Paul Bogdanor and/or Professor Steve Plaut Sink to New Lows as He Pretends To Be Gilad Atzmon on Sheffield Indymedia
(not that there's much difference!)
The announcement is posted in the name of Gilad Atzmon but there are good reasons to believe, for once, that he is not the one responsible. It would appear to be the work of either two far-right Zionists - Mad Mikey Ezra, an ex-collaborator of Atzmon and Zionist Paul Bogdanor, the deranged son of the eminently boring but sane constitutional historian, Vernon Bogdanor. or one Steve Plaut. The term ‘Stalinazi’ is not one that Atzmon uses.
Steve Plaut is an open supporter of the fascist Jewish Defence League (of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane) as is, believe it or not, a Professor at Haifa University!
Clues include the use of the word ‘cornhold’. This is, I am told, a homophobic remark and these Zionists frequently resort to such bigoted and infantile ‘humour’. Particularly against Roland Rance. It ties in with their politics. To my knowledge, Atzmon isn’t homophobic unlike the aforementioned Zionists.
Bogdanor is a virulent anti-communist who exaggerates the crimes of Stalin, associates them through ‘guilt by association’ with socialists and Trotskyites and of course has a selective blind eye when it comes to the crimes of the West and the USA e.g. Iraq, Israel, Vietnam etc. He has a particular focus on Noam Chomsky and has penned ‘200 lies’ about him. A good and reasoned expose of a sample of these ‘lies is here.
Bogdanor also seems to be camera shy. A book he co-wrote with Edward Alexander has the former’s picture but Bogdanor doesn’t seem to like being exposed to the light of the day.
What is pretty outrageous though is that this posting is still up on both Sheffield and UK Indymedia. Sheffield apparently thinks that ‘hiding’ the post somehow makes it alright. UK IM hasn’t bothered to do even that. I have written to Sheffield IM, who didn’t even have the courtesy to reply to my post before hiding Bogdanor's.
This blog was originally set up because UK Indymedia allowed Gilad Atzmon to post a variety of anti-Semitic holocaust denial nonsense and a couple of anti-Semites, led by Free The Peeps (Roy Bard) blocked any decision to take them down and indeed hid criticism of those who disagreed with Atzmon. See An Open Letter to IM, IM finally replies to its critics, IM update atzmon beats a retreat, The hornets nest and the stick an IM UK update,
Let us see if they have improved over the years. Below is my post to Sheffield IM. One can assume that other IMs may have been targeted. Let us hope they are not as stupid as Sheffield’s lot are.
Tony Greenstein
From: tony greenstein
Sent: Saturday, 14 January 2012, 6:13
Subject: Our premature deaths announced by Jazz Fascist Atzmon
Is there a good reason why you are posting an article by holocaust denier Gilad Atzmon announcing the death of 2 anti-Zionist activists - Roland Rance & myself?
Please take it down and ensure this rat doesn't post again
Tony Greenstein
I wrote a further e-mail to them:
I sent you an e-mail earlier today. You haven't had the courtesy to respond and you have instead hidden the post (after a fashion). In fact the post is probably not from Atzmon but a far-right Zionist Paul Bogdanor, but that matters little.
Fact is that this should have been scrubbed, you should have apologised for putting it up and provided some explanation for why it wasn't spotted.
It would seem that, once again, any fascist or their sympathisers can post on Indy Media - the 'alternative' news media. Some alternative.
From: tony greenstein
To: "tech@lists.indymedia.org.uk"
Sent: Saturday, 14 January 2012, 18:47
I have come across an article announcing the funeral of Roland Rance and myself. It is somewhat premature! It is allegedly posted by the anti-semitic Gilad Atzmon but given the style is more than likely to come from uber Zionist Paul Bogdanor. Please take it down, don't hide it, it is entirely without merit (and is also homophobic).
From: tony greenstein
To: "mrdemeanour@jackpot.uk.net"
Sent: Saturday, 14 January 2012, 19:01
Subject: Report of my 'funeral' by Atzmon/Bogdanor
I have just come across this disgusting post. It is allegedly by the anti-Semite Gilad Atzmon but I suspect it is the ultra-Zionist Paul Bogdanor. Regardless please remove, i.e. not hide, this post.
I would hate us to have to go to war again over something like this.
And please have the courtesy to inform me.
I shall also blog on this because you should not have allowed it to remain up.
Tony Greenstein
Uhhhhh tonyle is defending Atzmon.....
ReplyDeleteBird of the feather fly together....
I think not. I know the difference between Atzmon and an Israeli fascist and his sympathisers.
ReplyDeleteAlthough it would seem that Gilad (who is the poster) wishes to cause as much confusion as possible.
You didn't explain why you thought it was Bogdanor and Plaut specifically.
ReplyDeleteIf you have some examples of their previous form we might be getting to the source of the mystery random guerrilla obscene Rance/Greenstein postings on Socialist Unity - the style is too close for coincidence.
I remember the term 'cornhole' from William Burroughs books; it seems to refer to the tradesman's entrance/North-West Passage/Hershey highway...
You may not be aware, but last year the same bunch who were blocking the removal of said Atzmon piece a few years back, hijacked the indymedia.org.uk domain, locking out everyone else. They are now in charge of that site, without any of the people who were arguing for the take down at the time.
ReplyDeleteThank you for this. I gathered that something was up last night when Roy bard (free the peeps) intervened and a message to mods has been blocked. It would seem he is up to his old tricks. I will post his posts to me later but basically he objects to having been called an anti-Semite by me 3-4 years ago.
ReplyDeleteI said to peeps. Disavow the article you went to the stake over, Hunters of Goliath, and recant over your allegation that we 'smeared' Israel Shamir and of course I will retract.
He blocked the message to all the other mods, so it looks as if u r right after all
I am informed that 'cornhole' is I think an American slang for anal intercourse.
ReplyDeleteThe term 'greenstalin' comes from Bogdanor's attacks on me at a site he set up. Roland is convinced it is Plaut 'stalinazi'. These arseholes work together to defame people and have done it on the alef list, which is run from Haifa.
Anyway this message is sent from purgatory!
The post still seems to be up on the South Coast section of the site:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/southcoast/2011/12/490518.html
Thanks.
ReplyDeleteIs it a separate part of IM now the South Coast or part of IM UK? I ask because free the peeps (Roy Bard) who blocked action against Atzmon in 2007-8 is back in charge at IM UK and I have had a little discussion with him when he intervened to say that if he had known about it he would have kept the post up.
Which just goes to show that anti-Semites & Zionists are much the same thing.
Have you resolved your contradictory stance on hiding posts on Indymedia yet?
ReplyDeleteOn the one hand you complain that:
"You blocked other members of the IM Collective seeing all the posts, at least 40, possibly much more, that you had hidden. That was Gehrig's accusation at the time, but I'm really not going to go back 3 years to look at all these things now. The issue was settled and Atzmon departed."
4 January 2012 19:25
To which I replied:
"Anyone including IMCistas can see the hidden posts. They're freely available both in the admin panel and through the 'view all posts' functions of the site. So theres you getting it wrong yet again."
4 January 2012 21:09
and you said:
"Well if anyone can see a hidden post (in fact they can't, they don't turn up in searches and I only knew because I was given the link by those who were on the collective) why hide them in the first place."
5 January 2012 04:22
You're also wrong about gehrig being in the collective - he is from Indymedia urbana-champaign
(above three comments from http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2012/01/holocaust-denial-and-anti-semitism-have.html)
The reason hiddens can be read is exactly so that mods can't delete stuff so nobody can see it. All mods can read hiddens through admin, and anybody can read them via the view all posts function:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/viewallposts.html
You can find some of the attacks on you on this page:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/viewallposts6569.html
Anyway having said that a member of the collective gave you the links (which was untrue) you then complained that members of the collective couldn't read them (which was also untrue)
So, are you in favour of deleting all posts which an admin deems to have breached the editorial guidelines - (so that no-one can read them) - or of them being hidden in a way that they can be read by the other mods and site readers to ensure that the system isn't being abused?
You of course moderate comments on your blog, so no-one has any idea how many you never let through. Do you think we should maybe stop being an Indymedia and be just like you?
Peeps
ReplyDeleteif what u say is true, then what is the purpose of having hidden posts? In any case a posting, alleged to be by Gilad Atzmon, announcing my death and that of Roland Rance, but in fact from Kahane Zionists should have been deleted and you should have been the first to do so.
The context of me putting them up on a blog is ENTIRELY different. I'm posting them to show the depths to which Zionists sink. On IM they appear as stories to be read. Surely that isn't difficult to comprehend?
Most people are not aware of how to access hidden posts and the question remains why did you hide critical posts of the decision, your decision, to keep Atzmon's anti-Semitic posts up.
Being wrong 3 years ago and seeing nothing wrong with the Hunters of Goliath article are one and the same. But if you accept that Atzmon's article is anti-Semitic, regardless of what happened 3 years ago (which we can write off as a tactical misjudgement then I'm happy to withdraw the accusation.
But if you really do think a line can be drawn between what the Jews of Europe suffered and what Israeli Jews are doing and that the Jews of Europe brought their own demise upon themselves, because of their actions, then there is no retraction. It can't be more simple.
I do not delete well argued, or even tedious posts, as per your last two. I delete the extremely abusive posts that I get from Zionists primarily, the kind which celebrated the death of my father or rejoiced over the death of anti-Zionists.
I have published reasoned posts from Paul Eisen and Mary Rizzo and Gilad Atzmon and of course yourself.
However a blog is not the same as an alternative News Media, which Indymedia is.
TG: "But if you really do think a line can be drawn between what the Jews of Europe suffered and what Israeli Jews are doing and that the Jews of Europe brought their own demise upon themselves, because of their actions, then there is no retraction. It can't be more simple."
ReplyDeleteThat is your interpretation of the text - it isn't what it actually says. And I don't buy your interpretation having discussed the matter with Atzmon. So heres the thing: I don't in any way think that that "the Jews of Europe brought their own demise upon themselves, because of their actions".
I think the responsibility for their deaths lay with those who executed them.
So, I'm an anti-semite because I don't buy your interpretation of the text.
Are you ready to answer the question yet? Are you in favour of deleting stuff so that no-one can read it - or of having an accountable way of doing it which means other admins and users can check what is hidden?
Posts are hidden because they breach the guidelines, but they are readable so people can know what is hidden and that an Indymedia admin has decided it breaches the guidelines ie that its not a post thats approved by Indymedia.
One of which is this:
"Concerns about editorial guidelines or queries about moderation are dealt with on the imc-uk-moderation list. These issues are not dealt with through the newswire, and newswire posts on these topics will be hidden."
If people are genuinely concerned about moderation then they can use the list to discuss the issue (as long as they don't then use it to start being abusive). More admins read the list than the posts.
Is that difficult to understand? Gehrig as an IMCista chose to act as a troll. And he got treated as one. Simples...
Your post demonstrates that you are very concerned about what is written about you on the Internet. But at the same time, the post demonstrates you do not care about what you ascribe to others based on no evidence.
ReplyDeleteYou have used your post to suggest that either one or more than of Mikey Ezra, Paul Bogdanor and Steve Plaut is responsible for the post on Indymedia but have presented zero evidence to suggest any of them are involved. The best you seem to have is that terms that you allege that one or more of people have used in the past were used in the post on Indymedia. It is hardly compelling evidence even if it were true that one or more of these people used these terms in the past. But you have not even presented any evidence to show they have - all you have done is just claimed it.
It seems to me that your post is libellous.
If anyone has been libelled it is myself and Roland Rance. the evidence points very strongly to Plaut, Bogdanor and co. If it is libellous they can sue me. But the evidence is clear. Steven Plaut described me, in his campaign against the Alef list, hosted by Haifa University Professor Avraham Oz a 'Stalinist British anti-Semite'. http://isracampus.org.il/Campus%20sub%20pages/haifa%20u.htm
ReplyDeleteThere are many other examples.
To ftp. The article 'Saying No to the Hunters of Goliath' was extremely clear. let me quote:
'Hitler was indeed defeated, Jews are now more than welcome in Germany and in Europe, yet, the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago. Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded the Israelis and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place. Would the Zionists understand the real meaning of their Holocaust, the contemporary Israelite may be able to prevent the destruction that may be awaiting them in the future.
http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2007/08/gilad-atzmon-saying-no-to-hunters-of.html
It is blindingly obvious, Atzmon's denials to you notwithstanding. Israel's Jews 'are at least as unpopular' as their grandparents 6 decades ago in Europe. And why? Because they have not internalised the 'real meaning' of the Holocaust. How else can one construe this other than that the Jews of Europe were unpopular because they engaged in the same practices as Israeli Jews today, i.e. they brought their own tragedy on their own heads.
This to me is clearly and explicitly anti-Semitic. I'm sorry you didn't see it then. Maybe on reflection you will see it now. As I've said already, I'm happy to accept, having never met you, that on a personal level you are not anti-Semitic but on a political level you have supported someone who is deeply anti-Semitic - both politically and personally.
I don't believe in hiding stuff that should not have been there in the first place. Why not have the BNP send their stuff to IM. Sure you'll hide it but anyone who follows your advice can read it. is that what you want? It is a nonsense position and you know it.
I have answered the question. I am in favour of deleting racist and reactionary crap. Period.
You were the main person 4+ years ago who blocked the removal of Atzmon's stuff, despite its clear and obvious racism. You need to address your role then and admit you fucked up and got it seriously wrong.
This is ridiculous. You can not be seriously suggesting that because Steven Plaut (if he did) call you a "Stalinist British anti-Semite" that it is evidence that it was him who referred to you and Roland Rance as "Stalinazis." Perhaps you are attempting this. I would be surprised if anyone agreed with your required standard of "evidence" to imply someone is guilty.
ReplyDeleteSecondly you have provided absolutely nothing to give any weight to your suggestion that Mikey Ezra or Paul Bogdanor might have been involved.
Your behaviour in this regard is despicable.
Tony
ReplyDeleteOnly days ago you wrote:
" I have no wish whatsoever to rerun the debates over Atzmon and the campaign of 3 years ago. "
https://lists.indymedia.org.uk/pipermail/moderation/2012-January/000382.html
Perhaps you've forgotten all those emails 3 years ago.
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-uk-features/2007-October/date.html
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-uk-features/2007-November/date.html
You listed similar reasons then, and you didn't convince me then, nor now. I have no desire to waste more hours of my life with you insisting that you are always right and that unless I agree with you I am a racist.
As to this:
TG: "You were the main person 4+ years ago who blocked the removal of Atzmon's stuff, despite its clear and obvious racism."
You can't get into your head that I stood aside, can you? Your main problem is that you can't identify who did block, so you can't hound them. And if anyone thinks you are a credible smearer then I don't give a damn what they think of me.
TG: " You need to address your role then and admit you fucked up and got it seriously wrong."
It is as clear as anything that you are incapable of following your own advice. One of the few things where there was consensus over the so-called Atzmon affair is minuted thus:
Agree that what Greenstein has done and his campaign has been disruptive. All agreed this was the case.
Proposal to ban Greenstein from the lists with arguing about this and hide posts about this on the lists and disruptive posts in general. This is already been done.
and 3 years on you launch into another bout of the same behaviour > demanding> attacking > insulting.
Have you thought of setting up the anti-zionist defence league yet?
It seems like the obvious next move.
I really do have more important things to deal with than your vitriolic obsession.
That is all
FTP:
ReplyDelete”That is your interpretation of the text - it isn't what it actually says.”
Oh, come off it son! I’m a non-Jewish ‘anti-Zionist’ and I can see the antisemitism dripping from that passage, it really isn’t hard to see. Now, if that was the only passage in that vein it would be worth seeking clarification from GA but he’s got a book full of that stuff! You’re as stubborn as a mule.
And as Gehrig pointed out at that time, GA’s endorsement of the fool Eisen has little to do with promoting ‘free and independent’ enquiry re. the holocaust: the holocaust ‘revisionists’ are about as independent thinking as the (very few) quack-sciencers who support Intelligent Design, it follows the same dynamic.
So Atzmon is guilty as sin, so is Eisen and yet you want to associate with Atzmon, why? Cos’ he’s a nice bloke (it’s been said) who plays great jazz?
Israel and Zionism have sure managed to devalue the term ‘antisemitism’ to near meaningless and sadly some in our ‘camp’ seem to have found license to say borderline (and beyond) racist things about Jews because of it. As a result these few cause the Zionists to try and deligitimise the anti-Zionist/Palsol movement all the time. Unfortunately these few provide our enemies gefundenes fressen, free of charge, gratis and on demand.
Is that who you want to be? An instrument in the attempted deligitimisation of a legitimate movement? Don’t be one ‘who doesn’t get it’.
Distance yourself from the quackery of Atzmon/Eisen and be done with it! And put an end to this feud: its' been going far too long...
FTP
ReplyDeletethat's right. I don't wish to rerun the interminably boring debate with you of 3 years ago. Yes you did your best to block the removal of Atzmon and u r still defending him.
I know I didn't convince you then because there are some people who cannot be convinced, e.g. holocaust deniers. You just have to accept that their politics are different and leave it at that.
When I'm wrong I admit it but not over this.
My recollection is that you did anything but stand aside. You were up to your neck in it.
I'm really not interested in who did what 4+ years ago, y does it matter? There are more important things in heaven and earth!
It's a lie that I have begun this again. I merely e-mailed IM to say that my death had been put up with Roland Rance. It was signed by Atzmon but doesn't seem his style and is a straight down the line Zionist fascist ala Plaut or Bogdanor
Anon
ReplyDeleteThe language is that of Pleut dunderhead. This is his style and that of Bogdanor. Therefore I strongly suggest they are the ones.
Plaut is someone who regularly libels all around him. He is a naked fascist tell us what ur interest is scumbag? Why r u defending a fascist who would murder a million Palestinians without a 2nd thought?
Scum like u have no proof that Moses and Joshua ever existed but on that you base your assertion
The only one whose behaviour is despicable are the Kach fascists like Plaut and Bogdanor and scum like you.
I had to feed my child so I had to cut my last reponse early.
ReplyDeleteI should add that Sheffied Indymedia has done the decent thing and deleted the said post.
IM UK, under the influence of FTP of course has not done so.
Peeps says that 'unless I agree with you I am a racist' No Peeps, I've never said that. Plenty of people disagree with me whom I wouldn't dream of accusing of racism. I call you a racist because you support someone who is a holocaust denier and justifies the holocaust (when he's not denying it - because he's full of contradictions) by saying that the Jews' made themselves unpopular, just like their brothers in Israel.
If that's not racist then fine peeps and the moon is made of green cheese.
I actually don't care who apparently blocked my posts 4+ years ago. As far as I'm concerned it was you, directly or indirectly, but y the fuck should I be bothered as to which nonentity amongst IM UK's collective did it?
As for the jointly agreed resolution banning me by the said mods. I considered it an honour to have been banned by a bunch of gutless 'radicals' who tolerated another bunch of racists and anti-Semites.
Does that penetrate your shell like skull?
Gert said: " Now, if that was the only passage in that vein it would be worth seeking clarification from GA but he’s got a book full of that stuff! You’re as stubborn as a mule."
ReplyDeleteCan I remind you that the book was published in 2011 and the demand from Greenstein which centred on that passage was in 2007.
"As a result these few cause the Zionists to try and deligitimise the anti-Zionist/Palsol movement all the time."
LMAO Gert. Are you suggesting if Atzmon and Eisen died today the Zionists would cease and desist?
I don't think I made any mistake in 2007, and I don't now think that Atzmon is a racist.
This means that Greenstein feels free to publicly and continually brand me an Anti-semite. Although he does offer me a way out:
"If you accept that your defence of Atzmon three years ago was a mistake then of course I am happy to retract the accusation."
https://lists.indymedia.org.uk/pipermail/moderation/2012-January/000384.html
Greenstein's demand that Indymedia UK turn itself into a kangaroo court so he could start saying "Indymedia UK agrees with me" because at that stage he'd failed to find a single organisation that would was out of order.
The very week after Indymedia failed to no-platform Atzmon, Greenstein started a libel action against him, and showed us just how obsessive and personal his campaign really is.
I have no interest in jumping through hoops to stop a vitriolic, poisonous, court-loving trot from smearing me.
Greenstein will not be able to claim that "even Free The Peeps (Roy Bard) agrees that Atzmon is a racist" until such time as I believe Atzmon is. And I still don't.
But I do honestly believe that it is Greenstein who is obsessed with the Jewish 'race'. Not me. Nor Atzmon.
Yes the book was published this year and I was criticising him in 2007 and before. That just goes to show how consistent he has been and how persistent I have been!
ReplyDeleteNo of course if Atzmon and Eisen died today Zionism would continue. But they aren't going to die today or tomorrow which is why we have to minimise the damage they do to the PS movement.
You say 'I don't now think that Atzmon is a racist.' Every time he sends me an e-mail it's about 'Jewish ugliness' 'clandestine operations' Jewish ethnic this or that. You notice how, when I pinned Eisen down and asked him what he meant by 'ethnic' he bolted and took fright!
I can't see why you object to being termed an anti-Semite. You defend one and continually proclaim he isn't one. That to my mind is pretty convincing. But I said I differentiated between the personal and the political.
I didn't ask for any 'kangaroo courts' merely that an alternative and presumably radical news outlet not carry racist material. I would have thought it was a no brainer. Clearly not in ftp's case.
I began a libel action because I had been defamed but the matter has been stayed, nothing more.
I have no interest in peeps jumping about any more than he has been doing, be it through hoops or from one absurd position to another.
True I won't be able to claim that Free The Peeps (Roy Bard) agrees that Atzmon is a racist. I can live with the disappointment but in time ftp might find it hard!
There is no Jewish race to be obsessed with
Peeps:
ReplyDelete”Are you suggesting if Atzmon and Eisen died today the Zionists would cease and desist?”
You appear incapable of basic logic, t’is thus no great surprise that you end up being confused and supporting a racist who seems indeed also to promote Holocaust denial, ooops - ‘revisionism’.
”I don't think I made any mistake in 2007, and I don't now think that Atzmon is a racist.”
In that case the date of publication of “TWW?” has no bearing on anything then, does it?
”Greenstein's demand that Indymedia UK turn itself into a kangaroo court so he could start saying "Indymedia UK agrees with me" because at that stage he'd failed to find a single organisation that would was out of order.”
Demanding that an independent, ‘alternative’ newsmedia not publish racist claptrap is a minimal demand. Kangaroo courts don’t come into it.
If you believe TG is ‘obsessed’ with the Jewish ‘race’ then you haven’t understood a thing. TG is pretty universalist, AFAIK…
But talking about obsessions, I stumbled onto your blog recently: 100 % dedicated to the 2007 - 2008 flame wars, eh? Even dragging people like Mark Elf into it and publishing their private emails? What’s a scumbag like you doing in a solidarity movement? Macramé too tasking for you?