tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post8542903868680500151..comments2024-03-28T04:26:49.354+00:00Comments on Tony Greenstein's Blog: An Essay by a Young Jew as to Why he has Rejected ZionismTony Greensteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-36892205012047611262012-02-07T09:54:28.783+00:002012-02-07T09:54:28.783+00:00Thanks evildoer. Feel free to donate to the Kane M...Thanks evildoer. Feel free to donate to the Kane Mansions defence fund. Brown envelopes stuffed with readies are acceptable especially before the start of weekends. <br /><br />I'm looking forward to finding out who it is we are all libelling.<br /><br />It's a bit ironic the prickly ego of redscribe threatens people with libel, given they're always telling the rest of us off for our behaviour, and if only we would wrap up antisemites and holocaust deniers in pink fluffy cotton wool then everything would turn out lovely.<br /><br />Anyway, I've seen this letter from this young Jewish man in plenty of places. Big deal if Atzmon puts it on his website. Why shouldn't he given his racist fantasy-world obsession with Jews which he tries to pass off as some kind of form of solidarity with Palestinians.<br /><br />According to the redscribe holocaust denier apologist, because Atzmon publishes this letter it makes him a left-liberal, and maybe even a hugely original mind whose work we really need to get to the bottom of such is its profundity. <br /><br />And if evildoer makes just a reference on redscribe's indescribably boring blog to a half-decent honest review of Atzmon's book by a white supremicist that makes evildoer some kind of white supremicist.<br /><br />And if I make a few quotidian comments on a thread on Socialist Unity it makes me a marxist. Denying it means I share something in common with Atzmon.<br /><br />Good job then Atzmon doesn't give full attribution to Mein Kampf in his work otherwise redscribe would have to shut up and leave us all in peace forever. What a loss that would be.joe90 kanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15925893894108250518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-16781674833581999802012-02-06T11:24:40.053+00:002012-02-06T11:24:40.053+00:00...shit-stirring, crypto right-wing snake
Oh my o...<i>...shit-stirring, crypto right-wing snake</i><br /><br />Oh my oh my, Joe. I'm afraid that the famous leftist activist pretending to be a white ass internet troll is going to sue you now. In any case, if you need to set up a defense fund, I will chip in. Hard times are a coming.Evildoerhttp://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-42345355604145511342012-02-06T09:09:35.754+00:002012-02-06T09:09:35.754+00:00Joe Kane
"Just to say, I didn't wipe the...Joe Kane<br /><br />"Just to say, I didn't wipe the floor with anyone, never mind Andy Newman, who I have the greatest respect for."<br /><br />No, you wiped the floor with 'jellytot' - another anonymous internet person. And a Zionist.<br /><br />As for Marxism, I'll take your word for it if you disclaim it. That's something you and Atzmon have in common.<br /><br />A 'far-right racist' who expressed classic liberal illusions in Barack Obama and Amir Peretz, and who published Jesse Liberfield's letter as an of how people brought up as Zionists can embrace anti-racism. Without that publication, its quite like that this thread would never have been posted.<br /><br />That is evidence that contradicts Joe's view of Atzmon as a 'far-right racist'. And no matter how much he huffs and puffs it will still contradict it.<br /><br />In your verbal fireworks against me, you are just shooting at the messenger because you don't like the message. Why not deal with the evidence? If you were confident you were right, you would not need the fireworks, your message would be enough.<br /><br />Do I think Andy Newman is worse than Atzmon? Meaningless question, since both have different politics from me and both are right about some things and wrong about others. And both are part of the liberal left in different ways.redscribehttp://redscribblings.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-65341132990193074842012-02-05T16:36:28.332+00:002012-02-05T16:36:28.332+00:00I see in the comments section of the new windbag o...I see in the comments section of the new windbag on the block, redscribe's blog, that they have imported me into the imaginary internet world of their psuedo-politics. I'm a marxist apparently, which is news to me especially.<br /><br />Just to say, I didn't wipe the floor with anyone, never mind Andy Newman, who I have the greatest respect for. <br /><br />I see redscribe manages to claim I've caused some kind of controversy with people I don't even know or care about, and that Andy Newman is worse than Atzmon. All from a simple blog thread. Yet after all the voluminous evidence Atzmon is a racist redscribe is unable to come to that conclusion on their own and even describe this far-right racist as "left-liberal".<br /><br />It doesn't surprise me Andy Newman banned a poisonous, shit-stirring, crypto right-wing snake like you who goes around pimping their boring blog and apologising for Holocaust deniers and racists like Atzmon.joe90 kanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15925893894108250518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-57446622322514513402012-02-05T15:06:05.430+00:002012-02-05T15:06:05.430+00:00Yes, I am just as anonymous as someone whose name ...Yes, I am just as anonymous as someone whose name is 'evildoer'<br /><br />:-)redscrjbehttp://redscribblings.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-48528798601968395912012-02-05T12:59:04.371+00:002012-02-05T12:59:04.371+00:00Redscribe,
In fact, I made no reference to the c...Redscribe, <br /><br />In fact, I made no reference to the color of your skin. But your anonymity is of course part and parcel of your imaginary politics of being from nowhere, which is one way to define whiteness.Evildoerhttp://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-55847900616795356182012-02-05T11:35:17.317+00:002012-02-05T11:35:17.317+00:00A couple of additional points in response to Evild...A couple of additional points in response to Evildoer.<br /><br />I have too much respect for Muslims and Islam to ever consider presuming to speak in the name of the Ummah, even in jest. I'll leave that foolishness to others.<br /><br />But one key progressive aspect of Islam is that skin colour is irrelevant to Muslims - or at least to ones whose primary loyalty is to Islamic universalism. Read Malcolm X's autobiography if you want to see how powerful that is to people who have been on the receiving end of racism.<br /><br />Its deeply ironic that someone who falsely accused me of racism, and of 'plagiarising neo-Nazi publications', after being unable to substantiate that one iota when challenged to do so, then pretends to speak in the name of the Ummah and makes derogatory remarks about someone's (presumed) skin colour!<br /><br />If this is not racism, I don't know what is. It is also an insult to Muslims.<br /><br />Think before you type, it does help!redscribehttp://redscribblings.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-62120024910694761972012-02-05T03:00:03.675+00:002012-02-05T03:00:03.675+00:00Peeps
you say that 'At no point does he menti...Peeps<br /><br />you say that 'At no point does he mention zionism.' No people often don't but it is implicit in what he wrote re receiving disapproving stares and question as to whether Israel matters anymore. <br /><br />He also rejects Zionism and a religion that operates as the sanctifier of Zionism. <br /><br />But it is an interesting piece whatever we wish to see in it.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-32716074679879152842012-02-04T21:02:01.761+00:002012-02-04T21:02:01.761+00:00TG:" He describes instead how he has broken f...TG:" He describes instead how he has broken from Zionism within the Jewish community."<br /><br />That seems different to what Jesse says:<br /><br />"I once belonged to a wonderful religion. I belonged to a religion that allows those of us who believe in it to feel that we are the greatest people in the world—and feel sorry for ourselves at the same time,"<br /><br />"I thanked him and walked out shortly afterward. I never went back. I thought about what I could do. If nothing else, I could at least try to free myself from the burden of being saddled with a belief I could not hold with a clear conscience. I could not live the rest of my life as one of the pathetic moderates whom King had rightfully portrayed as the worst part of the problem. I did not intend to go on being one of the Self-Chosen People, identifying myself as part of a group to which I did not belong."<br /><br />At the very least it is the religion he is abandoning. At no point does he mention zionism.freethepeepsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-60717809425983838582012-02-04T12:26:43.865+00:002012-02-04T12:26:43.865+00:00But that is just silly sarcasm.
And by the way, h...But that is just silly sarcasm.<br /><br />And by the way, how do you know what colour my skin is?redscribehttp://redscribblings.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-70852791019234074542012-02-03T20:22:56.612+00:002012-02-03T20:22:56.612+00:00Redscribe,
I take the liberty to thank you perso...Redscribe, <br /><br />I take the liberty to thank you personally in the name of the Umma for allowing that some islamists "can play a progressive role in politics, at least to an extent." I am sure Muslims from Goa to Detroit are feeling relieved that, under some conditions, they can meet the standards set up by your whiteness. Likewise, it is great that you give us poor third category Jews the same leeway. <br /><br />Will you also offer us some remedial afternoon classes, so we can overcome our disability and be fully, unrestrictedly, progressive like you are?<br /><br />Do you pity us for having those burdensome identities to carry around? Do you say to yourself every night, "There, but for the grace of God, go I"?<br /><br />I am asking because knowing that you empathize really makes a difference!Evildoerhttp://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-50819339598088477012012-02-03T09:25:18.850+00:002012-02-03T09:25:18.850+00:00Evildoer
"You did neither because Atzmon is ...Evildoer<br /><br />"You did neither because Atzmon is your sock puppet. You don't have the courage to support his actual garbage, which is what you truly want, so you defend him on "procedural grounds". "<br /><br />Surely you must mean that I am his sock-puppet? Or do you think that he is some way a tool of my good self? Whatever, this logic makes no sense at all.<br /><br />If I agreed with Atzmon I would say so. In fact, where I do agree with him, I do say so! Where I disagree with him, I also say so! There is nothing strange about this procedure, it's the way normal people interact and discuss <b>any</b> question. There is something deeply illogical and subjective about evildoer's thinking here.<br /><br />"And no, I did not say that anyone who uses the term "Islamist" is a racist. I said the term itself belongs to a racist discourse about Islam. This should be obvious to any critical person reading newspapers. There are Muslims, and Muslims are engaged in politics, and when they do, often Islam is part of their political language, in various and often contradictory ways. Lumping together "Islamists" for all Muslims that refer to their faith in their politics is like putting Hugo Chavez and Tony Blair together under the rubric "Christianists." Or indeed like lumping together "third category Jews", your favorite crap shot. It's a categorization that only make sense from a position of white orientalism looking at Islam. "<br /><br />At least there are some ideas involved here. But what you say would only be true is someone held that all Islamists, or all 'third category Jews' to use Atzmon's term, were uniformly reactionary. I think some Islamists can play a progressive role in politics, at least to an extent. That is why, incidentally, I was supportive of the Respect coalition before its demise.<br /><br />I also think, unlike Atzmon, that some people who identify politically as Jewish can play a progressive role, likewise to an extent. Like Tony G, for instance, I may not agree with him on many things but I do not make the mistake that Atzmon makes, of demonising him. In case evildoer has not noticed, I have not once but several times argued against such characterisations as 'Anti-Zionist Zionists' for people like Tony, on my blog.<br /><br />I am not an Atzmonite, but I am not an Atzmon-hater either.<br /><br />Evildoer, please try and get your head around the simple idea that not everyone who disagrees with you is on the other side.<br /><br />Your method is rather like that of Bush when he proclaimed that 'You're either with us, or against us'.<br /><br />Things are more complex than that.redscribehttp://redscribblings.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-26205877907766076242012-02-03T00:26:20.209+00:002012-02-03T00:26:20.209+00:00Redscribe,
Had you actually read Tony's post...Redscribe, <br /><br />Had you actually read Tony's posts about atzmon, you would have known the evidence as he mentioned it and linked to it. <br /><br />Had you actually paid attention to Atzmon's writing, assuming you know what goes on the right wing nutring, you would have yourself identified the transparent plagiarism. <br /><br />You did neither because Atzmon is your sock puppet. You don't have the courage to support his actual garbage, which is what you truly want, so you defend him on "procedural grounds". <br /><br />And no, I did not say that anyone who uses the term "Islamist" is a racist. I said the term itself belongs to a racist discourse about Islam. This should be obvious to any critical person reading newspapers. There are Muslims, and Muslims are engaged in politics, and when they do, often Islam is part of their political language, in various and often contradictory ways. Lumping together "Islamists" for all Muslims that refer to their faith in their politics is like putting Hugo Chavez and Tony Blair together under the rubric "Christianists." Or indeed like lumping together "third category Jews", your favorite crap shot. It's a categorization that only make sense from a position of white orientalism looking at Islam. <br /><br />Some people use this kind of language because they are racists, and other people use it because they are ignorant, and others use it because mainstream racism is a seductive discourse, which is why it works so well, as you clearly show.Evildoerhttp://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-65553020256233152582012-02-02T13:32:05.950+00:002012-02-02T13:32:05.950+00:00Incidentally, if you read slightly upwards from th...Incidentally, if you read slightly upwards from the exchange between myself and evildoer just referred to, you would be a long argumentation by me <b>against</b> a political Islamist who argued ... that the Nazi genocide of the Jews never happened.<br /><br />I wonder if evildoer thinks that my arguments against holocaust denial here were plagiarised from some neo-Nazi website or other?<br /><br />Or is he talking about something else? Please enlighten me, because I am completely mystified by this claim.redscribehttp://redscribblings.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-85415982009560445072012-02-02T09:43:36.956+00:002012-02-02T09:43:36.956+00:00I would not expect a reasoned argument from evildo...I would not expect a reasoned argument from evildoer on this. He argued on my blog that anyone who uses the term 'political Islamist' must me a racist. When I pointed out that the well known website 'Islamophobia watch' regularly uses this term, he had no reply. See <a href="http://redscribblings.wordpress.com/2011/11/27/political-islam-jewish-identity-politics/#comment-117" rel="nofollow">this exchange</a>.<br /><br />As for my 'plagiarising neo-nazi publications', would evildoer like to substantiate that with a concrete example?<br /><br />Will respond to Tony's points when I get a bit more time.redscribehttp://redscribblings.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-3825661291010020902012-02-01T14:37:23.598+00:002012-02-01T14:37:23.598+00:00redscribe thinks that if Atzmon eats lunch around ...redscribe thinks that if Atzmon eats lunch around noon then he can't be all that different from Trotsky, who also ate lunch around noon.<br /><br />Wow! Not surprising that he is bedazzled with Atzmon's brilliance. They share the same lack of ability to tell reasoned arguments from horse manure and plagiarizing neo-nazi publications.Evildoerhttp://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-31706660739872666122012-02-01T13:15:23.708+00:002012-02-01T13:15:23.708+00:00Yes I've read the commentary but, you'll b...Yes I've read the commentary but, you'll be surprised to hear, I don't agree with it.<br /><br />Primarily I don't agree that Atzmon comes at things from an anti-racist perspective because he homes in on Jews as Jews, failing to see - as with young Jesse - that identity changes as circumstances and surroundings change.<br /><br />Or to put it another way, any group of people, given the right set of circumstances, can become racists/fascists etc. Of course there are some whose humanitarian instincts are such that they refuse to accept such abhorrent principles and often pay, as with the White Rose movement, with their lives.<br /><br />But that is the lesson of the Jewish people that Atzmon fails to understand. That Zionism proves that the Jews, who were subject to the utmost barbarities in Europe in the 1930's and 1940's are,nonetheless, also capable of barbarities towards another people when they are the colonists and settlers.<br /><br />Atzmon's analysis is entirely different. As in his Hunters of Goliath he sees what Israeli Jews doing as a continuum of what Jews in Europe were doing and that is why they met the fate they did. That is an entirely different analysis.<br /><br />Jews, because of the supremacist Judaic religion, became persecuted in Europe and went to Palestine where they've done much the same thing.<br /><br />I also think that Atzmon's politics are incredibly contradictory and I've shown on the Guide to his sayings (March 2011 on this blog) that he says different things to people all the time. So Jews are de facto, unless Orthodox, Zionists yet Jesse doesn't say he has abandoned describing himself as Jewish. He describes instead how he has broken from Zionism within the Jewish community.<br /><br />I don't want to second guess him and he may end up not considering himself Jewish. That's fine by me. There is nothing wonderful or magical about being Jewish or of Jewish origin, but to hold it as a black mark against someone is where racism begins!Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-31598629402149611402012-02-01T11:33:27.529+00:002012-02-01T11:33:27.529+00:00Commentary on this posting hereCommentary on this posting <a href="http://redscribblings.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/essay-jesse/" rel="nofollow">here</a>redscribehttp://redscribbling.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com