tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post5298273843517361925..comments2024-03-28T04:26:49.354+00:00Comments on Tony Greenstein's Blog: All Out for PSC AGMTony Greensteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-59128631185680423282012-01-23T20:31:53.007+00:002012-01-23T20:31:53.007+00:00Sorry Anon, but you throw that many curveballs and...Sorry Anon, but you throw that many curveballs and straw men it would be a waste my time to try and fully rebut. Good luck with your thoroughly confused narrative.<br /><br />As all good Zionists do, you’re basically blaming the victim for the oppressor’s oppression.<br /><br />Perhaps one thing worth noting: I’m not opposed to the existence of Israel. But Eretz Israel??? You know what that term means?Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-78514960321298038902012-01-23T14:48:55.549+00:002012-01-23T14:48:55.549+00:00gert:
You said it:
"To believe that a progres...gert:<br />You said it:<br />"To believe that a progressive movement was emerging that would address Israel’s main problem [the Palestinian question"<br /><br />That's your basic mistake.<br />Jews has a right for a state in Eretz Israel, and while most of the world accepts that, the Majority of the Arab world fails to do so, in any borders.<br />The Palestinian questions nothing but a local issue. it's a regional one.<br /><br />While other states do far worse crimes than Israel, You might demand a stop, compensation, but not disassembling of the state. Even Germany was restored.<br />Denying that Israel's right to exist, while supporting other nation states, is a form of antisemitism.<br /><br />To blame the only Israel in the refugees problem, is historically wrong, and is based of robbing all other factors of their historical importance.<br /><br />The main problem, BTW, is not who started it, but who sustains it for so many years after it was caused, meaning, denying return, denying citizenship, denying representation, occupation by Jordan and Egypt, advocating for terror, denying compensation (which would involve compensating Jewish refugees from the Arab world, that numbered more than those deported in the Nakba), and like the Nakba itself, responsibility lies with all the factors, not Israel alone.<br />Is it really so hard to understand why is it so difficult to give Palestinians "justice", in terms that endanger your very existence ?<br /><br />Even if Israel ceased to exist, Palestinians wouldn't not be freed so soon, They'd still have to deal with internal Violence, and Arab/Persian imperialism.<br /><br />http://palestine-vs-israel.blogspot.com/2006/07/un-report-palestinian-internal.html for an example, before the violent takeover of Gaza by Hamas.<br /><br />"J14 was never about anything other than socio-economical factors internal to Israel. Questions about the occupation were scrupulously kept out of the protests and debate."<br /><br />That's a stupid claim as saying there is no connection between internal politics and external politics.<br /><br />The main factor of why violence is sustained in the the region, racism scores, hate thrives, is the the capitalist foudation of all policies, of peace and of war, but for You this is just an "Internal isuue". As internal as the Arab spring.<br /><br />You seem to think that the economic structure of the occupation is a minor issue, second to the nationalist aspect of it, and hence it stands alone, independent of the nature of the regimes in the Area.<br /><br />Well, reality is more complicated than what can or prefer to grasp. For instance: the withdrawal from Gaza that turned, violently, and not by Israel, to extreme reactionary fort, that imports guns and missiles, not hospitals.<br />Ask a UN worker what it's like to aid people under Hamas rule.<br /><br />"The victims a crime aren’t absolved from any wrong doing but you seem more than willing to attribute a very high share of blame to Zionism’s victims. I wonder why?"<br /><br />To balance the biased picture where only Jews can exploit the holocaust, get paid compensations, and justify their own crimes.<br /><br />as for the numbers of casualties, that is not a technical debate.<br />would more Jewish casualties fix the equation ?<br /><br />the IDF soldiers heart civilian population, but they doesn't use suicide bombers, or fire missiles from populated areas. To a large extent, the number of casualties derives from the low value of Palestinians lives, by Palestinians combatants.<br /><br />depicting Palestinians as helpless as, let say, Jews under Nazi rule, just doesn't fit the facts.<br /><br />The low number of Jewish casualties reflects Israeli defense policy, not low aspirations of terror groups.<br /><br />but what need of enemies Palestinians have, with friends like You ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-62048351577256644082012-01-22T16:22:19.897+00:002012-01-22T16:22:19.897+00:00In all 10 times more Gazans lost their life than I...<i>In all 10 times more Gazans lost their life than Israelis did.</i><br /><br />Ooopsie. That should have been:<br /><br /><i>In all a <b>100</b> times more Gazans lost their life than Israelis did.</i><br /><br />Hasbara may be taking its toll! ;-)Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-16148887587976916002012-01-22T15:43:23.798+00:002012-01-22T15:43:23.798+00:00ארז said...
”If You mention "near 1400 casu...ארז said...<br /><br /><br /><i>”If You mention "near 1400 casualties", it means You do not separate fighters from civilians.”</i><br /><br />By the IDF’s <b>own figures</b> about half of the casualties were non-combatants. In all 10 times more Gazans lost their life than Israelis did.<br /><br />From: IfAmericansKnew.org<br /><br /><i>“125 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,471 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.<br /><br />1,092 Israelis and at least 6,537 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.<br /><br />10,792 Israelis and 59,575 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000”</i><br /><br />Trying to explain (in general) the higher casualty numbers by Palestinian internecine killing alone, is like claiming Joan Peters’ ‘From Time Immemorial’ is a history book.<br /><br /><i>”It is not a secret that extremists aid each other by keeping the bodycount active.”</i><br /><br />And perhaps it’s not a secret that Israel does everything to underestimate the casualties it inflicts? Often denying any responsibility in the shrillest of tones?<br /><br />Your point about Arab treatment of Palestinian refugees, even if I accepted it at face value, is irrelevant but I’m glad it makes you feel better! The refugee problem was caused by Zionism and Zionism alone, try and remember that.<br /><br /><i>”If You maintain your superficial views of the world you'll get nowhere.”</i><br /><br />Zionists love nothing better than tell the world just how complicated the conflict really is and are experts at dragging everything and the kitchen sink into their arguments. It’s classic misdirection, really…<br /><br />If you want to go down that route <a href="http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html" rel="nofollow">here’s an excellent resource for you…</a><br /><br /><i>”BTW, GB did take vengeance from Germany. though not as cruel and hard as the Soviets took, but it had its share of horrors.”</i><br /><br />And this is relevant, how? Much of Zionism’s discourse seems to be “we’re bad but they’re worse!” Or ‘Bad shit happens, so why blame us?’<br /><br /><i>”Just like Arab spring was starting to create a change, and now it is overrun by reactionary forces, Israel was starting to shift during the summer with J14, and now, Jewish terrorists, racists and religious zealots change the public atmosphere.”</i><br /><br />J14 was never about anything other than socio-economical factors internal to Israel. Questions about the occupation were scrupulously kept out of the protests and debate. To believe that a progressive movement was emerging that would address Israel’s main problem [the Palestinian question] is very spurious. Most of Israel, including what’s left of the Left (they can’t even play cards together: no fourth man!), seems deeply resigned, committed perhaps, to the status quo. That’s a recipe for an unintentional one state solution, of course… Spare me your polls about how ‘Israelis want peace’: everyone wants peace but few seem willing to pay the price for it.<br /><br />The victims a crime aren’t absolved from any wrong doing but you seem more than willing to attribute a very high share of blame to Zionism’s victims. I wonder why?Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-48770034555531017742012-01-21T18:10:14.100+00:002012-01-21T18:10:14.100+00:00"Support for the Palestinians is an anti-raci..."Support for the Palestinians is an anti-racist struggle."<br /><br />No it isn't. It's a struggle for human decency and freedom.<br /><br />Trying to redefine it as a struggle against anti-semitism only helps the Jewish state.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-35519316731185750752012-01-21T00:14:11.776+00:002012-01-21T00:14:11.776+00:00Gert: are You kind of a TG sideshow clown ?
addre...Gert: are You kind of a TG sideshow clown ?<br /><br />addressing me words I did not say, and then asking whether I believe it is not a proper way to argue.<br /><br />If You mention "near 1400 casualties", it means You do not separate fighters from civilians. Just recall that while Cast led was going on, Hamas had time to butcher more than 60 Fatah members in Gaza, and about 24<br />Islamists later who challenged its authority, in one day. Fatah in the WB is not that cruel since Arafat died, but they murder or sometimes execute people who sell land to Jews.<br /><br />the overall number of Palestinian civil casualties from internal violence, is bigger than those by Israel.<br /><br />The terror gangs were surprised by the first intifada, but they found their bloody way to lead it, and were the leaders on the second one, much more violent including suicide bombs.<br /><br />It is not a secret that extremists aid each other by keeping the bodycount active.<br /><br />AS for refugees, only Israel and Jordan gave some of them citizenship. others exploit them, Quait deported them after the gulf war, some of them they volunteer to terror groups that served the interests of Iran, Iraq, Saudi's and others, but not their own. Their affair with terror, drove Hussein to butcher thousands of Palestinians, the exact figures of casualties would never be known.<br /><br />If You maintain your superficial views of the world you'll get nowhere.<br /><br />BTW, GB did take vengeance from Germany. though not as cruel and hard as the Soviets took, but it had its share of horrors.<br /><br />contrary to what You say, I don't blame the victim for it's situation, I believe in equality so I don't relieve victims from responsibility to their own faults. If You fail to understand my examples about Jewish culture, take it in simple English: IT GOES FOR EVERYONE, jEW, ARAB, hUTU,TOOTSY, SERB, BOSNIC ETC....<br /><br />Here is what my horrid Israelis do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ezvXo4VyoQ&feature=related<br /> <br />to end the cycle of victimhood and revenge it takes more than puff heads who debate about the proper way to define antisemitism of holocaust denial. It takes different socio-economical background and other political platforms than the current ones You fit so well into.<br /><br />Just like Arab spring was starting to create a change, and now it is overrun by reactionary forces, Israel was starting to shift during the summer with J14, and now, Jewish terrorists, racists and religious zealots change the public atmosphere. A classic "divide and rule".<br /><br />Your own stupid remarks serve the bad guys.ארזhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17944359016970598605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-75788820241869406822012-01-20T20:44:52.282+00:002012-01-20T20:44:52.282+00:00It is essential for Israeli Jews, with a few excep...It is essential for Israeli Jews, with a few exceptions, to do their best to identify with the victims of the Holocaust in order to justify their own role as oppressor.<br /><br />Occasionally it sinks through to some that the equation is the other way around, such as a doctor at Ansar 3, an open air prison for those in the Intifada, who was expected to report on those who had been subject to torture, beatings etc. so that the person wasn't killed. He said to the officer accompanying him 'Do you think I'm Dr Mengele?' But such examples of decency and reflection on the real meaning of Israeli oppression usually escapes Zionism's apologists.<br /><br />Though to be fair, many many more of the Israeli Right are in fact identifying with what the Nazis did, as the parallels are too strong.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-47879311348138003642012-01-20T20:13:49.479+00:002012-01-20T20:13:49.479+00:00Sorry, commenter with the Hebrew handle, but you m...Sorry, commenter with the Hebrew handle, but you make very little sense to me. Your allegation of TG whitewashing GB is so far off the mark, I’m taking you for a blind man or one with serious reading difficulties.<br /><br />Re. Holocaust denial in the Arab/Muslim world, TG has already wonderfully explained that, several times in fact. Look it up on this blog. <br /><br />Assume that you single-handedly beat all Holocaust denial out of the Palestinians: do you think that would make them more amenable to modern day Zionism and its indefatigable expansionism ???Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-51961263179701962772012-01-20T16:35:28.434+00:002012-01-20T16:35:28.434+00:00At the end of the day, Erez’ points are classic Zi...At the end of the day, Erez’ points are classic Zionist tropes, in which the victim is blamed for his own fate, not the oppressor, and the oppressor is absolved from wrongdoing on the basis of the victim’s hatred for the oppressor.<br /><br />Next he’ll be justifying colonisation of the WB as a ‘bulwark against antisemitism…’Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-34458325883311331642012-01-20T16:11:39.737+00:002012-01-20T16:11:39.737+00:00Congratulations Tony, you are Gilad Atzmon's s...Congratulations Tony, you are Gilad Atzmon's sayan of the week.<br /><br />Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.<br /><br />I thought "denying the holocaust" meant "denying the holocaust". <br /><br />Thanks for putting things straight.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-81765394771169041472012-01-20T16:10:51.004+00:002012-01-20T16:10:51.004+00:00Harry:
I suggest you look up 'CODOH holocaust...Harry:<br /><br />I suggest you look up 'CODOH holocaust': these guys effectively claim nothing happened!Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-85155852719246375152012-01-20T15:40:41.360+00:002012-01-20T15:40:41.360+00:00Erez:
Since as most of your points have been addr...Erez:<br /><br />Since as most of your points have been addressed by TG, I’ll just add the following points:<br /><br /><i>”It is common to charge Israel in the suffering of Palestinians, but the fact is much more of them are executed by commands of their own terror gangs than by the IDF.”</i><br /><br />You believe the near 1400 casualties inflicted by the IDF during Cast Lead were really the results of ‘executions by commands of their own terror gangs’?<br /><br /><i>”They are kept as refugees in the Arab world for more years than any other group around the planet […]”</i><br /><br />Do you believe that had a similar refugee crisis been caused in Europe, European ‘brethren countries’ would have absorbed these refugees w/o a peep? As always you’re applying double standards and look at the ‘Arab world’ as a faceless, monolithic bloc.<br /><br /><i>”Some people, apologetically point their victimhood as the source of these opinions, but it doesn't really matter, because such poison would remain much after the Palestinians will be freed and the outcome will be dangerous.”</i><br /><br />And you know this, how? When the British were attacked by Nazi Germany the former hated the latter with a vengeance and later that hatred dissipated completely. Why would ‘Arabs’ be any different? Because they’re not like the ‘Good Jews’ (because that’s what your little spiel is all about, is it not? “Righteous Zionists” v. “Scumbag Untermenschen”?Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-59390740922836286112012-01-20T13:29:18.719+00:002012-01-20T13:29:18.719+00:00Cooper's article is bloody awful. His thesis t...Cooper's article is bloody awful. His thesis that Jewish anti-Zionists may be daft, but since their primary motive in defending Palestinian rights is fighting anti-Semitism they're really OK - merely channels Atzmon. I'd rather the JC just went back to calling us "self-haters".Shmuelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-56237426091956488702012-01-20T11:30:48.367+00:002012-01-20T11:30:48.367+00:00Erez you write
"have more holes than cheese i...Erez you write<br />"have more holes than cheese in this story"<br />I don't see any cheese, only holes.<br />From all the mumble bumble, there is nothing in this article that makes any sense, there is no coherent or a direct message or explanation or any intelectual continuity, just a long collection of words.<br />Looks like the auther things that if he gathers many words, it gets any meaning.<br />I don't think Mr. Greenstein even understands himself.Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-71775945010701375142012-01-20T10:43:12.624+00:002012-01-20T10:43:12.624+00:00Tony, your ability to make whitewash yourself is a...Tony, your ability to make whitewash yourself is amazing.<br /><br />I also know quite a bunch of Palestinians who are not racist.<br />I happen to work with them as an educator.<br /><br />This, however, does make any of us blind to the fact that holocaust denial is the most common position in their society. They consider it as a conspiracy aimed at them, and not the most horrid crime in the 20th century.<br /><br />this position is more common than general racism, or general hate towards Jews, but according to your own definitions that makes them racists.<br /><br />it matters none, that misuse of the holocaust by Jews (not just Zionists) has an big influence about that. <br /><br />As an educator about the holocaust, I deal with all kinds: mystification, counter-racism, denial, justification and others.<br /><br />Any victimhood by oppression encourages counter-oppression. Its not a paradigm, but a common consequence. Jewish diasporal culture is packed to the full of racist concepts, though they tend to be more abstract than others.<br /><br />Between the lines of many racist Jews and Palestinians you can easily read their (sometimes) just anger and victimhood that drives them.<br /><br />Zionism intended to be the cure of that: a free and equal people among other peoples, planted on its own land, working for itself without exploiting others, should have been the basis for removing racist ideas from Jewish culture.<br /><br />That, painfully, did not happen,<br />and some Jews, like in Hebron, suggest that sovereignty is instrumental towards hisotorical revenge.<br /><br />Most Zionists, however, would rather diminish hate and violence, support Palestinian independence with adequate terms.<br /><br />You are quite ignorant in Muslim history if You think there is no social base for antisemitism in the middle east.<br /><br />"Yes imperialism backed both Zionism and Arab reaction", yeah ?<br /><br />those "imperialists" were elected by British democratic votes. Even today GB is in charge of much more human suffering than any country in the middle east, directly by its place in wars, but more by its place in the Capitalist system, yet You feel it is more moral there than in Israel..... morals of whitewashing.<br /><br />there is no honest historical comparison that shows more imperial support for Jews than for Arabs, and plainly - that would quite Utopian to expect more support for a tiny fraction of Jewish newcomers (however justful) than millions of Arabs. <br /><br />However, that failed, and American and Soviet support for Zionists enabled us to establish a small (and painful) fulfillment of our wishes.<br /><br />"The other stuff about the Palestinians suffering most from their fellow Arabs, even if it were true is irrelvant. The cause of their plight is the Nakba and what has come after."<br /><br />but how can You clean GB, The Palestinian leadership, and the other Arab nations from responsibility over the NAKBA?<br /><br />It seems You are driven by hate and not by common sense.<br /><br />You are wrong about the Arab spring. most Israelis would rather see a democratic Arab world, that Israel can take a constructive part in. It failed because of the social structure, and the social effects of the recent decades of dictatorship, not the desires of Netanyahu. No Zionist is happy about the ascent of Muslim extremists.<br /><br />You call yourself a socialist but your analysis of racism, Zionism and of Palestine shows no understanding at all of very simple terms like superstructure.<br /><br />You seem to accept the fact that some opponents of Zionism are antisemitic but You fail to see how your writing aids them.ארזhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17944359016970598605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-83698837502320570442012-01-20T04:53:36.914+00:002012-01-20T04:53:36.914+00:00Harry,
holocaust deniers come in many shapes and ...Harry,<br /><br />holocaust deniers come in many shapes and forms but in essence they deny that the Nazis had any plan or intention to commit genocide. It was all a consequence of war, which was much the Turkish 'explanation' for the massacre of the Armenians.<br /><br />They also deny the use of gas as a means of extermination but Irving was forced to concede in the libel action he brought against Penguin that poison gas was indeed used. He only denied its use at Auschwitz.<br /><br />The facts are clear and obvious and in fact it was German citizens who were first gassed. Possibly more than 100,000 Germans who were physically and mentally handicapped were murdered between 1939 and 1941. It was only when Bishop Galen of Munster spoke out that Hitler promised to s top the practice. It was a worthless promise, like most of those he gave.<br /><br />In fact the very same lorries used to murder German children (and they were mainly children) then trundled along the roads to Poland to do their work. In fact the second victims also weren't Jewish. Zyklon B was first tested out at Auschwitz on Soviet prisoners and gypsies. Only when they had perfected their techniques were the Jews subject to mass murder by gas.<br /><br />No one seriously disputes the above and that included Hoess who was hanged at Auschwitz and Eichmann, who had boasted before being captured, to a Dutch Nazi journalist Wilhelm Sassen, that his only regret was not to have killed more.<br /><br />Arguing with holocaust deniers is akin to arguing with those who believe the sun orbits the earth.<br /><br />Of course there are many debates over t he holocaust, not least how the Zionists behaved during it, i.e. obstructing rescue to anywhere but Palestine. All this has been obscurred by those who proudly proclaim as did one member of my PSC Branch, Frances Clarke-Lowes, that he was 'proud to be a holocaust denier.'<br /><br />And I would have exactly the same attitude to someone who denied the slave trade or the genocide of Africans in the Congo under Belgian control.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-58075869521435936812012-01-20T04:46:06.219+00:002012-01-20T04:46:06.219+00:00Hmm,
I'm not sure that pointing out my short...Hmm, <br /><br />I'm not sure that pointing out my shorthand for Shabtai Beit Zvi is such a good thing especially when you accuse me of doing so 'froydianically'. I assume it is Freud that you're referring to!<br /><br />The cause of the Palestinians is an anti-racist one even if not all of their supporters understand this fact at times. Just as Zionism is irredeemably racist but I accept that there are some Zionists, like Ze'ev Sternhall who are not personally racist. Or indeed Uri Avneri. But they are a small minority.<br /><br />More importantly Erez says that 'Palestinians at large seem to be antisemitic, holocaust deniers and racist to a large extent.' I disagree. Ask most Palestinians if they hate Jews and they will make a sharp distinction between Jews as individuals and Israel. The tragedy is that they have been given cause to be anti-Semitic because people came to their land, in the name of 'the Jews' and expelled and massacred them and today even people turn a blind eye to the most basic and savage denial of their rights. <br /><br />I refer not just to the bible bashers of Hebron but to kibbutzniks who only allowed membership to Jews having first settled the confiscated land of those same people. Of course by way of seeking an explanation some Palestinians have been seduced by holocaust denial. This again is a consequence of the misuse of the holocaust by Israelis and Zionists. The fact that 'nazi' is a regular Israeli insult helps that process along. It also cheapens it to accuse any and everyone, even a business partner one falls out with, of being anti-Semitic. I seriously doubt if one Palestinian activist in Britain has not been called anti-Semitic yet I've met very little anti-Semitism from supporters of the Palestinians and even less from Palestinians themselves.<br /><br />What Erez cannot face is the fact that the palestinians fought Zionism and Israel, not because they were anti-semitic but because Jews came to Palestine as colonists. Not only Jabotinsky but Dayan, Ben Gurion et al. in their more candid moments articulated this.<br /><br />Holocaust denial is a neo-nazi European phenomenon, as is anti-Semitism. It was Zionism and European settlers who introduced it, as per the Damascus Affair of 1840.<br /><br />So I disagree with your assertions as there is no social basis for anti-Semitism in the Middle East.<br /><br />No one incidentally was more happy to see the defeat of the Arab Spring than the Zionists. Netanyahu made that absolutely clear and the Americans of course have been just as worried. My views are well known. I wish to see liberation throughout the region including Israel.<br /><br />The other stuff about the Palestinians suffering most from their fellow Ar abs, even if it were true is irrelvant. The cause of their plight is the Nakba and what has come after.<br /><br />Yes imperialism backed both Zionism and Arab reaction but it always placed more faith in the former and for good reasons. Israel was a stable base, the Arab regimes as this last year has shown are much more fragile.<br /><br />I should think that Kaffash will be confined to the margins.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-34714626610180890772012-01-20T00:38:19.973+00:002012-01-20T00:38:19.973+00:00Your have more holes than cheese in this story.
F...Your have more holes than cheese in this story.<br /><br />First, froydianically, You name Shabtai Beit Tzvi, "Shabtai Tsvi" - the False Messiah, a person You probably admire very much.<br /><br />Then, You come out with all of this wishful thinking about PSC being non-racist. Well, it should be, and good luck in that, but there's low chance of that.<br /><br />Maybe in Britain it is held by a minority, but Palestinians at large seem to be antisemitic, holocaust deniers and racist to a large extent.<br /><br />Some people, apologetically point their victimhood as the source of these opinions, but it doesn't really matter, because such poison would remain much after the Palestinians will be freed and the outcome will be dangerous.<br /><br />Somehow You have fallen to the Fake postmodern notion that suffering more makes you side more just.<br /><br />since most Palestinians view Israel as their enemy, they fight it with whatever they can, including victim's-racism, holocaust denial, antisemitism.<br />These materials are widespread in the middle east and they are granted much support by the different regimes in the area. <br /><br />Unlike what you suggest, that this is all reactionary towards Zionism, it is more like European old Antisemitism - Jews and Israel as a scapegoat to shape public opinion and guide it away from inner problems. <br /><br />It was plain at the beginning of the Arab spring that antisemitism was a "non-issue" in the beginning, and as more reactionary groups ascend to power, it is brought back to the headlines.<br /><br />It is common to charge Israel in the suffering of Palestinians, but the fact is much more of them are executed by commands of their own terror gangs than by the IDF. They are kept as refugees in the Arab world for more years than any other group around the planet and they are constantly used, some of them willingly, for other agendas than their own, primarily those of Arab regimes and Iran.<br /><br />There is no way that a bunch of people in Europe could convince masses of Palestinians to divorce from antisemitism. It must be their own choice, and it is not very likely right now.<br /><br />The funny thing is, You always ignore the crucial part of your country in the Palestinian suffering. The imperialists supported Zionism, but much less than they supported Arab dictators, who cared nothing for Palestinians, occupied their territory and prevented them from independence or even citizenship.<br />those games of political incitement were the main reason of the conflict.<br /><br />in the formative years of the middle east today, Zionism was more on the side of progress, while imperial GB was the main reactionary force.<br /><br />Your raw and biased Marxism must focus on the the essence and not marginal issues.<br /><br />good luck with Kaffash,<br /><br />sincerely.Ereznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-45889293047567575562012-01-19T13:37:20.536+00:002012-01-19T13:37:20.536+00:00It might be helpful if you were to explain exactly...It might be helpful if you were to explain exactly what you mean by "Holocaust denial"? Since I know of no one claiming that none of it happened, what are you on about?Harry Cainehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18146494629194026397noreply@blogger.com