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Tuesday, 27 May 2008

ENGAGE Hypocrites Support Finkelstein's Arrest & Deportation


Engage is a site set up by David Hirsh, John Strawson and other Zionists in order to fight the academic boycott of Israeli universities. Not surprisingly, one of their most avid supporters is Gilad Atzmon, who also opposes the academic boycott as 'book burning'.


Last weekend, Norman Finkelstein, the anti-Zionist Jewish academic and author, was arrested at Israel's Ben Gurion airport by the Shabak secret police, detained for 24 hours and then deported. No doubt Gilad Atzmon & his devoted groupie, Mary Rizzo, also support this, since being an anti-Zionist Jew, Finkelstein must also be a Zionist according to Mr Jazzmon!


The decision to deport Finkelstein is rapidly becoming yet another embarrassment for 'the only democracy in the Middle East'. Ha'aretz has printed a robust editorial criticising the decision to deport Finkelstein:

Who`s afraid of Finkelstein?
Haaretz May 27, 2008

[See also
petition]

On Friday morning, the State of Israel refused to allow Prof. Norman Finkelstein, an American Jewish political scientist, to enter the country. Finkelstein was arrested at the airport and questioned by the Shin Bet security service for several hours. A day later, it became known that he had been banned from entering Israel for 10 years, for security reasons. Finkelstein managed to meet with a lawyer, who told him his chances of changing the decision were slim. When the Shin Bet decides that someone constitutes a security risk, the courts do not intervene.


According to the law, both in Israel and in other countries, no one has an intrinsic right to enter a country of which he is not a citizen. Immigration authorities have the power to keep a tourist from entering the country for reasons known only to themselves, and do not even need to provide an explanation. In Finkelstein`s case, the disturbing issue is neither the legality of keeping him out nor the authority to do so, but the reasonableness of the decision. Considering his unusual and extremely critical views, one cannot avoid the suspicion that refusing to allow him to enter Israel was a punishment rather than a precaution.

It is difficult to sympathize with Finkelstein`s opinions and preferences, especially since he decided to support Hezbollah, meet with its fighters and visit the graves of some of its slain operatives. But that does not mean he should be banned from entering Israel, since meetings with Hezbollah operatives do not in themselves constitute a security risk. True, the right to enter Israel is not guaranteed to noncitizens, but the right of Israeli citizens to hear unusual views is one that should be fought for. It is not for the government to decide which views should be heard here and which ones should not.
The decision to ban Finkelstein hurts us more than it hurts him. Every once in a while, the state suffers an attack of excessive sensitivity regarding its visitors. In 2002, it was Romanian flautist Gheorghe Zamfir who was kept out of the country by the Interior Ministry. The interior minister at the time, Eli Yishai, explained that Zamfir had expressed anti-Semitic views and that his entry into Israel would `hurt Holocaust survivors.` Avraham Poraz, who succeeded Yishai, overturned the decision.


When the person refused entry is Jewish, the absurdity is even greater. After all, Finkelstein could realize his right to immigrate to Israel as a Jew, in accordance with the Law of Return. Since he is Jewish and has no criminal past, it is doubtful whether he could be prevented from receiving Israeli citizenship.
The Shin Bet argues that Finkelstein constitutes a security risk. But it is more reasonable to assume that Finkelstein is persona non grata and that the Shin Bet, whose influence has increased to frightening proportions, latched onto his meetings with Hezbollah operatives in order to punish him.


And the decision is all the more surprising when one recalls the ease with which right-wing activists from the Meir Kahane camp - the kind whose activities pose a security threat that no longer requires further proof - are able to enter the country.


The Jerusalem Post reported that:

'American political scientist and fierce critic of Israel, Prof. Norman Finkelstein, was denied entry to Israel and deported from the country early Saturday morning. Officials said that the decision to deport Finkelstein was connected to his anti-Zionist opinions and fierce public criticism of Israel around the world.'


However none of this has deterred David Hirsh's ENGAGE from supporting the ban. It seems that for these hypocrites the only academic freedom that counts is the freedom of settler-colonial academics like Prof. Arnon Sofer of Haifa University who believes that the Arabs pose a 'demographic problem.'


253 comments:

1 – 200 of 253   Newer›   Newest»
Levi9909 said...

Hi Tony

I'll add this to my roundup.

By the way, the engage site is down at the minute so maybe there's a rethink going on as there was with the Defend Tony Greenstein post and the Littlejohn posts.

Cheers

Mark

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mary said...

http://palestinethinktank.com/2008/05/24/israel-arrests-outspoken-academic-norman-finkelstein/

we posted about the arrest and made an action alert and petition the moment it happened. Where were you? Staring at the mirror?

BTW, Finkelstein has been linking articles from our site regularly... yes. the site of Gilad and Mary and Haitham...

No correction will be forthcoming from these fools here who have the nerve to think they have political credibility!

Anonymous said...

But Mary how could you support finkelstein if you're a racist who hates all Jews? Ummm I’m confused

Milton-Keynes Socialists for Pluralism

mary said...

I think it's time to get Shraga Elam in here! He's the one who's against the Boycott, not Gilad. As well, Finkelstein has written me some of the must humourous emails I own with his own views on Shraga.

I think maybe Tony has to tie in Engage with my name because he'd be too embarassed mentioning how many times the JPUKers try to write there. I have nothing to do with it, but Mr Robinson of Milton Keynes does, and both of them make jokes about Churches in the Middle Ages and things...

what a strange strange web you weave, when first you try to deceive!

Regarding Rance, is he going to act just like Tony and ask an organisation that exists to be useful to te Palestinians to do his political bidding, exactly like Tony does with Unions, getting them to drop Redress and harass others who support Gilad and I? This is an abuse of tolerance of people, but they don't seem to notice it.

Jew Against Anti-Semitism said...
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Anonymous said...

Just for accuracy's sake, where is Gilad Atzmon's fierce support of Engage. Provide it in black on white, unless you don't mind people thinking you are on drugs.

Jews For Justice said...
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mary said...

GOOD GOD! Stop her!! Ellen Rohlfs just signed another petition!!! She surely must be mad, being concerned about the rights of a Palestinian as well as a jewish american academic. (When Hayo Meyer and Ismail Zayid sign, look out world!)

http://www.petitiononline.com/k1h2a3l4/petition.html

Tony Greenstein said...

Yes Ellen Rohlf's obvious gone up in the world if she's signed a petition about the rights of a Palestinian and an anti-Zionist Jews. It's certainly better than a petition in support of 2 'outstanding personalities' i.e. Rizzo & Atzmon, who can't take criticism from other anti-Zionists.

I'm very pleased that Mary has done something when NF got arrested. Whether it is something to post action alerts about, in comparison with what is happening to the Palestinians of Gaza for example is a matter of judgement.

But, if this means a change of tack by those who usually attack Jewish anti-Zionists as 'gatekeepers' if they insist on maintaining, unlike Atzmon, that there was a holocaust, then I welcome the change of direction.

Tony G

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joe90 said...

about typhoid mary's 'petition' -
A petition got up by an antisemite who disseminates neo-nazi propaganda is not what I call helping Palestinians at all.

I can just see the look of horror on the Palestinian woman's face when she finds out, and hopes the Israeli authorities never discover who her antisemite friends are, unbeknowest to her. Poor woman. What a situation to be caught in!

Typical of the only kind of support antisemites like rizzo and atzmon can provide for the victims of zionism - support for the Israeli authorities to carry out their crimes against their victims!

As for typhoid mary spouting on about how full her social engagement diary is, and how wonderful her personal correspondence is with the famous -
- well, the fact she seems to have some kind of self-proclaimed personal rapport with Dr Norman Finkelstein (and boasts about it!) only leads me to conclude that she hasn't told him that his parents both got what they deserved at the hands of the nazis.

Everybody who reads and appreciates Dr Finkelstein's great written works knows how much of a motivating factor his parents are to him, and especially their unimaginable experiences during WWII.

typhoid mary rizzo, the next time you choose to go hob-nobbing with Dr Finkelstein let him know his parents didn't do enough to make the reasonable and sane members of the Nazi Party happy will you - and that they only had themselves to blame.

These are your views typhoid mary -so remember and tell Dr Finkelstein them and see how many seconds this wonderful relationship you boast about, lasts.

A good decent man like Dr Finkelstein and that Palestinian women whom antisemitic typhpoid mary has set up a 'petition' for - all victims of her antisemitic plague sickness.


ps
AZaAS,
Don't even bother with this racist non-entity hasbara parrot 'avraham'

If it's who I think it is, he'll be posting child porn sites to AZaAS soon enough

pps

joe90 said...

Regarding Rance, is he going to act just like Tony and ask an organisation that exists to be useful to te Palestinians to do his political bidding, exactly like Tony does with Unions, getting them to drop Redress and harass others who support Gilad and I? This is an abuse of tolerance of people, but they don't seem to notice it.

Sorry, I missed this bit that reveals the usual level of rizzonian understanding about the world she lives in and how out of touch she is with what real 'solidarity' work actually involves.

This sort of work, of TG's you describe is called 'solidarity work' typhoid mary. It doesn't involve having to have personal relations and having to be nice to people such as Dr Finkelstein and Palestinians.

It doesn't involve getting the Palestinians to support you typhoid mary - it involves getting publicly accountable and important bodies and organisations to support the Palestinians.

It's public work, above board, involving properly constituted organisations with members who are properly accountable to the public authorities for the actions and are also held openly accountable to public opinion at large.

In contrast to your own 'work' typhoid mary - which is just an empty ego-trip of a worthless antisemitic disseminator of neo-nazi propaganda. Of no importance whatsoever, except it damages Palestinian solidarity, which is the only reason decent honest people and organisations take any notice of the existence of racist parasites like you - only in order to get rid of you, out of the Palestinian solidarity campaign, nothing more.

mary said...

I just start reading Joe and have to stop, it's a kind of verbal diarreah, and quite deranged.

Of course, Tony won't alter the post that Gilad and I actually were protesting the Finkelstein arrest before Tony even said "boo", but the lie has to continue...

by the way, Norman Finkelstein signed the petition for Mr Amayreh.... and Tony and Joe didn't. Think about why.... Can't get your name on a petition that will be sent to the Israeli and Palestinian Authorities that criticises them, can you now?

May your slurfest continue! It takes alot of your energy and that is good for the Palestinian cause.

mary said...

"...who can't take criticism from other anti-Zionists."

Criticism is fine, lies and slurs are different. Did you see how easy it is to debunk most of what you say? You lie and won't even correct it, and this must be the tenth time or more JUST on this blog!

When is Shraga going to get criticism from you? Or Brian, the Engage and Anti-Boycott comrades you hang out with who have made comments that are truly beyond the pale about Palestinians, Christians and Muslims... as well as about NK people... It seems they support only those just like themselves, and expect a SOLIDARITY GROUP to do their bidding. Will they? But, someone who has weird ideas about you regarding Palestinian "peoplehood", a word you used first, but Joe likes to play around with, is not surprising.

Too bad you never got any support from Palestinians... or from Finkelstein... why not reflect upon the reason why... They have you sussed out, if they even know who you are!

joe90 said...

..Gilad and I actually were protesting the Finkelstein arrest before Tony..
- You get a Blue Peter badge, so what.

Can't get your name on a petition that will be sent to the Israeli and Palestinian Authorities that criticises them, can you now?
- If you read my criticisms antisemitic typhoid mary, you'll understand why your worthless petition is a poisoned chalice.

I don't associate with antisemitic scum who disseminate neo-nazi propaganda typhoid mary - otherwise I'd be infected to.

That is one of the ways I help Palestinians and others who suffer from racists like you.

Israeli authorities are going to take notice of petitions by antisemites on behalf of Palestinians. I'm absolutely sure they are - all the more proof they need in order to persecute Palestinians!

The thing is, I know you are a racist whose racism helps Israel exterminate Palestine and Palestinians all the more efficiently - these other innocent people who sign your worthless antisemitic-tainted offerings don't

Hence, one of the reasons I invited you to let Dr Norman Finkelstein know that you hold his parents responsible for what happened to them during WWII, and not Hitler and the Nazis.

When he finds out, we'll see how many seconds it takes Dr Finkelstein to completely part company with your fragrant presence, typhoid mary.

joe90 said...

I'll leave the fact for others to dwell on that, according to the antisemite atzmon becuase Norman Finkelstein is Jewish he is also, therefore, a zionist.

This is all part of the world of typhoid mary whom she accuses others of indulging in a 'slurfest' merely for repeating her own proven views.

mary said...

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1723

gosh, check it out... NF put up the petition I wrote directly on his site, fancy that.

and... so what about Tony's post being a bald faced lie? Doesn't double standards and backing a liar bother you at night?

Racist? I'm racist? Where? oh, come up with the statements, if you can. It's Tony who has made some unsavoury ones.

Yes! Be a good boy now and Report me to NF, laugh yourself out of town!!! you have a load of time to spare, but are afraid of signing a petition that the Israeli authorities are going to see. HM, good to know!!

joe90 said...

typhoid mary's ego's speechless with admiration for herself!

Haven't you told Dr Finkelstein yet that, according to your neo-nazi propaganda typhoid mary, his parents had it coming to them during WWII?

I'm sure the Israeli authorities are going to have a whole load of fun when they reveal the antisemitic pedigree and neo-nazi credentials of some of Dr Finkelstein's unvetted associates.

Taking advantage of an honest decent individual - how proud you antisemites must be.

I'm sure you aren't going to tell him the truth about yourself, I know that much typhoid mary.

As Dr Finkelstien is Jewish, typhoid mary, doesn't that automatically mean, according to antisemitic atzmon-in-his-giladness, he's also a zionist too?

REJ GOCH said...

Greenstein's original post contains an outright lie which Mary Rizzo immmediately exposed. How do Greenstein and his acolytes respond? Not by apologising, not by correcting the post, but with the usual torrent of abuse.

joe90 said...

How ironic it seems that Norman Finkelstein has fallen for real antisemites posing as friends of Palestinians.
He famously warned about the dangers of zionists continually smearing anyone with legitimate criticisms of the Israeli government as antisemites would make it more difficult to identify real antisemitism when it did turn up.

Mind you, if typhoid mary's claims are true about the fraud she is committing on an unsuspecting Norman Finkelstein, then all the bigger platform to expose her antisemitism.


someone who has weird ideas about you regarding Palestinian "peoplehood", a word you used first, but Joe likes to play around with, is not surprising.
- It's typhoid know-nothing mary rizzo who has the wierd ideas about the history and development of Palestinian national consciousceness, if memory serves me right. She knows nothing about it.
typhoid mary's memory is selective and/or defect just like her history of Palestine and the Levant.


ps
rej goch, with his usual torrent of nothingnesss in particular -where's this revolutionary cv of yours rej, by which you claim to legitimise all your pronouncements?

For what its worth know-nothing rej goch - atzmon, in effect, supports the continuing boycott of Palestinians by supporting zionists and those who are against an academic boycott of Israeli institutional academia.
This is the simplest of deductions to make of antisemitic atzmon's charges that supporting the Palestinian BDS/academic boycott is 'book burning'.
Although I'm sure know-nothing atzmon hadn't quite figured that bit out when he opened his thick antisemitic gob.
Mind you, his interviewer wasn't much better than he was. I wouldn't expect typhoid mary to be able to work on such high an intellectual plane as thinking through the simplest of atzmon's ego-tripping antisemitic drivel.

atzmon, if we are to take him seriously, also blames Norman Finkelstein for being a zionist for the simple reason Dr Finkelstein is Jewish - or don't you read atzmon's antisemitic twaddle rej?

joe90 said...

All of which leaves us with the simple task of adding up how many contradictions rizzo-atzmon have involved themselves in, by getting a Jew to host their material on his avowedly and unashamedly Jewish-oriented website?

Or is it the fact that rizzo-atzmon don't really care about or understand the gibbersih they spout regarding Jewish folks and Judiasm?

Which would mean that they don't take the plight of Palestinians serioulsy either.

Anything for a bit of cheap publicity and ego-tripping - and all rizzo-atzmon's precious principles about Jews and their Judeo-centric-ness go out the window in an instant.

So Jews can be involved in Palestinian solidarity as 'Jews' then, is what rizzo-atzmon are now saying - and everything they have ever spouted about Jews being zionists, and that they shouldn't be allowed to play any part in the Palestinian solidarity campaign is a load of crap, just like them.

REJ GOCH said...

Joe Kane, as usual, evades the issue. Having been shown up as a barefaced liar, Greenstein hasn't got the decency to own up and say sorry. As for Kane, the record must be stuck. Faced with the clear cut exposure of Greenstein's lie, Kane reverts to the usual torrent of insults, regurgitated and long since discredited smears rather than face up to TG being caught with his pants down.

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joe90 said...

rej non-entity
which lie is this you keep claiming hasn't been answered?

..regurgitated and long since discredited smears..
- Break a personal habit rej rubbish, and give me the evidence for this claim of yours.

By the way, break another personal habit and let's have this revolutionary cv of yours mr 'international socialist' which you claim validates your endless witterings?

Master McGrath said...

Ah, Rej Goch king of the vacuum has been swept here with a tide of Holocaust Deniers... and isn't the slightest bit embarrassed by his fellow flotsam and jetsam.

Strange state of affairs for a "revolutionary socialist" to be in.

I wouldn't even waste your time Joe. You'll get more credibility out a North Korean press officer.

Apparently Tony clearly surmising/conjecturing something has transmuted into a "deliberate lie" in Goch's fetid imagination.

The problem is that what Tony said is still essentially true and one act out of character doesn't wipe all else from the pages of history.

But it conveniently slips Goch's mind that Rizzo-Atzmon have made their position clear on Jews and how welcome they are in the PSM.

And Mary's ego is back posting about how great it is again...

"The more things change..."

Tony Greenstein said...

Sorry I haven't been following this. Some of Atzmon's supporters or the man himself has been posting comments querying the existence of Auschwitz etc. so they have gone I'm afraid. S/he must have mistaken this for Rizzo's blog!

Yes I don't know what lies I've supposed to have told. I can only assume that it is the association between Atzmon and Engage. Well the evidence is quite clear:

i. Atzmon opposes an academic boycott, not because it might do more harm than good, not because he doesn't like boycotts or cultural ones in particular, not because he isn't a hardline anti-Zionist and still has illusions in peace - which are the common reactions. Atzmon opposes it because it is 'book burning'. Now who do we associate with book burning? Well even Martin Heidigger opposed that as Rector of Freiburg, so it is clear that those who support an academic boycott are hard-line Nazis and anti-Semites.

ii. What is the position of Engage on the Boycott? That it is anti-Semitic and targets Jews in much the same way as virulent anti-Semites do.

iii. Guest poster and blogger on Engage is none other than Mikey Mikey Ezra. Now I've posted elsewhere already the tie up with Atzmon, whereby the latter thanks Mikey profusely for digging for dirt against me in order to ward off charges of anti-Semitism. Just to refresh memories:

'‘Mikey, I hope you do not mind me saying that, but your contribution for the pls solidarity movement is priceless. It is crucial that we all know about the racist record of this Greenpiss, a man who was banned time after time for being a racist and an anti Semite!

I really want to believe that this revolting violent man will feel some shame and take some time off to think about it all. But I doubt it.’
Gilad Atzmon | 03.04.07 - 10:46 am | #
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/thecutter/117192641046077827/
Again, again, I believe that Zionists like you can cope with philosophical thinking because Zionism is a Jewish ideological stand. RK, Ben Gurion and later Begin and Shmuel Tamir were operating within different interpretation of the very the same ideology. The political and legal aspects are nothing but a cover up of the real meaning of this saga.

You can cope with it, Greenie and Brenner can't.

However, Good luck with Greenie and thanks for all the info you gave us about this low being.
Peace is the way forward
G
Gilad Atzmon | 03.08.07 - 4:02 pm|'

It's quite clear isn't it now?

And speaking of academic boycotts I note that UCU has passed a good motion again today, circumscribed by the threats of legal action from the Zionists, encouraging an individual boycott. I assume that Atzmon will be joining the Zionists in another attack on the book burners? Especially as his hate targets like Sue Blackwell are leading it.

As for Norman Finkelstein. I think we were onto it as soon as anyone but it really doesn't matter who got their first. I'm pleased Mary is opposed to what happened because Atzmon is quite clear. Finkelstein (who doesn't 'dare' criticise the holocaust deniers according to Atzmon) is a worse Zionist than the Zionists because in his very act of denying being a Zionist whilst speaking as a Jew he actually reaffirms his Zionism! Yes I know it's nonsense but just about everything from Atzmon is.

And then Mary tells us that
'Norman Finkelstein signed the petition for Mr Amayreh.... and Tony and Joe didn't. Think about why.... ' What petition for Amayreh? I sign lots of petitions, including one for NF. I haven't seen one for Mr Amayreh. Maybe Mary's signed the one for Tubas? This is just childishness. There are many petitions and unless there are hidden motives or its really trying to get people to attack others in the Palestine solidarity movement I'd have no problem signing it if it aims at the Zionists and not anti-Zionists.

After having attacked people as liars etc. Goch then accuses me of abusing others! I don't know why the self-proclaimed revolutionary comes here but if you want to argue politically with me or anyone else, then that is fine. If all you want to do is abuse others and call them 'liars' then I'll delete your posts. So it's up to you. Argue your corner, but don't name call.

Far from my being exposed with my pants down for having told untruths about Atzmon and Engage I am perfectly capable of defending what I wrote (see above). It's just that you don't disagree. Disagreement doesn't mean lying.

Tony

joe90 said...

Sorry I haven't been following this.
- There is nothing much to follow TG. You haven't missed anything much. Most of the comments are mine and merely observations I thought might be useful as comments.

The petition for Ms Khalid Amayreh has been got up by typhoid mary herself, but I am wary of getting involved in anything to do with antisemitic poisoned chalices.

Yes I don't know what lies I've supposed to have told.
- Likewise TG.
I am often confused myself, about these claims made about lies being told. I presume I have answered what are only vague unspecific charges, only to be accused of deliberatley avoiding answering whatever the charge is.


I'd just like to highlight some of typhoid mary's freudian slips -

But, someone who has weird ideas about you regarding Palestinian "peoplehood", a word you used first, but Joe likes to play around with, is not surprising.
29 May 2008 08:07
- Typhoid mary can't bring herself to admit her publicly proven lack of knowledge about the history and development of Palestinian nationalism. Instead, she focuses on the guilt of others over their alleged playing with a particular word.
I thought word-play was what atzmon's articles mostly consisted of, when they weren't either jew-baiting or indulging in postmodern mumbo-jumbo.

Too bad you never got any support from Palestinians... or from Finkelstein... why not reflect upon the reason why... They have you sussed out, if they even know who you are!
29 May 2008 08:07
- Here typhoid mary admits the truth of the charge she isn't interested in supporting Palestinians but in getting them to support her.

Racist? I'm racist? Where? oh, come up with the statements, if you can.
29 May 2008 09:26
- Typhoid Mary claims the victims of Hitler are to blame for Hitler's crimes, not Hitler - but typhoid mary claims she isn't a racist.

all the best azsas!

REJ GOCH said...
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The Men in White Coats said...

"If you are that interested in my cv contact your friends in Special Branch!"

Ding dong! Nutter alert!

mary said...

Not only is Rej correct, we (this means Gilad and I) also reported on the Raytheon 9 before you did, back in February, two weeks ago and today... you must be following what we do very carefully so that you can copy it!

We also have our source of the UCU who is giving us the information, posted about it before you did...

Not a word about Shraga Elam, your busom buddy and liar brother, supporting the boycott. Or Brian Robinson being in Engage and the Euston Manifesto??? A little too close for comfort? And, it seems Sue put the Nazi warning that she then had to take down, so saying Gilad is her enemy kind of shifts the cards around. But, do people cram the rooms to hear SB talk about Palestine, or GA? The answer is clear as to who is considered to be an expert in the field.

As to NF, he signed the petition, circulated it, put it on his site and told me he'd put what I'd like to give him up on his site, just to ask.

So, I think liar is an appropriate word!!

Tony Greenstein said...

As I said, I will delete those who are only posting to abuse others. However since Goch makes one valid point amidst the abuse I copy his e-mail below (minus abuse!).

No, I realise subtlety or irony is lost on the Atzmonites but I ended the quote below with an exclamation mark, thus emphasising that I didn't believe even the terrible two would go so far as to openly support the arrest and deportation of Finkelstein.

HOWEVER the LOGIC (if that's the right word!) of what Atzmon says, and Rizzo of course supports, that to be Jewish and proclaim as such, means one is therefore automatically a Zionist. Hence the logic of Rizzo's position is to support the deportation of Finkelstein. But logic of course has never been her strong point.

As for Rizzo herself:

i. If Mary had actually read the Raytheon article she would see we have sourced it from the Outrage blog. The person who runs this blog is an Irish socialist and republican and is a personal contact/friend of Eammon McCann who is one of those arrested. These people would have nothing to do with racists Mary.

ii. It is immaterial who did what first. Blogging isn't, as far as I'm concerned, the real world. We do pickets, demonstrations, motions to union conferences. So whether Mary, who spends her life on the net got in first, who cares? When we get moving we have an impact. Hence why the Zionists attack us (my complaint about Littlejohn to Ofcom re the Channel 4 programme was in last week's Jewish Chronicle) and ignore Rizzo/Atzmon other than to point out that their anti-Semitism is typical for the PS movement.

iii. And now we have got the Boycott movement in academia in motion for the third time (and Rizzo has a contact there! The uninfluential Oren ben-Dor) will Atzmon continue to call an academic boycott book burning and will Rizzo support him in this too? Questions, questions, but never any answers from our 'outstanding personalities'.

Tony Greenstein


REJ GOCH said...
"Last weekend, Norman Finkelstein, the anti-Zionist Jewish academic and author, was arrested at Israel's Ben Gurion airport by the Shabak secret police, detained for 24 hours and then deported. No doubt Gilad Atzmon & his devoted groupie, Mary Rizzo, also support this, since being an anti-Zionist Jew, Finkelstein must also be a Zionist according to Mr Jazzmon!"
... speculative economy withthe truth? As Mary Rizzo had picked up this issue and acted on it before TG both you and he should eat your words, but of course you can't do that because you are always right. If you are that interested in my cv contact your friends in Special Branch!

REJ GOCH said...

This last post has been edited without my consent. The words "Lies or" have been omitted before the phrase "speculative economy with the truth?"

Tony Greenstein said...

He's a clever fellow is Richard Jones (Goch). Unfortunately, despite having been a schoolteacher he has difficulty in comprehending simple English.

I wrote:
'As I said, I will delete those who are only posting to abuse others. However since Goch makes one valid point amidst the abuse I copy his e-mail below (minus abuse!).'

In case Goch doesn't get it, people spraying about the allegation of 'liar' are being abusive and either the whole comment or the specific abuse will be deleted. That is what happened!

I don't need your consent either Mr Goch. One of the conditions of posting is that you agree to the terms of the blog or otherwise you will suffer editing, as happens on the Guardian's Comment is Free.

So if you have something to say without using abuse or calling people liars or posting holocaust denial stuff, which some of Rizzo's/Atzmons supporters are trying to do, then it will be posted unamended.

Tony Greenstein

REJ GOCH said...
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joe90 said...

If you care to look back through this 'discussion' you will find that you have not been so fussy with the tirades of Mr. Kane.
rej zero,
for the umpteenth time, instead of continually making a fool of yourself please point out to me where I am wrong and, crucially, correct my mistakes for me.

You truly are an acolyte of know-nothing antisemitic typhoid mary rizzo

REJ GOCH said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
REJ GOCH said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
joe90 said...

You persistently claim others are wrong and you are right yet persistently fail to tell others what these errors are or to provide the necessary corrections - is this another one of my lies or is this the truth rej goch?

ps
I'll ask you yet again rej goch,
you claim I am wrong, so please point out where I am mistaken and tell me what the actual truth is.

Master McGrath said...

Rej said "If you care to look back through this 'discussion' you will find that you have not been so fussy with the tirades of Mr. Kane. Why don't you edit their posts?"


Our survey said "Because he isn't a vacuous twat who has nothing to contribute!"

REJ GOCH said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Master McGrath said...

Come up with some new material and try again Rej!

REJ GOCH said...

As you are too much of a coward to allow me to reply to you on this site and as you continue to allow McGarth and Kane freedom to abuse then I will have to resort to other means to expose you. Don't think I'm going away.

Master McGrath said...

Rej you aren't "replying", you are merely repeating the same baseless tosh over and over and over.

To reply you have to dialectically engage the other person's viewpoint not just drone on in a mantra.

Tony Greenstein said...

I haven't replied to Goch's comments, which are being printed, as long as they are not abusive. If you can contain yourself from spluttering liar and instead concentrate on why you think we are telling lies etc. then that is fine by me. But insinuating Mossad agency links, because eg. I ask for proof of what you yourself have alleged re your 30 years of revolutionary activity is an example of this paranoia.

I have no problem with Richard Jones/Goch replying or making comments here but I have and will delete abusive Zionists and likewise abusive Atzmonites.

Tony Greenstein

REJ GOCH said...

I have not posted anything abusive. For abusive look at McGrath and Kane to whom you allow any extreme. I have said that what you printed in the original blog on Finkelstein with regard to Gilad Atzmon and Mary Rizzo is not true and I have explained why. I have given you the opportunity to apologise. For your information I have a complete record of the posts you have deleted and I am quite happy for anyone to compare it with the filth you routinely allow. Please get your chronology right. The joke about the Brighton Mossad cell came before your obsession with my cv. For some reason you appear to be very sensitive about the joke and whereas I can ignore your nasty jibes about me one moment being a'holocaust denier' and on the other hand a Zionist stooge ( because anybody who knows me would find these smears to be totally ridiculous ) you are very touchy when criticised for what you say.

Master McGrath said...

Rej seems to think this is a hotel.

All he does it turn up accuse as all of being liars (neatly evading any substantiation) and then complains endlessly about the quality of service.

This is how it works Rej you are rude to us we hide your posts and if we are rude to you back we don't hide our own posts.

I'll add to Tony's observation: You were the one who stomped through the door shouting "Mossad".

You thereby threw the rules of engegment away and any right to polite engagement with it.

And since you flat out refuse to engage with us, you are by fact nothing but a timewaster.

Recap:

If you are rude you will be hidden
If you are repeative you will be hidden
If you make claims that you don't back up, you will be hidden

And to be blunt if I merely feel like, you will be hidden- because thus far you have added nothing to the debate that would distort the thread i it disappeared. We could as easily replace you with a 'Virtual Rej' script which has the same stock phrases in each post.

You associate with Holocuast deniers as a peer: expect to be regarded as one. You don't like; distance yourself from them.

Tony Greenstein said...

I think we are going to have to disagree Mr Jones as to whether or not you have posted anything abusive but references to Mossad/crypto Zionists and all the other Atzmon stuff are, in my book, abusive.

I would though hope that everyone will not be abusive, regardless of the quality or not of their contribution.

Yes you said what I printed re Atzmon/Rizzo in respect of Finkelstein was not true. I disagree and I have explained why it is not true. I said, again, that the LOGIC of what they have previously said about anti-Zionist Jews would mean that they welcome Finkelstein's expulsion and arrest. After all, according to Atzmon, anyone identifying themselves as Jewish and anti-Zionist is in fact the worst Zionist!

Now I know that is nonsense but that is Atzmon's position in essays such as 'not in my name' 'third category' etc. It is a Zionist position so if he was logical, which he isn't, he would welcome Finkelstein's deportation just as he opposes the academic boycott as 'book burning' (which goes further than the most rabid Zionists).

So why should I apologise? For telling the truth? It is Atzmon who is abusive, continually and repeatedly. The man is incapable of arguing something without resorting to abuse. It was because of my political criticisms of him that he thought that an old criminal record of mine was relevant to his current arguments. That shows that when push comes to shove, Atzmon just doesn't have what it takes.

And yes, you can record all your comments that have been deleted but we will still disagree!!

Now if you are seriously interested in debating fine. Tell me whether or not you disagree or agree with the sentiments in 'Not in my name' by Atzmon because that is what my original comments were based on.

Tony Greenstein

REJ GOCH said...

However you try to explain away your post, you were proved wrong and should face up to it. You claimed that Gilad Atzmon and Mary Rizzo would behave in a certain way when ( and you could easily have found this out ) their previous actions had already contradicted you. I asked you to compare what I said with the abuse ( and they admit this themselves ) regularly handed out by McGrath and Kane. This is how they explained how this site is managed...
"This is how it works Rej you are rude to us we hide your posts and if we are rude to you back we don't hide our own posts."
So what they are saying is that your rules about deleting abusive posts don't apply to your own supporters. What is more, there is quite a difference between making a judgement and giving a reason for it and the endless name calling that McGrath and Kane gratify themselves with. Anyone with an ounce of self-respect would tell these two that their support was embarrassing and not wanted. As for your over-sensitivity to the Mossad quip, haven't you just proved my point yet again and as far as your desire to cut out repetitious posts is concerned, how much longer are you going to let M and G witter on about a cv which they are never going to get and which nobody but them cares about? Anybody who wants to know about me can go to my blog and read what I have to say for themselves and guess what - they can make up their own minds without being told what to think by you.

Tony Greenstein said...

I would ask everyone, including Joe and Mr McGrath not to be abusive but given the level of abuse that your associates have directed at people, and I gave a specific example which you chose to ignore from Atzmon, I don't think you can complain since exactly the same kind of moderating and worse emanates from Ms Rizzo.

You made the boast yet you have proved bashful about substantiating it. Can't imagine why.

The thing you say about my claims about how Atzmon & Rizzo would behave just demonstrate that you don't have a great grasp of irony. I didn't say what Rizzo & co. woudl do I said:

'No doubt Gilad Atzmon & his devoted groupie, Mary Rizzo, also support this, since being an anti-Zionist Jew, Finkelstein must also be a Zionist according to Mr Jazzmon!'

For the last time, because you seem to be posing as deliberately thick, IF Atzmon/Rizzo were to live up to what they proclaim, i.e. anti-Zionist Jews are Zionists, then they should not object to Finkelstein's deportation.

Of course even their obtuse heads realise what political damage it would do, and as Finkelstein is a star they wouldn't behave so stupidly. I was pointing out the LOGIC (or lack) of their position.

Not that it matters because Finkelstein, despite Mary's attempts to insinuate herself in his good books, doesn't think highly of the Atzmon/Shamir brigade. Unsurprisingly because anyone on the left who works with these vipers is no socialist.

Tony G

Tony Greenstein said...

I would ask everyone, including Joe and Mr McGrath not to be abusive but given the level of abuse that your associates have directed at people, and I gave a specific example which you chose to ignore from Atzmon, I don't think you can complain since exactly the same kind of moderating and worse emanates from Ms Rizzo.

You made the boast yet you have proved bashful about substantiating it. Can't imagine why.

The thing you say about my claims about how Atzmon & Rizzo would behave just demonstrate that you don't have a great grasp of irony. I didn't say what Rizzo & co. woudl do I said:

'No doubt Gilad Atzmon & his devoted groupie, Mary Rizzo, also support this, since being an anti-Zionist Jew, Finkelstein must also be a Zionist according to Mr Jazzmon!'

For the last time, because you seem to be posing as deliberately thick, IF Atzmon/Rizzo were to live up to what they proclaim, i.e. anti-Zionist Jews are Zionists, then they should not object to Finkelstein's deportation.

Of course even their obtuse heads realise what political damage it would do, and as Finkelstein is a star they wouldn't behave so stupidly. I was pointing out the LOGIC (or lack) of their position.

Not that it matters because Finkelstein, despite Mary's attempts to insinuate herself in his good books, doesn't think highly of the Atzmon/Shamir brigade. Unsurprisingly because anyone on the left who works with these vipers is no socialist.

Tony G

Tony Greenstein said...

Goch

I am in favour of everyone not being abusive, Mr McGrath and Joe included. However given the level of abuse that we have experienced, myself in particular, which I gave examples of in my previous post from Atzmon, and your inability to condemn that, then you should not be surprised if you are treated more strictly.

Irony is clearly not your forte. I wrote 'No doubt Gilad Atzmon & his devoted groupie, Mary Rizzo, also support this, since being an anti-Zionist Jew, Finkelstein must also be a Zionist according to Mr Jazzmon!' Of course I didn't expect the terrible 2 (outstanding personalities!) to support the deportation but that was the LOGIC of their political position. Finkelstein's a star of the movement so of course they won't alienate him although he doesn't think much of the Atzmon/Shamir brigade.

The only reason I picked up on your claim to 30 years of being a revolutionary is because you made it. Since you can't substantiate it and because noone else can I'll take it that it was a piece of puff.

As far as I'm concerned if someone works with racists and anti-Semites then they are not on the left.

I suggest next time you read Atzmon's 'Not in my name' and then let us know if you agree with its repeated assertions that to assert you are a Jewish anti-Zionist means you are a Zionist!

Tony G

joe90 said...

Pardon me
but this is getting no where.

Goch prevaricates and blusters, fishing around for excuses to complain about and trying to get people to libel themselves by calling others 'nazis'.

Where in goch's endless litany of complaints has he answered a straightforward question straightforwardly?

Here is goch's first comment on this thread -
Greenstein's original post contains an outright lie which Mary Rizzo immmediately exposed. How do Greenstein and his acolytes respond? Not by apologising, not by correcting the post, but with the usual torrent of abuse.
29 May 2008 11:16

Accused of lying - referred to as acolytes - accused of not being civilised - the pot calling the kettle black.

goch has been corrected and still he persists in his endless whinging - and not a word about rizzo and her behaviour, who kicked things off in this thread, and then goch joined claiming others aren't as white as him and rizzo.

goch defends antisemites and holocaust justifiers such as rizzo and atzmon but yet, he gives us to believe, he is just a wee sensitive put upon soul!
In his long and (non-existent) career as a socialist revolutionary, goch is claiming he has never encountered the normal revulsion expressed by left-wingers when faced with racism of any sort. This is all something new to him, apparantly.

goch,
feel free to reiterate any answers you claim to have given to straightforward questions.

I asked you 2/3 days ago -
You persistently claim others are wrong and you are right yet persistently fail to tell others what these errors are or to provide the necessary corrections - is this another one of my lies or is this the truth rej goch?
- and I'm still waiting for an answer.

the abuse ( and they admit this themselves ) regularly handed out by McGrath and Kane
- not answering people in a discussion thread is abusive and dishonest, and to claim you can't answer because you are being abused is just more of your abuse of privilege, goch.

And I'm not a moderator of this blog goch, so cut out your abuse of blaming me for stuff I'm not responsible for.

all the best azsas!

REJ GOCH said...

McGrath you are responsible for what you write. Your idea of what is abusive and what is not is bizarre to say the least. You keep on demanding that I should defend myself, but I haven't done anything that requires me to do this. You want to know about my politics, well I've told you where you and anyone else can find out, so stop boring everyone to death. TG - I read your explanation of your comments in the introduction to the Finkelstein blog. Just because I don't accept your explanation doesn't justify you saying I'm "thick". It just seems to me that you are trying to wriggle out of being caught out so badly. You would have done better to admit your mistake and apologised. Instead you have made matters worse and the more you write in this vein the worse it gets. You say that my posts were deleted because I was abusive ( which I deny ). I pointed out that K and M were far worse and yet their abuse was not taken off. Others may have been abusive, but that has nothing to do with me and you can't use it against me. All I asked you to explain was if you are removing abuse from this site, then why are M and K's comments still untouched? The only relevance of my saying how long I had been a revolutionary socialist was to let you know that I had been around long enough to have seen all the dirty tricks employed by sectarians in an effort to discredit their opponents and you are certainly a master of the entire armoury. I don't have to prove myself to you and the fact that you constantly demand to see my credentials is more a reflection of your own insecurity. It looks as if you're trying to put the heat on me to avoid dealing with what I put to you. You are right about one thing though, my main aim in pursuing this argument is to get you to condemn yourself out of your own mouth. You are all being most obliging, so I must thank you for that.

Tony Greenstein said...

Ok. Let me make it clear I want noone abusing anyone. However as I've said already, the abuse has come from the Jew baiters and conspiracy theorists. I mentioned how Atzmon thinks a shoplifting conviction from over a quarter of a century ago is somehow relevant to a political argument today. Goch hasn't commented on this. Maybe he would like to say where he stand, because if he backs up Atzmon then he is a bourgeois moralist and not a revolutionary socialist.

I am not at all interested in Goch's antecedents and have made no inquiries into him, unlike say Atzmon into myself, by getting a well-known Zionist anorak called Mikey to conduct the 'investigation'. Oh it's all on record.

I didn't say Goch was 'thick' because he didn't accept my explanation but because he adamantly refuses to engage with it, instead calling for an 'apology' as if I could ever owe Atzmon an apology.

But I'll try again and let us see if Richard Jones is capable of dealing with the politics of the disagreement.

In his essay 'Not in my name' and other writings as well, Atzmon says:

'While Zionism appointed itself from its early days to talk and to act on behalf of the Jewish people, it is actually the sporadic rebels who criticise Zionism in the name of their Jewish secular identity who affirm the Zionist ‘totalitarian’ agenda. Bizarrely enough, it is the Jewish Left which turns Zionism into the official voice of the Jewish people…. by fighting Zionism in the name of their Jewish identity they approve Zionism. They must fail to realise that their form of resistance contributes to the labelling of the entire Jewish people as war criminals….
Accordingly, if we regard Jewish identity as a national definition then the label ‘Jew for peace’ or ‘Jew for human rights’ makes sense. We would refer to the above dove as a man who holds left-wing views and who happens to be Jewish by nation. However, it doesn’t take a genius to realise that by doing so we accept the notion of Jewish nationalism. In other words, we become devoted Zionists.
Jews cannot criticise Zionism in the name of their ethnic belonging because such an act is in itself an approval of Zionism.

Practically speaking, Jews can’t really oppose Zionism unless they adopt an alternative view that questions the Zionist totality.

http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/notin.html

Now anyone who knows anything about Zionism knows that it claims that Jews form one people, a nation. Atzmon does that explicitly. He says 'if' we accept being Jewish as a national definition. The whole point is that 'we' don't accept this. Because we are not Zionists. Atzmon does. Hence why his nonsense about if you speak up as a Jew you are automatically a Zionist falls flat. He asserts what he is trying to prove. It really is that simple.

So does Goch accept this Zionist nonsense of Atzmon? if he does then he can't complain when I say the next logical thing for him todo is to denounce Norman Finkelstein as a Zionist, because he maintains his being Jewish. indeed Atzmon has already criticised him for mentioning the fact that hisparents were holocaust survivors. Atzmon again doesn't get it.

But Goch is an independent man so who knows, maybe he'll have a rethink!

Tony G

REJ GOCH said...

What kind of logic concludes that this is Zionism? Can't you make up your mind? One second you accuse people of being anti-semitic, the next you perform linguistic acrobatics to try and prove they are Zionists. I personally couldn't care less about past convictions, it's the nature of your obsessive attacks on Atzmon and Rizzo that concerns me. When I observe Atzmon attracting huge audiences and constantly supporting the Palestinian cause then your constant attacks are seen in their proper context. You stand side by side with the Zionist extremists who are trying to silence him. Calling me thick because I don't agree with you isn't going to impress anyone.

Tony Greenstein said...

My dear Goch. If I called you thick because you disagreed with me then yes, you would be right. However I call you thick or quite different reasons.

What is one to make of the statement that Atzmon can't be anti-Semitic because he attracts 'huge audiences'? Uuh? He did that in Germany a few years ago and half the audience walked out when he said that the Holocaust can't be forensically proven.

Clearly Goch is a Johny come lately. It's not verbal gymnastics to accuse Atzmon of being a Zionist and an anti-Semite. Historically they have always been twins of a kind. As Isaac Deutscher noted, when the anti-Semites were shouting 'Jews to Palestine' the Zionists were in full agreement!

Indeed the reaction of Jews historically to Zionism has been that it is the appearance of anti-Semitism in Jewish garb, to quote the German anti-Zionist Committee. It is quite compatible to therefore say Atzmon is both. His equation of being Jewish with being Zionist in his essay is a Zionist argument, indeed it is one of the only Zionist arguments! And of course it is also anti-Semitic because it associates Jews with what Israel does.

I'm beginning to realise why, after 30 years on the 'revolutionary left' noone has heard of Goch. Can I suggest another 30 year sabbatical?

Tony

REJ GOCH said...

For someone who is so quick to insult me as thick it would be good if you could examine your own 'logic'. You said,
"As Isaac Deutscher noted, when the anti-Semites were shouting 'Jews to Palestine' the Zionists were in full agreement!" You take this to mean that you can be anti-semitic and Zionist at the same time. What it actually means is that anti-semites and Zionists were in agreement on this one issue. If you want to take your argument that anti-semitism and Zionism are one and the same, you're going to have to do better than that! I've noticed that this kind of 'logic' crops up quite often in your writing. You really ought to think before you commit yourself to print.

Tony Greenstein said...

Goch doesn't accept my logic apparently. Well let's have a look at the original quote:

'It should be remembered that the great majority of East European Jews were, up to the outbreak of the second World War} opposed to Zionism... the most fanatical enemies of Zionism were precisely the workers, those who spoke Yiddish... they were the most determined opponents of the idea of an emigration from East Europe to Palestine... in the idea of an evacuation, of an exodus from the countries in which they, had their homes and in which their ancestors had lived for centuries, the anti-Zionists saw an abdication of their rights, a surrender to anti-Semitism. To them anti-Semitism seemed to triumph in Zionism, which recognised the legitimacy and the validity of the old cry ‘Jews get out!' The Zionists were agreeing to get out.'

Isaac Deutscher, 'The Non Jewish Jew ' & Other Essays-The Russian Revolution and the Jewish Question' pp.66/7

It's pretty clear then that Deutscher was saying more than that the anti-Semites and Zionists were agreeing on just this one issue.

And again this is the normal Zionist response. Despite 30 years as a revolutionary, Goch knows next to nothing about Zionism.

I understand the argument well that says that just because a cat and a dog have a tail, doesn't mean cat=dog. But the whole point is that Zionism doesn't just agree with the anti-Semites on just one issue.

The question is why the Zionists believe that Jews should go to Palestine. And their justification is that Jews are strangers, aliens who do not belong in 'other peoples' countries. Indeed they go on to hold that the Jews did indeed have the very faults the anti-Semites said they did.

Since Goch has read nothing that the Zionists themselves say on the matter I'll cite a couple of quotes:

Jacob Klatzkin, who edited the World Zionist Organisation paper, Die Welt from 1909-11 wrote:

'We are in a word naturally foreigners. We are an alien nation in your midst and we want to remain one. An unbridgeable chasm yawns between you and us. A loyal Jew can never be other than a Jewish patriot... We recognise a national unity of Diaspora Jews no matter in which land they may reside... no boundaries can restrain us in... pursuing our own Jewish policy. J Klatzkin, 'Krisis und Entscheidung in Judentum', Berlin 1921, p118 cited in Zionism & Racism p.204 Klaus Hermann, (Crisis ' Decision) see Menhuin pp.482/3

The founder of Political Zionism, Theodore Herzl, confided in his diaries that:
'In Paris..., I achieved a freer attitude towards anti-Semitism, which I now began to understand historically and to pardon. Above all, recognise the emptiness and futility of trying to 'combat' anti-Semitism.' Complete Diaries of Theodore Herzl, p.6

“the anti-Semites will be our most dependable friends... our allies.” Diaries, pp. 83-4.

And the first political Zionist, Moses Hess, was even more candid:

'Jewish noses can't be reshaped and black curly hair can't be changed into blond hair or combed straight by christening. The Jewish race is a basic one and reproduces itself in its integrity... the Jewish type has itself always remained the same throughout the course of the centuries... the Jewish type can't be exterminated.' Moses Hess, Rome & Jerusalem, cited in A Hertzberg, The Zionist Idea, pp.120/1.

So it can be clearly seen that the Zionists and anti-Semites shared a lot more than merely the belief that Jews should settle in Palestine.

And that is why Atzmon can combine anti-Semitism and Zionism so easily.

Tony Greenstein

REJ GOCH said...

The air is full of condescension. The great TG gives me a lecture on Zionism. The fact that Herzl held many views in common with anti-semites still does not equate with Zionism = anti-semitism. You're carrying the self-hating jew thing too far. Zionism was one response to anti-semitism. Internationalism was taken up precisely by those jewish workers who flocked to the banner of socialism. They did not identify themselves firstly as jews but as workers of the world. Of course Zionists and anti-semites share some ideas - a common view on cultural identity, a common view that jews should be somewhere else but that does not nullify their mutual antipathy. It is arrant nonsense that anti-semitism and Zionism are one and the same. You deliberately try to conflate the two for the purposes of your attack, but you rely on the ignorance of others to achieve your aim. No matter how much you try to bury the weakness of your argument with 'learned' texts you can't hide the fact that the argument is flawed at the outset.

Tony Greenstein said...

If I am condescending, but not abusive like your Atzmon friend, it is because you are being deliberately thick.

I didn't say Zionism=Anti-Semitism, rather that they share many things in common, not least a belief that Jews do not belong in the diaspora. They are also petty bourgeois movements and as such a diversion from the class struggle.

I'm well aware that most Jewish workers joined workers organisations such as the Bund, which Atzmon never hesitates to criticise (because he thinks the Zionists got it right) and the Communists. But Atzmon, being contemptuous of class struggle, is of course contemptuous of the Bund.

It's not me that conflated Zionism and anti-Semitism. It was the very Jewish workers that you purport to have supported and identify with. THEY said ZIonism was nothing but the validation of anti-Semitism or have you already forgotten that quote from Isaac Deutscher.

Fact is Goch. Having hitched your wagon to the reactionary train that Atzmon steers you now have to defend all sorts of things, including Zionism.

Tony G

joe90 said...

I see the champions of atzmon in the SWP leadership are taking real pelters -
THIS IS A REAL WITCH HUNT
Andy Newman
Socialist Unity
05 June 2008
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2439

Fancy that,
just like IndyMedia UK - when there is a real bit of democracy about, those microscopic few who support atzmon are shown up as anti-democratic and autocratic, and are nothing to do with anybody really.

REJ GOCH said...

Are you the same Tony Greenstein that wrote to Gilad in these terms?
“Dare I say it, some of your remarks re the holocaust were spot on re the Zionist collaboration with the Nazis.” Very interesting!

Tony Greenstein said...

I think one of the reasons that Goch has never been heard of by anyone except a few anti-Semites is that he has never done anything worthy of mention.

How else do you deal with his latest moronic offering? Did I post, about 3 years ago, something to Atzmon saying right on.

Surprise to say I did. I am an optimist. A believer that every human being, even Goch and Atzmon, might one day wake up to the damage their nonsense does to the Palestinian cause. So when Atzmon began to criticise the Allies for not bombing the rail roads to Auschwitz and got into a spat with Israel Shamir who doesn't believe Auschwitz was anything other than a holiday camp, then yes I wrote to congratulate him and even overegged it knowing full well how bloated was his ego.

Subsequently I've asked him to take the comments down as clearly I was mistaken and nothing has changed in his respect but I tried. Mind in the case of Goch I'm not sure it would be worth trying since he's clearly over the hill and his reactionary politics are too ingrained to be dealt with other than by a lobotomy.

For others there is a 'debate' I have having with 2 Zionist weirdos - Mikey (a Zionist collaborator with Atzmon and another fruit and nutcase - Paul Bogdanor (whose famous father is somewhat more thoughtful!). For anyone wanting to take part it is at:
http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2008/02/14/defend-tony-greenstein?page=1

REJ GOCH said...

Obviously you've had your lobotomy already because you can't even remember the context of your own sycophantic words. The more you rant and insult the more you betray the level of your own weakness. You seem to be overly worried by the fact that no one has heard of me before. Since my ego is not as big as yours, it doesn't worry me. You on the other hand seem to be known for things you would rather keep quiet about.

joe90 said...

atzmon goch says -
You seem to be overly worried by the fact that no one has heard of me before

This is the same atzmon goch who stated -
As a revolutionary socialist of more than 40 years standing, I don't need lectures from those so detached from working class struggle that they have long since forgotten what socialism means.
13 May 2008 21:40
'Gilad Atzmon joins with Antony Julius to attack anti-Zionists'
02 May 2008
azvas blog

Later on the same thread -
As for whether I am a revolutionary socialist or not, I am quite prepared to stand on my record, which you know nothing about. Your opinion on that subject doesn't bother me.
14 May 2008 00:02

Since your ego is smaller than anybody else's atzmon goch, you won't mind providing proof of your revolutionary credentials?

This request seems to bring you over all coy whenever it is put to you although I can see why judging by your piss-poor performance so redolent of atzmon and his antisemitic acolytes.

It's false modesty on your part rej atzmon, not to put your money where your mouth is - especially for someone such as yourself, whose queries have all been answered but they're too full of themselves to acknowledge it, and who have then to resort to the usual atzmon-rizzo blackmail techiques to try to shut people up who are showing them up for the antisemitic idiots that the are.

ps
TG,
on the Media Lens Messege Board there's a notice regarding atzmon's latest outpouring of antisemitic sewage - I just thought you might like to know in case you wanted to leave a reply, or something!!

REJ GOCH said...

Welcome back Joe Kane. This thread is about what TG puts out. If you want to know more about me - go to my blog. I look forward to seeing your learned comments. Meanwhile stick to the point and stop trying to divert the argument away from TG

joe90 said...

No need to welcome me to somewhere that doesn't belong to you rej zero - and no need to re-direct me to anywhere else.

I don't need an intellectual non-entity like you telling me what I'm about - especially one that brags about his political pedigree, of which there isn't a trace, and then demands people are being unreasonable asking for proof of it's actual existence.

Meanwhile stick to the point and stop trying to divert the argument away from TG
- The point has been answered, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to blackmail people about their past. Why else try to blackmail someone if you've already got what you came here for?

Worth recounting what atzmon goch has said on this thread -
...It just seems to me that you are trying to wriggle out of being caught out so badly. You would have done better to admit your mistake and apologised.....The only relevance of my saying how long I had been a revolutionary socialist was to let you know that I had been around long enough to have seen all the dirty tricks employed by sectarians in an effort to discredit their opponents and you are certainly a master of the entire armoury. I don't have to prove myself to you and the fact that you constantly demand to see my credentials is more a reflection of your own insecurity. It looks as if you're trying to put the heat on me to avoid dealing with what I put to you. You are right about one thing though, my main aim in pursuing this argument is to get you to condemn yourself out of your own mouth. You are all being most obliging, so I must thank you for that.
02 June 2008 22:50

This is a perfect description of goch zero to date.

Must be quite galling, goch zero, when you're reduced to the usual atzmon-rizzo tactic of blackmail in order to win your arguments - and its people on azvas who are being accused of being antisocial!

Tony Greenstein said...

I can't imagine what Goch thinks I should apologise for - exposing Atzmon, pillorying Shamir, traducing Rizzo or spending 30+ years supporting the Palestinian struggle, speaking of which I shall be attending the UNISON conference in Bournemouth next week! Whether Palestine is debated I don't know.

Unfortunately Goch, for all his faults as an intellectual lightweight, actually represents the more intellectually advanced of the Atzmonites!! The fact that he has nothing to say should be no surprise to anyone.

Not once does he deign to support or even attempt to support Atzmon's defence of Anthony Julius or the sentiments in 'Not in our name' that Jews and Zionists are one and the same. Maybe Goch knows too little about Zionism, as his previous utterances suggest, but the fact that the new Rizzo blog boasts Goch as one of its start writers should give us some pause for thought!

Meanwhile I'm posting part of a debate from a debate with another of Atzmon's friends, Made Mikey Ezra, who is an open Zionist but nonetheless a collaborator with Atzmon.

Tony

REJ GOCH said...

Blackmail? Stranger and stranger. Paranoid delusions? TG and co keep asking about my political background and when I tell them where to find out they just repeat the same rubbish over and over again Anyway, I came across this gem of a quote from TG's latest 'work' -
"the job of any historian, to make selections."
What an immaculate piece of Stalinism! It explains TG's methods perfectly. Select only that which supports your own twisted view of things. Ignore anything that contradicts you. Present it all in some 'learned' text then bluster endlessly when you are denounced, or instead of answering your critics, respond by attacking them in the hope that everyone will forget the original issue.

joe90 said...

antisemitic goch zero is completely bewildered - not only does he know nothing of his own background and can't prove it, but he doesn't even know the meaning of what he is typing.
rej rubbish, because he doesn't know anything worth telling anybody about, a bit like his pal rizzo, threatens to expose people -
You on the other hand seem to be known for things you would rather keep quiet about.

Taken aback, like someone undergoing psycho-therapy who has just been exposed to their own supressed knowledge of their own behaviour, goch 0 exclaims in pain -
Blackmail? Stranger and stranger. Paranoid delusions?

As the atzmonites slide ever further into their own antisemitic ignorant slime, the latest gen from rej rubbish -
"the job of any historian, to make selections."
What an immaculate piece of Stalinism!

- Calling historians Stalinists because they make selections from the material they use is a bit Stalinist itself - perhaps rej rubbish can name a historian, any historian, who doesn't make selections or name any historical work which isn't selective, just one will do?

This is a bit like rej 0 claiming to be a revolutionary socialist for 40 years and caliming at the same time he isn't sectarian.
Name me one revolutionary socialist organisation or party that isn't sectarian rej rubbish?

Anonymous said...

Actually Goch I'll let you into a secret. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in your background because it is clear, as far as the left is concerned, that you don't have one. Indeed it is difficult to contemplate you being on the left at all.

I can only presume that one subject Goch didn't teach was history. He takes exception to my statement that 'the job of any historian, to make selections.'

and even describes it as an 'an immaculate piece of Stalinism!' thus proving he understands nothing about Stalinism as well as Zionism.

As someone who has studied history at post-graduate level I thought this statement was so unremarkable that maybe I shouldn't even bother putting it in.

A historian has to make all sorts of choices given that the weight and amount of material are likely to be substantially larger than one's book or article. Which elements are important, which are insignificant, what conclusions do you draw and why. Of course if you ONLY select that which fits a pre-ordained philosophy and reject all other evidence which contradicts it then you are simply distorting the historical picture.

It was the latter, plus mangling and distorting his sources, that did for David Irving. All his 'mistakes' were one way, proving that the holocaust didn't happen. THey were never 'mistakes' that tended to support the positions he opposed.

So e.g. I don't ignore the fact that Kastner organised a train for 1684 Jews out of Hungary I ask why was X on it and not Y. Who made the selections etc. Why were the Auschwitz Protocols not disseminated by Hungarian Zionists and who did disseminate them. There is a mass of often conflicting evidence so you select, making it clear why you select and also that some things will forever remain uncertain.

E.g. noone will know how many died in the Holocaust. It's not surprising to anyone bar holocaust deniers. It took 3 years to know how many died in 9/11 and even now there is no absolute certainty. Yet this was genocide on a scale where whole villages and communities were wiped out, with their records. So when holocaust deniers think they have hit on an 'inconsistency' what they have done is merely find that which is obvious to all. Since they have a pre-ordained agenda, no holocaust, they use this as 'evidence' to support their thesis.

Fact is Goch is that you are an amateur who has fall in love with Atzmon. God knows why since noone takes him seriously politically.

REJ GOCH said...

Proper historians examine all the evidence and if they wish to give some evidence more weight than the rest, they argue their position. They don't just dismiss or ignore it. Stalinists and others were well known for their one sided and exclusive use of 'evidence'. The evidence in front of all od us, repeated time and time again is that this is your chosen style. Your other chosen method is to substitute gratuitous insult fro argument. For Kane's information, blackmail involves the use of threats. I have not and nor will I threaten to discuss TG's past. It was TG himself who raised the issue and I merely referred to it in passing. What's his problem?
Anybody who is interested in my political background can go to my blog, so wht are you going on about it all the time?

Master McGrath said...

Goch said: "[...]they argue their position. They don't just dismiss or ignore it"

Ooh the irony. Goch never offers anything, he never argues anything. In fact all he does is dismiss with empty accusations.

I feel better educated reading junk mail.

Rej Goch is merely a troll.

joe90 said...

I notice rej 0 goes one further than stalinists - as usual he doesn't even bother to present evidence to support his arguments (for want of a better description).

rej 0 thus far -
- claims he's a revolutionary socialist but not a sectarian
- claims historians aren't selective, so this must mean they write only the 'truth'.
- uses intimidation and threat tactics once his arguments have been beaten

This sounds like an archetypal stalinist to me.
There is only one party, one truth, one history, etc - and when your arguments are proven false, use totalitarian bully-boy tactics to silence your critics and stop rational debate.

And when confronted with the truth of his behaviour, rej 0 simply denies it!

But we are given to believe by rej 0, who doesn't say anything worth reading, that his veiled threats originating in atzmon's, and his fellow zionists, dirt-digging, aren't to be taken seriously, viz -
You on the other hand seem to be known for things you would rather keep quiet about.
- which miraculously changes to, when confronted with his own zionist-originating bully-boy threats -
I have not and nor will I threaten to discuss TG's past.

goch atzmon brings up personalised garbage in order to let us all know he won't bring it up.

Is this zionist or stalinist gobbledegook hypocrisy, or both - you decide?

If only rej 0 was as forthcoming about not bring up his own past, then others wouldn't bring it up either - of course, rej 0 didn't just bring up his supposed revolutionary credentials just in passing though. He was very specific about why his non-existent rev cred was so crucial to his pointless existence. It matters a great deal to him. Indeed, so much so, he doesn't like people to mention it, and I understand why.

REJ GOCH said...

1. You can't read. No threats issued and quite specifically ruled out. If you say I have used threats then be specific. Remember it was TG that raised this issue and not me,
2. I told you where to look if you want to find out anout my politics. It's not my fault if you can't be bothered to look.
3. I made it quite clear that some historians are selective when it suits them. I was arguing for historians to behave in a certain way.
4. Where did I expreess( or have I ever expressed ) the idea that "There is only one party, one truth, one history"? Those are your words or may be even straight out of 'Mein Kampf',
5. You continue to litter your posts with cheap insults. Can't you see how you are demeaning yourselves?
6. This all atarted with TG's statement "Last weekend, Norman Finkelstein, the anti-Zionist Jewish academic and author, was arrested at Israel's Ben Gurion airport by the Shabak secret police, detained for 24 hours and then deported. No doubt Gilad Atzmon & his devoted groupie, Mary Rizzo, also support this, since being an anti-Zionist Jew, Finkelstein must also be a Zionist according to Mr Jazzmon!"
When challenged TG backed down and started talking about speculation and logic. He didn't even have the grace to admit that he had been wrong let alone apologise.
8. McGrath and Kane refuse to address this issue or recognise anybody's right to question TG's methods. They are free with abuse but light on argument.

Master McGrath said...

Goch: "8. McGrath and Kane refuse to address this issue or recognise anybody's right to question TG's methods. They are free with abuse but light on argument."

This has been addressed as you well know. You have never replied to any argumment put to you.

As usual you use the Stalinist disinfo tactic of repeating a lie that blatantly flies in the face of reality, ad infinitum.

This in fact is your only method of "engagement", it would seem.

You say substantially nothing. You refute substantially nothing. You dodge. You weave. You just put your fingers in your ears and should "can't hear you!"

We can explain and souce our positions until the cows come home. But it's futile because you just ignore us.

You are a textbook example of trolling and not engagement.

Goch is just a timewaster; a diversion.

I'm still waiting to hear how you think holocaust denial, anti-Semitism and the KKK sit alongide "Socialism" Rej... But I know you will forever dodge those facts.

You think you can dodge any requests you substantiate or clarify your position by issuing spurious charges.

That last thing you are interested in is any kind of intellectual discourse.

And I think by now it is obvious you know you cannot resolve the issues of associations to NeoNazis, holocuast deniers, the ant-Semitic conspiracy theories, the opposition of boycotting Israel... you can resolve none of that to any credible claimn to be a socialist of any description.

joe90 said...

5. You continue to litter your posts with cheap insults. Can't you see how you are demeaning yourselves?
- I'll demean myself when I start to defend antisemites like you do goch 0.

arch stalinist goch 0, now fully denies he's got a past by claiming people can't read and understand such unvarnished statements of his, as -
You on the other hand seem to be known for things you would rather keep quiet about.
11 June 2008 18:13
- and -
"the job of any historian, to make selections."
What an immaculate piece of Stalinism! It explains TG's methods perfectly.

12 June 2008 12:34

In typical stalinist style, rej rubbish issues an 8 point manifesto on his own behalf, claiming he isn't being taken seriously - and when he is, he is being taken seriously in the wrong way.

8. McGrath and Kane refuse to address this issue or recognise anybody's right to question TG's methods.
- When the methods of goch rubbish are held up to scrutiny he claims its unfair to question his method of -
1. Talking complete rubbish
2. Then changing his tune shortly after its pointed out to him what a moron he is
3. That's it

mary said...

As for Rizzo herself:
I didn't read through all this crap but this is an other whopper:

i. If Mary had actually read the Raytheon article she would see we have sourced it from the Outrage blog. The person who runs this blog is an Irish socialist and republican and is a personal contact/friend of Eammon McCann who is one of those arrested. These people would have nothing to do with racists Mary.

why would I need to source something about raytheon. I know Eamonn and spoke with him for an hour when we met in Bruxelles. I have been communicating with the Derry Anti War Coalition regularly and they send me material and updates all the time.

Don't need to get anything from OUTRAGE or you....

as to the other crap and lies, won't even bother!!

mary said...

sorry, Rej, this quote is worth repeating, because it is the core of this whole thread, the incapacity of Tony and his two groupies to be able to deal with the subject matter at hand, i.e., the blatant lies that Tony writes! (oh, and by the way tony, the new site is not a blog, it's a site.... and a very popular one, also with Finkelstein...)

This all atarted with TG's statement "Last weekend, Norman Finkelstein, the anti-Zionist Jewish academic and author, was arrested at Israel's Ben Gurion airport by the Shabak secret police, detained for 24 hours and then deported. No doubt Gilad Atzmon & his devoted groupie, Mary Rizzo, also support this, since being an anti-Zionist Jew, Finkelstein must also be a Zionist according to Mr Jazzmon!"
When challenged TG backed down and started talking about speculation and logic. He didn't even have the grace to admit that he had been wrong let alone apologise.

joe90 said...

as to the other crap and lies, won't even bother!!
- Where's rej nullity when you need him to complain about all the bad language used on this blog?

mary
Have you told the folks from Derry yet, who you think is to blame for the atrocities committed by the nazis in WWII, ie their victims?

Who said this -
Joe, get a new one, this one is tired, as it is indeed ridiculous for anyone to keep trying to point out that there was Anti-jewish sentiment in Europe during the 30s and 40s. Why the hell else were there extermination and concentration and labour camps?
24 April 2008 08:02
'The Death of Mary Rizzo's PeacePalestine Sewer'
azvas blog
25 Apr 2008

mary, have you told Dr Finkelstein yet, you think his parents deserved to suffer at the hands of Hitler because they didn't do enough to make themselves popular with the nazis in WWII?

As you always claim to be so truthful mary, could you answer this question for me, which you have refused to do despite repreated attempts and despite the fact you claim to have answered it already -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?

Tony and his two groupies
- mary's standards slipping all the time.
Wasn't it your good self, typhoid mary, who objected to the term 'groupies' not too long ago?
Just to jog your memory, as I know it's highly selective -
Calling people Groupies is sexist, or doesn't that seem to occur to you?
comment by 'peacepalestine' here -
28 April 2008 21:46

mary said...

I used Groupies because tony said that he did not consider it offensive. Maybe I should have used sychophant instead?

And, what is your point, again? You think it is anti-semitic to say that there was anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe in the beginning to mid-1900s? You would be the only one believing that this is Nazi Propaganda. It's in every textbook, it's even the exact thing that the Yad Vashem museum has in its booklet that tourists buy. It's apparently "an accepted" historical narrative.

It seems amazing that on a blog that doesn't give a toss about Palestinians but is only concerned about Jews, a slip this bad is continued to be used as an argument.

What's typhoid, by the way, and why this particular epithet, Joe? And besides, you don't seem to mind that Tony lied that the site run by Gilad, Haitham and myself had the news of Finkelstein well before this one did, that we were involved in the creation of a petition for him and that he links to our blog and circulates our material? Do lies made by Tony seem to be acceptable to you? Why such double standards? Can't you admit Tony is a liar and an unrepentant one at that?

Master McGrath said...

"also support this, since being an anti-Zionist Jew, Finkelstein must also be a Zionist according to Mr Jazzmon!"

It was a fair assumption based on past comments. Just becase it turns out that he's not been branded a Zionist by Atzmon doesn't make the assumption that he would have been a "lie"!

It just makes it surprising that ATzmon has associated himself with him. It'll take more than the such to detract from teh anti-Semitism and Holocaust Denial distribution. In fact, it would take a public statement retracting many of his writings and further evidence to teh contrary to begin to even make a case for sweeping things under rugs.

As it stands, ther eis nothing absurd about the statemnet Tony made. In fact, it hasn't even really been disproven by some ambiguous gesture.

Or did I miss where you and Atzmon distanced yourselves vociferously from the KKK, Radical Press, generalising Jews, Holocaust Denial... ?

joe90 said...

[this was written before mm's comment above, appeared]

Yes, but typhoid mary,
you don't use other people's standards, or don't you know anything about ethics?

These are your standards - next you'll be telling us it's ok to lie just becuase you say Tony does it - you're such a bloody hypocrite.

The question isn't, and never has been about the existence of antisemitism, as you well know.

I know your memory is defective typhoid mary, so I'll remind you yet again - the question was about atzmon's neo-nazi propaganda, the global assertion that Jewish people were unpopular, and that they were unpopular at the the same time the Nazis were committing horrific atrocities against them.

Vad Yashim historians really aren't to be trusted when it comes to evidence of the existence of antisemitism, as they use it to justify zionist crimes against Palestinians. Although, how significant someone like you, who defends neo-nazi propaganda, should use zionist historians to prove your case. When it comes to either defending Palestinians or atzmon and his antisemitic zionist cause, pro-zionists like atzmon always come first in your list of priorities.

So, putting together atzmon's neo-nazi propaganda (the same propaganda that was pulled from IndyMedia UK, remember that?) and your support for it, along with your continued antisemitic presence in Palestinian solidarity, please answer my question -
- how does disseminating Nazi propaganda about the unpopularity of Jews 65 years ago help Palestinians today, instead of harming them?


Have you told Dr Finkelstein yet his parents deserved their treatment at the hands of the Nazis because they didn't do enough to keep the Nazis happy - or has your wonderful personal relationship with him yet to blossom to such depths yet?

REJ GOCH said...

Oh aren't they getting touchy. I made a whole number of points not one of which they addressed. All the libels about Gilad have long since been laid to rest. Sue Blackwell, for instance, has publicly apologised for hers. All your questions to Gilad have long since been answered by Gilad himself ( see eg. '1001 lies about Gilad') and yet you persist with your libels and your barrage of name calling. Do you think for one second that this poison will win support for you. Every post you put up adds to the stack of evidence against you.

joe90 said...

Oh aren't they getting touchy.
-Oooh, shut that door!

Every post you put up adds to the stack of evidence against you.
- We're all being tried for our crimes in the imaginary court of goch the magnificent!

I made a whole number of points not one of which they addressed.
- Well let's look at one of revolutionary rej's claims
ie he's revolutionary (no don't laugh, he actually believes this to be true) thus,
2. I told you where to look if you want to find out anout my politics. It's not my fault if you can't be bothered to look.

Here is rej the magnificent's original statements -
As a revolutionary socialist of more than 40 years standing, I don't need lectures from those so detached from working class struggle that they have long since forgotten what socialism means.
13 May 2008 21:40
'Gilad Atzmon joins with Antony Julius to attack anti-Zionists'
02 May 2008
azvas blog

Later on the same thread -
As for whether I am a revolutionary socialist or not, I am quite prepared to stand on my record, which you know nothing about. Your opinion on that subject doesn't bother me.
14 May 2008 00:02

rej claims we know nothing about him and yet claims the veracity of his claims rest upon a record only he had access to, which he refused to produce on demand.

Demands to view the evidence only goch-nullity had access to were unilaterally deemed by him as unreasonable.

Now rej is claiming that his cv is availabe for viewing, but only at a certain location.

So, those who previously demanded goch-0 verify his own claims by producing evidence only he had access to, which he refused point-blank to produce, were not being unreasonable after all it seems.

Indeed, it now seems that it is atzmon-goch was the one being unreasonable, even by his own piss-poor standards,
viz here is rej-0 working himself up into a real lather but later concedes in practice he's talking garbage -
As for your curiosity about my background, I can't see any reason why I should bother to tell you. Who do you think you are? Why on earth should anyone have to justify themselves to you? ARROGANT. PATRONISING. COWARDLY.
DELUSIONAL. SECTARIAN. Look in the mirror and weep!

comment by rej goch oo
17 May 2008 20:39
'Gilad Atzmon Joins with Anthony Julius to Attack Jewish Anti-Zionists'
azvas blog
02 May 2008

REJ GOCH said...

You really aren't very bright Joe Kane. Anyone can access my blog. TG already has. I haven't hidden my identity. Rej Goch is a pen name I adopted, but as TG knows my actual name is not hidden on the blog and neither is my e mail address. No, Richard Jones does not figure among the Pantheon of great revolutionary leaders so there is no reason you should have heard of me. Does that mean I have to remain silent when I read the rubbish you disseminate? Only the great and the good such as Joe Kane, McGrath and TG are allowed to have a voice. The ordinary footsoldiers must just shut up, stand back and admire their intellectual superiors. The fact that you are unaware of your own arrogance and blind to your political ignorance is a problem which I fear you are never going to solve. What is the point of repeating what I have said without answering even one point? Your problem is that you can't answer any of them and so you go on and on about my 'record' without making the slightest effort to find out anything about it. If you can find one bit of evidence in anything I have written to justify the abuse you have hurled at me, I will be glad to see it, but I warn you you will grow old and die before you do. Please don't repeat the usual stuff about asociating with Nazis and holocaust deniers and anti-semites, because everyone knows what a pack of lies these allegations are. More importantly get back to the issue which started this thread. Should TG get away with what he said? I don't think so.

tony greenstein said...

At last the admission that we haven't heard of Goch because he hasn't done anything! It's what I suspected.


I have no problem with Goch saying where he disagrees with the article posted above. The problem is that there has been no incisive analysis. We know he disagrees but apart from 'youre being nasty to Atzmon' there is nothing.

That is the problem with the Atzmon acolytes, they have nothing to say. So when I point out one particular essay, and ask Goch what he thinks of it ('Not in my name') he has no answers or indeed anything to say.

Tony G

tony greenstein said...

At last the admission that we haven't heard of Goch because he hasn't done anything! It's what I suspected.


I have no problem with Goch saying where he disagrees with the article posted above. The problem is that there has been no incisive analysis. We know he disagrees but apart from 'youre being nasty to Atzmon' there is nothing.

That is the problem with the Atzmon acolytes, they have nothing to say. So when I point out one particular essay, and ask Goch what he thinks of it ('Not in my name') he has no answers or indeed anything to say.

Tony G

tony greenstein said...

At last the admission that we haven't heard of Goch because he hasn't done anything! It's what I suspected.


I have no problem with Goch saying where he disagrees with the article posted above. The problem is that there has been no incisive analysis. We know he disagrees but apart from 'youre being nasty to Atzmon' there is nothing.

That is the problem with the Atzmon acolytes, they have nothing to say. So when I point out one particular essay, and ask Goch what he thinks of it ('Not in my name') he has no answers or indeed anything to say.

Tony G

tony greenstein said...

At last the admission that we haven't heard of Goch because he hasn't done anything! It's what I suspected.


I have no problem with Goch saying where he disagrees with the article posted above. The problem is that there has been no incisive analysis. We know he disagrees but apart from 'youre being nasty to Atzmon' there is nothing.

That is the problem with the Atzmon acolytes, they have nothing to say. So when I point out one particular essay, and ask Goch what he thinks of it ('Not in my name') he has no answers or indeed anything to say.

Tony G

Master McGrath said...

More side-stepping and empty accusations from Goch.

Still no engagement of the Atzmon-Rizzo association with the KKK, NeoNAzis, Holocaust Deniers, or the anti-Semitism, the blaming of Jews for their persecution, the generalising all Jews, the opposing of boycotting Israel.

Not a peep.

Just watch him come back and the most he'll do is deflect with another unsubstanitated accusation of lies (despite this being documented in detail on this very site).

Rej Goch doesn't engage because he cannot possibly engage this without losing.

All he has left is bluster.

Which begs the question: why on earth is he defending that pair of cryptos? Because despite all his Lord Haw-haw and primary school insults, I actually belive that he believes he is right.

My pet theory is that Scoialist Goch has been duped as have so many by this paitr of snakeoil peddlers and like 419 Scam victims he's just way too deeep in denial to admit his weakness and error.

Why else would any socialist defend someone who submitted material to a NeoNazi site, possibly even the KKK's site, who has distributed holocaust denial material with an endoresement...

It's baffling. The only other explanation is that he's about as Socialist as David Irving... which I don't feel to be the case... Of course there is always Ronald Reagan Syndrome.

So come on finally Goch. How does NeoNazism and racism square with Socialism? How does opposing a boycott of Israel help Palestine?

If nothing else, I am dying to see the game of semantic twister needed to pull that off.

joe90 said...

As I said,
Goch-nullity claims we don't take him seriously, but when we do, its us that are still in the wrong.

His original statement that we didn't and couldn't have access to his revolutionary cv was taken seriously - why should we not take something goch-0 says seriously, I see no reason to doubt his word.

But when we do take his statements seriously, rej-0 then doesn't just add qualifications to his original bland assertions (there is nothing particularly complex about them, they aren't for instance in the same league as E=mc squared, which have implication for the whole of existence, everywhere, at all times), he says they mean somthing other than what they mean.
rej-0's says his original statements, which were taken seriously and in good faith, mean something entirely different to what they actually say, viz, -
As for whether I am a revolutionary socialist or not, I am quite prepared to stand on my record, which you know nothing about.
and -
As for your curiosity about my background, I can't see any reason why I should bother to tell you. Why on earth should anyone have to justify themselves to you?

But these statements actually don't mean what they seem to mean, on the face of it -
- what they actually mean is that rej-0 is prepared to divulge his revolutionary cv, and is prepared to justify himself by publishing his pedigree, which is available and waiting, in another dimension from the one we're in at the moment.

Obviously, it's ourselves who are the ones who are lacking. I mean, to understand any statement made by 0-goch you need to be a telepath and be able to read his mind otherwise you will be accused of not taking him seriously. In fact, you'll be abusing his great mind if you can't read his thoughts - forget what he writes, of course. Not even goch the magnificent takes the rubbish his earthly persona writes seriously.

...but I warn you you will grow old and die before you do.
- Is it just me, or does goch the magnificent take things too seriously?
I have just consulted with Pschycic Bob, resident astrologer at Glasgow's very own 'The Daily Mash' and he assures me this won't come to pass -


all the best azvas!

REJ GOCH said...

Dear Readers, thank you for your patience. It must be tiring for you to wade through the endless evasion from TG. Mc and Kane. Arrogance, abuse, economy with truth - these are all self evident and blisfully repeated time after time. A mere mortal is not allowed to point this out. You must have done something in order to speak! These are, I remind you, self-proclaimed socialists writing. What kind of socialism have they in mind, you might wonder? At the end of all their empty posturing one simple remains. None of them have yet answered the charge I made at the outset and it is obvious that they never will. What a pity for them that this is now well documented and that their self-indictment can never be escaped.

joe90 said...

whoops!
Rhe blogger software playing up again - just click on the blue typeface and be instantly transported to the dimensionless realms of Psychic Bob where nothing is really as it seems (well it is actually, but never mind - at least Bob's far readable and more accurate than goch-0 will ever be, if past and current performance is anything to scientifically go by)

all the best!

joe90 said...

Dear Readers, thank you for your patience.
- goch-0 contradicts himself again, seemingly.

I thought goch-0 said only 3 sectarians ever visited this blog.

It now seems it was wrong for us to take goch-0's words at face value.

Fancy that - who would have guessed?

ho-hum

REJ GOCH said...

I've just had a look at the links on Kane's website and followed
one to the following interesting site...

Scottish Jews for a Just Peace

http://sjjp.org.uk/

"We are a group of Jews, with supporters in all parts of Scotland, who are opposed to Israeli policies that undermine the livelihoods, human, civil and political rights of the Palestinian people and the ethical and political welfare of the Jewish people.
We want Jewish opinions critical of Israeli policy to be heard in Scotland, and for the Scottish Jewish community to realise that protest against Israeli policies is real and growing within the community.
We are working to develop our contacts with and support for Palestinian people trapped in the spiral of violence and repression, and Israeli groups working with them. We seek to work with other organisations on specific issues without necessarily endorsing everything they do.
We do not have an official line on issues beyond general support for the principles above and support for the right of Israelis to live in freedom and security within Israel's 1967 borders."

I think Kane's credentials to speak on behalf of Palestinians are now quite clear!

joe90 said...

I think Kane's credentials to speak on behalf of Palestinians are now quite clear!
- well that's big weight off my mind.

Actually, I thought I was representing what was going on in Scotland and letting folks out there know about it, as far as pro-Palestinian pro-peace pro-justice solidarity and activism was concerned.

As solidarity and activism begins at home, I'm more than happy to represent all views and opinions in bonnie Scotland to the wider world - these views might not necessarily be my own but you won't find any antisemitic human vermin justifying the holocaust and exploiting the pain and suffering of Palestinians in order to disseminate neo-nazi propaganda amongst them.

If you do find any parasitic antisemitic tapeworms within the Palestinian solidarity movement goch-0, do let us all know, would you? there's a dear!

Over to you psychic goch!

Master McGrath said...

Yet again Goch sidestep the issue and blusters.

Again, answer the questions Goch! But you won't, because you CAN'T. We all know that... and we all why: what I have said is incontestable and totally at odds with your politics.

So, I guess Hamas must be Zionists too since they said they would support a referendum of Palestinians if it returned majority support for R-242... which isn't an unrealistic hypothesis.

R-242 doesn't have to be a solution in itself but it could be a stepping stone to a solution. It doesn't automatically ultimately equate Zionism either.

joe90 said...

Too true mm.

The opinion polls of occupied Palestinian folks, as far as I understand them, show a quite clear majority willing to settle for a 2-state solution along the Green Line', with some mutually agreed adjustments etc, aka 'the international consensus'.

And as you say mm, hopefully if that did come about then other good things will naturally flow from it for both Jewish-Israelis and the Palestinians.


Just to pick up on something master macgrath - if what you are saying is correct about mystic goch, that would mean he is calling occupied Palestinians zionists?

So lets see the atzmon list of people who can be counted as zionists so far -
- anti-zionists
- the Palestinians

In fact, the only people who aren't zionists, it would seem, are those people willing to debase themselves enough in order to be given the privilege of flattering and massaging atzmon's big empty ego.

all the best mm!

REJ GOCH said...

So the theft of Palestinian land and the expulsion of Palestinians is OK by you? So linking to sites supporting that position is OK by you? Now we are getting down to the nub of the matter. Now we begin to see your true colours. What is your position on the right of return? I can't imagine. I can't twist my mind that far. When intellectual heavyweights such as your good selves fall back on opinion polls to bolster up their defences we know when they are on the run.

Master McGrath said...

Goch is desperate for a diversion again.

I certainly don't support the idea of the theft of Palestine. And no-one else has has declared R-242 to be the best thing ever but...

But you unwittingly hinted at the answer yourself: If enough Palestinians see R-242 as a way forward then who the hell is anyone here to tell them how to conduct their business.

THAT is what the relevant of opinion polls was. Ultimately it's down to the Palestinians themselves to determine their futures... or at least SHOULD be.

As for the 'right to return', you are surely either taking the piss or really are desperate to be even raising teh issue. Or are far more duped by Atzmon-Rizzo than I realised.

Again, Goch sidesteps the KKK, NeoNazis, Holocaust denial, anti-Semitism he has sided with.

joe90 said...

This is a bit of weakness with me I'm afraid mystic goch. Listening to what occupied Palestinians, and even Hamas themselves, have to say about their own predicament - a vey tragic flaw of mine's which I am only to willing to admit to.

We're all raving zionists unlike yourself, psychic goch, who isn't the slightest bit interested in Palestinian opinion.

You share the same position, incidently, as the occupying Israeli regime and the US government which makes the illegal Israeli occupation possible. They don't care what Palestinians think either.

Incidently, mystic goch, what is the position of the Welsh PSC and the umbrella UK PSC on this matter - or are they like you, the US and Israeli governemnts and don't care about the opinions of Palestinians either?

Are they as keen as you are, on trying to find ways and opportunities of disrupting Palestinian solidarity in the UK?

joe90 said...

ps
What person, who doesn't care what Palestinians think, said this about somebody who does?
I think Kane's credentials to speak on behalf of Palestinians are now quite clear!

pps
What famous antisemtic balloon doesn't support the Palestinian call for a boycott and refers to such Palestinians and their supporters as 'book-burners'?

Here atzmon-goch will find a list of book-burners needing to be denounced for thinking differently from his glorious leader -


ppps
Next week,
atzmon-goch will demostrate how to nail jelly to the ceiling and cellotape custard to his head.

joe90 said...

whoops!

The Blogger software playing up again - you'd think they'd know about this bug and sort it out.

Anyway, just click on the blue typeface for the 'Palestine-BDS' website.

all the best!

joe90 said...

Incidentally
goch-0 joins Israel and US in rejection of UN 242.

UN 242 was rejected by official Palestinian representatives because it didn't specifically mention the West Bank or the Gaza Strip.

However, from the late 1970's this changed and certainly from the epoch 1988 PNC, UN 242 has been adopted as the official Palestinian position, and hasn't been altered since.

The rest of the world, including Palestinians themselves, accepts UN 242 (although I gather the EU's position has altered recently) - everybody accepts UN 242 except the US and Israeli government, and rej goch.

Tony Greenstein said...

Poor Goch. Not content with being hammered over Atzmon's support for Zionists.

Let us see if he can actually address political criticism instead of hiding behind puerile abuse.

In his latest essay, 'The Jewish Experience' Atzmon tells us that ZIonism is dead - hence he is no anti-Zionist because you can't be anti something which doesn't exist. He says:

For more than half a century, those who have been trying to combat the forces that are behind the Israeli paradigm have been identifying Israeli policies and practice with Zionism and Zionist Ideology. I am afraid to say that they were wrong all the way along…. Yet, Israelis, or more precisely, the vast majority of Israeli-born secular Jews, are not motivated or fuelled by Zionist ideology. Its spirit or symbols are virtually meaningless to them. As bizarre as it may sound to some, Zionism is either a foreign or just an archaic notion for most Israeli-born secular Jews.

Since the vast majority of Israelis are confused by the notion of Zionism, most forms of criticism that would label itself as anti-Zionist would have hardly any effect on Israel, Israeli politics or on the Israeli people. In other words, in the last sixty years, those who have been using the paradigm of Zionism and its antipode have been preaching to the converted.

A total review of the amalgam formed by Israel, Zionism and Jewishness is now overdue….

Zionism invented the Jewish nation and set its national home, Israel, into a devastating conflict that is now taking a global shape and has become a serious global threat. Yet, for the Israelis, those who happen to be in the eye of the storm, ‘Zionism’ means very little. Israelis join the IDF not because they are Zionists but because they are Jews (as opposed to the Muslims around them)….

"I am a human being, I am a Jew and I am an Israeli. Zionism was an instrument to move me from the Jewish state of being to the Israeli state of being. I think it was Ben-Gurion who said that the Zionist movement was the scaffolding to build the home, and that after the state’s establishment it should be dismantled." (Avraham Burg, ‘Leaving the Zionist ghetto’ in an Interview with Ari Shavit, 25 July 2007)’

http://palestinethinktank.com/2008/06/10/the-jewish-experience-by-gilad-atzmon

As for not supporting the right of return, that probably is why I co-edited with Roland Rance and others the Jewish anti-Zionist magazine, RETURN, put ads in the Guardian and Observer saying that as Jews we renounce the right of return and accompanied that with an iconic picture of a Jewish anti-Zionist and a Palestinian standing together, the Jewish aZ saying I have the right of return though i wasn't born in Israel, and the Palestinian says I was born there but I have no right of return.

Unlike Goch, who has never been active in Palestinian politics, some of us not merely talk about things but DO them.

Tony Greenstein

Indeed as I show in my article ‘Gilad Atzmon Joins with Anthony Julius to Attack Jewish Anti-Zionists’ Atzmon finds himself in agreement with the most vehement of the anti-boycott campaigners.

REJ GOCH said...

How can you be in favour of the right to return and a return to 67 borders at the same time? The two are mutually exclusive. I'm pleased to see that John Hillier has also been busy demolishing your paper walls. I must say he has done a very good job, not that you'll be able to understand.

REJ GOCH said...

Correction - John Hilley!

joe90 said...

How can you be in favour of the right to return and a return to 67 borders at the same time? The two are mutually exclusive.
- rej-0 as ever on the zionist ball.

Exactly rej, the zionist argument in nutshell.

As ever, atzmon and his acolytes champion the cause of zionism because that is all they are about - zionists determined to undermine the unity of the most influential and effective anti-zionist Palestinian solidarity movement on g-d's holy earth.

Like atzmon, where is goch really from?

It is no coincidence that zionist-antisemitic atzmon appeared in the UK at the same time as the on-going efforts of TG as well as the rest of the London-centered Jewish anti-zionists, were beginning to really make an impact.

Master McGrath said...

Again, Goch sidesteps the KKK, NeoNazis, Holocaust denial, anti-Semitism he has sided with.

And why am I not surprised that he talks like Mighty Whitey, like the Palestinians need people to speak FOR them?

The last person bar Goch I have heard spouting such patronising drivel was Tony Blair.

Perhaps Goch is a Blairite? Would explain so much. Not least why he gets so angry when asked a straight question.

So let's recap:

1. Hamas are Zionists
2. Palestinians are Zionists
3. Tony Blair is an anti-Zionist spokesman for Palestine as is David Duke and Ernst Zuendl

Tony Greenstein said...

Give Goch his due, he has asked a semi-sensible question. How can you be in favour of a return to 67 borders and the right of return. of course the answer is that you can't, though people often have contradictions co-existing inside their heads.

But Hillier, Rooij, Goch and all the other clones have little nor nothing to say except that Atzmon is a fine fellow and we are being destructive. Yet when I tore Rooij apart it seems that he did nothing whatsoever. And Hillier? What does he do? Fact is that the only contribution of these racists is to sully the Palestinian cause and ask the Palestinians to support them! Oh and to boost Atzmon's already monstrous ego a bit further!

REJ GOCH said...

This is what living in a parallel universe is like. TG was about to make a breakthrough for Palestine when along came Gilad and spoiled it all. Being opposed to the existence of Israel is Zionist! John Hilley is dismissed as a racist. What you mistake for my anger ( most people would say that I, unlike you, am being very restrained ) is in fact pity. TG is a living embodiment of all Gilad's criticisms of the Zionist Left.

Master McGrath said...

Thus spake Saladin Goch saviour and ruler of the Levant who has no need to ask the Philistines what they want.

The same Rej Blair that again sidesteps the issue of KKK,NeoNazi association, Holocaust denial and opposing a boycott of Israel.

His contributions have really enriched the dabate I have to say. Much in the way that drunken football hooligans enrich a train journey.

Rej sides with Holocuast deniers and supports a site linked to White Power, he openly declares contempt for Palestinian opinion and self-dtermination... but yet isn't the stlightest bit ashamed to call himself a scoialist.

He thinks that openly rebranding a bigot and a racist as a hero of the Palestinian Stuggle is constructive.

And he has the cheek to call *us* Zionsists.

And taks of parallel universes...

REJ GOCH said...

McGrath, your rage is influencing your spelling. I think you are beginning to disintegrate. Too much drink perhaps? In answer to your libels I have already referred you to '1001 lies about Gilad'. I am not the one who claims to speak on behalf of Palestinians. I am not the one who claims singlehandedly to have almost turned the tide in respect of Palestinian Solidarity.I am not the one who links to sites supporting the theft of Palestinian land. I am not the one that depends on spurious 'opinion' polls in an effort to determine what Palestinians think. You accuse me of dodging the issues, but when I refer you to Gilad's own demolition of your lies, you ignore it. I challenged only one aspect of TG's post and you can't even face up to that. I'm interested to find out who you, who have so little self respect, really are. Come out from behind the mask of 'Master McGrath' or accept the title of a 'cream faced loon'!

Tony Greenstein said...

Goch says he referred us to Atzmon's '1001 Lies' but what about it? It's just more of his tedious 'philosophical' nonsense. What I did to was to refer Goch to Atzmon's 'Not in my name' article, which claims that being Jewish and being a Zionist are synonymous. I asked Goch if he agreed. So far complete silence!

No Goch claims to have done nothing for the simple reason that he has done nothing other than act as Atzmon's echo chamber.

And Goch is also the one who claims to have been a revolutionary for 30 years yet noone seems to have heard of him.

Maybe Goch is another Atzmon alias?

Tony

Master McGrath said...

No Rej. I'm dyslecic and typing on a computer with no spellchecker any more moronic quips abouts handicaps or is that your entire repetoire?

You failed to refute our well-sourced material. A list of someone just naysaying is hardly a rebuttal... and besides it isn't YOUR rebuttal. But you tacitly admit you don't have one.

Master MacBeth said...

And just to register that dyslexic doesn't equate illiterate...

joe90 said...

I am not the one who claims to speak on behalf of Palestinians.
- No you speak of behalf of antisemites and zionist extremists, as your statements indicate.

I am not the one who links to sites supporting the theft of Palestinian land.
- If you mean Hamas, as it agrees with UN 242 basically, as well as a along-term ceasefire with Israel - as well as the Arab League, and also the likes of Iran
- in fact, the only ones not in favour of the international consensus are zionists like you goch and a few other extremists of your ilk.

In a recent opinion poll, 64% of Israelis wanted there government to start talking with Hamas. Effectively, it is extermists such the US and Israeli government which refuse to talk peace.

I am not the one that depends on spurious 'opinion' polls in an effort to determine what Palestinians think.
- No, that's right goch, you just make stuff up as you go along and don't care what Palestinians themselves think.
Your views of Palestinian opinion are zionist in character and you claim their own opinion polls are 'spurious' - evidence, as usual, not required for your anti-Palestinian assertions.

Here is Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research
index page
http://www.pcpsr.org/./index.html

And here is their Board of Trustees -
http://www.pcpsr.org/about/about.html

Much like the research institute Rashid Khalidi is involved with, the'Israel-Palestine Journal'
http://www.pij.org/index.php

All Trustess have respectable academic credentials and seem to be first-class specialists in their field -
however, as with rizzo and Palestinian history she knows more than Rashid Khalidi - so goch knows more about Palestinian opinion, than the Palestinians themselves.

'Shikaki: Palestinians Support Hamas, But Most Favor Negotiated Peace with Israel '
Council for Foreign Relations
25 Sep 2006
http://www.cfr.org/publication/11522/
Khalil Shikaki, a leading Palestinian political expert, says recent polling among Palestinians shows most support Hamas’ refusal to recognize Israel in advance of negotiations, but a great majority indicate they would back a peace agreement setting up a two-state situation. He said polling of Israelis shows many are interested in negotiating even....
...But to the question of “If there is a peace agreement and the issues of the conflict are resolved and a two-state solution is adopted and a Palestinian state is created,” a full three-fourths say they would not only support recognition of Israel but also support reconciliation between the two peoples. In fact two-thirds of the public are willing to go further and agree to a formula whereby the Palestinians would not only recognize Israel but would recognize the Jewish nature of the state of Israel as part of a peace agreement.

The public is a lot more moderate than Fatah and Hamas put together when it comes to a two-state solution.

REJ GOCH said...

Have you not worked out that 'opinion' polls and their results depend on what questions you ask and how the questions are framed? If not you are very strange socialists. The way you put opinions in my mouth which anyone can work out do not equate to reality is really quite disgraceful. You work on that well known principle that if you repeat an untruth enough times someone will end up believing it. Dyslexia we can understand. Dishonesty is another thing. I note Master McGrath that you are still rather shy about your real identity and the Cream Faced Loon award is all yours now. Anyway your choice of quotations and references make it perfectly clear that you favour the continued existence of the racist Israeli state and the the ghettoisation of the Palestinian people. I can't believe your nerve in posing as a 'friend' of the Palestinians.

Master McGrath said...

Sorry Rej, I'm just not an "oustanding personality"! Won a few dog shows...

Still no comment on the KKK, submitting material to Radical Press Candada, perhaps even the Zuendelsite? Nothing about distributing HD?

joe90 said...

Have you not worked out that 'opinion' polls and their results depend on what questions you ask and how the questions are framed?
Really goch 0.

Well, I see you haven't told us how Palestinian support for 2-states is to be interpreted. I interpret it as support for 2-states.
But then that is your style, say one thing then claim you mean something else.

2-states are supported by the likes of the UN, the Arab League, PLO, PNC, Iran, Hezbollah who supports the Hamas position...on and on - the only ones who don't support it are zionist extremists such as yourself rej-0 - and the extremist US and Israeli governments, who are out of line with their own public over the issue.

Let us know what these findings and their conclusions actually mean, and where Dr Shakiki and the Board of Trustees of the PCPSR are wrong. As I said, Rizzo is right about Palestinian histroy and the likes of Dr Rashi Khalidi wrong. So goch is right, and empirical-based evidence, as collected and interpreted by respected Palestinians, such as Dr Shakiki, wrong.

goch 0 here, might be another atzmon alias - his language is quite similar to atzmon's 'voice of doom' tone - he ise a zionist masquerading as a Palestine solidarity supporter. No doubt about that.

REJ GOCH said...

1. You have no right to call yourselves anti-Zionists when you clearly accept the Zionist state.
2. Telling me that I am extreme and in a minority is no news to me. I can read it in the Daily Mail any day. I don't suffer from the illusion that revolutionary socialists are in the majority and that the red flag will soon be flying over Brighton or Lanarkshire.
3. "2-states are supported by the likes of the UN, the Arab League, PLO, PNC, Iran, Hezbollah who supports the Hamas position...on and on".( You forgot to mention Bush and Blair while you were at it.) That does not mean that 2 states is a just solution. 2 states in fact legitimises the plundering of Palestine and Zionist ethnic cleansing.
4. If you are for the right of return ( and here I'm referring to the right of Palestinians as opposed to the mythical right of Zionists ) and in favour of a 2 state solution, then where do you expect Palestinians to return to?
5. Master McGrath, holder of the Cream Faced Loon title still hasn't plucked up courage to admit who he is.
6. They persist with this nonsense about who I am. I repeat, TG has clearly visited my blog, where anyone who wants to know can find out. Kane and McGrath are either incapable or too lazy to bother.
7. All the nonsense about the KKK etc etc has already been dealt with by others, as you well know, so you can stop repeating it ad nauseam, because you are not fooling anyone.
8. When are you going to get back to TG's original defamatory error and admit he was wrong.
9. It's time to grow up, cast aside the schoolboy invective and face up to being in the wrong.

Master McGrath said...

Rej. No one here has advocated anything other than LISTENING to what PAlestinains want. So, you can stop trying to twist R-242 into Zionism unless you want to go to source and accuse Palstinians and HAmas with Zionism... as has been repeatedly made clear.

No, the KKK etc. stuff has been documented here. It isn't nonsense and it hasn't been dealt with.

You care to tell us why you think someone else's interpretation nulls our research?

If you you don't provide a point-by-point illustration of how we got it wrong (by quoting primaru sources) you just look like you have no tenable position.

So, again you have sidestepped the issue.

"It's time to grow up, cast aside the schoolboy invective and face up to being in the wrong." Indeed Rej it is time for you to do that isn't it.

Tony Greenstein said...

I know that Richard Jones/Goch is new to the Palestine cause but he should refrain from making observations which may seem stunning to him but which are old hat to most of us.

The issue of 2 vs 1 state has divided supporters of the Palestinians and anti-Zionists, and indeed Palestinians, for many years. I have always supported 1 state. Joe supports I think 2 states. But that does not make Joe or anyone else a Zionist.

I would argue that the LOGIC of 2 States is that indeed you support the existence of an Israeli state, however defined, but the argument from many people who do support it is that it's the only thing that's feasible. I don't accept that argument but there you go.

The ONLY time that 2 staters are Zionists if, like the AWL, you think an Israeli exclusivist state is a good thing in its own right, as opposed to the least best option, or like Sharon/Olmert you want 2 states so that Israel is not subject to the 'democraphic threat' of too many Arabs.

Norman Finkelstein, about whom this post is concerned, supports 2 states. He is an anti-Zionist.

I don't think you are extreme Goch. If anything you are a reactionary.

I found nothing on your blog Richard Jones/Goch which said who you were or what you had been doing all these years. I therefore concluded you'd been doing nothing.

Tony G

joe90 said...

I have always supported 1 state. Joe supports I think 2 states. But that does not make Joe or anyone else a Zionist.
- Just to let you know TG mate, what I think.

I don't accept a zionist state, or any racist state - as goch obviously does, as he supports and disseminates pro-zionist propaganda about the destruction of Israel that would come about if RoR was completely implimented.
A gift to zionists.

Unlike goch, but like yourself TG I don't support racism, which means that even if a 2-state international consensus was implemented I would still be campaigning against Israeli state sponsored racism and UK and EU support of it (as I live in the UK).

2-states in the interim, with a 1 state in the foreseeable future, given that the current racist Israeli regime might not then be as able to pour racist poison into the heads of Jewish-Israelis trapped in their racist ghetto of Israel.

In fact I would like to see a comity/zollverien type of unity of the states around the Levant.

Anyways given all that, there are those experts who are saying that the zionists, by their continued expansion into the West Bank, have destroyed any hopes for a feasible 2-state solution.
So the zionists themselves have left it in no doubt that they are for a 1-state solution, their solution - with Palestinians given no rights and herded into a series of open air prisons.

Any type of a 2-state solution seems to be now dead.


The list of those goch considers zionists grows by the day - Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, the UN, the Arab League, the PLO, the PNC, Fateh, occupied Palestinian opinion, Rashid Khalidi, Dr Shikaki... - in fact, those who disagree with his glorious leader, atzmon, are all zionists and 'book-burners'!

Anyway goch 0, let have this revolutionary cv of yours, on the comments here on azvas blog so as there's no wild goose chases after something that doesn't exist - your revolutionary pedigree obviously embarrasses you so much you can't bring yourself to reveal it.

joe90 said...

I don't suffer from the illusion that revolutionary socialists are in the majority and that the red flag will soon be flying over Brighton or Lanarkshire.
- No, atzmon-goch, reader of the Daily hate Mail, but you do suffer from the illusion (one of many) that you think other people think this way.

I support the Scottish National Party at the moment, for many great and brilliant reasons.

One of the reasons is that the minority-led SNP Scottish Government is doing its best to protect and defend Scottish Muslim folk, and their communities, from the Islam-hating campaigns of the British government in London and the Islamophobia of British corporate news organisations.

I know this goes against the grain of supporters of racists and racism such as yourself atzmon-goch. After all, what finer endorsement is there, of the haters of the Ummah and the desicrators and defilers of Islam in the UK, than openly associating with the vulgar human trash that run the racist sewer of the pro-zionist 'Harry's Place' blog, as your glorious leader atzmon does.
Indeed, atzmon employs some of them to distrupt UK-Palestinian solidarity and attack its anti-zionist members using personlised filth campaigns.

Much in the same way you do, atzmon-goch, of always trying to make a virtue out of publishing any personal details of people that you can get a hold of. It's either that, or you engage with the arguments which you can't, as is obvious.

Master McGrath said...

Obviously the single state with a proportional representation of Palestinians would be morally ideal.

Much like Joe, I realise a two state solution which would incorporate the rights of Palestinians within Israel and all the legal and fiscal realities of such a concept may very well be more realistic outcome now.

As the depressing reality seems that Israel is only interested in crushing Palestine into the dirt and geographical assimilation as a "solution".

And as I alluded to earlier but it went straight over Goch's head. Accepting the 2 State Solution need not be the end of the story and could be a stepping stone to a single state- which I admit is very hard conceive right now.

But, ultimately, given the amount of shit this country has dumped on that place already, I am very conscious of where in the pecking order of importance my musings on the situation rank. Just like Goch's, Rizzos, and the rest of us= bugger all relevance to anything other than how we organise our support for the real opinion= Palestinian opinion.

And if Palestine were to surrender tomorrow, that would be their decision and right for them. If they vowed to oppose the 2 State Solution, again that would theirs to make and right.

But Goch in his infinite wisdom knows better than the people in their open prisons and perpetual refugee camps what is best for them.


Apart from that, Joe brought up a not wholly unrelated predicament. For Scotland. Which obviously isn't as dramatic a problem... mainly since teh ethnic cleansing has been successfully carried out already.

I know many people who are at political odds with the SNP and the system that carries the, who voted for them and will vote again despite some issues that may have been less than desirable.

The Scottish predicament is this: Scottish Socialism has imploded, its taste of power played out like an embarressing am-dram production, where the notional villain was a man who could barely keep his trousers on- whatever that has to do with politics anyway.

So, given that NewLabour are just a Thatcherite coup, the Lib Dems willfully disinterested on the Nationalist issue... who do then Scots turn to for a hope of self-determination?

Do we sit on our hands like Goch and the 1 State Solution and dogmatically sulk or do we as they oft say round these parts "pish wae the cock ye've got!"

For many Scots self-determination is THE class issue here- unlike Wales we haven't given up on it. And when you you do a checklist between NewLAbour, SNP and the Scots' character, SNP comes off best for what most Scots would see as being socially just.

It's not a perfect solution, but the most realistic we have. And like all compromises the detractors will have many valid arguments, but it's always down to the individual to weigh that up aginst the practicalities.

So, when Palestinians and Hamas start talking about 2 states I'm not so quick to tut.

joe90 said...

Thanks for that mm!

Just to say mate,
that because there might be Scottish sovereignty, doesn't imply a perpetual SNP-dictatorship.

There is the distinction, of the SNP having to have policies for the here and now, because they operate at various levels of government - and the SNP as a vehicle for achieving Scottish sovereignty.

The SNP might not even be around post-independence. It's up to voters who they decide they want as their government etc

And as I say to the denizens of the Socialist Unity website, that hopefully having a socialist/social democratic democracy right next door to Englandandwales will be an inspiration as well as providing a reservoir of left-wing resources, parties and personnel.

All decent people are agreed, I think, that the British goverment is so out of control of the electorate that it either has to be reformed or abolished.

I see the UK government is sending more troops to Afghanistan!

all the best mm!

ps
The latest from the SPSC -
'Israel is the worst brand in the world'
Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign
last updated 16 June 2008
http://www.scottishpsc.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1697&Itemid=404

REJ GOCH said...

What a flurru of feathers!

Such poor demented souls.
they need much rest.
They waste their lives
in ever digging holes
and when they find they can't climb out,
they bawl and scream and curse and shout.

Master McGrath said...

True enough Joe, single-issue tickets have a habit of drying up once they achieve what they set out to do, and there's no shame in it.

And true. The reality is we are in a globalised neo-liberal economy with no obviousy easy way out it bar running a closed economy and learning to love the taste of cabbage broth.

But again, we only have the option of playing the hand we were dealt or resigning from the game.

An independent Scotland would certainly have an interesting effect on NewLabour. Sadly at the moment many traditional Socialists still vote for them, whether it be out of ignorance or out of the mentality "They aren't the Tories"... which really should just be filed under ignorance too; you could barely get a fag paper between the two.

But as it stands the great disaster that would follow Salmond into Hollyrood has yet to transpire. I f anything agulf in the quality of life between Scotland and teh rest of the UK is opening up in Scotland's favour.

REJ GOCH said...

"The reality is we are in a globalised neo-liberal economy with no obviousy easy way out it bar running a closed economy and learning to love the taste of cabbage broth."
Whoops! Sounds like national socialism to me. What has history taught us about socialism in one country? Perhaps you are planning to open kibbutzim in Lanarkshire?

Master McGrath said...

Oh yes, I was so obviously endorsing a closed economy Rej... And actually I had the Eastern Bloc more in mind as the negative model hence the reference to "cabbage broth".

And someone bemoaning neo-liberalism is going to be promoting Nazism... as a member of a declared anti-racist site, that condemns Nazism... well done Columbo.


Another desperate attempt Rej. You are desperate for that Brownie "Troll" Badge aren't you.

But what makes me titter is Rej's sneering at the idea of local grassroots initiatives with the insinuation of parochial quaitness.

Not only does sit as well with socialism as does the KKK, racism and Holocaust denial, but it reveals a very telling ignorance of what great historical importance that neck of the woods is to British scoialism.

Methinks, Goch's "socialist" credentials crumble a little further.

REJ GOCH said...

McGrath, your grasp of English is a little quaint. The meaning of your quotation is quite clear, especially in the context of the situation you were decribing, so stop pretending you were really saying the opposite of the words you actually used. Don't lecture me when you haven't the faintest idea of what socialism is. I wasn't sneering at local grass roots initiatives just at your overblown opinion of your own importance. You just don't get it do you?
PS you still haven't owned up re your real identity. Nervous? Ashamed?

Master McGrath said...

"I wasn't sneering at local grass roots initiatives just at your overblown opinion of your own importance. You just don't get it do you?"

Sounds like the same thing to me.

So, you think that learning to like cabbage broth is a glowing endorsement? If I were to endorse a closed economy, I'd hardlt be denying it 3 minutes alter. Get real.

Teneous and desperate.

REJ GOCH said...

So, you are a local grass roots initiative. Wonderful. I expect red flags in Scotland by the weekend!

joe90 said...

What about zionist goch and his doggerel?
It's just as bad as his zionism and time-wasting hasbara.

atzmon-goch was complaining not too long ago of being called names - now he is saying we are either nazis or stalinists, despite the fact I said I vote for the SNP Amongst other reasons for this being the SNP defence of Scottish Muslim communities against the anti-Islamic British authorities and the British corporate press.

If you don't vote for a British party or the British government you are an extremist, according to goch the zionist!

As atzmon-goch's great leader, atzmon-gilad, openly associates with pro-zionist Islamic desecrator's of 'Harry's Place' blog I can see why he might not be too enamoured at the SNP basically trying to protect ethnic minorities from being demonised by British Nationalist Imperialists -
- after all, the nazis' victims weren't too popular either, according to rej 0's great leader, atzmon.

Unlike goch and atzmon, I don't blame ethnic minorities for the treatment they receive at the hands of western authorities. Nor do I join with those, such as 'Harry's Place' blog who agree in demonising communities who are the target of state propaganda campaigns - I join with the victims, and try to help them anyway I can.

Ask the victims of British state-sponsored racism zio-goch, what they think of my support for them?

ps
goch the zionist says -
Perhaps you are planning to open kibbutzim in Lanarkshire?

- No zio-goch, but the SPSC is planning to build an illegal settlement in Eaglesham Golf Course.
In an email newsletter from the SPSC the following event is taking place tomorrow (Tuesday)-

1. Protest Glasgow JNF fundraiser -Tuesday 17th 9am onwards throughout the day

Following negotiations with E Renfrewshire Police, the protest against the JNF fund-raiser at Bonnyton Golf Course, Eaglesham, will now take place at an agreed spot at the perimeter fence alongside one of the holes on the course.

Bring banners, noise -makers, mirrors (in the event of sunny periods).
There will be a BBQ with coffee, tea & biscuits - bring anything you want to throw on the barbie.
Help us decorate the entire area with Palestinian flags, SPSC banners, placards against Israeli crimes
Try your skills on the loudhailer to remind those fund-raising for ethnic cleansing of what they are supporting
Bring your imagination to Bonnyton on Tuesday
There are frequent number 44 buses from Union Street, outside Glasgow's Central Station, to Eaglesham. One group will be meeting there at 8am to travel together to the protest. A shuttle service of cars will take you from there to the nearby golf course protest.
E-mail or call 0795 800 2591 to arrange.

The Scottish branch of the racist JNF (Jewish National Fund) are having a fundraiser on June 17th - a pro-am golf tournament at Bonnyton golf club, Eaglesham, near Glasgow. The JNF is a major pillar of Israeli apartheid; Gordon Brown and David Cameron are both Honorary Patrons of this racist organisation.

Bonnyton golf club supports illegal settlement-building in Palestine - join Scottish PSC to build a settlement on Bonnyton gold course sometime in the near future!
Go here for more info -
http://www.scottishpsc.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2287&Itemid=433

joe90 said...

So, you are a local grass roots initiative. Wonderful. I expect red flags in Scotland by the weekend!
- What else is solidarity with Palestinians except a grassroots initiative?

Unless I've missed something and solidarity with Palestinians is being sponsored, endorsed and supported by the US, Israeli and UK governments.

Unless zio-goch has a master-plan that is going to solve all problems in the Middle East and he's been keeping quite about it - just as he's being keeping quiet about his non-existent revolutionary cv.

So let's have it zio-goch, how do ordinary people of conscinece go about achieving peace and justice?

REJ GOCH said...

You really do have a problem with the English language. I'm sorry I didn't understand the limits of your understanding. I thought at first you were deliberately misinterpreting everything I said, but now I realise that you really don't get it, that bit about words in a certain order having meanings. You know, once you set the words down and the meanings are clear, you can't later pretend that you really meant something quite different and while we are on the subject, since your use of language is so limited I would prefer it if you did not put words into my mouth and furthermore, you still haven't owned up about who you really are. What are you so scared of? Anyway good luck with the camping!

Master McGrath said...

'Syntax' is the word you are looking for.

Again, if my original premise was as you described it why would I backtrack?

You must be on glue to read the "cabbage broth" remark as an endorsement.

Or perhaps it's a cultural misunderstanding and cabbage broth is covetted in your part of the world?

I suppose Goch was in awe of Winston Smith and Dahl's Bucket Family as a child.

"Yes, come join the NAtional Socialist Revolution. Everyone shall receive cabbage broth!"

"Make the Cabbage Broth and they shall come!"

You have sunk to an all-time low with this one.

mary said...

pps
What famous antisemtic balloon doesn't support the Palestinian call for a boycott and refers to such Palestinians and their supporters as 'book-burners'?

that's easy:
Shraga Elam, Tony's good friend and Brian Robinson, another good friend of Tony's.
Why are they let off Joe's hook?

good question.

mary said...

Unlike Goch, who has never been active in Palestinian politics, some of us not merely talk about things but DO them.


WOW! WHAT PARTY WERE YOU IN, AL FATAH, HAMAS OR WHAT? this is an amazing revelation. Tony was active in Palestinian politics!!!

mary said...

These gems from Joe:
As ever, atzmon and his acolytes champion the cause of zionism because that is all they are about - zionists determined to undermine the unity of the most influential and effective anti-zionist Palestinian solidarity movement on g-d's holy earth.

?????? which one? What has it done so that we know what you are on about. Has a single Palestinian returned? Are they enjoying full rights (the Palestinian Arabs with Israeli citizenship)? Oh, do tell!


Like atzmon, where is goch really from?

It is no coincidence that zionist-antisemitic atzmon appeared in the UK at the same time as the on-going efforts of TG as well as the rest of the London-centered Jewish anti-zionists, were beginning to really make an impact.

????? Again... what the hell are you on about? Who are these London-centered Jewish Anti-Zionists and what impact were they beginning to make? Funny how when their gatekeeping efforts have been exposed, many people started to complain... very vocally. It seems not all are required to appreciate whatever it is you say they do which is??? what?

PS, John Hilley has demonished the ego of Tony and the stupidity of Joe. Nice work, and when will he be attacked?

mary said...

Yet when I tore Rooij apart it seems that he did nothing whatsoever.

Ahahahahahahhaha! This one is brilliant! It's only been published on many sites and most people in comments agreed with it. Amin published my commentary on it and what is this nothing whatsoever? What is he supposed to do, break your little pencil in two? Hilley unmasked your massive ego problem that insists that YOU are the leader and why he bothered to sign something without asking you first... isn't that a little creepy?

mary said...

I know that Richard Jones/Goch is new to the Palestine cause but he should refrain from making observations which may seem stunning to him but which are old hat to most of us.


tony said....

is that so?? how do you know? What do you know? It's in fact Joe who is learning the ropes from you about Palestinians and their cause, since you were involved in Palestinian politics, you of course have much to say!

REJ GOCH said...

"Kiss the hand you cannot bite and pray God breaks it."

joe90 said...


- Rizzo off on her old 'gatekeeping' allegations again.

How appropriate antisemitic typhoid mary, who is Italian and a foreigner, should attack British anti-zionists for doing great work here in Britian where they all live and work.
Like atzmon-goch, that is typhoid mary's idea of grass-roots initiative - don't encourage or praise anti-zionists but attack and denigrate their work and dedication.
typoid mary's grass-roots work in Italy involves attacking anti-zionists in other countries, especially for the crime of being Jewish or the crime of being a gentile wiping the arses of Jews.

Only those willing to massage and flatter typhoid mary's antisemitic ego are allowed into the club of antisemites posing as supporters of Palestinian solidarity - gatekeeping in fact.

I engage with people because solidarity and activism begins at home, hence the reason I warn others around me of antisemites exploiting the suffering of Palestinians in order to peddle neo-Nazi propaganda.

I warn them, for instance, of atzmon's open association with anti-zionists and descrators of Islam at 'Harry's Place' blog.

Just like atzmon, how typical goch denigrates my support for the Scottish Nationl Party-led minority Scottish Government in its efforts to support and defend Scottish Muslims against the racist campaigns of demonisation by the British authorities and British coporate press.

I support the SNP in its efforts to prevent the British Government allowing Scottish airports to be used by the CIA to ferry its torture/execution victims around the globe.

I support the SNP in its efforts to prevent the British Government allowing Scottish airports being used to ferry the likes of cluster bomb munitions, from the US to Israel, so they can be dropped on the heads of southern Lebanese.


As usual typoid mary makes false claims in order to answer questions nobody has ever asked, such as people requiring to ask myself first before they sign a petition. That isn't my point at all and never has been, as typhoid mary knows - but she also knows that she can't tell the truth, so she has to tell lies about herself and others in order to make herself look good.

goch-atzmon doesn't tell lies - he just doesn't say anything worth anybody's while. Except of course, to claim that he's misunderstood, or to attack everybody as zionists he doesn't agree with (an endless list), or that solidarity and activism are worthless activities.

atzmon-goch is a your typical zionist in fact, whose abuse, just like a zionist once they're arguments are refuted, is starting to really pick up and is the only type of 'comment' he utters - wortless stream of garbage.

REJ GOCH said...

"the only type of 'comment' he utters - wortless stream of garbage." Are you referring to my last post?
Where did I denigrate the SNP? I must have missed that.
Who is on this 'endless' list of people I have attacked? By my count there are only 3.
"How appropriate antisemitic typhoid mary, who is Italian and a foreigner, should attack British anti-zionists." Leave aside the gratuitous insult and the libellous description is this the comment of someone who is accusing others of being racist and xenophobic?

joe90 said...

Just to repeat -

atzmon-goch is a your typical zionist in fact, whose abuse, just like a zionist once they're arguments are refuted, is starting to really pick up and is the only type of 'comment' he utters - wortless stream of garbage.

- and time-wasting.

REJ GOCH said...

What abuse are you referring to? I asked you to clarify on your previous post about me. I asked where I ever denigrated the SNP. I pointed out that your remarks about Mary Rizzo were rather strange for an avowed anti-racist. Did you not understand, "Kiss the hand you cannot bite and pray God breaks it."?

REJ GOCH said...

If you did not understand, ask TG and McGrath. They will be able to help as they are 'experts'!

Anonymous said...

If Joe had to ask McGrath, all he needs to do is look in the mirror....

REJ GOCH said...

It's gone strangely silent. I think they've realised that they've scored yet another own goal!

Master McGrath said...

Or, no-one can be bothered with your trolling right now...

Well Rej, if an own goal were the case wouldn't we have deleted all the incimination?

Another sad trolling. And still no rebuttal on the KKK etc. I notice.

REJ GOCH said...

The KKK reference has been shown to be as spurious as all your other accusations, which I have mentioned several times already. You should just shut up now unless you are prepared to say who you are. It's very safe for you to libel people from the safety of anonimity. You haven't answered even one of my points, most importantly about Kane's racist comments and obviously "Kiss the hand you cannot bite and pray God breaks it." means nothing to you which is strange for someone who claims to spend a lot of time listening to Palestinians.

Master McGrath said...

Still no rebuttal from Goch the troll regarding the connections to the extreme right.

He claims they have been dealt with, but can't tell us how.

REJ GOCH said...

Anyone who is too scared to reveal their true identity should just keep quiet. They do not have the courage of their convictions. That means you McGrath. Kane has gone very quiet after his racist outburst. TG must be squirming with embarrassment It seems he is "against all racism" except when his pals are racist!

tony greenstein said...

I see RIzzo is back again. Knew she couldn't stay away. Rooij may have been printed by hundreds of conspiracy sites but he was still left with egg on his face!

And Atzmon meanwhile ends up supporting Anthony Julius, the arch Zionist attack lawyer of the academic boycott - but why shouldn't Atzmon support his attacks on Jewish anti-Zionists when he too holds that the boycott is 'book burning'.

No Goch the only racists around are those like you who associate with KKK linking sites like Rizzos or white supremacist supporters like Israel Shamir and his friends like Atzmon.

But keep batting away on the internet because that is the only thing you do

tony g

tony greenstein said...

Mary may try to associate with Finkelstein, in the hope that some of his lustre rubs off on her, but Finkelstein certainly doesn't want to be tarnished by those who link to David Duke and overtly anti-semitic/holocaust denial sites like the Radical Press.

When Mary started making her claims I contacted Norman to point out who these people were. Norman replied thus:

'Honestly, I appreciate this and will be more careful in the future. I'm no big fan of Atzmon and Shamir.'

I think that says it all.

Tony G

mary said...

good for you, Tony, please, keep writing every person you know who has contacts with us, as I have letters from NF who knows full well that the site he posts materials from is run by Gilad, Haitham and I.

Sooner or later, I shall publish the funny things he wrote about your buddy Shraga, who you don't seem to mind thinks the boycott is very bad.

BTW, the name is De Rooij, try to at least get something right.

And yes, Joe's comments are quite racist. And, to follow his logic, that he is Scottish and a foreigner, he better not criticise Israel. It's none of his damned business!!

But, let's get beyond this tautology: Tony and Joe say Mary and Gilad are AS, and they are because Tony says so!!!

It's really amusing how long they can keep it up. And still, the intitial lie of the entire article has not been even apologised for, much less acknowledged. This is why Tony, the Palestinian Politician has got Joe believing that he is single-handedly liberating the Palestinians, and that anyone in solidarity has to check with him first, if they don't they will be labeled or their sites in some way insulted and attempts to ban them will be made. But of course, not the Zionist sites. Snoopy the Goon sleeps the sleep of the just.

REJ GOCH said...

TG says he will not tolerate racism and yet he has nothing to say about Kane's racist comments. TG says he will edit out abuse from his site and has even appealed to his pals not to use abuse, but what does he do when they ignore him? He lets them carry on. He avoids answering charges against himself at any cost and seems to think that he can get away with them by continuing to libel anyone who dares to criticise him. Just don't think that we will get tired and go away. We are on your case until you face up to your own dishonesty.

joe90 said...

And yes, Joe's comments are quite racist.
- rizzo the antisemite, clutching at straws as usual

I said activism and solidarity begins at home - I stated why, for instance I support the Scottish National Party anmd the current Scotosh Government and, gave some info on local activism that is going on where I live -
- I contacted John Hilley at Zenpolitics blog to warn him of the antisemitic provenance of a patition he put his name to, because he lives near me -
- I support the London-centred south of England group of activists and their great work, whom you and your antisemite friend atzmon have targeted for being Jewish.

I support all this because it is in the UK and that is where I live -
- I primarily criticise the UK government (and indeed the Scottish government) because they are my democratically elected reepresentatives who use my taxes to carry out their policies and plans.

None of this should need saying to anyone who is into political activism and solidarity. It is as basic as breathing.

Why would I criticise the crimes of others without criticising my own first and trying to do something about them?
To do otherwise is rank hypocrisy.
Activism and solidarity begin at home.

Hence the reason I need to give you and that nobody, goch, lessons in the basics of morality.


And, to follow his logic, that he is Scottish and a foreigner, he better not criticise Israel. It's none of his damned business!!
- You see, Mary Rizzo not only knows nothing about Palestinian history, she doesn't even understand the basics about crimes committed by her government in her name using her taxes ie her own personal area of responsibility.

Who better to change the Italian government's support of Israeli crimes than an Italian voter and taxpayer?
If they aren't, then who is?

Rizzo, when my own British government supports the Israeli government, that is my buisness. When the Israeli Government commits crimes against Palestinians I can do somothing about it - stop taking part in them by getting my own government to stop supporting them.
That is how democracy works Mary, or didn't you know?

No wonder you mistake the internet for the real world and nobody ever hears anything much about Italy from your antisemitic sewer 'pissingonpalestine' blog.

You'll find more material attacking British anti-zionist Jews, and Jews in general, on rizzo's piss-poor 'pissingonpalestine' sewer, than you ever will about Italian solidarity and activism.

Because I am not an antisemite, here is rizzo's attack on Scottish solidarity with Palestine, as a whole.
A photoshop job using the Scottish flag and the Scottish 'Lion Rampant' symbol of the House of Stewart, both -
'Gilad Atzmon - Send Them To Gaza: Gimmicks and Education'
peacepalestine
Feb 26 2008
http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2008/02/gilad-atzmon-send-them-to-gaza-gimmicks.html

I doubt even Goebbals would be proud of such a crummy attempt at rizzo's pro-zionist 'divide and rule' attack on Scottish solidarity -
Hold on to the contents of your stomach - rizzo the antisemite is now masquerading as a 'Palestinian Mother'
http://palestinian.ning.com/profile/1334lalu8k990

She is certainly exploiting the 'family' in her recent propaganda output - she even says her own family deserved what they got from the nazis.

ps
Speaking of empty balloons -
- goch 0, break a habit and use evidence to prove your empty assertions about me

- and print your revolutionar cv on the azvas comments

REJ GOCH said...

"How appropriate antisemitic typhoid mary, who is Italian and a foreigner, should attack British anti-zionists for doing great work here in Britian where they all live and work." By any standards this is a racist remark. If Kane doesn't understand this then he shouldn't be so quick to accuse others of racism. What any of his latest post has to do with defending his racism is a total mystery. What any of it has to do with socialism or international solidarity is equally mysterious.
When is TG going to be true to his word and control the level of abuse routinely peppering every one of Kane's e mails? When is Master Mcgrath going to come clean on his real identity? When is TG going to admit his libel and apologise for it? Don't hold your breath people!

joe90 said...

rej rubbish,
Mary Rizzo is Italian and is a foreigner isn't she?

Why else would the nazis build concentration and extermination camps if they didn't like their victims ?

Which of these questions is racist, rej rubbish?

unlike you goch 0
master mcgrath has nothing to hide, because he isn't a fraud or making false claims about himself - people's own personel private details are nobody else's business but their own.

If commenteers are like you, rej rubbish, a manifest nobody trying to pretend you are somebody you are not, then background details can be important.

Only other pro-zionists nobodies like yourself, rej rubbish, go after people's private lives because they have no intellectual arguments. What you want is meaningless gossip which isn't an argument, just proof that you are nobody.

let's have your revolutionary cv rej 0 on the azvas comments here

ps
Who said this with regards to Tony Greenstein -
There is a price to be paid for this and he is going to pay it.
comment by
Richard Jones 03.19.08 - 3:04 am
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/thecutter/4159510818776603633/#277716

Comment thread above attached to this article -
'Oren Ben-Dor - Freedom of Speech, Free Speech and Their Enemies'
peacepalestine blog
Saturday, March 15, 2008
http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2008/03/oren-ben-dor-freedom-of-speech-free.html


pps
there are other gems on that particular thread, especially atzmon asking Lafayette Sennachrib (whom I believe is the notorious Rowan Berekeley) for dirt on anti-zionists who happen to be Jewish.

REJ GOCH said...

I accept you might have difficulties with reading, but this is too much. According to your thinking 'foreigners' should not have opinions. To say that there was and is a great deal of anti-semitism is not the same thing as agreeing with it, but that is too complicated for you to understand. My point about Master McGrath is also too simple for you to grasp - if he is to make serious allegations against anyone, if he is to stoop to low abuse, as he does frequently, then I expect him to take proper responsibility for his own words and that must mean being prepared to admit who he really is. His cowardice hardly lends force to what he is saying. I would be very careful bandying words like 'fraud' around if I were you. Personally, I couldn't care less which insult you come up with next, but you might just run into someone who is more inclined to view libel more seriously. Don't forget, legal action would involve not only yourself, but also the site on which your libel was broadcast, so your zeal might be the very instrument which brings TG down. Incidentally, the price that TG will pay anyway and is already paying is the damage done to his own reputation. He's been given plenty chances to make some amends, but he choses to pour petrol on the flames, ably assisted by both you and 'Master' McGrath. Finally, doesn't it annoy you to have spent so much time trying to put down 'a manifest nobody' like myself? Haven't you worked it out yet? I don't care what you think about me anyway, so I will continue to argue against you no matter what you throw at me.

Anonymous said...

http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2008/05/engage-hypocties-support-finkelsteins.html
'Honestly, I appreciate this and will be more careful in the future. I'm no big fan of Atzmon and Shamir.'

Mr. Greenstein, You should show the evidence of the sentence.

You are not clarifying even the contact method.

joe90 said...

I can't be bothered with this, but as it will only take a minute or two of unstrenious comment by myself...

I couldn't care less which insult you come up with next
- then stop complaining about being abused, but I know you won't, as you are a worthless idiot with nothing to say.

I don't care what you think about me anyway, so I will continue to argue against you no matter what you throw at me.
- a typical goch-ism
I don't care anything about you so don't worry about telling me you aren't worried or are worried etc etc.

According to your thinking 'foreigners' should not have opinions
- goch rubbish still trying to pull the old 'bait and switch' routine. First I was just simply racist and xenophobic, but now I'm not. I'm racist for some other different reason entirely.
Say one thing, then when it's taken seriously and rebuffed, say you meant something else entirely - and then claim you aren't being taken seriously and are being abused.
A sad old routine for washed-up internet-pseuds pretending to be washed-up revolutionaries.

To say that there was and is a great deal of anti-semitism is not the same thing as agreeing with it, but that is too complicated for you to understand.
- Which has nothing to do with atzmon or rizzo saying that the victims of nazi racism were unpopular, hence the reason for the nazi concentration and extermination camps and nazi atrocities.
I take it goch 0, you agree with atzmon's statement in his article that...
...the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago.
'Saying NO to the Hunters of Goliath' Aug 2007

...if he is to make serious allegations against anyone, if he is to stoop to low abuse, as he does frequently, then I expect him to take proper responsibility for his own words and that must mean being prepared to admit who he really is...
- care to prove any of this rubbish, goch nobody?
In fact, the unspecified allegations which you declare are so serious, prevent you from disproving them.
They're so serious, they even prevent you from presenting them and stating your own case.
That's how serious you take them, and that's how serious others take you - just like atzmon your glorious leader, a bag of empty wind.

Finally, doesn't it annoy you to have spent so much time trying to put down 'a manifest nobody' like myself? Haven't you worked it out yet? I don't care what you think about me anyway, so I will continue to argue against you no matter what you throw at me.
- please provide your revolutionary cv here on the comments on azvas, and what about the kkk etc?


I would be very careful bandying words like 'fraud' around if I were you. Personally, I couldn't care less which insult you come up with next, but you might just run into someone who is more inclined to view libel more seriously. Don't forget, legal action would involve not only yourself, but also the site on which your libel was broadcast, so your zeal might be the very instrument which brings TG down.
- yawn!

Done.

all the best azvas!

Tony Greenstein said...

No, Atzmon & Mary aren't anti-Semitic because I say so but because everything they do and write is. Things like 'Jewish Power', saying that being Jewish = being a Zionist, praising The Radical Press, linking to David Duke, do I need to contiue?!!!!

'But, let's get beyond this tautology: Tony and Joe say Mary and Gilad are AS, and they are because Tony says so!!!'

And yes, I think it is irrelevant that Mary is a 'foreigner'. As far as I'm concerned we are all foreigners. Its her ideas not where she comes from that matters. Of course someone who defends Israel Shamir, who holds that Auschwitz was an internment camp, and who Atzmon believes is a 'unique and advanced thinker' according to an e-mail he sent me is a racist. But I wouldn't say that Mary is typical of Italians. Apart from Denmark, Italy had the highest survival rate of any Jewish community in Europe during the Nazi holocaust.

The reason I'm not responding much this week is that I'm at UNISON Conference this week and I have more important things to do thatn queue up for half an hour to use a computer. Today the pro-Palestinian motion was passed despite vehement Zionist opposition calling for sanctions, disinvestment etc. I spoke last, as a Jewish anti-Zionist. These things are more important than the nonsense of Goch and his anti-Semitic associates.

As for the evidence of what Norman Finkelstein wrote. It's in my inbox!! The fact is that any genuine anti-Zionist or anti-racist will not think much of someone like Atzmon who seriously asserts that the more Jewish anti-Zionists oppose Zionism the more Zionist they are!! In other words being Jewish is to be Zionist, as the BNP/NF and the Zionists themselves say.

So Goch. Maybe you'd like to comment on the 'In Not My Name' essay of Atzmon or is it too difficult for you, and maybe his 'On anti-Semitism' article in which he puts the various Jewish conspiracy theories forward.

Fact is that noone has heard of Goch/Jones because he never did anything for 30 years!

Tony G

Anonymous said...

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=640441812647446166&postID=8297650883031257251&page=1&isPopup=true
As for the evidence of what Norman Finkelstein wrote.

Mr. Greenstein, Is Finkelstein confirming your evidence?


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/

Where of here is evidence?





https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=640441812647446166&postID=8297650883031257251&page=1&isPopup=true
But I wouldn't say that Mary is typical of Italians.
Apart from Denmark, Italy had the highest survival rate of any Jewish community in Europe during the Nazi holocaust.

Rizzo is never interested in ""Risiera Di San Sabba"" at all.






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ER1sRYDAYY
http://www1.yadvashem.org/remembrance/yom_hazicaron/links_Torchlighters.html
Esther Eisen
Esther Eisen was born in 1929 in Lodz, Poland, to a family of four.
In 1939, after the German invasion, the family was relocated to the ghetto.
Crowded into one room with her aunt, cousin and another woman, and with no income, it was difficult to subsist.
After her eldest brother died of starvation and her mother fell ill, Esther found a job making artificial flowers.

In September 1942 the Jews were commanded to report to the courtyards; the elderly, children and the sick—including Esther’s mother—were taken to Chelmno.
Esther soon fell ill herself with typhus, but she later recovered and returned to work.
In August 1944, the ghetto was liquidated and the remaining Jews—including Esther and her father—were transported to Auschwitz.
The men and women were separated immediately upon arrival, and after ten days, Esther was sent to Bomlitz labor camp.
A month later she was transferred to Bergen-Belsen, and then to Elsnig, where she worked until April 1945.


Mr. Greenstein, Why was not Esther Eisen murdered in the gas chambers?

Paul Eisen will be able to return to Israel if Paul Eisen withdraws "The Holocaust Wars".

Do you want to collect Eisen clan in Israel?

Master McGrath said...

I'm going to bite my tongue on the subject of our interaction with Goch. He's such a genius he must surely be one step ahead of us...

Well, the man who jumped in hurling accusations of Moassad (under the mistaken Impression this was a Jewsih site... now where did he get that idea..) has still contributed nothing to any debate.

Even his points of contention, he buckpasses to someone else, (points which the subjects of the well-researched material don't seem to contend- indeed have conformed much voluntarily).

I can only assume that Atzmon's doing some Method research for a cover version of 'Send in the Clowns', perhaps backed by @Make 'em Laugh'

Tony Greenstein said...

I see the Atzmonites & Rizzo groupies don't like what I quoted from Norman Finkelstein!! Tough. I need to prove nothing since I have all the proof that is necessary. Why should someone who is a serious scholar think highly of the warblings and witterings and verbal diarrohea of Atzmon? A man who is incapable of putting forward a straightforward thesis of his own and instead hides his racist nuggets behind thickets of prose?

And you see the filth that is encrusted around Rizzo/Atzmon. Apparently an Esther Eisen survived the Lodz Ghetto and Bergen-Belsen so the question is why she was not gassed. Presumably this is the 'proof' that there were no gas chambers.

But no it just demonstrates the ignorance of the Atzmon/Shamir/Rizzo Holocaust Denial clan. Lodz survived the longest of any ghettos though it was wiped out in late 1944. The head of its Judenrat (Jewish Council) was the notorious Zionist Chaim Rumkowski.

Not everyone who went to Auschwitz was murdered in the gas chambers. Many of course were shot, others died of starvation and others were selected for labour. Auschwitz was both a labour and extermination camp, unlike Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec, so yes people survived. Bergen-Belsen was an exchange, transit camp not an extermination camp. But only a madman would therefore claim taht because some people survived, therefore noone was gassed.

In fact a minority of Jews who were murdered died in gas chambers but Eisen & his clique are too stupid to take the trouble to examine the history of the holocaust they purport to know so much about. Up to 2 million died at the hands of the Einsatzgruppen and Order Police in Russia.

But of the gas chambers there is no doubt. Gas was first used to kill disabled children but no doubt Eisen & his foul clique deny that too. From 'euthenasia' to racial extermination was an easy step and even David Irving, who at least knows some history, admits that.

But Rizzo's neo-Nazi clique of friends of course have their own motives for trying to deny the holocaust and support for the Palestinians isn't amongst the reasons.

Suffice to say that at the conference of Britain's 2nd largest union, UNISON, we again passed policy supporting the Palestinians. What does Atzmon do apart from attack Jews in the anti-Zionist camp?

Tony Greenstein

REJ GOCH said...

The question of your abuse was raised in the context of my posts being edited because of alleged abuse on my part. In the first place, I denied abuse. In the second I compared what I had said with what you routinely say, without ever being edited out.

You keep asking for me to rfeute your various libels. I have given you one example of where they are refuted. Just because you can't be bothered to check it out, don't expect me to repeat it all over again.

What is this obsession with my cv, especially from someone who hasn't even got the guts to own up as to his own identity?

Given TG's history with 'quotation', he's not very wise to add some more to his catalogue.

Master McGrath, from behind the continuing shelter of his pseudonym makes some pretty wonderful assumptions. One joke about Mossad and straight away he leaps to my thinking that this is a Jewish site.In the first place he doesn't recognise a joke when he sees on. In the second he doesn't get the joke. I was surprised at firts, but the more I see his posts the more understandable it is.
All this and they still haven't answered for the lie that started all of this off. PRICELESS!

Anonymous said...

http://www.ejpress.org/article/26099

Mr. Greenstein, Do you speak for an claim of Riccardo Pacifici?

Riccardo Pacifici is the totally same as you.

Rizzo is the only Italian Jewish who can criticize Riccardo Pacifici.

Rizzo is never interested in Holocaust Pogrom Khmelnytsky Uprising Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Masada at all.

http://www.masada2000.org/list-QR.html

Rizzo is a petty person ignored by Masada2000.





https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=640441812647446166&postID=8297650883031257251&page=1&isPopup=true
Auschwitz was both a labour and extermination camp, unlike Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec, so yes people survived.

There is neither the building nor the official document in Treblinka Sobibor Belzec and Chelmno.

Do you have evidence since you assert?

You should clarify the kind of the engine and the poisonous gas.

Why ware not Anne Frank and Esther Eisen murdered in the gas chambers?

What kind of labour did Anne Frank and Esther Eisen do?

mary said...

Tony,
don't worry, you can take all the time you want to avoid amitting that your intial posting is pure lies.

It does not take a genius to look at 1) the site run by Gilad, Haitham and myself, 2) the site run by NF that runs posts from our site, 3) your site that ran a post about his situation days later - claiming that Gilad and I were cheering about his troubles when we actually had posted action alerts about it!!!

Any harassment you do to other people is duly noted and don't worry, we like truth to come out, and naturally, it will! No matter how many smears you make, seems that over 300 very active people in Palestinian activism (and you can use the David Duke slur all you want, because you get your lies from Harry's People and other Zionist sources, yet if anyone else did the same, they are called collaborators or something) told you in no uncertain terms where to go and what they think of you. Even Shraga, your pal who condemns the boycott actively had to eat crow with his lies and insinutations that you were anxious to feed him, but unfortunately for you both, were untrue (not that you apologise... you are incapable of admitting you are walking all over banana peels). But, to be even more interesting for this discourse, why not ask your good friend and Engager, Euston Manifest signatory Brian Robinson where I got a copy of Jewish Power... It was Brian himself who sent it to me... wonder of wonders! How will he ever compensate for his sin? I think that he's already done so by his funny comments about your attempts of posting junk all over church property in Brighton!!

Please, tell us again it was not a church! I love it when you say something and then later I show what you wrote that contradicts it! You are a source of entertainment.

Joe's comments are just too stupid to even bother with now, as Rej has thoroughly exposed racist, small minded Joe.

joe90 said...

Joe's comments are just too stupid to even bother with now, as Rej has thoroughly exposed racist, small minded Joe.
- No worries Mary Rizzo.
Clutching at the usual straws.

Claiming others are racist when you can't prove it, is the sort of thing I expect from antisemites like yourself, who openly attack people because they are anti-zionist and anti-racist.

So what is the proper nomenclature for someone who isn't from Britian and lives in Italy - and what exactly is racist about calling you a foreigner and Italian (especially as it was in the context of making an important point about the nature of grass-roots activism)?

I do notice you orchestrate internet hate campaigns from your foreign base in Italy against British anti-zionists - especially against British Jewish anti-zionists in particular.
You seem to spend so much time on your 'pissingonpalestine' blog on obscure British towns, such as Brighton.
I'm sure your fixation with the south of England is a big help to home-grown Italian grass-roots anti-zionist activism and Palestinian solidarity.

Mary Rizzo's idea of Palestinian grass-roots solidarity is to call people racist if they dare question her about what she is doing about her own responsiblity in crimes against Palestinians committed by her government, in her name, using her taxes.

Maybe Mary Rizzo thinks the tax-paying electorate of Brighton are the people best placed to influence Italian government policy perhaps, rather than Italian voters such as herself. Hence the reason she expends so much time on Brighton.
A typical example of mary's genius I'm afraid. All over the place, to no purpose, and disrupting Palestinian solidarity because people aren't telling her how brilliant an individual she is.

Mary, how does supporting, defending and disseminating neo-nazi propaganda about the victims of the nazis help Palestinians?

mary said...

Joe, for one second try to reason (if you are able). Look at the claim of the post Tony has written. Like many others on his site, it has been demonstrated to be utterly and entirely false.

You defend it to the limit, knowing it is false.

One has to ask why. What's in it for you to blatantly plod on when you are merely repeating stuff that no one really cares about when the actual question is your position on this very simple, evident and clear contradiction: Tony's claims and the truth.

No need to climb over mirrors to act as if your comments are anything more than what they are to anyone who knows how to read: insults and attempts to be clever while falling all over yourself trying to do character assassination based on mobile criterion.

It seems the bigger problem is one you have, not me. John Hilley, Rej and anyone else who bothered for a moment to allow you to vent your spleen has seen through you and Tony, and you need Mr McGrath, because it's got to be lonely where the three of you are campaigning. Everyon else has you sussed out!

mary said...

Actually, Hilley's comments are extremely acute and he has been able to also see the "tone" of your interventions for what they are, negative contributions to any kind of dialogue.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=1725411122663433189&postID=165999011885801473&page=1

I am sure you are familiar with his comments, although for sure you do not understand them whatsoever. Read them again. It's cheaper than going to an analyist Joe and Tony.

joe90 said...

Yes, sure mary, whatever.
I'm trying to find something of substance in your bletherings but, as usual, there isn't any.

I merely repeat points already made, which you can't face.

Because atzmon has defined Jews as zionists purely for being Jewish, then Jewish (ie zionist) Dr Finkelstein getting thrown out of Israel should be something that you support - that is, if you believe the antisemitic garbage spouted by your glorious leader atzmon.
Obvioulsy, you don't actually understand anything about the implications that come with supporting atzmon psudeo-philosophical tosh about Judaism and Jewish Peoples.

Reasoning isn't your strong suite at all mary.

Further to that, of course, is that according to you and atzmon, Dr Finkelstein's parents, who were the victims of nazi atrocities, got what the deserved from Hitler for not doing enough to make themselves popular amongst the Nazi Party hierarchy.

After all, why would those paradigms of civilised values, the Nazis, herd Dr Finkelstein's parents into racist ghettos and then into extermination/concentration camps?

...and he has been able to also see the "tone" of your...
Yes, its' all about 'tone' rather than say, the contents perhaps - maybe someone should build a concentration camp and put me in it, for not being as popular and for not having an 'outstanding personality' as you do, mary, antisemitic belle of the ball.

...mirrors...to allow you to vent your spleen
- A perfect description of your bizzare behaviour on comments mary.

mary said...

Joe, are you REALLY that thick?

The issue, (which you seem to want to avoic as if it were the plague) is that Tony lied (again). There is ample evidence of it, (again) and you still act as if he is stating fact, and you yourself insist with some of your weird inferrence based on your idea that if I state a matter of fact that Jews in mid 20th C Europe were unpopular that this means I think they deserved extermination, that I therefore think that all Jews are Zionists, (where do I ever say this? come out with the direct quotes), and therefore think some other delirious things you invent.

Are you able to follow a simple thread of reasoning? I don't ask you to go on about some strange ideas you have, it's enough that you have been exposed as being unable to admit that Tony lies in continuation (for whatever reasons he has, seeing as how he thinks lying is an acceptable behaviour) and you refuse to address him on this and instead, pretend the question is not even out there. Talk about off topic.

But then again, John noticed your insulting and pretentious tone, his comments on Tony were spot on as well, but he debunked your reasoning in just a few lines. He was awarded with the dignity of having you simply retreat, as you could not defend anything you wrote, and used as a source to support Tony ... what??? Oh, Tony's site!

This is because Tony's site is the only place you will find support of Tony. He is that marginal of a character.

Just to whet your appetite, you will have a new lamb to bring to slaughter, as yet another activist has come forward with an analysis of the issue of Tony's obession with Gilad. It was forwarded to me and I will be publishing it in the coming days.

Seems as though the long time socialists in the UK have had it up to their ears in Tony, and are putting it into words. Tony should learn something from all of this, but the opposite is always true, he is incapable of learning from the observations by others or respecting their requests. As it is, his reputation is at an all time low, and seeing as how you are all into the "you are a no one" thing (how very socialist of you!) you refuse to listen to the observations people make and treat it all as some Anti Semitic Attack on your good selves. The world does not work this way, sooner or later, when you have lost the last three supporters (this is the issue of Tony, and Hilley worked out that it is his ego thing that keeps it rolling) maybe you can start to reflect on where you went wrong.

Waiting for your inane and insulting reply. Don't bother with it unless you are willing to address the bone of contention: the lie by Tony that is on the top of his post and which has been demonstrated to be false. You won't address it as usual!

PS Rej, Tony's deletion policies are a riot. He once wrote that if he ever had time for a site or blog, he would only delete Fascist and racist comments. He leaves up those by his buddies, who make all kinds of assumptions about Italians, of course, deletes those by others who show where he is lying, and better still, deleted a big post where I showed Joe contradicting himself over and over, calling Gilad The Great and much more besides, and this had to be deleted... why? because it shows that his only supporter is not able to keep his own ideas straight!

joe90 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
joe90 said...

[my apologies for deleting my previous post - I used a quote in the wrong place]

...if I state a matter of fact that Jews in mid 20th C Europe were unpopular that this means I think they deserved extermination...
- You said yourself mary, why else would anyone want to build concentration and extermination camps. It stands to reason according to you.
I don't know anybody else who reasons like this except antisemites disseminating neo-nazi propaganda, holocaust deniers and the like.
Who else reasons this way, besides antisemites like you and zionist historians disseminating zionist propaganda whom you are quite happy to use as an authority, mary?

...that I therefore think that all Jews are Zionists, (where do I ever say this? come out with the direct quotes), and therefore think some other delirious things you invent.
- So you don't support atzmon then, when he says all Jews are zionists?
As you aren't forthcoming, it's more than reasonable to assume that because you go to some length to defend atzmon then you share his main views on the subject of his main pre-occupation.
As you fail to clear up the matter despite objecting to the assumumption that you share atzmon's views - what's your own views on atzmon's main and only argument, basically, that all Jews are zionists, mary?

...John noticed your insulting and pretentious tone, his comments on Tony were spot on as well,...
- mary rizzo's favourite subject of window dressing, rather than issues of substance and content. How appropriate for someone with an 'outstanding personality' who claims -
Joe's comments are just too stupid to even bother with now, as Rej has thoroughly exposed racist, small minded Joe.
- who then immediately contradicts themselves by commenting to inordinate length.

He was awarded with the dignity of having you simply retreat, as you could not defend anything you wrote...
- Sure mary, whatever.
I notice you can't explain, either, what your antisemitism and your exploitation of the suffering of Palestinians, in order to peddle neo-nazi propaganda, has to do with solidarity with Palestinians. If you can, then please be my guest.

If there is any weaknesses or flaws in Tony Greenstein's arguments then feel free to correct them mary. Attacking the provenance of intellectual arguments isn't scientific methadology at all - just vacious propaganda by nobody's with nothing to say.
If antismeitic propagandists like you mary, did have anything constructive to contribute you would have offered it in a flash. The fact you can't deny or counter TG's arguments leaves you only with the tactic of mud slinging.

...as yet another activist has come forward with an analysis of the issue of Tony's obession with Gilad. It was forwarded to me and I will be publishing it in the coming days.
- Yes, I notice you are now running with this new slogan of yours of 'Tony's obsession' - it seems to play well to the gallery for you, hence you giving it as much of your empty hot-air as you used to do with your old obsession of 'gatekeeping'. I'm sure it will go the same way too.
Another rizzo scoop! I can hardly wait. It's just one sensationalist publicity stunt after another. Morons watch rizzo's space.

...and better still, deleted a big post where I showed Joe contradicting himself over and over, calling Gilad The Great and much more besides, and this had to be deleted.
I notice you trying your usual blackmail routine of bring up or threatening to publish people's private correspondence mary.
I'm sure everybody who corresponds with you will be glad to know you stoop to such low-life tactics in lieu of any credible intellectual arguments on your part.

...why? because it shows that his only supporter is not able to keep his own ideas straight!
- That's the trouble with having a brain mary. it prefers to think for itself rather than follow slavishly any drivel that you or atzmon care to spout. Try using your own sometime rather than having you told what to think by you guru atzmon.

Waiting for your inane and insulting reply. Don't bother with it unless you are willing to address the bone of contention
- It's called reasoning mary. Engage doesn't support a boycott and neither does your antisemitic guru atzmon, so basically they are just one and the same for all the difference it makes to Palestine solidarity.
Unless you know different, but as usual, you haven't stated your case just repeated empty allegations of lies with no counter argument, proof etc.

Anonymous said...

http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2008/05/engage-hypocties-support-finkelsteins.html
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=640441812647446166&postID=8297650883031257251&page=1&isPopup=true
'Honestly, I appreciate this and will be more careful in the future. I'm no big fan of Atzmon and Shamir.'

As for the evidence of what Norman Finkelstein wrote. It's in my inbox!!


Mr. Greenstein, Is Finkelstein confirming your evidence?


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/

Where of here is evidence?

joe90 said...

...another activist has come forward with an analysis of the issue of Tony's obession with Gilad. It was forwarded to me and I will be publishing it in the coming days.
- Another peer-reviewed article from rizzo's internet empire of insignificance - I wonder who is on rizzo's peer-review board and how they came by their qualifications?

Rej goch maybe, whose qualifications are known only to himself?

These new arguments do seem to be centred on 'Tony's obsession with Gilad' I've noticed.
As an old-time peer-reviewer of rizzo, I can see right away why this forthcoming article has got through rizzo's invisible peer-review process and made it onto her internet publishing empire, which she mistakes for actual real activism and solidarity, as well as reality.

REJ GOCH said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Tony Greenstein said...

I've deleted Goch's last comment. it says nothing and in fact is just another example of Goch's dishonesty. He has defended by omission Atzmon's clear Zionist politics (failed to answer my questions re Atzmon's 'Not in my name' about 10 times) but has the cheek to say I am in denial! And questions about how old Joe are are neither here nor there.

Tony Greenstein said...

An anonymous troll asks whether or not Norman Finkelstein is confirming that he doesn't have a high opinion of Atzmon & Shamir & co. I haven't asked him to confirm that he sent an e-mail to me as it is clear that he did!

If the anti-Semites and other conspiracy loonies are questioning the fact, just as they question many other facts that are obvious to other people, then they can ask him himself.

But since Norman F is a Jewish anti-Zionist and has used the experiences of his parents in the concentration/extermination camps to illustrate wider points of his politics, why should he think highly of holocaust deniers? After all, according to the idiot Atzmon, NF is a Zionist for being a Jew!!

Tony G

REJ GOCH said...

Simple censorship on the grounds that you don't like what you read. Kane and 'Master' Mcgrath can repeat themselves till they're blue in the face and their posts are not touched. They can abuse everyone in site and their posts are not touched. TG is the biggest hypocrite you could imagine. Everything you do confirms my opinion of you and that could hardly sink any lower.

Tony Greenstein said...

No it's not censorship of what I don't like. It's being bored with your continuous monotonous whine. Do you have anything to actually say Goch?

I've just posted a piece on a demonstration by religious Israeli nationalists through the Arab quarter of Jerusalem. Maybe you might have something to say on that or anything else of relevance to the Palestinians?

Or is defence of the tiny minority of anti-Semitic supporters of the Palestinians the only thing you are capable of?

Tony Greenstein

REJ GOCH said...

If I want to hear the authentic voice of Palestinians resisting Zionism, I go to Palestine Think Tank. The reason I repeat questions is that I am still waiting for an answer. You will not take reposnsibility for your own statements. You seem to think you are above it all, but you are not and you will be called to account. You are also responsible for the posts you allow from Kane and 'Master' Mcgrath and it is clear you don't use the same standards when it comes to the endless repatition and abuse that comes from them. You, of course, are free to repeat yourself ad infinitum and insult anyone you choose. I suppose it makes you feel Divine. Good job there are plenty of atheists about!

joe90 said...

You are also responsible for the posts you allow from Kane and 'Master' Mcgrath and it is clear you don't use the same standards when it comes to the endless repatition and abuse that comes from them.
- You have been asked on numerous occassions goch to state your case, provide your evidence and your agrguments - the fact you can't or won't means you don't have a case and therefore you are merely peddling false allegations that have no foundation and therefore you can't be taken seriously.

To be taken seriously, goch, you have to be serious yourself and prove what you allege.

If there is anything I have said you disagree with please state what you disagree with and why, providing counter-arguments and proofs.

None of this really needs to be said in a public forum dedicated to debate and the exploration of ideas - so it says a lot about goch that these basic principles have to be constantly repeated to him.

Another noteworthy aspect of internet blog comments is the way they are used to abuse others time and patience. goch is one such abuser - a complete waste of time and energy.
I only say this for the benefit of others, not for goch's. He's a lost case. I coulnd't care less what this internet imposter and fraud thinks.

You seem to think you are above it all, but you are not and you will be called to account.
- In what way 'called to account' rej nobody, except intellectually? Or do you mean some other way that you are going to make TG pay for his alleged crimes?

You are in no position to continue to issue this endless stream of threats against TG - pretending to be endlessly insulted by non-existent insults, when you obviously don't even take yourself seriously, so why should anyone else?

rej goch - a nobody with nothing to say whose credibility rests on a non-existent career of 40 years of revolutionary activity which they are unable to produce.

Tony Greenstein said...

The Palestine 'Think Tank' is the voice of Atzmon/Rizzo. I wasn't aware that they were authentic Palestinians though I do note that Goch is one of their co-editors, which probably says everything since he knows nothing about Zionism.

'GOCH said...
If I want to hear the authentic voice of Palestinians resisting Zionism, I go to Palestine Think Tank.'

I'm not sure what Goch wants an answer too. I know I've asked him for a few but he daren't upset his master, Gilad Atzmon, by criticising his 'Not in my name' essay or anything else for that matter.

'The reason I repeat questions is that I am still waiting for an answer.'

What on earth are you on about Goch. Of course I'm responsible for what I write. The fact that you are too dense to understand it is hardly my fault.

'You will not take reposnsibility for your own statements. You seem to think you are above it all, but you are not'

And who would that be by? The Collective of Anti-Semites i.e. Rizzo/Atzmon and it would appear Goch now?!!!

'and you will be called to account. You are also responsible for the posts you allow from Kane and 'Master' Mcgrath and it is clear you don't use the same standards... (tedium ad nauseum)

In fact Goch has nothing whatsoever to say about Zionism or the Palestinians. not surprising since he is a nobody who achieved no measure of recognition when he was formally active.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
joe90 said...

If I want to hear the authentic voice of Palestinians resisting Zionism, I go to Palestine Think Tank.
- Which is moderated by two non-Palestinian antisemitic gatekeepers called atzmon and rizzo, who also happen to be 'two outstanding personalities'.

I can just imagine the synthetic furore of these two non-Palestinians, and their non-entity supporters (none of whom are capable of supporting their 'two outstanding personalities' in an intellectual debate) if Jewish people took it upon themselves to moderate the 'authentic voice of Palestinians'. They would instantly be branded liberal gate-keepers, or some other turgid formulation to mask their antisemitism.

The fact that someone like atzmon who brands Palestinians as 'book-burners' and would probably be on the extreme right of 'Engage' as most of supporters and asscoiates of 'Harry's Place' blog are, doesn't seem to trouble the likes of goch nobody much.

Then again, why should it, as goch considers the likes of the PLO, the Arab League, Hamas, and Hezbollah as supporters of zionism. Same with occupied Palestinians and their opinions as collected, analysed and the finding published by bona fide Palestinian organisations led by bona fide Palestinian experts - they aren't the authentic voice of Palestinians at all. They're all zionists.

The authentic voice of Palestinians belong to antisemitic non-Palestinian gatekeeping outsiders, such as atzmon and rizzo.

Tony Greenstein said...

It seems that one of Mary and Atzmon's holocaust denial friends, masquerading as 'Anonymous' because these gutless fools usually are, has strayed onto the blog. I have therefore deleted its comment but will reply to the non-HD part of it.

It tries to suggest that the sentence from Norman Finkelstein isn't genuine by asking me to 'prove' it. And then it goes on to demonstrate what it means by also casting doubt on gas chambers or the Holocaust. I suspect that that is maybe why NF doesn't want to be seen to be too close to the Palestinian Think Tank lepers.

I don't need to prove anything, because I have all the proof I need! It asks me whether NF is confirming what he wrote. Why should he and why should I ask someone who sends me an e-mail to prove that they sent it? It seems quite genuine to me, came from the same account and I assume that Mossad didn't manage to somehow invent it since NF's parents both spent time in extermination camps and NF is under no doubt that there was a holocaust - unlike the fool who can't quite understand why NF isn't to keen to associate with racists and anti-Semites.

Nice try but you'll just have to accept you can't run with the foxes and hunt with the hounds!

TG

'Anonymous said...
http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2008/05/engage-hypocties-support-finkelsteins.html
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=640441812647446166&postID=8297650883031257251&page=1&isPopup=true
'Honestly, I appreciate this and will be more careful in the future. I'm no big fan of Atzmon and Shamir.'

As for the evidence of what Norman Finkelstein wrote. It's in my inbox!!


Mr. Greenstein, Is Finkelstein confirming your evidence?


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/

Where of here is evidence?



"""""I may confirm it to Finkelstein."""""

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
mary said...

Tony, you are the most misinformed chap in the universe. Try to document yourself first before making claims! Where to start??

The Palestine 'Think Tank' is the voice of Atzmon/Rizzo. I wasn't aware that they were authentic Palestinians though I do note that Goch is one of their co-editors, which probably says everything since he knows nothing about Zionism.

Mary: Rej is not one of our co-editors. The site is founded, run, edited, managed by Haitham Sabbah, Gilad and Myself. We have about 20 permanent "guest posters", and all the main head posts are by Arab writers. Each and every last one of them.

'GOCH said...
If I want to hear the authentic voice of Palestinians resisting Zionism, I go to Palestine Think Tank.'

TG: I'm not sure what Goch wants an answer too.(sic)

Mary: he said he wants to hear authentic voices of Palestinians who resist. You will find that there in buckets, 350 posts in less than three months. Have you ever bothered to post what Palestinians say? Does that matter to you?

TG: I know I've asked him for a few but he daren't upset his master, Gilad Atzmon, by criticising his 'Not in my name' essay or anything else for that matter.

Mary: only in a warped world like yours do people have Masters. Think about it. Keep your eyes tuned to PTT, there is a report coming up that analyses your views on NIMN... written by someone who knows neither you nor Gilad, but who came to his conclusions. It's someone who you don't have to continually put down (just like Joe does) for being a "nobody", because it's someone who has been an activist for 50 years, so the experience is there.

TG: In fact Goch has nothing whatsoever to say about Zionism or the Palestinians. not surprising since he is a nobody who achieved no measure of recognition when he was formally active.

Mary: what a sanctimonious joker you are! Do you bother to reflect upon how you sound?!!! Someone open the windows, there is a burst of hot air every time Tony tries to put down others for not being "somebody". Sick.

JFTR: you have some cheek to go on about H survivors... remember Hajo Mayer who thinks you and Shraga are sick in the head? He does. You should not exhibit track records where you are demonstrated to be a fool...just as you are demonstrated here to be a hypocrite and a liar, but you can't seem to own up to it! Must be a pain being you.

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