tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post6816830358323750718..comments2024-03-28T04:26:49.354+00:00Comments on Tony Greenstein's Blog: When is an anti-semitic attack not anti-semitic? When it’s a Zionist who is being anti-JewishTony Greensteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-74405006365330018482010-03-24T14:39:23.851+00:002010-03-24T14:39:23.851+00:00As far as I'm aware there is no evidence that ...As far as I'm aware there is no evidence that CST has ever been involved in any form of anti-racist activity, including defence of Jews from fascist attack (although that is very rare these days it has to be said).<br /><br />Could you really imagine those whose main task is to support the Israeli state being involved in e.g. campaigns over asylum seekers or police racism etc? <br /><br />No the reality is that whatever CST's real agenda, it is not anti-racismTony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-14752695395236115552010-03-24T00:35:58.040+00:002010-03-24T00:35:58.040+00:00My question about data on CST actually defending ...My question about data on CST actually defending Jews against genuine racist attack was not rhetorical, actually! Is there any evidence of this?NaomiWInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-56243254291239348022010-03-23T03:55:27.177+00:002010-03-23T03:55:27.177+00:00Here's some more correspondence from Mark Gard...Here's some more correspondence from Mark Gardner, this time with Sue Blackwell, subsequent to him haranging her on the phone. He was trying to get her to change BRICUP's news release, claiming that Naomi's account was not true! Scores of people apparently witnessed that she was NOT physically ejected- I guess he means, scores of people may be willing to lie for him.<br /><br />Notice how he naively admits that he's worried about damage to the reputation to the CST.....Like we care...<br /><br />So, the JC article went ahead with Naomi's statement of what happened and the CST saying it wasn't true....<br /><br />Debbie<br /><br /><br />Dear Mr. Gardner,<br /><br />Further to your complaint about the BRICUP press release dated 15th February, we have now obtained written statements from both the<br />individuals who were ejected by the CST from the Zionist Federation meeting at the Institute of Education on 9th February.<br /><br />Both of these statements support the account given in the BRICUP press release in all important respects, and are substantially at variance<br />with your own version of events as expressed in your e-mail to Sue Blackwell of 15th February (copy below). Both of the individuals concerned have stated that they endorse the wording of the press release.<br /><br />Therefore, we regret to inform you that BRICUP will not be retracting any part of the press release which was circulated.<br /><br />Yours sincerely,<br /><br />Dr. Sue Blackwell<br />Prof. Jonathan Rosenhead<br />on behalf of the British Committee for the Universities of Palestine<br /><br /><br />For the urgent attention of Dr Sue Blackwell and Professor Jonathan Rosenhead:<br /><br />Further to my conversation at approximately 1715hrs today with Dr Sue Blackwell, I wish to place on record CST's request that you immediately correct the mistakes concerning CST that are contained in BRICUP's press release of 15th February 2010.<br /><br /><br /> The press release states that one person was "carried out bodily by members of the Community Security Trust (CST)". This is incorrect, the person was escorted from the room, with both arms touched by CST personnel. No force was used. Nobody was "carried out bodily".<br /><br /><br />The press release also states that "Ms. Wimborne-Idrissi…too was physically dragged out of the meeting: "I was frog-marched up the stairs", she said afterwards." This is incorrect, she was escorted from the room in the same manner as the other person. No force was used. Nobody was "dragged". Furthermore, Ms. Wimborne-Idrissi was only taken outside the room. She was not taken up any stairs by CST, not by "frog-marching" nor by any other manner.<br /><br />All of the above was witnessed by scores of people.<br /><br />The claims in your press release are inaccurate and potentially damaging to the reputation of CST. We therefore request an immediate coorrection to your press release.<br /><br />Sincerely, Mark Gardner, <br />Director of Communications, CSTDeborah Finkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05479916311984549156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-18796241460066787862010-03-23T03:40:27.598+00:002010-03-23T03:40:27.598+00:00Free CiF made a point that had occured to me -that...Free CiF made a point that had occured to me -that an attack on an anti-Zionist by a Zionist is not anti-Semitic, yet the heckling of Hoffman was anti-Semitic, even though there were probably Jews doing it.<br /><br />Brian's experience is interesting. The CST have usually turned away when I've tried to take photos of them, and yet, they like to take photos of us. In 2003 when I was leafleting outside the Wigmore Hall, they tried to move me because they thought my JfJfP leaflets about a forthcoming demo against the wall, might offend people. I did eventually move further down but that wasn't good enough for them, and one of them rang his mate, who then came along and took a photo of me. <br /><br />This report is elsewhere on Tony's blog and is another example of how they act as if they are the police and throw their weight about in public places and buildings which don't belong to them. It's also another example of censorship. How can Gardner claim that they have no political bias when they tried to stop me leafleting as they did not like the lealfets? They only did this once they had read the leaflets.Deborah Finkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05479916311984549156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-55391820078542001142010-03-23T02:59:38.104+00:002010-03-23T02:59:38.104+00:00just picking up on Naomi's comments. I too am...just picking up on Naomi's comments. I too am pretty liberal on these things and am quite happy, indeed I've challenged Hoffman to debate. But he is more intent on disruption than elucidation so, given his support for the exclusion of opponents from his own meetings, I believe that yes we should exclude and remove Zionists who come to disrupt. Not if they are seeking merely to ask questions or engage in dialogue as Naomi did at the Bellamy meeting that never happened, but if their only purpose - as is clear from Hoffman's presence - is to disrupt.<br /><br />It is a sign of their own weakness that the CST and Gardener feel that blatant lying about their own role is their main defence.<br /><br />One of the reasons why I've written and compiled these articles is because it is necessary to sort the wheat from the chaff. CST performs certain key roles within the Zionist movement and it is essential that we concentrate on these and not get distracted by extraenous matters.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-21924363268182195902010-03-22T22:00:41.400+00:002010-03-22T22:00:41.400+00:00“(the) CST does not believe that arguments between...<i>“(the) CST does not believe that arguments between “Zionist” and “anti-Zionist” Jews constitute antisemitism as such.”</i><br /><br />The hypocrisy is really mind boggling. Hoffie et al go to great lengths to condemn nearly all criticism of Israel as 'antisemitic'. That makes you Tony, possibly the greatest 'self-loather' of them all.<br /><br />But an antisemitic comment like the one you complained about is dismissed as a bit of a tiff between Zios and anti-Zios!Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-79881426385358137352010-03-22T20:57:39.832+00:002010-03-22T20:57:39.832+00:00A very useful review Tony.
Given the resources CS...A very useful review Tony. <br />Given the resources CST devote to stewarding meetings - there were 10-12 thuggish types at the ZF event they threw me out of on Feb 9 - I wonder if they document the occasions on which they actually defend people who need defending against attack, rather than bully people who aren't a danger to anyone. It would be useful to know how many times real racists have tried to attack Jews and been seen off by CST - if any.<br />About Hoffman, apparently his behaviour was even more scandalous at the Halper meeting on Sunday than at the meeting Mike chaired on Saturday. I hear he started barracking the chairman Rabbi Danny Rich before Jeff even began speaking. Mike mentions our "sin of excessive tolerance". I'm inclined to believe we should retain the moral high ground and continue to allow Hoffman to show himself up, but the disruption is getting pretty intolerable, and so tedious.NaomiWInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-18506854661404728312010-03-22T18:06:39.977+00:002010-03-22T18:06:39.977+00:00There is another aspect about the syndrome whereby...There is another aspect about the syndrome whereby Israel and it's supporters lable anti-Israel statements as anti-Semitic.<br /> <br />By so doing they tell peoole that actions they believe to be legitimate (criticising a rogue state) top be anti-Semitic. For some peole this may disuade them from legitimate protest, more worrying is that some peole may see that if some of their action are anti_semitic this will legitimise anti-semitism in their eyes and lead them to be tolerant of truely ant-semitic acts, or engage in them themselves since the CST etc have blurred the distinction between what is, in their eyes, politically undesireable and what is a moral outrage. <br /> <br />By engaging in this action the CST betray the security of the Jewish communities and put all Jews, regardless of their attitude toisrael and Zionism at greater risk.<br /> <br />I am more at threat from the self-rightious posturings of Gardeenr and the CST tha tfrom some ill-informed Bengali youth who also cannot sufficiently distinguish between Jew, Israeli and Zioinst.<br /> <br />The labelling of things and ideas is central to any political project; the clarification and maintenance of distinctions is the centre of any political or social struggle.<br /> <br />MikeMike Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-50535400536149781992010-03-22T17:53:30.589+00:002010-03-22T17:53:30.589+00:00Thanks for all the kind comments. At 2 in the mor...Thanks for all the kind comments. At 2 in the morning, which was when it finally hit the web I was kinda feeling zombified so I'm glad it reads intelligibly.<br /><br />We are faced with a cynical thuggish Zionist organisation which will lie through its teeth, courtesy of Mark Gardener. It's little surprise that they get on so well with the Met!<br /><br />On Brian's point. No the CST have no powers over and above that of any other citizen and certainly have no power to insist on deletion of photographs from yours or any other camera. This is a good example of their use of intimidatory tactics and we should use this when the time comes.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-83668274284881376752010-03-22T11:35:35.211+00:002010-03-22T11:35:35.211+00:00What powers of enforcement does the CST have? Near...What powers of enforcement does the CST have? Nearly 4 years ago there was an Opinion Soup event organised by the Jewish Community Centre for London - it was a debate at the Everyman Cinema, Hampstead. I had brought my camera and took a few photos of the speakers on the stage.<br /><br />But as I had not been at the Everyman for many years, and certainly not since its glamorous redecoration, I wanted to take photos of the interior itself. I had taken several before the meeting, but wanted a couple of the plush new auditorium and standing by the back row took a few.<br /><br />After a minute or two, a guy from the CST came over to me and insisted that I show him the pictures (it was a digital camera). He was, he said, worried that I had included pictures of some of his colleagues. He found two such photos and required me to delete them.<br /><br />There seemed no really good reason to make an issue of it and so I complied, but I have often felt since that I should have refused (even if ensuing arguments had meant missing my train).<br /><br />But in any case it was stupid of the CST. If someone with malicious intent wished to get mugshots of the heavies, they wouldn't stand there openly using a bulky camera, would they? What would CST-man have done had it not been digital? But what could he have done had I refused to comply?<br /><br />I had already had the impression earlier in the evening that these fellows were quite enjoying their little bit of arbitrary power, dressed in their little brief authority, as WS might have said, strutting and fretting their hour and so on.<br /><br />What you describe, Tony, is ridiculous and even funny, but it's also preposterous and dangerous.Brian Robinsonhttp://musicweaver.users.btopenworld.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-30432595612861372002010-03-22T11:35:35.212+00:002010-03-22T11:35:35.212+00:00Much of this is sad but predictable. What is surpr...Much of this is sad but predictable. What is surprising is Gardener's statement:<br /><br />“(the) CST does not believe that arguments between “Zionist” and “anti-Zionist” Jews constitute antisemitism as such.” <br /><br />Most Jewish anti-Zionists have considerable experience of being called anti-Semites by Zionists. <br /><br />What is intriguing about the SOAS incident is that the 'comment' that elicited the complaint, a heckle of 'Jewish' was a deliberately (or inadvertently) misheard heckle of mine. I called out 'do you really want to know'. As these words were uttered by me (and as I am of Jewish origin) they could not be anti-Semitic on Gardener's criteria, regardless of content.<br /><br />I had the dubious of pleasure of trying to control Mr Hoffman from the chair when he was insufferably rude to Jeff Halper at SOAS on Saturday; Mr Hoffman tried to shout Halper down, despite being allowed to ask his question. This is common behaviour by Mr Hoffman and is sufficient explanation for the disapproval he received at the earlier meeting. <br /><br />Reader should note that anti-Zionists do not call on thugs to eject disruptive elements (unlike the Zionist Federation of which Hoffman is vice-chair) when they seek to ask questions: if we have a sin it is of excessive tolerance.freeCiFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07391527509537460351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-205209592500413992010-03-22T10:42:19.065+00:002010-03-22T10:42:19.065+00:00Very well written and documented. Well done for ex...Very well written and documented. Well done for exposing these lowlifes for what they are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com