tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post7444572965529164901..comments2024-03-28T04:26:49.354+00:00Comments on Tony Greenstein's Blog: Rossman-Benjamin - the Face of a Police State AcademicTony Greensteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-49208781342110581252012-03-01T11:00:21.919+00:002012-03-01T11:00:21.919+00:00just one point in reply to '..red said' (t...just one point in reply to '..red said' (this is getting confusing!)<br /><br />That fragment of a quote is not from me, but from Tony.<br /><br />So it would be more correct to say 'Tony said'.<br /><br />No disrespect to Tony though :)redscribehttp://redscribblings.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-51405797465121663312012-02-29T21:37:08.751+00:002012-02-29T21:37:08.751+00:00"I don't accept that Gilad Atzmon is amon..."I don't accept that Gilad Atzmon is among the most ardent Jewish opponents of Zionism you will find anywhere? Firstly because Atzmon doesn't define himself as Jewish but as ex-Jewish,"<br />red you don't get the point.<br />Greenstein wants to be the most ardent Jewish opponents of Zionism, that's his problem with Atzmon, that stole this position from Greenstein..... and Greesntein can't stand it..... everyone knows this issue for a long time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-67430256259995996542012-02-29T09:36:32.565+00:002012-02-29T09:36:32.565+00:00"I don't accept that Gilad Atzmon is amon..."I don't accept that Gilad Atzmon is among the most ardent Jewish opponents of Zionism you will find anywhere? because Atzmon doesn't define himself as Jewish but as ex-Jewish"<br /><br />You must be joking.....what a low argument..... since when is being jewish an issue of definition.....<br />If I am not jewish and define myself as jewish..... so...... am I jewish.<br />For you your being jewish is a practical thing as everything else.<br />once it fits your Agenda ( As your kids are jewish...) you are.... once its problematic, you as always go to the lowest side.rednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-24098729636571406142012-02-29T09:32:24.644+00:002012-02-29T09:32:24.644+00:00"The distinction isn't between describing...<i>"The distinction isn't between describing and mimicing but 'invoking' which means summoning them as some kind of explanation"</i><br /><br />The problem is that many would argue that mentioning them at all implicitly means 'invoking' them as part of an argument. I have not seen the original quote from yourself; it is only referred to second hand in the letter above.<br /><br />But Atzmon was not literally saying that the Protocols were true. At least that is not how I read that quote. He said that the behaviour of some Jewish organisations in the US rendered it 'irrelevant' whether they were true or not. Because in his view they behaved like that anyway. In other words, they <br />'mimicked' the behaviour described in the protocols.<br /><br />As I said, I think mentioning them in this context is unwise because it is open to precisely this kind of misunderstanding and/or unscrupulous attack.<br /><br />Its true that he does not describe himself as Jewish. But he means in a political sense, as I understand it, he is not talking about his ethnic origin which he cannot change (nor can anyone else).<br /><br /><i>"He opposes what Zionists do but doesn't reject Zionism which he considers not to exist."</i><br /><br />This is a subtle point though. From the point of view of someone born and raised in Israel, Zionism may seem to be largely irrelevant, in the sense of 'exile', 'homecoming', and all that. Compared to the reality of being among the oppressors living on someone else's land. He seems to be saying that the whole idelogical paraphenalia of Zionism, which means a lot to some in the diaspora, means little to Israelis. That is not the same thing as considering that Zionism 'does not exist'.redscribehttp://redscribblings.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-28078114505309772922012-02-28T19:17:09.019+00:002012-02-28T19:17:09.019+00:00I certainly agree that it is better to avoid such ...I certainly agree that it is better to avoid such analogies, however Zionism and Zionists have always taken anti-Semitic attacks on Jews as their starting point, unsurprisingly. They do indeed parody the Protocols and one example might be the way the Gaza Boat this year was stymied by the Greek government anxious for help on securing loans.<br /><br />The Israeli state acts in the most conspiratorial of ways, whether its targeting people for assasination abroad, kidnapping them (Vanunu) etc. The problem is they claim to act on behalf of all Jews when they do so. <br /><br />The distinction isn't between describing and mimicing but 'invoking' which means summoning them as some kind of explanation. I don't recall ever having done so. Hence why Redscribe finds it difficult to discern the difference.<br /><br />Atzmon didn't make some rather similar remarks a while ago and was attacked in a rather similar way. What Atzmon said was entirely different, which is why I don't take Redscribe's sloppy analysis seriously. Atzmon said it didn't matter if they were a forgery, since they are true. A rather different thing (& Hitler said the truth of what they said, referring to the Frankfurther Zeitung paper, proved they were true).<br /><br />I don't accept that Gilad Atzmon is among the most ardent Jewish opponents of Zionism you will find anywhere? Firstly because Atzmon doesn't define himself as Jewish but as ex-Jewish, and secondly because he isn't an opponent of Zionism. He opposes what Zionists do but doesn't reject Zionism which he considers not to exist.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-15587673064785049672012-02-28T13:55:17.459+00:002012-02-28T13:55:17.459+00:00"It is a lie that I have ‘invoked’ the Protoc...<i>"It is a lie that I have ‘invoked’ the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to describe the behavior of American supporters of Israel. What I have said is that their conspiratorial methods of operating mimic the caricature of Jews in that notorious forgery."</i><br /><br />Interesting accusation from the Zionist and Tony's response. The distinction between 'describing' their behaviour as being like that in the Protocols, and saying that they 'mimic' the Protocols, is so fine that I can't quite see what it is.<br /><br />Personally, I would steer clear of such analogies as they are too easily misunderstood and misrepresented. Gilad Atzmon made some rather similar remarks a while ago and was attacked in a rather similar way. <br /><br />Isn't it a bit peculiar to see Gilad Atzmon and Tony Greenstein denounce each other as Zionists when in both cases they are among the most ardent Jewish opponents of Zionism you will find anywhere?<br /><br />Anyway, for an attempt at an updated Marxist analysis of the Jewish question, see <a href="http://redscribblings.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/the-jewish-question-and-racial-oppression-today/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.redscribehttp://redscribblings.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-31956388813634865422012-02-26T15:28:41.913+00:002012-02-26T15:28:41.913+00:00But my dear Gilad you don't flirt with Zionist...But my dear Gilad you don't flirt with Zionists. You are one. But do tell us about your friend in MossadTony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-58738332212523869512012-02-26T13:00:20.081+00:002012-02-26T13:00:20.081+00:00Tonyle
This is what happens when you flirt with t...Tonyle <br />This is what happens when you flirt with the Zionists . <br />Neither milk or meat . Just parevAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-9782020744403836432012-02-25T14:51:38.989+00:002012-02-25T14:51:38.989+00:00To be fair, those who MUST support a set of belief...To be fair, those who MUST support a set of beliefs for personal, social and academic survival resort to such high levels of denial and delusion that they become incapable of rational response. This is because to respond rationally they must first be prepared to read and comprehend what you have written and even if they do, or can, to respond rationally and reasonably to what you have written they must admit to themselves first, that you have something to which they can respond.<br />A closed mind which believes it must remain closed to survive can never be opened by reason. Sadly, such 'openings' tend to be forced upon them in traumatic and unexpected ways. <br />And this sadly is likely to be the future for the academic and for the Israeli State.Roslyn Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700960108357035957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-69314359017479473122012-02-25T02:07:58.588+00:002012-02-25T02:07:58.588+00:00I think you definitely won this argument, but she ...I think you definitely won this argument, but she didn't even take the time to thoughtfully reply to your letter. <br /><br />Sounds to me like she got some negative (and false) descriptions of what you're about and simply wrote you back with those accusations.<br /><br />It seems like the only response was to make those accusations, rather than addressing your points.Lee Kramer https://www.blogger.com/profile/12725366402959404334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-80838201801502069422012-02-23T21:07:18.723+00:002012-02-23T21:07:18.723+00:00Mizz Ross-Benjamin's response doesn't exce...Mizz Ross-Benjamin's response doesn't exceed the kind of rebuttal you'd get from gutter sites like Elder of Zyon or Richard Millett. I believe even Mad Mel would do better than this.<br /> <br /> Americans complain a lot about the standards in much of their educational system. With Ross-Benjamins part of US academia that's hardly a surprise.<br /> <br /> Truly abject abuse of the term 'antisemitism' but then that seems to be all they've got left nowadays.Gertnoreply@blogger.com