tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post8332171525930287239..comments2024-03-28T04:26:49.354+00:00Comments on Tony Greenstein's Blog: The Guardian's CIF Censors Post Mentioning Israeli anti-Zionist Professor Moshe MachoverTony Greensteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-75057309599394220622013-04-10T00:30:53.893+01:002013-04-10T00:30:53.893+01:00I too have been subject to energetic moderation al...I too have been subject to energetic moderation almost every time I post something about Zionism.<br /><br />CIF seems keen to promote the concept of "humane,liberal,compassionate Zionism"<br /><br />Giles Fraser's recent contribution is typical:<br /><br />"I am a Zionist. Not an Israel right-or-wrong type of Zionist. Not a supporter of the settlement movement type of Zionist, and absolutely not a supporter of the shameful treatment of Palestinians type of Zionist."<br /><br />My take on this is simple: would Giles Fraser support a Palestinian Right of Return and would he support the necessary pressure on Israel to achieve that ? e.g. economic and cultural sanctions. I suspect the answer to both questions is "no". Why ? Because it would destroy Israel as a Jewish State.<br />But what logically follows from this is that had all the Palestinians remained in 1948 an exclusively Jewish Israel would have been impossible and so THEY HAD TO GO.<br />So any kind of Zionist (even Giles Fraser) is morally responsible for the Palestinian Refugee Camps.<br />That is the truth that the Guardian wants to suppress.<br />The Guardian is very important to World Zionism because it presents a friendly face of Zionism, Zionism that agonizes over the plight of the Palestinians and wants a just solution.<br />In the meantime, as we know, the "nasty Zionists" create more and more facts on the ground and the "liberals" (Jonathan Freedland,Linda Grant etc) strongly oppose any meaningful pressure on Israel. David119http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/user-comments/david119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-82523890926198805282012-08-18T12:26:45.280+01:002012-08-18T12:26:45.280+01:00Hi Joe
no I haven't but I have other ideas. ...Hi Joe<br /><br />no I haven't but I have other ideas. Will post on this over weekend. Been up to my eyes....Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-42167412500300747292012-08-18T10:14:13.086+01:002012-08-18T10:14:13.086+01:00Tony, have you written to the Guardian about their...Tony, have you written to the Guardian about their hiring of Trevino? I have, but only got auto replies. Incredible -- The Guardian employing a man that openly calls for the murder of civilians. What next? Perhaps the Guardian could give Nick Griffin a job -- but even Nick Griffin never openly called for the killing of those he disagreed with.Joenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-6660287361368809822012-08-17T11:00:29.471+01:002012-08-17T11:00:29.471+01:00Tony ( and anyone else wishing to contact the Guar...Tony ( and anyone else wishing to contact the Guardian ) , the lady who announced his appointment is <br />janine.gibson@guardian.co.uk , and if you just get an auto response there, her assistant is kylie.lacey@guardiannews.comJoenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-57203041228289696332012-08-17T10:14:04.925+01:002012-08-17T10:14:04.925+01:00thanks Joe. Oh yes, I've seen it and when I g...thanks Joe. Oh yes, I've seen it and when I get a spare moment I intend to cross post it and add a few comments of my own. Game set and match really. These people are what they used to call people like Hubert Humphrey and those who took the US to war in Vietnam 'police state democrats'. <br /><br />It would appear that the Guardian is inviting into its bosom some very unsavoury people. I'm away all today on a Centre outing but tonite I hope to pen something!<br /><br />And for everyone's benefit, Electronic Intifada is the best Palestinian blog by far and is thoroughly anti-racist and anti-imperialist.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-3999607986347422402012-08-17T07:38:12.389+01:002012-08-17T07:38:12.389+01:00Tony, have you seen the latest Gaurdian journo?
...Tony, have you seen the latest Gaurdian journo? <br /><br />http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/new-guardian-team-member-openly-incited-israel-murder-alice-walker-and-others<br /><br />BTW, your recent post on Human Rights Groups' ulterior motives is outstanding. Great article you wrote.Joenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-7327989622930778002012-08-15T17:01:24.105+01:002012-08-15T17:01:24.105+01:00In my follow-up response to a further email from t...In my follow-up response to a further email from the editor, I added, "So, shocking as the allegation is, but well justified as it might be, would the Guardian consider commissioning a piece about it? Perhaps with a parallel piece by, say, Uri Avnery of Gush Shalom? You might — just — be able to stop yet another war. That’s the point in all this." (I understand that Avnery does not think Israel will attack Iran.)<br /> <br />The editor then replied, copied to Moshé himself. "I would like Moshe Machover to write for us, and would be delighted to discuss ideas he has - Moshe, could you get in touch if you are interested?"<br /> <br />It would probably be wrong of me to try to speak for Moshé, and so I wont, beyond saying that he replied to the Guardian that he was interested. However he was, characteristically, very honest with them. He advised the editors to read the evidence cited (eg from the Jerusalem Post articles), and especially Martin van Creveld's article in the Sunday Telegraph of 28 April 2002.<br /><br />Brian Robinsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-69517747251390884242012-08-15T17:00:27.778+01:002012-08-15T17:00:27.778+01:00I have had an interesting email discussion with th...I have had an interesting email discussion with the CiF editor. "A reader" had reported my post as "hate speech", saying it was "profoundly anti-semitic". The moderator who dealt with the abuse report "was unaware of Moshé Machover's reputation. Had he been aware of it I doubt he would have deleted the comment."<br /> <br />The moderator concerned "was worried by the lengthy but selective quoting from a piece that he didn't have time to fully engage with. He couldn't be sure that it was a fair representation of the piece itself. The argument as expressed in the comment posted was so truncated that it was difficult to gauge what the main thrust of it was. The moderator was concerned by the repetitive use of 'Zionist' and 'Zionism' which moderators know from experience is often used as an anti-semitic proxy for 'Jewish', although they fully understand that it can be used in a way that is completely legitimate. After some deliberation, the moderator concerned decided that the abuse report was warranted."<br /> <br />The CiF editor noted that I have made 71 comments and have not been moderated before. She makes it clear that moderators work independently from editorial staff, that procedure being "one way in which we try to keep moderation as value-free as possible. It is their job to apply the community standards criteria even-handedly. In practice, this can be difficult."<br /> <br />There is no "darker motive", moderators "are not experts in any one subject." They have to read "literally thousands" of comments every day on all sorts of topics and "have to make very difficult decisions very quickly."<br /> <br />In my reply to the editor, I repeated what I had written in an earlier email to her (copied to the Readers' Editor, who however does not deal with CiF commenters' posts). Here is a summary:<br /> <br /> <br />"[B]ut this leaps out at me: ‘A reader reported Brian's post as hate speech, saying that it was "profoundly anti-semitic".’ I could spend a good hour and several pages debunking this, but neither you nor I have the time to waste, and I’m sure you know the arguments as well as, probably better than, I do.<br /> <br />But to get back to what I thought was the main issue here. I would really love to see a debate on this issue in the Guardian. <br /> <br />[As I wrote to you previously] I appreciate that the allegation [in the Machover article and HOPI video] is both shocking and extremely serious, namely, that a modern nation state is planning, cynically, to launch a war that is not one of national survival and which could well set the entire middle east aflame, in order to carry out a longterm plan for the ethnic cleansing of several million people.”<br /> <br />But the allegation has been made and is in the public domain, along with a fair amount of evidence to back it up, and at the very least should be discussed, even if in the end to be rebutted (although as I also said, having read the articles, seen the HOPI video and familiarised myself with the evidence, I believe that Machover’s case is at the very least highly plausible").<br /> <br />The stakes could hardly be higher. We are discussing the prospect of yet another disastrous war in the middle east, and hopefully we’re also discussing how some of us might do our best to try to prevent it.<br /> <br />(I had previously told the editor that I had rather hoped that if the comment underneath the original article had been permitted to open out in free debate, with fuller quotations from the evidence, the Guardian might have considered commissioning Prof Machover to write a full length article himself on the subject.)<br />Brian Robinsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-77807044953374142262012-08-13T14:43:05.134+01:002012-08-13T14:43:05.134+01:00All very sad but true. The downhill slide of The G...All very sad but true. The downhill slide of The Guardian where comment became most decidedly not free, began quite a few years ago and has gotten worse over time. As a journalist I have absolutely no doubt that the instructions to 'censor' come from the top and given how trivial are some censored comments, the moderators must live in deep fear indeed. The Guardian has sold its soul and betrayed whatever integrity it might have had. Roslyn Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700960108357035957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-12163814981211465712012-08-13T13:21:57.050+01:002012-08-13T13:21:57.050+01:00"I have no friends at Engage, Mark"
Apo..."I have no friends at Engage, Mark"<br /><br />Apologies, Brian, I was wrong. I didn't realise you'd had another one of your turns.<br /><br />Let us know how you get on with the mods at Cif.<br /><br />Cheerslevi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-32403579739196613582012-08-12T11:16:18.982+01:002012-08-12T11:16:18.982+01:00I have no friends at Engage, Mark. I'm sure T...I have no friends at Engage, Mark. I'm sure Tony is right in seeing this act of censorship as directed at Moshé Machover, but I do think that it *might* have something to do with the actual content of the words I quoted, and that could have been the case regardless of who had first written them.<br /><br />After all, the allegation (backed up, as I said, by a considerable amount of evidence) is shocking and extremely serious, namely that a modern nation state is planning, cynically, to launch a war that is not one of national survival and which could well set the entire middle east aflame, in order to carry out a longterm plan for the ethnic cleansing of several million people.<br /><br />To be as kind as possible to the Guardian, they might have feared the implications of spreading such an idea. In other words, it might not simply be a fear of upsetting the Zionist lobby, or a result of lobbyists phoning the Guardian, or anti-socialist, anti-Weekly Worker, anti-Machover animus.<br /><br />But certainly the Guardian should have allowed a free discussion of the issue. To be honest, in my naivety, I thought the G would take the opportunity (had they allowed the debate to open out) of commissioning Moshé to write an article for them on the matter. I now know how wrong I was.<br /><br />Having read the original article, watched the HOPI video, and heard Moshé in person deliver a lecture on it, I am convinced that he is right.<br /><br />Those of us campaigning against any war on Iran may want to consider adding this argument, with the evidence backing it, as part of our case.<br /><br />-- Brian RobinsonBrian Robinsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-44402312992411856892012-08-12T02:16:27.318+01:002012-08-12T02:16:27.318+01:00I'm fairly certain that your friends at Engage...I'm fairly certain that your friends at Engage do a bit of monitoring and flagging at Cif. I think they sometimes flag and the mods simply can't be bothered to figure out what the issue is. They find it easier to do what they're told.<br /><br />The pro-zionist tilt at Cif has been going on for a long time. <a rel="nofollow">My run in with the then Cif editor, Georgina Henry</a> for my comments being deleted was over 5 years ago.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-3660890859720984782012-08-11T21:29:40.386+01:002012-08-11T21:29:40.386+01:00Tony, here's the link to the HOPI videos with ...Tony, here's the link to the HOPI videos with Moshé's talk on the matter.<br />http://hopoi.org/?p=2082Brian Robinsonnoreply@blogger.com