politics- I denounce them as a racists.

The word gatekeeper is just code for "someone principled enough to tell right wing people to stay the fuck away from the Left."

joe90 said...

Oh, another initiative but whatever happened to -
Petition No.1
Petition No.2

I wonder how many bona fide Palestinian organisations have asked these two, to undertake this new 'initiative' on their behalf?
I'll guess it's 0.

...their new Palestine Think Tank
- How appropriate that the right-wing term 'think tank' should be adopted by these two know-nothing ego-centric jew-baiting dolts.

Master McGrath said...


I don't know about Tony but I'm glad to leave this hilarious piece of crap up.

He who laughs last...

Rachel said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Master McGrath said...

Having seen briefly this new 'septic tank', I can only assure you that any tears you see round here are tears of uncontrollable laughter.

'Mary's Choice' (similar to Sophie's? Must be; she is after all a living martyr... for NeoNazism) and her wittering on about the therapeutic use of MDMA for PTSD at a level of ignorance that would make the average taxi driver seem like a pre-eminent guru. "but it's Ecstasy what does make em crackers innit!"

Top marks for the gratuitous bandying around psychopharamacology jargon with all the bliss of a clueless child waving around a handgun, "look at me! look what I have got! shiny!"

What's next 'Rizzo's dancing lessons for cats'?

It's like some sketch from the 'Fast Show'.

Rachel said...

If it's cats you're interested in, you should have said so! I have just the site for you:

Does your cat look like Adolf Hitler? Do you wake up in a cold sweat every night wondering if he's going to up and invade Poland? Does he keep putting his right paw in the air while making a noise that sounds suspiciously like "Sieg Miaow"? If so, this is the website for you.

Master McGrath said...

Hahahaha! Kitler.

Now if only Rizzo & Atzmon could be that funny and not pair of "straightmen"

Rachel said...

Glad you enjoyed it. There's lots of other hilarious links where that one came from.....But... sit down....I found the Feline Fascists here
and you perhaps realise who is behind Artie Fishel?

yes, Atzmon is in fact that funny and not a 'straightman' :) that is mainly where he and moaning Tony, the bore, part company.

joe90 said...

Rachel the oracle of all that's funny and unfunny, initially opined -
You'll delete this to save face, but just know something...everyone is laughing at you.

But then managed to contradict herself by complaining -
...moaning Tony, the bore...

So which is it rachel,
you are in stitches, or you are bored, or don't you know?

Master McGrath said...

Wow! It's poor enough to congratulate your own jokes. But it's sinking even lower to be a sock puppet self-admirer and then claim some sort of comedic genius by having linked to something.

The only funny thing about Atzmon is his ridiculous charlatan posturing as a philosopher.

joe90 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
joe90 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
joe90 said...

Too true mm!
The serious stuff is funny,
and the funny stuff seriously isn't.

The self-styled 'think tank' puts me in mind of Aristophanes mickey-taking of Socrates whom he placed in a 'Thinkery' in his play,
'The Clouds'

for some seriously funny stuff that is serious, try -
'Get Your War On'

The graphics are really at the cutting edge of IT!

And for seriously funny stuff that's really silly, but shot through with real wit and verve, try Glasgow's very own -
'The Daily Mash'

Their slogan - "It's news to us!"
You may even recognise their resident astrologer, Mystic Bob.

It's hard to believe but according to TDM -

The Daily Mash also have their own Agony Aunt, and as Aunts go, is actually funny as well, wouldn't you know, funnily enough.

all the best azsvas!

just to let azsvas know,
that my comments don't appear properly formatted whenever links are used - though this doesn't happen all the time, just sometimes.
I've had to un-format my links, and just copy and paste addresses unvarnished into my comment.

Joe90 said...

Then again, most of my comments are deleted by my only friend in the world, Tony Greenstein. They aren't at all funny, I have to admit. I'm just a sad old Scot nearing the end of his existence and it hurts like mad. Please stop deleting me, Tony, you're all I've got. I've even left my family kilt to you in my will, assuming you don't nick it before I kick the bucket.

Master McGrath said...

wow, I wonder what sad bastard is pretending to be Joe90...

Master McGrath said...

By the way, most of the kilt-wearing Scots were ethnically cleansed in the 19th century. But being such a shit hot ethnographer and historian you already knew that...

But I guess you being sad racist moron means you can't help grasping for stereotypes and mocking ethnicity.

That anyone listens to your shit without utter contempt makes you a pied piper of idiots.

Anonymous said...

@ the Real Joe90:

Top site; Mungo is hilarious!

joe90 said...

I spend my life writing crap for Tony's site, and the one time I make a sincere comment about my life, my situation and my fears for my family kilt, and Master mcGrath insults me? This is worse than being deleted by Tony. Is it because I am a Goy that I get slapped in the face like this? And Tony told me he considered me an honorary Jew as well as an honorary unemployed worker. We were planning to do christmas parties together for the children of the poor, complete with carols by bagpipe. And now there's nothing left for me but haggis and more haggis. Shame on you, McGrath.

joe90 said...

I wonder what sad bastard is pretending to be Joe90...
- It's the only way anybody is ever going to pay any attention to them.

What's the sincerest form of flattery again?

And anyway, there is no way these dregs can deal with the arguments and articles on AZaAS because they're correct - also these dregs aren't in the same league as TG when it it comes to the academic/scholarly/intellectual grasp of the topics in hand.

There is nothing else left for these scum to do except make a nuisance of themselves, act childish, bawl, wail, scream...nothing to add except to prove they have nothing to add and are, therefore, a waste of space.

I forgot to mention another good website - which comes recommended by none other than The Editors at the brilliant MediaLens who descibe it in their links page
One of the best satirical web sites on the planet.
It is -
'Welcome to The Whitehouse'


Master McGrath said...

Fake Joe90: more racism... you are doing great job of proving us right about Rizzian-Atzmonites.

Funny how the kind of person who likes to try and assert that left-right polarity is defunct tends to be a raving racist with the IQ of a Jack Russell.

And again, it goes to show what kind of person wallows in the Rizzo/Atzmon shitpit... if this isn't the "outstanding personality" himself.

I am however a tad disappointed in the limited scope of your Jock bashing though. Straight out of 'Racism for Dummies'.

But I guess we shouldn't expect more than a veneer of research so gossamer thin you can spit through it... after all theses are the people who look to Rizzo for guidance on everything from socio-ethnography, politcial history to her Olympian insight into psychopharmacology.

Makes your BOG-standard doomsday cult look pretty reasonable.

Master McGrath said...

To Real Joe90:

We can delete this shitwit if you want. Perrsoanlly, I think they are doing a great service to us, but it's really up to you.

mother grundy said...

Jock-bashing, Jew-baiting... oh, it's more than I can bear... these people should be crucified! Delete them, Mr Gatekeeper, we demand it, immediately!

joe90 said...

Tolerating racism means your are just as guilty as the racists mother grundy,
or have you still to join the rest of the human race yet in its universal values of tolerance, love and compassion.

Just as tolerating crime and violence is the same as taking part in it - tolerating racism and bigotry is gatekeeping, you shitwit.

Gatekeeping the BNP, neo-nazis, Islamophobia, haters and desecrators of Islam Judaism and Chritsianity - guilty as charged!

master macgrath,
as you say mate, these idiots are anti-racism's shop window - whatever you decide is always fine by me mate!

all the best!

these dimwits are such stereotypes themselves, this fakeME has still to get past kilts and haggis...ho-hum

Master McGrath said...

Hiyah Joe,

Aye well, the thing is there is just so much material to sling at Scotland, and the worst of it is the stuff that is totally true and it would hurt our Jockenese pride all the more to get the home truths from a foreigner.

But luckily this eejit is stll trying to figure out the instructions on a box of matches...

I'm inclined to leave his trash up; shows we are upsetting the fash.

REJ GOCH said...

You spoke too soon. The Brighton cell of Mossad fails again!

Master McGrath said...

Rej Goch: Whose agenda is served by sneaking racsim, neo-Nazim and White Power into the PSM, Israel's agenda or Palestine's?

It's that simple!

Who benefits from the PSM lying down with Davis Duke, and holcoaust deniers, Israel or Palestine?

Not a hard one figure out?

So, if you had to assume Mossad was involved in this debacle would you figure it be more likely to be operating out of Brighton or London (and wherever in Italy)?

If you still assert "Brighton", you are either woefully ignorant of the opinions and activities or Rizzo & Atzmon (and need to read more of this site) or you are a useful idiot to Israel's agenda.

At any rate, apparently turning up here like a good little drone for your '3 Minutes' Hate' hasn't achieved anything.

joe90 said...

The Brighton cell of Mossad fails again!
- If I understand this half-cryptic statement correctly, I thought it was in Mossad's own best interests to promote antisemitism and infect the PSM with it.

Rej Goch seems to be saying that the state of Israel isn't predicated on the existence and threat of antisemitism - or that Israel isn't predicated on it claiming to be a safe haven for Jewish folk being persecuted abroad!

Correct me if I'm wrong but,
the antisemitic activities of rizzo-atzmon are in Mossad's and Israel's own best interests - and are extremely damaging to Palestinians and solidarity.
In fact, they are inimical and the very antithesis of what the PSM is about and is fatal poison for Palestinians.

Photies Gu Leor!

'March and Rally for Palestine 10 May 2008'
Barbaric Documents blog
10 Mar 2008

Master McGrath said...

Thanks Joe, much better put than I could manage!

Great photos! Nice to see a healthy turnout when I often wonder if Palestine has gone out of "fashion" or has been overshadowed by other causes.

REJ GOCH said...

Yes I have read the malicious libels you disseminate as well as other relevant texts in full. Plenty of others have as well and they seem to arrive at the same conclusion as I do. 'Socialist Unity' must have been chosen as a sarcastic comment on your own peculiar and rather limited world view. I don't think you would recognise socialism or unity if you fell over it. As for your understanding of the anti-zionist movement, given that most of your time seems to be spent in attacking anti-zionists, you have very little to contribute.

joe90 said...

Thanks for that rej goch.

I don't suppose you could maybe, in true left-wing style, fill out your assertions with facts and evidence and turn them into rational arguments, and argue your case properly, as any true socialist would do.

Otherwise, what you have are mere empty assertions more typical of right-wing politics, a style much in vogue with rizzo-atzmon.

...given that most of your time seems to be spent in attacking anti-zionists, you have very little to contribute.
- Obvioulsy, you aren't a keen reader of the articles on this blog, nor do you even bother to take any notice of their titles, for instance
Gilad Atzmon Joins with Anthony Julius to Attack Jewish Anti-Zionists

It's atzmon-rizzo who attack anti-zionists particularly for not being antisemitic like them, but more especially if they happen to be Jewish.

As you obvioulsy don't know,
but when it comes to antisemitism and Palestinian solidarity, antisemitism will always take priority with rizzo-atzmon - such is their dedication to helping zionism disseminate anti-Palestinian propaganda that can only be help the cause of the Israeli state in its ruthless pursuit of the destruction of Palestinians and Palestine.

There was a public demo in London yesterday, on behalf of Palestinians and Palestinian solidarity, and I'll guess that the number of antisemitic banners on parade was 0.

So much for atzmon-rizzo and their ideas of 'solidarity'.

Master McGrath said...

Socialist Unity means Unity within socialism. I don't know any socialists that think that unity with racists and Nazis is acceptable... not surprising given the diametric opposition.

Real socialists by their nature against racism, fascism and capitalism in all its forms.

And as you can see on this very thread the sort of shallow racist mindset typical to acolytes of dynamic duo.

"Malicious libel" eh? Care act like the CPS and disclose your case to which such charges relate?

Given that Atzmon and Rizzo are called racists and anti-Semites based on their own views quoted verbatim, also their activities such as contributing material directly to holocaust denial sites and linking to notorious White Power people like David Duke of the KKK and Radical Press Canada.

These are verifiable *facts* not assertions or smears.

I expect a point-by-point counterargument with verifiable sources, if indeed you have anything more to add at all...

So, a direct question: do you think the NeoNAzis like the KKK, Radical Press and Ernst Zuendel should be welcomed in the PSM?

Oh and by the way, this response took me all of 5 minutes. Not exactly taxing my time now is it?

Rachel said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Master McGrath said...

Rachel what else do you call people that assert that there is sunbstantial doubt regarding teh Holocaust? I know of only two phrases and teh both means the same seedy thing 'holocaust denier' or 'historical revisionist'.

And what do you expect from socialists other than telling racists to fuck off?

What place can racists have in a struggle against the racist (Zionist) ideology other than a totally counterproductive one?

Are you a racist? Do you want stand shoulder to shoulder with people who believe people can be determined by the ethnicity alone?

I suspect you must be. Because like most of the idiots that appear here to sling insults, you assume this is a Jewish site. Only one of the main contributors is a Jew.

And even if were all furry hat wearing Hacids, would that make us instantly whatever your grubby stereotype dictates?

I'd rather walk than sit next people like Atzmon/Rizzo.

Rachel said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Master McGrath said...

Well, many of my friends are convicted criminals. You will find that real-world activists frequently come a cropper of the State when they stand up in defiance. Nelson Mandela was "criminal"; the Dahlia Lama too; any number of refugees are deemed criminals by the state they flee...

I think it speaks volumes however that the only substantial fact you muster against Mr Greenstein is some act of petty theft dating back decades in his youth.

Quite interesting since you have been afforded ample opportunity to engage our criticisms head-to-head.

That you chose no to is a tacit admission of defeat.

What kind of rational person pursues a defeated line of reasoning? Generally bare-faced liars, the deluded and the insane.

All I can say is: better a grub than I maggot.

Tony Greenstein said...

I think we can ignore 'rachel' i.e. Sara Gillespie!

REJ GOCH has left a marginally more interesting post than the ones I deleted from rabid Rachel.

Assuming that he is who he says he is then maybe he can back up his comments:

i. What malicious libels

ii. Who are the 'Plenty of others' who have arrived at the same conclusions?
iii. Someone who is not a socialist will not undertand the need for Socialist Unity but when we have a world where trillions of dollars are spent on arms whilst most of the world goes hungry then the case for socialism and against the market economy is pretty strong by my book.

iv. Although Mr Goch seems to be a typical example of the, well, not very bright Atzmonite he could maybe ask himself why it is Atzmon who feels the necessity of always attacking anti-Zionists, especially of the Jewish variety. And why Atzmon, never, has ever even tried to present an analysis of Zionism itself. indeed he has very little to say about Zionism, other than how much he agrees with it vs its Jewish opponents. Strange that. Even rabid rachel can probably understand that!

Tony Greenstein

Master McGrath said...

Wow! laughing at dyslexics now. What next 'Kick a cripple for Hitler' day?

What sad twisted creature you are.

My comfort is that you must really fucking hate yourself more than anyone else.

Matthew said...

While the freaks writing for this site wank off obscenely in time to the beat of the Holocaust, 90% of Gazans are startving. All this site does, in fact, with it's obsession with so-called neo-nazis, is to draw attention away from that fact. This is a Zionist site.

A question for McGrub and Greenface to ponder: Isn't JAZ membership determined by ethnicity?

And Grubby, talking about walking, didn't 300 Palestinian activists ask your ex-con Zio mate to walk off, and never show his face again in polite society???

Master McGrath said...

"Matthew" that would be couple of hundred of people who signed up to some egotistical dross that was vaguer than the terms and conditions of a bogus timeshare flat?

The same petition that included notorious holocaust deniers and anti-Semites in the signatories?

Oh yes, of course we haven't covered anything regarded Gaza on here... Did you learn disinfo on the newsdesk of Pravda?

Hey if there is no Nazism to see, why would there be a distraction Columbo?

joe90 said...

Those who have not been circumcised should not even be allowed into the PSM, and the PSM leadership MUST all be socialists.
- A line straight out of the Jewish-hating, socialist-hating Nazi newspapers of 1920-1930s.

That's the thing about having a brain and being able to use it - you can always spot history repeating itself.

If we lable people as holocaust deniers and neo-nazis, those must be kept out..
- They are only labelled so because they are, and and as master mcgrath says, if this rachel character had evidence to the contrary then she would have provided it in an instant.
Instead, because rachel has no counter-evidence or counter-arguments, her only fall-back is to throw mud and hope its sticks - just like the nazis of old used to do.

Wiki Editor said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
joe90 said...

...seeks to add swastikas to all Wiki entries featuring genuine anti-zionists...
- And if rizzo-atzmon have their way that's exactly what is going to happen.

And there are big bonusses if you can make someone on our list look like a real neo-nazi.
- IndyMedia UK collective came to a publicly accountable decision about the merits of atzmon and his antisemitic outpourings. This was despite anti-democratic methods used to keep atzmon's neo-nazi dog-droppings online at IM-UK.
You should add them to your list too.
Maybe even Israel Shamir, the frustrated paedo and atzmon's idea of an 'advanced thinker'.
Or maybe even collaborator atzmon's pals at the Hamas-Islam hating 'Harry's Place' blog.

Speaking of public accountability,
as you know rizzo-atzmon's little artificially self-inflating antisemitic cyber-ghetto depends on the Palestinians supporting them, rather than them supporting the Palestinians -
- so, could you name me all the bona fide Palestinian organisations, officials and spokespersons that openly and publicly endorse rizzo-atzmon?

REJ GOCH said...

Malicious libels? 1. Accusing Gilad Atzmon of being a racist.
2. Accusing him of being anti-semitic. 3. Accusing him of being a 'holocaust denier'. 4. Stating that he is a 'fundamentalist Christian. I could go on and before you say anything I have read the accusations in detail and I am more than capable of detecting the use of selective quotation taken out of context as well as attempts to smear by association as well as the use of downright lies. I can also recognise when anti-zionism is deliberately portrayed as anti-semitism. The fact that some sectarians and some tiny sects spuriously wave the banner of unity does not prevent them from being self-serving splitters. As a revolutionary socialist of more than 40 years standing, I don't need lectures from those so detached from working class struggle that they have long since forgotten what socialism means.

Tony Greenstein said...

Yes Mr Jones. What malicious libels? If what you say is true, then Atzmon can easily follow up on his previous threat to me and issue a claim for libel and defamation. I think we both know why he wouldn't dare do such a thing.

You say you are able to detect all sorts of things, not least when anti-Zionism is attacked as anti-Semitism. Fine, but can you do it the other way around, viz. when so-called anti-Zionism is actually anti-Semitism? It would appear not.

Just because you like Atzmon's music, as your web site says, doesn't mean you have to go overboard on his nonsense politics. There are people who like Wagner's politics but are none to taken with his racist and fascist beliefs.

You say you have been a revolutionary socialist for 40 years. You may have thought you were but those apologising for the socialism of fools are not revolutionaries. I suspect you have been around a group like the WRP which also found itself fishing in some murky waters, to say the least.

As you have read what I've written, I shall take it that you have lost the ability to differentiate between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. After all, how does one selectively quote the following?
'“we must begin to take the accusation that the Jewish people are trying to control the world very seriously…. …. American Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do try to control the world, by proxy… I would suggest that perhaps we should face it once and for all: the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus who, by the way, was himself a Palestinian Jew.”

It is quite clear, so much so that Atzmon went back and changed 'American Jewry' to 'Zionists'. However if it makes you feel better to think otherwise then fine. There were many good socialists who found excuses for condoning the Stalinist purges, the Doctors Plot, the murder of Alter and Slansky among others, to say nothing of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact or the expulsion of German Communists into the hands of the Nazis.

If your apologestics are your comfort zone then fine. But don't fool yourself into believing that you are a revolutionary socialist.

joe90 said...

[sorry, this reply was written before TG's comment above appeared, but I thought I'd just post it anyway]

For somebody that claims to be undetached from the working class struggle,
you're a bit short on evidence for your claims, still.
Not very 'champion of the industrial proletariat' if you ask me.

rej goch
please present your evidence and arguments, rather than repeating your fact-free evidence-free empty assertions.

To be fair though and just like atzmon's own writings,
you do manage a half-decent re-hash and re-formulation of the same old tosh you've already spoputed.

Still, it must be wonderful being so attached to the working class struggle and not being part of a tiny sect of splitters.

If that is the case then these questions shouldn't be a problem to answer (unlike your inability to prove your empty assertions)-
- who amongst the PSM officially endorses atzmon-rizzo's antisemitism?
- who amongst bona fide Palestinian organisations and institutions endorses atzmon-rizzo's antisemitism?

I'm not racist. I'm not antisemitic. I don't openly excuse and justify the crimes of Hitler, for instance. The PSM does not endorse or support any of these views or positions either.
Neither are there any official bona fide Palestinian organisations who do.
In fact, if any of them did, zionists and the enemies of Palestinian solidarity and Palestinians would consider it a major propaganda boost, to say the least.

I openly endorse what the PSM stands for and represents.

atzmo-rizzo don't, and deliberately mis-represent their own views in public, and also the views of others who oppose their pernicious antisemitism.

When atzom is called to account publicly and in a democratic forum, such as IndyMedia UK (despite the obvious failures of its collective structure of deicision making) he is no-platformed.

The fact is, you can't defend atzmon either rej goch - or you can always prove me wrong, and give it a go.

Put up or shut up!

Brain Surgeon said...

Joe90, you should seriously consider suing the bastard who performed the surgery on you. I have never in my life seen a lobotomy f*cked up so badly. yes, I realise you're less of a thug now, but he should pay for turning you into the broken record of Scotland, endlessly repeating unintelligible phrases that mean nothing to anyone but you.

Less haggis may help you too, but I'd say go after the doc. If you can get your mind to wrap around that concept.

joe90 said...

Just to flag up this suff that is on the Socialist Unity blog.
Some in The Green Party is accusing the PSM of being antisemitic.

See the comments attached to this article -
'Zimbabwe: Urgent protest to save union leaders'
Socialist Unity
10 May 2008

And this article (which I haven't read through yet) -
'OVERCOMING ZIONISM: Creating a Single Democratic State in Israel/Palestine'
Socialist Unity
12 May 2008

all the best AZaAS!

I wouldn't give up your day job to become a comedian brain surgeon

REJ GOCH said...

I don't have to go into detail to substantiate what I have said. I just ask anyone who is interested to read everything in full for themselves. Your cynical and I have to say deliberate distortions are self evident. WRP members would be quite amused to see me enrolled as one of their members. TG's faultless analysis of my politics is like the rest of his vacuous ranting. As for whether I am a revolutionary socialist or not, I am quite prepared to stand on my record, which you know nothing about. Your opinion on that subject doesn't bother me.

joe90 said...

I don't have to go into detail to substantiate what I have said. I just ask anyone who is interested to read everything in full for themselves.
- Well, people aren't idiots. They're going to do that anyway as that is exactly why this blog exists.

Why do people need you to tell them the blindingly obvious?

As for whether I am a revolutionary socialist or not, I am quite prepared to stand on my record, which you know nothing about. Your opinion on that subject doesn't bother me.
- How or why would anyone want to have an 'opinion on something they know nothing about?

Is this even possible for a human to be able to achieve?

Is this how you operate yourself, as it would seem so.
rej goch - man of no arguments, only vacuous unsubstatiated opnions really, about nothing in particular except the blindly obvious.

You aren't an enigma - you're a moron.

And if your performance so far, on this particular blog is anything to go by, your 'record' won't be anything much, abysmal probably.

Tony Greenstein said...

No Goch, you don't have to go into any detail whatsoever. But since you made the assertion that you were a 'revolutionary socialist' you lay yourself open to being critiqued. Clearly you are unable to defend your self-characterisation since it is obvious that those who defend racism and anti-Semitism cannot, by definition, be socialists.

Socialists in case you are unaware see society as divided into classes. You clearly see the regular attacks on Jews not Zionists mind, with whom Atzmon never fails to agree, as some form of socialism, to which I responded with Bebel's famous quote about it being the socialism of idiots or fools.

Having been around on the Left for some considerable time I am surprised that I have never come across your name before now. Hence why I hazarded a guess that you might have been aligned with the WRP. Clearly they must be too socialist and not nationalist enough for you. How about that guy who was deputy to Arthur Scargill in the SLP, who edited the Social and Economic Philsophical Manuscripts? He was certainly anti-Semitic so maybe that's where you trace your roots, or maybe your just an eccentric or maybe you aren't worth bother about anyway.

But at least you are prepared to stand on a record that noone bar yourself knows anything about. Fine. can't be much of a record but who cares if you're happy with it.

I cited Atzmon's very clear anti-Semitism in a quote from his 'on anti-semitism' essay. Anyone who believes in the world Jewish conspiracy theory is a right-wing nut, not a socialist and I'm afraid Richard that that is your record.

Tony Greenstein

Master McGrath said...

Rej Goch,

No actually by definition you really MUST go into detail to substantiate any proper refutation.

What's more you aren't being 100% honest. There is no way you could have read the articles below and in goof faith argue your corner.

I don't get the impression that you are like most that come here- a bare-faced liar- but rather just deluded about Atzmon & Rizzo's politics.

Please address the points raised in the articles and if possible reread them in light of any issues which you feel you may have with what's written.

As a self-proclaimed socialist I can't believe you would knowingly wish to become associated with NeoNazis. Rizzo and Atzmon (the latter at least seems to have total contempt for socialism and the Left in general) show no reservations about welcoming the extreme right into the PSM.

As the right like to whine, it is indeed their right to free association and freedom of expression (within the scope of everyone's right to go unmolested); what pisses us off if the lack of honesty of their position and tactics.

Personally I would be have little to say on the matter if they openly hung their Swastika on their front door. They don't, the infiltrate neo-Nazism and racism into the PSM and DENY it! And worse still try constantly to deflect the issue away from their dubious actions.

joe90 said...

Tony G,
just to say that atzmon has had one of his articles flagged up over on the 'Media Lens Messege Board' and you and Mark Elf have been specifically mentioned as having a
"...virulent dislike of Atzmon..."

azvsas blog also gets a mention, here -
'Time is Running Out for Israel, Atzmon’s report of the Nakba commemoration event'
thread started by Gabriele
May 14, 2008, 8:44 am

I am not a member of Media Lens, otherwise I would intervene.

I just thought folks might want to know of this latest sighting of atzmon's antisemitic virus, and where the outbreak is to be found.

all the best azvsas!

Master McGrath said...

Cheers Joe,

My don't rumours grow legs... "threats"???

"Academic purity". These people are just plain ignorant of the issue.

Contributing material to White Power sites (Radical Press and the KKK) isn't an issue of academic purity, it's an issue of ethics and morality.

MediaLens should know better than swallow the spin of these jokers!

joe90 said...

Just to let you know master mcgrath,
that in my opinion and experience, the 'Media Lens Messege Board' is a discussion forum that is oustandingly well moderated (much like azvas is!).

There are no hiding places on it.
The members are extremely well-versed in dodgies and obvious tactics of the atzmon-rizzo variety.
The members are reasonable and open and as such, won't tolerate irrational comments or interventions - and neither do they tolerate aggressiveness and huffing and puffing.

MLMB is the perfect public democratic-minded forum where rizzo-atzmon's antisemitism will get found out immediately.

joe90 said...

It's well worth re-printing Gabriele Zamparini's latest comment to MLMB, as it shows he either -

- Has no idea what atzmon is writing about (for instance - he couldn't explain what an atzmon article was about when asked last time around on the MLMB when he posted a link to it)

- Or that he does know atzmon-rizzo are antisemites, and that therefore means, he is colluding in their propaganda campaign to silence their critics by using stereotypes normally deployed by zionists in order to silence critics of the current Israeli regime.

[start of MLMB comment]
Yes, the accusation of anti-Semitism is often used to silent dissent. Chomsky has been accused to be anti-Semitic for decades now. Anyhow, these are two interesting articles:

Gilad Atzmon Interviewed
The word Zionism is almost meaningless in Israel and within the Israeli discourse it is actually non-existent. Zionism may mean something to the American settlers in the West Bank or the new wave of French immigrants to Israel, but not much more than that, says Gilad Atzmon.
Interviewed by Mary Rizzo

The Gag Artists
Who's Afraid of Gilad Atzmon?

And don't forget to visit the new very interesting website
[end of MLMB comment]

Posted by gabriele
5:40 pm 14 May 14 2008

REJ GOCH said...

I wonder why my last set of comments failed to appear. Have you suddenly become selective.

Master McGrath said...

REJ: Because you didn't post any...

If you look at the thread you'll see that no comments have been deleted in days.

Post them again.

I wait with bated breath.

Master McGrath said...

But a wee word of advice before you do... You know it is okay to like someone's music and reject them as a person.

Gary Glitter and Jonathan King still sell records...

Tony Greenstein said...

I certainly haven't deleted said comments and, as Mr McGrath says, if a comment is deleted a message appears to that effect. These conspiracy theories! Now Mr Jones might have been doing more good if he had joined a few of us to repel the Zionist attacks on the Guardian's Comment is Free site on the Hamas spokesperson who made it clear that they do not support holocaust denial. However the Atzmonites prefer to attack other anti-Zionists (especially if they are Jewish!).

I too await the said comments with bated breath!

Master McGrath said...

Perhaps Rej/Richard is having 2nd thoughts about becoming the John Prescott of the PSM?

Which would be good... but I have to admit I have become morbidly curious at what gymnastics of sophistry and denial a "revolutionary socialist" would undertake to resolve alliance with Nazis and the condoning of racism with their professed politics.

REJ GOCH said...

Sorry to keep you waiting. Perhaps I was hoping you would just keep holding your breathe long enough to put us all out of our misery? Help me out here - are you all now saying that Atzmon and Rizzo are Nazis as well?

Master McGrath said...


I try to hold my breath a long as possible around Atzmonites; their stink makes me gag.

I thought you knew already in great detail what we have been saying.

Doesn't bode well if you have to ask such a broad and fundamental question.

I can only talk for myself:

They both parrot NeoNAzi ideas (global Jewish Conspiracy; Holocaust Denial); the both have contributed or promoted NeoNazi sites (KKK, Zuendelsite, Radical Press); endorse holocaust denial material... the waddle like a duck, they quack like a duck...

It's all documented on the links. Had you bothered reading them instead of believing that pair of shysters tell you we say, I wouldn't be typing this.

... but I couldn't say for certain whether they are self-professed Nazis or are just too bloody stupid. They ACT like crypto-Nazis, they talk the racist talk. And that's vile enough for most anti-racists.

I'm sure you'll make your own mind up irrespective of what we say.

REJ GOCH said...

Oh come on, don't be so reticent. If you think they are Nazis have the guts to say so. Don't beat around the bush. People might think you are hedging your bets in case you end up in court. What does 'They ACT like crypto-Nazis' mean. Give me some concrete examples and I don't mean more selective quotations, because you are talking about actions here. I like that bit about full of sound and fury but signifying nothing but I think it is a more fitting description of AZAAS. What was that crack about the John Prescott of PSM? It was a bit obscure even by your usual standards.

joe90 said...

[this comment was written before rej dazzler's latest comment appeared]

rej goch - a revoltionary socialist and a comedian!
Is there no end to this man's talents!

Mind you, just like his revolutionary CV, his track record as a comedian isn't exactly shining either.

Gone are the halcyon days, it seems, when people who called themselves revolutionary socialists and the like, would rise to any challange in an instant, no matter how trivial or gigantic!

The fastest reaction of all, by a mile, would have been to the challange to prove one's own revolutionary credentials. The haste of the reply, and its fullness, being proof alone of one's fervour and devotion to the cause.

But not these days - instead we're saddled with rej gochs-types, who can't even manage to send a comment properly, or even remember what it was they were supposed to be doing, viz -
Help me out here - are you all now saying that Atzmon and Rizzo are Nazis as well?

No rej goch, we're saying that you're supposed to be treating us all, to your revolutionary socialist cv.

In Stalin's day, of course, the likes of rej would have been taken out and shot long ago.

Master McGrath said...

I stated quite clearly my position.

You can pack up your rod and leave if you are fishing for some crap you have heard from your heroes.

Read the articles they are quite clear and will answer your queries.

You are the one typing a lot and saying nothing to the point here.

Now unless you address some specific points I'm just going to politely ignore your lack of engagement as a waste of my time.

Are you really a socialist? I'd have expected any socialist to get the Prescott reference.

Tony Greenstein said...

What our revolutionary socialist Richard Jones can't do is defend Atzmon's praise for arch-Zionist Anthony Julius in his attacks on Jewish anti-Zionists.

Julius not being thick like Atzmon knows just who the enemies of Zionism are, and it ain't Atzmon or Rizzo!

Avraham said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Dan said...

Gosh - by these standards 90 percent of the Einsatzgruppen wouldn't be considered anti-Semitic. I never realized how much one had to do in order to prove himself a veritable Jew hater.

Master McGrath said...

While we wait for another limp-wristed handbagging from Rej/Richard, I'll offer to open speculation the mystery of why a "revolutionary socialist" can read this thread and fail to be appalled by the anti-Semitic abuse hurled at us? Which is especially funny since this isn't even a Jewish site- but, I have learned, to a racist, a site with a Jew on board is much of a muchness.

Why, not even racism levelled at fellow Celts registers a response!

This abuse almost certainly emanates from the Atzmon-Rizzo fan club.

The difference to the usual Zionist abuse is fairly easy to spot: the racists use the word 'Jew' as an insult and the Zionists use the word 'anti-Semite'.

Perhaps this is yet another symptom of Rej's selective 'word blindness'?

Or perhaps like Atzmon's racial catchall 'Jewishness', I misunderstand Goch/Jones's idiolectical usage of "revolutionary". Perhaps on his lips the word means a revolution of silence: militant Trappist non-interventionist socialism maybe?

Shelomi said...

...but isn't it interesting that Julius acknowledges Atzmon as an adversary yet seems quite unaware of the existence of the Brighton professed 'anti-zionist' cell! Tee hee, not nice to be ignored is it, Greenie and Rancie? But never mind, our roving video producer, Tziga'le Cinematsky, has some major publicity up his sleeve for you boys :) Stay tuned. Change your clothes once in a while too, Greenie. You're not nice to be near.

REJ GOCH said...

So in Stalin's time I would have been taken out and shot! That sounds like the highest accolade to me. Notice how instead of responding to my challenge, they just produce another string of cheap insults. Smacks of cowardice and insecurity doesn't it? For a pack of attack dogs, when it gets down to it they are curiously lacking in teeth.

Master McGrath said...

Rej: you sound more and more like a dementia-suffering Lord Hawhaw with each pointless and evasive post.

What challenge are we supposed to be taking up, other than the 'Read and respond to Rej Goch's inane, pointless waffle' challenge???

If you feel like you ever may have something coherent to say we may have something to respond to.

Thus far all we have gleaned is that you are a gullible fool infatuated with someone who redistributes holocaust denial material, seems to personally submit work to NeoNazi sites and describes the redistribution of wealth as theft.

You are, it would seem by your bedfellows, as about socialist as General Franco.

Jews Against Anti-Social behaviour said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
REJ GOCH said...

Onset of Alzheimers? I asked two questions which you are doing your best to avoid...
1. Do you regard Atzmon and Rizzo as Nazis?
2. As you have claimed that they ACT like crypt-Nazis, please supply some concrete examples of the kind of actions you are alleging.
As you are obviously so fond of Joe Stalin, I can now understand some of your political methods, in particular your fondness for re-writing. I note that you have now added homophobia and sexism to your armoury. Keep up the good work. Let all your prejudices out for all to see.

Master McGrath said...


Your Steamroller of Stupidity gathers pace.

I have already answered your two questions, twice here and three including the texts I keep referring to.

A little hint. You asked a closed question and my answer was an open one, because I couldn't answer accurately within your framework.

No Rej YOU have added homophobia/sexism to your armoury.

You obviously don't know many poofs if you think that having a limp wrist was a reference to them; I've not met any handbag-bearing poofs in my lifetime, but perhaps your experience of homosexual subculture is vastly different to the London Scene.

... and for that matter I know women who can benchpress 6 sets of 80kg and kick me around a room with little effort.

Perhaps you need to write a stern letter to the BBC too:

I don't believe I have made any reference to Stalin. Joe did, but I didn't discern any cheerleading, but sarcasm.

joe90 said...

Well you can accuse people of a lot of things mr atzmon
but at least we have a sense of humour -
- and we don't need to go on fishing expeditions, as there is more than enough material to claim rizzo-atzmon associate themselves with the vilest neo-nazi propaganda -
- as well as opnely associating themselves with desecrators and defilers of Islam, such as the racist thugs at 'Harry's Place' blog.

rej atzmon chooses to be shocked at commonplace comments, but not by supporters of frustrated paedos, and apologists of nazi crimes who believe Israeli propaganda about Jewish folk but not Israeli propaganda about Arab folk.

By the way,
as you seem to take everything seriously and the hard way then you'll be able to process the following request without any ambiguity whatesoever -
where is your cv then rej atzmon?

If rizzo-atzmon aren't dissemminators of neo-nazi propaganda, rej atzmon,
then how do you account for their obvious antisemitism (hallmark of nazis and neo-nazis) and their blaming the crimes of Hitler on his victims?
What would you call this - pro-Palestinian solidarity perhaps?

If you know so much about them rej atzmon, then maybe you could answer a question on their behalf, which I put to antisemitic typhoid mary rizzo, but she refused to answer -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

Indeed, her avoidance tactics put me in mind of you and your absolutely steadfast refusal to reveal some of your history, which you were so proud to boast of at one point.

Tony Greenstein said...

I also notice that Mr Richards doesn't want to say what group he has been associated with or what tendency he supports etc. for the 40 years when he has allegedly been a revolutionary socialist. Fine.

Speaking on my own behalf, I don't consider Atzmon or Rizzo to be neo-Nazis or fascists. I've made this clear on a number of occasions. I do consider his good and 'unique and advanced' friend Israel Shamir to be a fascist but that's another matter.

Politically they are racists however and in using anti-Semitism they do a disservice to the Palestinians and play into the hands of Zionism. But given Atzmon is a Zionist that is not surprising.

REJ GOCH said...

You want my cv! Why? I'm not applying for a job. TG at least gives some sort of answer to a direct question but the other spineless sectarians will not give a straight answer.
1. Do they think Atzmon and Rizzo are Nazis? YES/NO
2. Can they provide evidence of the crypto-Nazi actions they allege?
When I referred to homophobia and sexism, I wasn't specific, so it's interesting that 'Master' Mcgrath knew what I was referring to straight away. After denying that this was homophobia he then condemns himself in his own choice of insulting language. Incidentally who is he accusing of being a paedophile? These people throw allegations around like confetti, but if you try and pin them down, they just resort to more insults and try to divert attention away from the endless succession of lies. By your references to 'fishing expeditions' I take it that you are afraid I am trying to trap you into saying something actionable. Leave aside that fact that so much of what you say is actionable, but no one can be bothered to take you to court, are you really that afraid to say what you mean. If you are so sure that you are right, surely there is nothing to fear?

Master McGrath said...

Thought you would bite...

You been in prison for the last 20 years Rej... poof stopped being derogatory about that long ago. I have never been censured once by any gay for using that word (try spending some time in the company of male homosexuals!)... these days you need to ADD something derogatory to it for it to become offensive. Pathetic attempt!

One again it's difficult to follow your pronouns.

But at any rate, you may wish to familiarise yourself with the Atzmon's good friend Shamir and his paen to sex with children.

You really do not know what you are defending do you? And you steadfastly refuse to educate yourself either!

No Rej we don't divert we have pointed you several times to the information that backs up our position. You rather weakly seem to think by refusing to read it and repeating the lie that we have no substance you look like anything other than an egocentric idiot.

Actionable in the courts? To quote people's own output? Yeah right!

You think a court would not accept calling someone who distributes & parrots Holocuast denial material and posts to holocaust denial sites, a "holocaust denier"? Or that someone who generalises Jews, asserts they control the United States and calls them "Christ killers" is anything but a dictionary definition racist & anti-Semite? That Ernst Zuendel and David Duke are anything but Nazis?

Perhaps that the reason no writs have been issued in this direction?

What strange world of socialism have you been nurtured in? National socialism?

And once again...

Your questions have been answered already!

Please illustrate our "lies" now... or are you going to be a hypocrite as well as ignorant... and repetitively dull beyond belief?

joe90 said...

rej atzmon - fisherman and guard dog whom we all have to be on our best behaviour for whenever he's around.

...but the other spineless sectarians will not give a straight answer....
- takes one to know one atzmon.

You were asked days ago to provide info about your supposedly twenty years of revolutionary politics - we're still waiting, you bankrupt fraud.

Please answer the following question which typhoid mary, and now you avoided -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

If you aren't a sectarian rej atzmon, and you do care about Palestinian solidarity, then this question and others like it, should be no problem to answer. Or is it just us sectarians who find aswering such questions a simple and easy task I wonder?

Personally speaking,
rizzo and atzmon are both antisemites who openly disseminate neo-nazi propaganda - and who have no place in the PSM.

No, I don't think they are nazis as they were all killed off long ago.

I don't think they are neo-nazis either, but for all the difference my own opinions makes, it is nothing compared to the damage these two antisemites are causing to Palestinians - who are the ones I care about, not these two empty balloons.

REJ GOCH said...

No answers. Just the same stuff re-cycled over and over again. Your arrogance is mind boggling. Who do you think you are that I have to provide a political cv before I can comment on what you say? Wonderful news about Shamir. Shame I haven't been discussing him. But I know your logic I have now mentioned his name and that makes me guilty by association. Oh no! I've been posting on a site run by sectarian cranks. That must make me .... Anyway this is all making excellemt material for my forthcominng book, 'Sectarianism for Dummies'. Keep it coming.

Master McGrath said...

And just to remind ourselves of the entree of Rej Goch a.k.a Richard Jones, of insult and libel hating fame:

"You spoke too soon. The Brighton cell of Mossad fails again!

10 May 2008 20:40"

I was going to ask why Atzmon defenders seem to be consistently morons, but I guess the answer is more elusive than "the chicken or the egg" (which at least has an evolutionary biological answer).

Master McGrath said...


Anyone who can be bothered can scroll up and see where I answered you. Where Tony and Joe have also answered you... you waiting for a fucking census, a plebiscite and a Papal decree???

You mentioned pedophilia; I mentioned Shamir's eulogising sex with children... do keep up!

No, you would only be guilty by association if like Atzmon you actually endorsed Shamir.

I think we can establish whoever you are, you are no socialist, you have no gay friends (if any at all), you seem to think no one can scroll up and you have no arguments but plenty of time wasting garbage.

Does anyone object if I erase this clown as a matter of course?

Master McGrath said...

My parting shot:

Rej, I beg you to consider instead writing a book by the title 'My Life as a mediocre Troll'

Thank you sooo much for stopping by!

joe90 said...

Who do you think you are that I have to provide a political cv before I can comment on what you say?
- because you were the one that introduced the concept in only your third comment, in order to justify your evidence-free allegations that others are 'splitters' and 'sectarians' mr atzmon.

You base the claims of your ability to discern 'splitters' and 'sectarians' (ie atzmon-speak for anti-zionist Jews) on your 20 years of revolutionary zeal apparantly.
So its only natural, therefore, for others to ask you to provide evidence for your revolutionary zeal, otherwise your claims are false.
This is your own professed standard by the way, not anybody elses. You say your claims stand or fall using this standard - so put up or shut up atzmon.

The fact that some sectarians and some tiny sects spuriously wave the banner of unity does not prevent them from being self-serving splitters.
- true enough mr atzmon, you should know.

Your cynical and I have to say deliberate distortions are self evident.
- So self-evident in fact, that you are unable to repeat them and reveal them in public.
Much like your non-existent revolutionary cv, upon which you claim to base your own reputation for truth and honesty. You also refuse to allow others to judge you by your own record by refusing to make the relevent parts of it public.
I may make jokes about non-socialists such as Joe Stalin - but I don't pracitice his ethics.

master mcgraths reference to gays outrages you apparantly atzmon - but giving gays, and other victims of Hitler, the blame for the crimes of the Nazis doesn't.

Which reminds me smiley-face atzmon goch -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

joe90 said...

Does anyone object if I erase this clown as a matter of course?
- This seems a bit like being a Roman Emperor at the Flavian Amphitheatre (Coliseum, Roma) - thumb up or thumb down for atzmon goch?

Come to think of it, it feels more appropriate, somehow, to imagine goch being flushed back down into the cloaca maximus of the pissingonpalestine sewer from whence he surfaced.

joe90 said...

er, thumb down, flush away!

Tony Greenstein said...

No leave him up. It's good entertanment!

Richard Jones says 'Who do you think you are that I have to provide a political cv before I can comment on what you say?'. well you made the proud boast of 20or was it 40 years as a revolutionary socialist but you seem a tad reluctant to substantiate your boast. And noone seems to have every heard of you so you must have kept it to yourself. Of course you don't have to do anything, still less prove that you are a socialist.

And given that you have a soft spot for Atzmon and Shamir and seem to echo all his cyber cell nonsense I guess that the simple response is that no Mr Jones, you aint no socialist because racism and anti-Semitism and socialism are not compatible. After all how does the old saying go? If you lie down with dogs you get fleas and both Shamir & Atzmon are certainly dogs.

Tony Greenstein

REJ GOCH said...

See what I mean? I mention Shamir and straight away TG says I sympathise with him. I am branded as a racist and an anti-semite. Apparently I have no friends let alone gay friends. What marvellous powers of deduction Mossad teaches these days. Talking about scrolling up. Anyone who does so can see that you have refused to give straight answers to the two simple questions I put to you and anyone can understand why. So you are going to pull the plug on me. I am shaking in my boots. Now you can just carry on playing with yourselves. Be happy. Buy lots of extra tissues.

joe90 said...

Branding anti-racists as racists is part of the giladeo-centric world view that can brand anti-zionists as zionists.

atzmon goch says -
I don't have to go into detail to substantiate what I have said. I just ask anyone who is interested to read everything in full for themselves.
comment 14 May 2008 00:02

And when people draw logical conclusions, which must follow from what little atzmon goch actually has to say for himself -
I mention Shamir and straight away TG says I sympathise with him. I am branded as a racist and an anti-semite
comment 17 May 2008 11:40

People draw the logical conclusions from what little atzmon has said so far - but he complains when they do without explaining why they are wrong.
Just to state the logic in syllogistic form. It goes like this -
-rej goch supports atzmon,
atzmon supports Israel Shamir therefore
rej goch supports Israel Shamir (otherwise rej goch doesn't actually support atzmon)

as atzmon himself says -
No answers. Just the same stuff re-cycled over and over again.
comment 16 May 2008 23:19

You aren't a sectarian atzmon goch - well, lets have the revoluionary cv then by which your own reputation stands or falls, as you yourself claim.

By the way atzmon, if you aren't a sectarian then you ought to be able to answer this question which is about priorities of whether the welfare of Palestinians come first, or exploiting their suffering in order to disseminate antisemtism does -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

Master McGrath said...


Poor Winston Jones. There he was doing his physical jerks in front of propaganda viewing screen and like a loyal footsoldier he rallied to the 3 Minutes Hate levelled at Tony Goldstein.

He dutifully comes over here to throw stones ("insults" and "libel") at us and then sticks his fingers in his ears to blot out the fact he threw his lot in with racists, that the evil tony Goldstein was made up by Gilad O'Brien- but has them open long enough to get the piss ripped right out his stuck record routine.

To cap it all off, the target of his loyally administered derision (the Evil Tony Goldstein) deems him too amusing to be deleted. I'm just so glad I swore his oath to throw bile in face of idiot racists.

So I finally understand it has been 40 years of unquestioning, obsequious loyalty to Big Brother's IngSoc to which he alludes.

I guess that makes PeacePalestine the Chestnut Tree Cafe?


Anti-Semitism is anti-Zionism!
Opposing your enemy is sectariansim!
Defaming Palestine is freedom!

Tony Greenstein said...

Poor Mr Jones. Despite having apparently been a teacher, as well as an expat colonial, he is unable to understand the English language still less understand what a logical deduction is. He has aligned himself with the Atzmon/Rizzo clique, who consider that Shamir is 'a unique and advanced thinker' according to Atzmon, and he protests that he is being accused of sympathy with them!

Of course Mr Jones is quite at liberty, given the close connectins between his new found friends and Shamir to make an explicit statement that he doesn't agree with Shamir, but then that might jeopardise his relations with the A/R clique.

I don't know who are his friends, still less whether they are gay, nor do I care. What is of course clear is that Shamir is a homophobic bigot as well as a racist. But who cares, the 'socialist' Richard Jones is quite happy to mix in such company and who am I to deny him his small pleasures in life.

But we see which poisonous pool the 'socialist' Jones fishes in when he witters on about Mossad. Of course to those who believe that all Jews are Zionists, an attachment to conspiracy theories about Mossad must come automatically.

I'm not going to pull the plug on Jones since is typifies the idiocy of the clique he's involved in but it's not for him to decry the fact that people don't apparently give him answers when he can't answer a straight question - if you've been a revolutionary socialist for 40 years how come noones noticed?

Tony G

joe90 said...

[this was written befere TG's comment appeared]

And when zionists accuse anti-zionists and supporters of Palestinian Human Rights of being antisemites, it won't be because they are trying to silence us using unsubstantiated smears, it will because they are speaking the truth.
Yet those who defend Palestinians against charges of antisemtism, the zionist defence par excellence, are the ones atzmon goch reckons are the splitters and sectarians.

atzmon-rizzo can only defend Palestinians and their supporters against zionist charges of antisemitism by either telling lies, or by telling the truth and agreeing with zionists that supporters of Palestians are antisemites - so what then, people might reasonably ask?

Well, antisemitism is the very reason given for the existence of the zionist state by its supporters. Israel is there to protect Jewish People from antisemitism.
So atzmon-rizzo won't actually be defending Palestinians when they tell zionists the truth about their antisemitism. They will be defending Israel and zionism's right to the Land of Israel.
And of course, they will also be accusing Palestinian supporters of being antisemitic liars, which will be the truth, if these two have their way.

And when atzmon goch claims that his claims rest or fall on the zealousness of his 20-40 years of revolutionary ardour, but then refuses to provide proof (given atzmon goch claims there is 20-40 years of evidence, it should be a very simple matter indeed), then the silence must be taken as proof that he's a liar.

Given the nature of atzmon goch's claims (ie to ardour and actually being in the vanguard) and failure to provide proof positive evidence can be reasonably held against him.

Negative evidence such as silence, isn't a defence in cases where someone has to prove their zeal, ardour and vanguardism - silence is proof that these claims are lies.
The formal name for this type of apodiectic proof, which is true by the very nature of its physical demonstration, escapes me at the moment.

Master McGrath said...

"The formal name for this type of apodiectic proof, which is true by the very nature of its physical demonstration, escapes me at the moment."

'Smelling shite'?


joe90 said...

Philosphy is a funny old game, just like football.
Which reminds me, have you seen the latest headlines in Glasgow's 'The Daily Mash' -

looks like the Gers blew the jerseys again the day - they could only draw wi' Motherwell, which means the Celts are gonna win the league.
Only a few weeks ago, the Bears hid a huge lead o'er the Celts, something like 10 points.

joe90 said...

[sorry about the formatting mistakes there, but its definitely the blogger software that is causing these problems - it happened with me on another blogger site - here is my comment again without the link embedded]

Philosphy is a funny old game, just like football.
Which reminds me, have you seen the latest headlines in Glasgow's 'The Daily Mash' -

looks like the Gers blew the jerseys again the day - they could only draw wi' Motherwell, which means the Celts are gonna win the league.
Only a few weeks ago, the Bears hid a huge lead o'er the Celts, something like 10 points.

Master McGrath said...

Aye, near pished masel. Been tellin folks doon here thit the Manchester Polis should ae just broke oot teh baton rounds an aimed fur the heed heehee!

Well at least the hale country got ae see whit Glesca hus ae deal wae every bloody weekend!

Moan ra hoops! (I'd cheer Idi Amin if he wiz playen the Shite!)

REJ GOCH said...

More drivel. I'm an expat colonial now. I hope you've been having fun reading my blog but you really mustn't jump to conclusions without reading more carefully. If you find any evidence in my work of all the libels you have uttered against me, please produce it.
Meanwhile may I remins you od the questions you refuse to answer...
1. Dou you think Atzmon and Rizzo are Nazis? YES or NO will do.
2. As yo have alleged that they "ACT" like crypto-Nazis, can you provide concrete examples of such ACTIONS?
Put up or shut up!
As for your curiosity about my background, I can't see any reason why I should bother to tell you. Who do you think you are? Why on earth should anyone have to justify themselves to you? ARROGANT. PATRONISING. COWARDLY.
DELUSIONAL. SECTARIAN. Look in the mirror and weep!

Master McGrath said...

Rej you are a first class moron. but at least you excel at trolling obviously was 3rd subject at uni.

I have already told you my position- and just because you are growing on me, I'll answer them again: breaking it down into moron-sized concepts: no but they hang out with (Neo)Nazis and parrot (Neo)Nazi themes... which also answers your second question.

The proof is in the articles I cited and you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge.

But to answer outwith the remit of your question. I think they are certainly racists of the anti-Semitic variety.

I take you taught something a little less taxing on the intellect like woodwork or sports.

Oooh, sustained capitals; time to reach for the lithium again dear?

I'm beginning to wonder if Rej Goch is actually a virus which attack blogspot with a limited amount of stock phrases???

joe90 said...

[written before mm's comment above appeared]

Wednesday was a surprise
because I never heard the usual police/ambulance sirens tearing up and down the main road oot front efter the whistle.
It was only when I read the news on the internet that it clicked and I realised the Gers mob were a' doon in Manchester!

The Scottish experience of unionism condensed into Manchester into one night - yer right as usual mm.

I passed an orange walk the day, and when a' goat doonwind, the sweet stench of collective alcoholic human breath almost overwhelmed me.

Speaking of stench, rej drivel's back, ho-hum -
ARROGANT. PATRONISING. COWARDLY. - and these are just drivel's good points anaw.

Master McGrath said...


Whit ah cannae get ma heed roon, is hauf these Orange eejit ur gawnae be ae Highland descent: total bampots wae nae clue about whit King Billy and 'es Young Team did ae thur ancestors!

But it's aw jis a big excuse furra rammae anyways!

Hah! Ah hink Richt Glaeckit's jis here cos he's ganten furra backstage pass ae gie his hearthrob a gammy.

joe90 said...

That reminds me of a quaint old Scottish folk tune, whose lyrics go something like so -

git yer gums aroon ma plums
gies a gammy

git yer teeth roon ma beef
gies a gammy

git yer gnashers roon ma bashers
gies a gammy

git yer lipstick roon ma dipstick
gies a gammy

- and so on and so forth.

Master McGrath said...

Burns or Mcgonagle?

Bit, glaekit boy minds me ae some auld pished cunt doon Buchanans tryen ae noise up sumdae hoo'z already hauf wae haem.

Noo, watch the dug see the rabbit!

joe90 said...

stoat the ba' rej cock mare like,
jist like his ain high heid yins, israel shineyheid an gagoan thiswan

Master McGrath said...

Or Radge is he's cawed ooer Embra!

Am hinken a recognise im fae demos, hawnen oot SWP placards ae Japanese tourists.

REJ GOCH said...

So they are not Nazis and the only action they are guilty of is "parroting" ( not true ) but they "hang out" with neo-Nazis. Explain - you wee sleekit timourous beasties.

Master McGrath said...

rej: scroll up and read the articles cited and you will find a wealth of evidence of interaction with NeoNAzis, KKK, Holocaust deniers...

Your name even appears in a list next to some of them! Bet your comrades must be so proud you.

But you won't acknowledge these facts because you are here merely as some sort of disinfo clown and not for any real discourse.

You can't possibly acknowledge the evidence because that would shut you up.

REJ GOCH said...

But I've seen all your selective quotation in it's original context and if that's all you evidence all that it proves is ....
1. You have no grasp whatsoever of the English language. OR
2. You are deliberately misinterpreting to suit your own story line.
Given your readiness to smear me without knowing the first thing about me ( please don't ask for a life history again! ) I am inclined to favour the latter. It's an old technique much loved by the KNVD, CIA and your favourites Mossad.

joe90 said... wee sleekit timourous beasties.
- he's git a the patter

An a kennt, wance a sent aff whit it wis a thoat a kennt cockmeister wis oan aboot, thit radge wis actually the gemme

radge cocks goat a coupon oan im thits jist gaggin fir it

Master McGrath said...

Well as qualified linguist, English language teacher, and translator, I must have had one hell of a 'bad hair day' then.

You think there is ambiguity in personally submitting material to a notorious Holocaust denial & anti-Semitism website; and very possibly personally to a KKK site (at any rate not distancing yourself from the site when made aware of it); from distributing and endorsing a Holocaust denial text, in blaming the victims of the 3rd Reich for their own fate; in stating that Jews run America; that the Protocols are true?

All that sit squarely with you calling to "revolutionary socialism"?

Or do you care to provide a narrative of plausible deniability for all that? Like " a big boy did it and ran away"?

No, *you* were the one that turned up here and *immdiately* dubbed us the Brighton Mossad cell. It's here in black & white.

You are either pisstaking liar or you are in chronic denial.

But, that you are cool with standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Holocaust deniers and NeoNAzis is the worst thing we could say about you... and you just said as much yourself.

We now don't need your CV to know you are no real socialist.

joe90 said...

Given your readiness to smear me without knowing the first thing about me ( please don't ask for a life history again! )
- How can we be smearing you if we don't know anything about you?

For all anybody knows about you could be Martin Bormann, and everything anybody's said about you is true.

How is anybody to judge, rej drivel, if they are unable to compare arguments if one side, yours, doesn't provide the evidence upon which they say their case stands or falls?

For all anybody knows, folks on AZaAS are telling the truth - prove your doubters wrong

this sounds like some kind of attempt to provoke people into libelling themselves?

I know the police can't provoke people into committing criminal acts - but I'm not so sure about British civil law in the matter of provocation.

Master McGrath said...

Aye, wan yae widnae tire ae punten anaw, as my Granny aye opined!

Ah hink he still husnae clocked thit it his "best laid plans" that ur gawn "aglay".

Talks maer shite than the polis!

Master McGrath said...

Entrapment is entrapment in the law.

I think it's twice as daft. This eejit seems to be so ill-informed about what we have been saying that seems (by his mantra-like question which had already been answered but he didn;'t like the fist answer) that we have been stating that Atzmon & Rizzo are political Nazis.

No doubt he gleaned this from the stale piss he sups down at PeacePalestine, and since you have to be a gullible dimwit to frequent that place anyway, he did no fact checking.

And then I think he thought he'd get to polish Atzmon's instrument if he delivered some horse's mouth proof we were accusing them of being the intellectual wing of Combat 18.

Rej Goch has already demonstrated here that subtlety is not his forte and sentences with more than one clause just dumbfound him- why else does he ignore them?

That's why he had to keep hammering away with a completely inappropriate contextless closed question.

Perhaps this is why he came here all guns blazing accusing us more or less of being the ADL.

Tony Greenstein said...

Earlier in the thread Richard Jones 'goch' stated that:
'As a revolutionary socialist of more than 40 years standing, I don't need lectures from those so detached from working class struggle that they have long since forgotten what socialism means.'

When called to substantiate this assertion, since there is no other evidence to suggest that Goch is anything other than an Atzmon conspiracy theorist, he splutters that:

'As for your curiosity about my background, I can't see any reason why I should bother to tell you. Who do you think you are?....'

So having made an assertion and refused to back it up one can only conclude that whatever Goch is, it isn't a revolutionary socialist or indeed any form of socialist.

In response to the comprehensive explanation that this site provides as to why Atzmon is an anti-Semite and also a Zionist, all Goch can say is:
'I've seen all your selective quotation in it's original context and if that's all you evidence all that it proves is ....'

Fine Goch. Now instead of blustering, tell us why you believe that all quotations I and others have cited are out of context. Why is the bit about the Protocols being true, regardless of whether they are a forgery, being ripped out of context, or the things about Christ killers, conspiracies to take over the world, that Jews and Zionists are the same thing....

Of course Goch, being unable to make a substantive response, as opposed to more windbaggery, will reply that he doesn't see why he should. But that won't do because he has made the assertion and if he believes it he should back it up. But he can't as he is one of the simpler forms of Atzmon clones.

But maybe Goch could at least substantiate one thing. What evidence does he have that Mossad are my 'favourites' or that I am involved in an alleged 'Brighton cell of Mossad'. Isn't this the same type of caricature that Zionists engage in or are all Jews who don't fawn at Atzmon's feet crypto-Zionists/Mossad/(fill in your own term).

You see it is plain Goch that you are just a run of the mill reactionary, with no socialist or class credentials, who is unable to back up a single assertion he makes and indeed, with his Mossad assertion demonstrates that he is also an advocate of Jewish conspiracy theories. It is quite understandable that Goch gets so hot under the collar when asked to back up his assertions that he is a revolutionary socialist. After all, if you can't provide any evidence then what else can you do but bluster?

Tony G

REJ GOCH said...

As for a point by point refutation of your libels, I don't have to bother because Atzmon has already done this more than once and all your attempts to silence him using these slurs have failed.
As for myself and my 'credentials', I repeat, who are you to demand things of me? Don't I have a right to an opinion without having the thought police check me out first? If this is the case then this should be a requirement for everyone who posts here and you should make it clear...BEFORE POSTING, PLEASE PROVIDE A DETAILED CV FOR OUR SCRUTINY!

Master McGrath said...

And that's the best that Atzmon's most fervent terrier can bite off.

A rebuke for us asking for the CV he offered, and another evasion of our demands for some *substantial* details of refutation- citing, avaguely, some other document (as mythical as his socilasit credentials no doubt).

I personally shan't be wasting my time asking this prize-winning moron to cough up this supposed trouncing.

Why does he keep coming back to throw hypocritical abuse and advertise the fact he nothing to back it up?

I guess clowns like Goch/Jones know nothing other than making a fool of themselves.

I almost feel we should offer him his own column here? He's certainly a bigger embarrassment to his gurus than we are.

REJ GOCH said...

Thanks for the offer. I already have a column. Can you even read? I said that Atzmon had given a point by point rebuttal of your smears ( which of course you know only too well ). Given your relentless display of arrogance it's not surprising that you have two men and a dog in your 'organisation'. Oh sorry, the dog was expelled for having too much sense.
What really gets to you is that Atzmon is a far more effective force in supporting Palestinians than you will ever be, bringing their cause to thousands, rather than spending their lives talking to themselves. It must be really galling when the movement turns to him for support eg. the recent commemoration of the Nakba at Exeter. To top it all he has the gall to attack the Zionist Left and expose them for the smug,self-satisfied hypocrites that they are. The standard of your argument and your 'openness to discussion' are laid bare in these exchanges. You just lack the wit to see how anybody would react after reading your endless tirade of gratuitous abuse and to your constant patronising posturing.

Master McGrath said...

Poor Rej; played the bad cop card and found out we can do verbal savaging better than him. Go cry beneath Atzmon's skirts!

We tried to engage you at a rational and educated level, but it was quite clear you were merely interested in ranting like some closed ward inpatient.

Anyone who can't spot your deliberate and vacuous trolling is welcome to think the worst of us, because they'd have to be so biased as to be a lost cause anyway.

Atzmon's *point-by-point* rebuttal? My, this grows like your nose Pinocchio. Tell us where we find this Holy Grail that convincingly explains away all this hobnobbing with NeoNazis and racists. It's certainly news to me. And since you are a one trick pony (think Cockney!), I could do with another joke to laugh at.

Anyone can attack the Zionist Left/Right/Centre as much as they wish for all we care, but it usually is more convincing if the person who does it does not dance to the Zionist tune himself.

Do you even know what the Left means though? You've done a sterling job of making socialism sound like Veritas meets the Countryside Alliance.

Ooh, the cult of personalty and a great pissing contest; how very class war, comrade Goch. What next chart positions and t-shirt sales figures???

Sure we can't tempt you with "Rej Goch- The Voice of Irrationaily" with a tagline of "I condone racism!"?

Tony Greenstein said...

Ah dear Mr Jones gets it wrong again. There's been no 'point by point refutation' of my or indeed anyone else's critique of his scribblings but it's touching of Jones to believe what Atzmons says on this.

Again Goch doesn't seem to understand the English language. I have no reason to demand anything, least of all proof, of what Jones says. But since it was he who ventured that he was a revolutionary of 40 years standing, all I and others have done is to ask what prooof he has to make such an assertion. But if he is simply a liar and has no record of political involvement then of course he will huff and puff.

Atzmon's main attraction is as a jazz player, not as a writer or thinker, since I know of no academic writing or indeed any polemic which quotes him.

As for attacking the Zionist left, again our toy town revolutionary gets it wrong. It was on Rizzo's own blog that Atzmon came out in support of Amir Peretz, because he as apparently a 'left wing' Zionist. There is no excuse for Mr Jones not to know this, because it is printed on this site, in an article describing why Atzmon is a Zionist. Coupled with his support for Anthony Julius's attack on Jewish anti-Zionists one can but conclude that said Richard Jones, apart from not being a revolutionary socialist is not an anti-Zionist either, merely another common and garden variety of anti-Semite. The quote from Atzmon, which originally appeared on Rizzo's sewer ran thus:

'For the first time an Israeli politician considers peace as a meaningful signifier rather than an empty slogan. … But not only is Peretz’s message authentic, it may as well be a message to the European community: No more global capitalism…. the only way to confront global capitalism is to fight it locally and socially. This is what the Israeli Labour party has decided to do…. In the next election the Israeli people will have to choose between the hard capitalistic vision of the notorious Netanyahu and the call for social transformation and equality led by Mr Peretz.'

Yes I know this is rather an embarrassing quote but it fills in well with the verbal diahorrea of Atzmon, who manages to spray all sorts of words without ever understanding any of them.

joe90 said...

The priority with revolutionary rej spart, is of course, atzmon, not Palestinians.

When asked to defend Palestinians against accusations that they are antisemitic and that their supporters are antisemitic, rev rej can't seem to find the wherewithal to accomplish this, the most simplest of tasks on behalf of Palestinians.

Given your relentless display of arrogance it's not surprising that you have two men and a dog in your 'organisation'. Oh sorry, the dog was expelled for having too much sense.
- Which revolutionary organisations have you been associated with then, revolutionary rej, these past 40 years?
And which ones were a roaring success with the masses?

rev rej has been such a success as a revolutionary, that he can't bear to tell anyone about his sparklingly successful career.

rej spart doesn't mind admitting modest truths about himself. Unlike us arrogant lot who don't boast of anything much, because we know that's not what struggle for social and economic justice is about. It's only egoist balloon-heads like atzmon, who prefer the limelight, who mistake publicity about their supposed do-gooding philathropy, for moral and cultural progress.

Master McGrath said...

And talking of the Nakba event:

Seems like we aren't the only ones to think Atzmon a racist...

But we knew that already because we aren't even the first people to picked up on his agenda, let alone being the ones to have done so.

Master McGrath said...

"let alone being the [only] ones to have done so."

REJ GOCH said...

I ask questions, but instead of answers these political high minds try to turn the attack against me. That is because they are too cowardly to give direct answers preferring instead to rely on inuendo and smearing. Unlike them I do not suffer from an obsessive need to blow up my own importance and have no need to defend myself against the constant barrage of lies. Incidentally who is Joe 'The Tartan Stalin' Kane and what great contributions has he made to any movement and who is anonymous Master 'Bater' McGrath? TG's infamy I have come to know of late, but he is hardly a star in the revolutionary fermament. So why are they so keen to find out about me and why on earth should I entertain their fevered curiosity?
Watching them spin around in frustration is so much more entertaining for all of us!

Master McGrath said...

I don't think any of us could really give a shit about you Rej... it just became really amusing to watch you backtrack on your glorious achievements of "revolutionary socialism".

Well, much like every one of your batty accusations (y)our "frustration" is all in your head. You have been a great source of amusement if anything.

To frustrate anyone you have to engage their arguments. All you do is turn up and yap yap yap a load of insults and lamest claims going.

I'm beginning to wonder if someone is either pulling our legs or has had a stroke of genius and you were made up just to look Atzmon & Rizzo look even worse: a defender that doesn't engage; a gullible fool.

I have better debates with sulking teenagers.

We have even offered you your won space here! How "frustrated" does that sound.

I let you get back to polishing you ego.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
joe90 said...

Incidentally who is Joe 'The Tartan Stalin' Kane and what great contributions has he made to any movement and who is anonymous Master 'Bater' McGrath?
- And who are you to ask such questions rej zero?

But then, if you did answer this question rej you would also be able to substantiate your empty assertions.

You claim the truth of your claims rests on your reputation, which you refuse to provide proof of.

I claim the truth of my claims rests upon evidence and facts rather than my career or reputation.

You can see the difference rej - I already prove my claims using standard science-based methodology. You prove nothing rej, except how much of a hot-air balloon you are, typical of atzmon-rizzo hot-air shallow personality club.

I notice your priority is still protecting and defending atzmon, rather than Palestinians rej.

Watching them spin around in frustration is so much more entertaining for all of us!
- Yes, I'm sure Palestinians are falling about in knots rej. What an exhibition of solidarity you are.

REJ GOCH said...

I haven't based any of my questions on my 'reputation'. What planet are you on? I notice that you are still anonymous. You demand a cv of me but you have nothing to say about yourself and are even too shy to reveal your real name. You assume I do nothing else but post to you, another example of your ego and arrogance at work. As for insults - take a look at your own posts and those of your collaborators. The trouble is that you have so much contempt for your readers that you honestly believe you will get away with this.

Master McGrath said...

Goodness! What a pile of drivel and you have a cheek to ask us if WE can read. I am utterly bewildered how you arrived at half the keech you have just written.

I couldn't give a rat's arse if you were reincarnation of Fred Dibnah. It's just funny that you quote credentials which you refuse to produce.

I also couldn't care less if you spent all day writing to the Daily Mail (as is your charming style).

And I could care even less what clueless Atzmon-Rizzo sycophants laugh at. Though, it's reassuring to know they don't like us.

Yeah, sorry, I'm so up my own arse with all my boasting of 40 years of glorious socialist revolution.

Encore Rej!

Please reconsider the Rej Goch column!

joe90 said...

rej thinks we don't take him seriously - I wonder why that is?

The trouble is that you have so much contempt for your readers that you honestly believe you will get away with this.
- I'm shaking in ma boots!
The track record of rej zero so far points to a bleak future for all of us.

rej is after us - now we're in for it!

As a revolutionary socialist of more than 40 years standing, I don't need lectures from...
13 May 2008 21:40

As for whether I am a revolutionary socialist or not, I am quite prepared to stand on my record...
14 May 2008 00:02

it's not surprising that you have two men and a dog in your 'organisation'. Oh sorry, the dog was expelled for having too much sense.
18 May 2008 16:23

Well, the future might've beeen bleak if there was more than just this pathetic sequence of non-comments on this thread by rej zero to base a judgement on.
As it is, I won't be losing much sleep over this typical atzmonite non-entity.