tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post8025666381151958758..comments2024-03-28T04:26:49.354+00:00Comments on Tony Greenstein's Blog: PSC AGM 2010 - Executive Libels Its CriticsTony Greensteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-51143344392823180872010-02-01T16:11:05.328+00:002010-02-01T16:11:05.328+00:00You may dare. Thanks...
steviebYou may dare. Thanks...<br /><br />steviebAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-46615929069722098672010-02-01T00:23:24.071+00:002010-02-01T00:23:24.071+00:00The majority of Zionists would indeed describe the...The majority of Zionists would indeed describe themselves as secular. However they justify a 'return' to Palestine by reference to the Bible so make what you can of that.<br /><br />No there is no biblical foundation for a 'return' to Palestine. In the Pesach service (seder) there is a phrase about 'next year in Jerusalem' but it was always a spiritual longing or as Bernard Lazarre wrote all it meant was that next year we will be free. (Piterberg 12)<br /><br />One can see that from the desperate attempts made by holocaust survivors in the displaced persons camps NOT to go to Palestine. Of 2.5 million who escaped the pogroms in the Russian Pale of Settlement between about 1870 and 1914, less than 2% went to Palestine. <br /><br />It really is a myth that Zionism fulfilled some biblical injunction. On the contrary even Herzl's own Chief Rabbi Maurice Gudemann took against him. It was Orthodox Jewry which was most opposed, alongside socialist and communist Jews.<br /><br />But of course religion changes. Just as Islam has become fundamentalist as a result of Western encouragement (we built up the House of Saud against its more liberal rivals) so the Jewish religious establishment has moved to the right and become overtly racist.<br /><br />It's not a question of blaming Judaism for Zionism but blaming Zionism for what it has done to the Jewish religion. <br /><br />Jewish identity and religion has changed rapidly in the past 60 years and Zionism is largely to blame, alongside the growing socio-economic rise of Jews.<br /><br />Dare I say it you need to read things like Nathan Weinstock's Zionism a False Messiah and Abram Leon's 'Jewish Question - A Marxist Interpretaton' which give a materialist understanding and analysis without which all seems at sea.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-23462928975927081802010-01-31T22:45:17.934+00:002010-01-31T22:45:17.934+00:00That there are secular Zionists, but the majority ...That there are secular Zionists, but the majority are not. Why you would be quite so sensitive about this is beyond me, but I suspect many Jews have problems establishing ways of dealing with changing values and views about Israel.<br /><br />But I don't want to destroy all Zionist or help them. And I don't think anything I wrote does that either.<br /><br />Tony I thought this idea(of 'return' was a part of some Judaic teachings or something or other - but these ideas - whether born of Christian or Jew - are part of religious dogma today. Are not these Jewish organizations(some of) sending children on paid trips to Israel -are they not religion based?<br /><br />I am not out to blame Judaism as a whole for Zionism - like any religion it has it's zealots and fanatics. But I don't think there has been the separation of Zionism and Judaism that I think there needs to be. I think that has to be a goal(for Jews). I personally don't believe that Zionism was a completely secular ideology - although it's got it's fanatical secular supporters too, those who feel Israel is the only answer to the Holocaust and the only 'safe place' for Jews to be. <br /><br />"Not only is Gordon Brown a Zionist but the first Zionists weren't Jewish anyway, they were Christians wanting to be shot of the Jews living among them. People like Napoleon I and III, Lord Shaftesbury, Palmerstone, George Elliot etc. This was a Protestant doctrine and that is where Gordon Brown is coming from"<br /><br />That's fair enough and I'd like to read more on that actually.<br /><br />Anyway, it's possible I'm missing something here, but I don't think JoeKane needs to quite so sensitive about this, really. I'm not Atzmon's best mate or anything - I've read some of work after reading other Jews calling him an antisemite. And that ideological conflict is interesting, even as I don't completely understand it. But I don't like him because just because I think he's an antisemite,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-56387059656636026282010-01-30T13:32:01.964+00:002010-01-30T13:32:01.964+00:00Someone seems to be extra-fascinated by definition...Someone seems to be extra-fascinated by definitions, word-soups and alphabet spaghetti.<br /><br /><br /><i>Gordon Brown is not a Zionist, he's a presbyterian who supports Zionism.</i><br />- Yes, and by the same illogic, Golda Meir was not a zionist, she was just a Jew who supported zionism.<br /><br /><br />Gordon Brown...<i>He can call himself a zionist, but he's not Jewish so how can he be a true Zionist?</i><br />- Golda Meir or Moshe Dayan can call themselves zionist, but by being secular and not religious, how can they call themselves true zionists? <br /><br /><br /><i>So, for me, Zionism is an illegitmate form of Judaism. It is a nationalist/militarist form of Judaism.</i><br />- Zionism is a secular racist-based ideology, and is not religious - some of its most famous supporters and exponents are not religious or even Jewish.<br /><br />In fact, it helps zionism a lot if you actually find Jews repulsive and wish to get rid of them - hence the reason Atzmon is a zionist. Same with know-nothing Mary Rizzo who inists on describing Israel as the 'Jewish state' which only zionists believe and describe as such.<br /><br /><br /><i>Well I don't think that, but I do think that it's important that solidarity movements are just that and not fragmented by infighting. With Zionists working overtime to infiltrate the peace movements it's even more important.</i><br />- If you are worried about supposed 'infiltration' then why are you posting anonymous comments on the internet, a tactic typical of zionists?<br /><br /><br />As for defining Israel as a fascists state - I don't think it is. Israel does have a form of democratic representation which no fascist state had ie either Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy.<br />Spain under Franco for instance, (which was really a conservative-authoritarian regime and not 'Falangist' as it is often described as) didn't have such a democratic system of representation as current-day Israel.<br /><br />The Biblical-based irridentist expansionist claims by zionism are merely used as an excuse for Israeli colonial-imperialism in much the same way as Manifest Destiny was used by US colonialism, or the British Empire used the idea of The White Man's Burden to justify its imperial-colonialism.<br /><br />Interwar Fascist-Nazi regimes did actually have some valid reasons and excuses for expansion, up to a point, due to the 'deformed peace' of the post-World War I Peace Settlements. <br /><br />Israel has no such excuses for its takeover of Mandate Palestine, in much in the same way as the US and British colonialism has no such excuses for their expanisonism - hence the reason Israel's colonial-imperialism is just a straightforward takeover starting from nothing from the start. Unlike true fascist-nazi regimes which already existed and had grievances which others did recognise as having some kind of justification, up to a point.<br /><br />Of course, with its continuous expansion since 1967, the Israel state does seem to be taking on some of the trappings of fascism, such as growing intolerance, but foreign military adventures abroad do tend to bring out the worst, in the society back in the homeland, as we can see here in the UK with the BNP and Islamophobia etc.<br /><br />I just read this recently and found it very informative with regards to the nature of the relationship between fascism-nazism and terriroy and expansion -<br /><a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=aristotle+a.+kallis&x=17&y=20" rel="nofollow">Fascist Ideology: Territory and Expansionism in Italy and Germany, 1922-1945</a> <br />Aristotle A. Kallis (2000)joe90 kanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15925893894108250518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-21563514100886250032010-01-30T01:10:03.990+00:002010-01-30T01:10:03.990+00:00Just a few points. Zionism is a political not a r...Just a few points. Zionism is a political not a religious ideal, though it has co-opted religion and used its symbolism and language.<br /><br />The idea that Jews should 'return' to somewhere they've never lived to establish a 'national home' was a racist idea which believed that Jews were strangers in the places they lived. It was effected through the agency of British colonialism and Israel is a settler colonial society.<br /><br />I doubt whether Israel could ever have been called a centre-left society. Its racism always marked it off as a racist and right-wing society, under Labour as well as Likud. Today with Netanyahu and Lieberman even the pretence that Israel is a 'normal' western society has been shot to pieces.<br /><br />Not only is Gordon Brown a Zionist but the first Zionists weren't Jewish anyway, they were Christians wanting to be shot of the Jews living among them. People like Napoleon I and III, Lord Shaftesbury, Palmerstone, George Elliot etc. This was a Protestant doctrine and that is where Gordon Brown is coming fromTony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-6619088598143395322010-01-29T17:39:08.850+00:002010-01-29T17:39:08.850+00:00joe90 kane,
"Scottish presbyterian Gordon B...joe90 kane,<br /><br /><br />"Scottish presbyterian Gordon Brown, Prime Minster of the UK, is a zionist. Presumably that makes his presbyterianism a legitimate form of, er, Judaism." <br /><br />Gordon Brown is not a Zionist, he's a presbyterian who supports Zionism.<br />He can call himself a zionist, but he's not Jewish so how can he be a true Zionist? <br /><br />Zionism is the 'return' of the Jewish people to their 'home' - which is a religious doctrine, really. But this is a biblical idea, not borne out by history or the fact that this land was inhabited for thousands of year by the 'other'. <br /><br />So, for me, Zionism is an illegitmate form of Judaism. It is a nationalist/militarist form of Judaism. I say illegitimate because in principle, and according to western values, we don't condone ethnic cleansing, genocide etc in order to fulfil religious dogma. And, imo, that's is what Zionism is.<br /><br />I was wrong in what I wrote because I didn't properly read Tony's article, and because I actually like Atzmon and I know Tony and him have had their 'differences'. But I was wrong, and I'm quite happy I was wrong(while embarrassed to admit to rushing to judgement after only skirting through the material. I did have the flu at the time, for whatever that's worth).<br /><br />"You make it sound as if the likes of TG, and UK solidarity, are responsible for the crimes being waged against occupied Palestinians."<br /><br />Well I don't think that, but I do think that it's important that solidarity movements are just that and not fragmented by infighting. With Zionists working overtime to infiltrate the peace movements it's even more important.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-55285945291225614002010-01-29T17:19:34.015+00:002010-01-29T17:19:34.015+00:00Sorry, Tony for misrepresenting your views. I tho...Sorry, Tony for misrepresenting your views. I thought I had read that in your piece but apparently I hadn't - my humble apologies.<br /><br /><br />Fascism -"a political ideology that seeks to combine radical and authoritarian nationalism with a corporatist economic system,and which is usually considered to be on the far right of the traditional left-right political spectrum."<br />(Wikipedia) <br /><br />Israel, it can be argued(though not to convincingly,imo)is a center/left society - though it has moved conspicuously to the right lately. But you can only argue this if you are talking about "The Jews". Everything else in the definition is more than adequately represented by the Jewish state, eg.corporatism/militarism.<br /><br />Throw in the racist/supremacist angle, and the 'acquisition of territory through war' and I think we do have a fairly precise label.<br /><br />I am aware of the use and abuse of the term in recent years, so I do not use the term lightly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-79151296071049858972010-01-28T22:52:14.047+00:002010-01-28T22:52:14.047+00:00Duncan - Well at the Branch Forum and in the comme...Duncan - Well at the Branch Forum and in the comments which have been quoted, we are being accused of doing the Zionists' work by criticising them. That in my eyes is tantamount to such an accusation<br /><br />Yes there are real political differences but of course PSC Exec/SA don't articulate them but hide behind general notions of 'solidarity' whilst refusing all criticism of the Palestinian Authority and adopting a 2 State position in practice. The 'peace process' is the main thing for them.<br /><br />The attitude to BDS activists is part and parcel of their attitude to any independent initiative that they can't control. Hence their lukewarm approach to the occupations in colleges at the beginning of last year.<br /><br />Jock - SA have now come out of the closet and no, I don't think that the intelligence services have put up a bogus web page with tributes to Redmond O'Neill.<br /><br />If you wait for unarguable evidence then hell will freeze over first. I cannot produce any membership cards for individuals but if members of PSC Executive and staff have recently been or are now associated with the Student Broad Left, which everyone else on the Left in the student movement is Socialist Action's student wing then it is a question of who do you believe?<br /><br />re Weekly Worker. I have written articles in WW and I've done so in many other left publications and even some not so left. E.g. Tribune, Permanent Revolution, Guardian CIF etc. etc. But I don't agree with the CPGB on Palestine (2 democratic, secular states) and debated with them and Moshe Machover of Matzpen recently.<br /><br />I don't believe there is any truth for the allegations of secret state involvement in them and this kind of allegation is destabilising to the left because it increases paranoia all round and does do the spooks job for them. Remember the WRP?<br /><br />My disagreement with SA is 2 fold - they are not honest enough to come out with their own politics in their own name and are instead using PSC as a convenient way of employing some of their members in a project that has little to do with PSC and secondly they have no class politics, hence why they support the Palestinian Authority and Abbas and equally why they oppose such things as breaking links with Histadrut.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-88499639682047280632010-01-28T21:38:35.385+00:002010-01-28T21:38:35.385+00:00Yes, but... I don't yet see ANY solid evidence...Yes, but... I don't yet see ANY solid evidence that Socialist Action really EXISTS, or that ANYONE is a member of it PSC or no, much less that it's taken over PSC. Would you consider it impossible that the state security services or Mossad could fake up the Socialist Action web-page? What info we have about Socialist Action seems to come from very dubious sources like Nick Cohen and the that self-confessed MI5 asset (forgotten his name, you know - ex New Statesman)who made the film about Ken Livingstone. 'Common knowledge' doesn't cut any ice.<br /><br /> Maybe you're right, Tony. You make a lot of valid points about PSC's approach (and a lot I disagree with obviously), and you've written a lot of worthwhile stuff in the past, but you must be aware that most people who are aware of 'the Weekly Worker', with which you have a long-standing association, at least wonder if it is a security services front for sowing suspicion and distrust amongst 'the left' (for want of a better work). Maybe that's justified, maybe it's not, but you can't deny that it's a common perception, and so, in the absence of very substantial evidence, these stories about Socialist Action could seem to fit into this pattern. <br /> In the absence of totally unarguable evidence, I think it better if you concentrate on what seems to me very valid concerns about PSC's excess concentration on the trade-union bureaucracy, and come up with some suggestions PSC members can vote on.jock mctrousersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-57920462497360064462010-01-28T11:26:00.061+00:002010-01-28T11:26:00.061+00:00Politically, I generally agree with the feeling th...Politically, I generally agree with the feeling that the PSC leadership is excluding BDS campaigners in a factional way which harms the PSC's long-term interests. However, you are making all of this much easier for them with the deeply mistaken notion that they are accusing people in PSC of being Zionist agents. If this conflict has generally negative results for PSC then it will indeed "help those who want to see PSC fail in our efforts to build a mass movement". But Zionist agency isn't the reason for people in PSC to not work together well: it's because of real differences over strategy, pluralism and tactics. There will be little progress unless you focus on those real differences - which both sides in PSC can admit to - unlike this nonsence about Zionist agents.Duncan Chapelhttp://www.socialistresistance.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-57951645404341701842010-01-27T17:56:34.059+00:002010-01-27T17:56:34.059+00:00...Zionism as a legitmate form of Judaism...
- Th...<i>...Zionism as a legitmate form of Judaism...</i> <br />- This sounds like the sort of gibberish Atzmon likes to peddle.<br />His methodology, or recipe, is as follows - <br />- take some keywords or phrases, jumble them about a bit, and hey presto, instant deep and meaningful twaddle none of his worshippers actually understands, but won't admit to it either.<br /><br />Scottish presbyterian Gordon Brown, Prime Minster of the UK, is a zionist. Presumably that makes his presbyterianism a legitimate form of, er, Judaism.<br />Same with zionist Tony Blair and his British Roman Catholicism - same with zionist George W. Bush and his born again Christain evangelism.<br /><br /><i>So you guys have your spat while Gaza burns and the U.S gives up on the 'peace process'.</i><br />- So what exactly are you doing apart from trying to incite a spat on a blog comments section?<br /><br />Don't you have anything better to do?<br /><br />You make it sound as if the likes of TG, and UK solidarity, are responsible for the crimes being waged against occupied Palestinians.joe90 kanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15925893894108250518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-15270429085890385932010-01-27T02:05:51.867+00:002010-01-27T02:05:51.867+00:00No. The 'spat' is about how best to build ...No. The 'spat' is about how best to build solidarity with the Palestinians and overthrow the Israeli state.<br /><br />I don't agree that Israel is a fascist state. The term 'fascism' is used as another way of saying you don't like something. It is better to be precise because then you understand why what has happened took place. Israel is a settler colonial society like South Africa under Apartheid.<br /><br />And no. You clearly haven't read anything I've written since I am opposed to a 2 states solution. I don't accept that Zionism is part of Judaism, but I do believe that it has shaped Judaism in the second half of the 20th century. Religions are very adaptable things.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-9079507317882312582010-01-26T21:22:43.270+00:002010-01-26T21:22:43.270+00:00So you guys have your spat while Gaza burns and th...So you guys have your spat while Gaza burns and the U.S gives up on the 'peace process'.<br /><br />How many chances are you willing to give Israel Tony before you realize you are not dealing with a nation but with a fascist ideology. Israel as an idea, as a construct and as a lethal reality is irredeemable; it never was legitimate - and that is the truth. If you are still promoting a two-state solution to this issue, and thus accepting Zionism as a legitmate form of Judaism - than you are part of the problem, unfortunately, and not the solution.<br /><br />And if you don't know that now, I promise you you will one day...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com