tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post7676641649420991521..comments2024-03-28T04:26:49.354+00:00Comments on Tony Greenstein's Blog: Death of Israel’s pro-Nazi Prime Minister Yitzhak ShamirTony Greensteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-8948548277620926932012-10-23T03:26:37.495+01:002012-10-23T03:26:37.495+01:00As for Shabtai beit Zvi, why don't you just l...As for Shabtai beit Zvi, why don't you just look it up instead of spewing your nonsense. You could even try reading some Zionist critiques such as Dina Porats.<br /><br />He is incidentally a Zionist! Try http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Post_Ugandan_Zionism_on_Trial.html?id=WS4kSwAACAAJ and stop wasting my time.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-19805575566957806162012-10-23T03:24:47.218+01:002012-10-23T03:24:47.218+01:00'There is more.'
I don't doubt there&...'There is more.'<br /><br />I don't doubt there's more hasbarah but you display your ignorance everytime you open your mouth, so why bother? <br /><br />Why you don't consider as "imperialism" Country capture by Arabs ;-), but think, what we, the Jews owning this earth much earlier than Arabs, have no rights to it?<br /><br />Because the indigenous people of Palestine consquered nothing. They were living there, just as the Africans lived in Africa. Just because European settlers came with biblical myths along with the rifle, doesn't make them imperialists.<br /><br />'There is more.'<br /><br />You said that already. But none of it is very impressive I'm afraid.<br /><br /><br />Arabs many centuries treated very badly the Jews living in the Arab countries. Discrimination, humiliations, riots, exiles, violent islamisation :-((( Now Israel treats the Arabs living under its power, is much softer (not including protection against the Arab terror. If the Palestinian Jews in the 7th century tried to arrange such terror against the Arab invaders, Arabs would exterminate them.) The Palestinian Arabs should thank every day God for this UNDESERVED condescension of Jews, and they dream of destruction of Israel and a new Holocaust.<br /><br />More fantasies I'm afraid. Presumably that's why the Spanish Jews who escaped the Inquisition went to Egypt and Morocco. I pr esume even u have heard of Maimonedes?<br /><br /><br />That these prosecutions and riots proceeded even in a century. You forgot disorder ("Farhud") in Iraq in June 1941; riots in Libya and Egypt in 1945 (that is long before emergence of Israel) though local Jews didn't encroach at all on the Arab power. <br /><br />In fact 1941 and 1945 is not very far off from 1948. Since Zionism had been established since the beginning of the century your own argument falls down (again).<br /><br /><br />As it is told in the Talmud "the one who is merciful to the cruel - it is cruel to merciful"<br /><br />Which just goes to show what rubbish the Talmud mainly consists of. It also talks of boiling Jesus in excrement. <br /><br />In the Farhud about 180 Jews died. How many died in the holocaust? 1% of Jews died under fascist/Nazi occupation of North Africa compared to about 60-70% on average in Europe.<br /><br />From the beginning of the Arab revolt in the Country of Israel <br /><br />It was called Palestine<br /><br />in April, in Iraq 1936 attacks on Jews and acts of terrorism began. <br /><br />Yes the revolt of a colonial people is usually called terrorism, unlike the blowing up of the King David Hotel or the bombing by the Irgun of Haifa market in 1938.<br /><br />I won't bother with any more of your gibberish. Go and bother someone else with your ill-informed nonsense. I can appreciate a well informed Zionist to debate with but you are just an ignoramusTony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-27482464907176307382012-10-23T03:24:40.543+01:002012-10-23T03:24:40.543+01:001. The Zionism appeared long before Nazism.
Yes b...1. The Zionism appeared long before Nazism.<br /><br />Yes but Nazism didn't appear out of nowhere. Heinrich Class's Pan German League had 100,000 members<br /><br />2. Zionists usually weren't racists. The majority of them hoped peacefully and amicably to live with Arabs in future state. Arabs preferred to kill Jews.<br /><br />I suppose statements like that of Pinhas Rosenbluth, Israel’s Minister of Justice that Palestine as "an institute for the fumigation of Jewish vermin." ‘ Joachim Doron ‘Classic Zionism and Modern Anti-Semitism: Parallels and Influences (1883-1914), Studies in Zionism, No. 8 Autumn 1983 isn't racist? <br /><br />Or the statement that 'if we do not admit the rightfulness of anti-Semitism we deny the rightfulness of our own nationalism... Instead of establishing societies for defence against the anti-Semites who want to reduce our rights, we should establish societies for defence against our friends, who desire to defend our rights.'<br /> <br />And the Nazi ideologists in turn returned the complements. Heinrich Class who on Hitler’s elevation to power was made an honorary member of the Reichstag, wrote:<br />Those who regard the Jews as a foreign race, which despite its participation in all the products of our culture did not become German... must honour the fact that among the Jews themselves the nationalist movement called Zionism is gaining more and more adherents. One must take one’s hat off to the Zionists, they admit - openly and honestly- that their people are a folk of its own kind whose basic characteristics are immutable.. They also declare openly that a true assimilation of the Jewish aliens to the host nations would be impossible according to the natural laws of race... THE ZIONISTS CONFIRM WHAT THE ENEMIES OF THE JEWS, THE ADHERENTS OF THE RACIAL THEORY HAVE ALWAYS ASSERTED... German and Jewish nationalists are of one opinion in regard to the indestructibility of the Jewish race<br /><br />Or the visit by Arthur Ruppin to Prof. Hans Gunther, Himmler's chief ideological mentor, in 1933 at Jenna University to have a friendly chat about their shared racial obsessions. Ruppin was known as the father of land settlement in Palestine. I could quote Alfred Rosenberg, the Nazi Party's chief ideologue, in his citing and praise of the Zionists but I will leave you to look it up in Francis Nicosia's book on Anti-Semitism - he is a Zionist incidentally.<br /><br />3. There are no proofs of a little appreciable origin of the Palestinian Arabs from Jews. For example, at them it is not found specifically Jewish (including, "of cohens") types of Y-chromosome J(at Jews more than 50 or 60 % of men have such origin.) But the Jewish origin even the majority ashkenazis is visible on our appearance and on genes ;)<br /><br />There u go. Biological racism and all of it nonsense.<br /><br />'There is more.'<br /><br />I don't doubt it. Palestinians don't love Zionist settlers but never had problems with living with Jews as individuals.<br /><br />Return of Jews to the Country of Israel, "Alija", occurred all the time before emergence of Zionism(and before the Arab <br />occupation of the Country ;) ) <br /><br />No the Palestinians lived their, they didn't 'occupy' it. You come up with the same hoary myths that the Afrikaaners did or the Australians about 'terra nullis'<br /><br />Well if the majority of Jews preferred to go anywhere but Palestine and if the 'old Yishuv' i.e. the Jews who were living there were opposed to Zionism, as Chaim Weizmann freely admitted, then that should tell you something.<br /><br />That the majority of Jews preferred to go to other countries, doesn't cancel our rights to the Country. Arabs, grasping "Palestine" in a VII century, well knew this Jewish claim, but ignored it.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-92033446168108767772012-10-23T02:41:58.140+01:002012-10-23T02:41:58.140+01:00About that, "as Zionists didn't rescue Je...About that, "as Zionists didn't rescue Jews" I will try to write tomorrow. While only I notice:<br />You referred on certain "Shabtai Beit Zvi".<br />1. There is no such Jewish surname of "Beit Zvi". In general, the word "Beyt" ("house" in the design interfaced to another word) (almost) is never used in the Jewish surnames.<br />2. Shabtai (Sabbatay) Zvi - known Jewish pseudo-Messiah of the 17th century, passed then to Islam, the founder of heretical sect, outcast other Jews. Hardly any Israelian Jew would take itself these a name and a surname ;-) But they are known to many non Jews, but is worse, than "who is he was".<br /><br />That is, founders of your anti-Zionist forgery couldn't give it to invented "author" a normal name and surname, and committed in them 2 gross blunders! :))<br /><br />To be continued.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-60663888219186795512012-10-23T02:29:00.196+01:002012-10-23T02:29:00.196+01:00"This idea of the relationship between a '..."This idea of the relationship between a 'people' and land is reminiscent of blut and boden, blood and soil, the basics of Nazi racial ideology and it is as superficial and wrong now as then."----------<br /><br />1. The Zionism appeared long before Nazism.<br />2. Zionists usually weren't racists. The majority of them hoped peacefully and amicably to live with Arabs in future state. Arabs preferred to kill Jews.<br />3. There are no proofs of a little appreciable origin of the Palestinian Arabs from Jews. For example, at them it is not found specifically Jewish (including, "of cohens") types of Y-chromosome J(at Jews more than 50 or 60 % of men have such origin.) But the Jewish origin even the majority ashkenazis is visible on our appearance and on genes ;)<br />There is more. You say that the Palestinian Arabs allegedly occur from Jews. But after all they don't recognize it, and hate their Jewish "tribespeople", and don't recognize our rights. THEN why we should recognize their rights? ;(<br /><br />Return of Jews to the Country of Israel, "Alija", occurred all the time before emergence of Zionism(and before the Arab occupation of the Country ;) ) That the majority of Jews preferred to go to other countries, doesn't cancel our rights to the Country. Arabs, grasping "Palestine" in a VII century, well knew this Jewish claim, but ignored it.<br /><br />There is more. Why you don't consider as "imperialism" Country capture by Arabs ;-), but think, what we, the Jews owning this earth much earlier than Arabs, have no rights to it?<br /><br />There is more. Arabs many centuries treated very badly the Jews living in the Arab countries. Discrimination, humiliations, riots, exiles, violent islamisation :-((( Now Israel treats the Arabs living under its power, is much softer (not including protection against the Arab terror. If the Palestinian Jews in the 7th century tried to arrange such terror against the Arab invaders, Arabs would exterminate them.) The Palestinian Arabs should thank every day God for this UNDESERVED condescension of Jews, and they dream of destruction of Israel and a new Holocaust.<br />That these prosecutions and riots proceeded even in a century. You forgot disorder ("Farhud") in Iraq in June 1941; riots in Libya and Egypt in 1945 (that is long before emergence of Israel) though local Jews didn't encroach at all on the Arab power. As it is told in the Talmud "the one who is merciful to the cruel - it is cruel to merciful" :(<br /><br />From the beginning of the Arab revolt in the Country of Israel in April, in Iraq 1936 attacks on Jews and acts of terrorism began. On the eve of Groves and - Shang 1936 in the face of all two Jews leaving the Jewish club were killed by shots. On Groves and - Shang this year «Day of Palestine» was appointed, and there were two more attacks on the Jews, one was killed, another is crippled. On Yom Kipur the bomb was thrown into the overflowed synagogue, but, fortunately, didn't blow up. In October the grenade was thrown into the Jewish club, one person was killed. The patience of the Jewish community burst: the Jewish strike was appointed to October 18, 1936: all shops belonging to Jews were closed, children didn't send to schools. 11 days later after a strike in Iraq there was the next revolution; the new authorities promised to the management of the Baghdad community that will put things in order, but demanded, that leading Jewish figures published the statement in which they would declare themselves loyal citizens of the homeland and kept separate from Zionism. Despite promises, acts of terrorism proceeded and further. More all them was during war with Great Britain when in a month there were 13 cases of murder of Jews.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-20377356526467011922012-10-06T02:32:25.317+01:002012-10-06T02:32:25.317+01:00"Completely accurate statistics about the num..."Completely accurate statistics about the number of inhabitants do not presently exist. One must admit that the density of the population does not give the visitor much cause for cheer. In whole stretches throughout the land one constantly comes across large Arab villages, and it is an established fact that the most fertile areas of our country are occupied by Arabs..." (Protocol of the Second Zionist Congress, Pg. 103)." Leo Motzkin see also Ahad Ha'am.<br /><br />Yes Zionism pretended the land was empty just as the Afrikaaners did with Southern Africa. Colonialists think alike and as in Australia consider the land they conquered empty ('terra nullis' was the term they used).<br /><br />Much of your nonsense comes from Joan Peter's 'from time immemorial' - a forgery that cited a 14th century philosopher on Palestine in the 19th century. It has been comprehensively debunked but that still doesn't prevent Zionist myth makers returning like dogs to their vomit.<br /><br />As Leo Motzkin observed, there were whole stretches of Arab villages, 400 of which the Zionists razed to the ground. Facts are difficult to overcome hence the need for myth.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-56679957464623664022012-10-06T02:26:25.200+01:002012-10-06T02:26:25.200+01:00The danger is in rewriting history through today&#...The danger is in rewriting history through today's spectacles. Most Jews in Palestine became Christians. there was no longing to preserve a Jewish political tradition and most Jews, religious and anti-Zionist, came to study and die in Palestine, particularly Jerusalem without any thought of colonising the country. <br /><br />You talk of 'Jewish consciousness' as if it's a fact. But whenever they had a chance Jews went anywhere but Palestine, as in the great migration from Russia from 1850-1914 when just 2% of 2.5 million went there. This idea of the relationship between a 'people' and land is reminiscent of blut and boden, blood and soil, the basics of Nazi racial ideology and it is as superficial and wrong now as then.<br /><br />Messianism certainly did crop up. There were many false Messiahs but it took British imperialism to redeem them! You get your facts wrong when talking of the myth of the Roman expulsion in the first century. There was no expulsion, that was not the Roman way. There was a continual emigration caused by the inability of the land to support the people, but that's a different matter. There's no historical evidence for it and most Jewish historians decry it. The presence of Jews in Palestine, of which little is known anyway for most of the time between the 1st century and Ottoman times, signified nothing except Palestine as a meeting place for all religions. Dreams of Zion were dreams of safety and a better life, something Palestine never held out, hence why there were so few Jews in Palestine compared to Arabs as early Zionists like Leo Motzkin freely admitted.<br /><br />Zionism was the most recent of colonial movements and it borrowed from the past to plunder the future.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-85684082116350965922012-10-05T20:34:24.935+01:002012-10-05T20:34:24.935+01:00http://zionismontheweb.org/Palestinian_Israel_Conf...http://zionismontheweb.org/Palestinian_Israel_Conflict/?tag=benzion-dinur<br /> ...become the State of Israel in 1948.” (Behat pp 64-65)<br /> <br />One must also bear in mind that Zionism is not a modern phenomenon imitating other nationalistic movements prevalent in the 19th century. While a spiritual longing to return to Zion has long existed ever since Jewish expulsion by the Romans in the first century, there has been a constant physical Jewish aliya -“going up” – or return to Israel driven by the age old messianic dream of medieval times which started well before the early Zionist aliyot (plural of aliya) in the 1880’s. <b>The relationship between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel is a basic element in Jewish consciousness.</b> For some historians, notably Benzion Dinur, Israel’s Minister of Education from 1951-1955, the driving force behind the aliyot of the medieval and early modern periods was the “Messianic ferment” that cropped up in Jewish communities which...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-45714928784296996242012-10-05T19:58:02.694+01:002012-10-05T19:58:02.694+01:00Arabs/Muslims consider that has the right to grasp...Arabs/Muslims consider that has the right to grasp any another's earth at "incorrect" ;) But you recognize "rights" of Arabs on grasped by their ancestors without any rights of the earth, and don't recognize the right of Jews to the RETURNED earth of our ancestors. It is double injustice; - ((<br /><br /> I also advise to you to esteem, as Muslims, since the first century of Islam and almost up to now, treated Jews living under their power, "dhimmi". OFFICIAL systematic humiliations (!!), heavy discrimination, frequent violent addresses to Islam. Only the European colonization softened or stopped this outrage. How modern Muslims have the nerve to complain of discrimination of Arabs in Israel?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-72859989772704072792012-10-05T18:33:30.298+01:002012-10-05T18:33:30.298+01:00...To the extent that land in the coastal and othe......To the extent that land in the coastal and other plains was capable of being cultivated, wild marauding Bedouin tribes present in these areas discouraged any permanent rural settlement or agricultural development. Consequently the lower flat lying areas were more or less desolate and unproductive. In addition:<br /> » the Northern and central coastal plains were swamp-like and malaria-ridden as was the land around the Hula lake and the Lake of Galilee;<br /> » the Southern coastal plains were inundated with sand dunes;<br /> » Consequently, Arab urban and rural settlements tended to avoid the coastal plains and were to be found mainly in the hill country west of the Jordan River in Judea and Samaria and parts of the Galilee...<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-54067242733657304382012-10-05T18:31:02.288+01:002012-10-05T18:31:02.288+01:00Tony, on your fairy tales "as Zionists preven...Tony, on your fairy tales "as Zionists prevented noble Aryans to rescue Jews from the Holocaust" I will answer a bit later. While esteem research of the professor Bentzion Dinur about "aboriginal" ;) Arab inhabitants of Palestine: It is useful for you.<br />Fragments: http://zionismontheweb.org/Palestinian_Israel_Conflict/?tag=benzion-dinur<br /> "...a. Inward Arab Settlement of Palestine pre 1918<br /> <br />Inward migratory settlement came from both Ottoman (Turkish) and Egyptian sources:<br /> <br />i. Ottoman Grant of Asylum to Muslim Refugees<br /> <br />The Ottomans granted asylum to Moslem refugees fleeing from their homelands for political and religious reasons:<br /> » After the French conquest of Algeria in 1830, many Algerians settled in Lower and Upper Galilee. This region also attracted other immigrant Moslem Arabs from Damascus, and Kurds from Syria;<br /> » In 1878, the Ottomans permitted Circassian refugees fleeing from Christian-Russian rule in the Caucasus to settle in cis- and trans-Jordan;<br /> » Turkoman tribes from the mountains of Iraq were allowed ultimately to settle on the slopes of Mount Carmel;<br /> » In 1908, Arabs from Yemen settled in Jaffa.<br /> <br />ii. Egyptian Émigrés<br /> <br />One of the most important Arab migrations into Palestine came from Egypt during the early and min-nineteenth century.<br /> » Egyptian Army Conscription<br /> » Muhammad Ali, (aka Mehemet Ali) the Ottoman viceroy of Egypt between 1805-1849, instituted a number of administrative reforms within his territory. Most significantly he established a standing army by means of conscription in 1829. As a consequence, many Egyptian peasants fled to Palestine to avoid such service. This was to be of little avail, because Ali’s son, Ibrahim Pasha, invaded and occupied Palestine between 1831-1841 and they again came under his control. During this period he ‘imported’ more Egyptian labourers into Palestine in addition to those who were already there..."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-80798485902036312832012-09-18T14:07:14.610+01:002012-09-18T14:07:14.610+01:00This was not just the conclusion of one or 2 histo...This was not just the conclusion of one or 2 historians but most who are not utterly slavish to the Zionist cause.<br /><br />And there was Rudolph Vrba whose Auschwitz Protocols likewise led to the saving of Budapest Jewry? Someone the Zionists attacked for not being a Zionist unsurprisingly.<br />You should face the fact that the Zionist movement was a movement of collaboration which wrote off, even denied, the holocaust when it took place and mercilessly exploited it after the war. And they used the reparations of the German state to help build the Israeli state whilst keeping the holocaust survivors (for whom the reparations were meant) in penury.<br />Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-81988766161876763502012-09-18T14:06:54.375+01:002012-09-18T14:06:54.375+01:00Or see Shabtai Beit Zvi’s Post Ugandan Zionism on ...Or see Shabtai Beit Zvi’s Post Ugandan Zionism on Trial:<br /><br />The meeting of “the nation’s leaders” referred to by Gruenbaum took place on June 11, 1944. It was a meeting of the Jewish Agency Executive in Jerusalem. Gruenbaum reported on his talk with the U.S. consul-general in Jerusalem, J.C. Pinkerton. …<br /><br />To the Jewish Agency Executive Gruenbaum said: “According to the reports we have, thousands of Jews are being murdered every day in the death camps. … Even if we supposed that these camps will be bombed while Jews are in them, and some of them are killed, the others will be able to scatter and will be saved. If the buildings are destroyed, they will not be able to commit murder for months using their technique.”<br /><br />The discussion was short and lively. Five of the eight Executive members at the meeting took part. All of them rejected the proposal outright. One of them, Dr. Shmorak, took issue with Gruenbaum’s information regarding the small population at Auschwitz. Two others, Dr. Joseph (Dov Yosef) and Dr. Senator, were openly outraged that Gruenbaum had made this suggestion to the consul-general. The chairman, David Ben-Gurion, summed up: “The opinion of the Executive is that no proposals should be made to the Allies to bomb places where Jews are located.”<br /><br />Beit Zvi writes that: ‘Clearly, then, it was not a case of the momentary absence of a majority in favor of bombing. There was general agreement against Gruenbaum’s view and a clearcut decision of principle against making such proposals to the Allies. And what happened “after a time”? Did the Jewish Agency Executive change its mind, and if so, what was its new stance? In fact, the request to bomb Auschwitz was not made “after a time,” as Gruenbaum would have it, but at the very same time and perhaps even before the Executive’s negative decision. The documents relating to this episode99 indicate that the request was made by Weizmann, who was then in London, concurrently with the rejection of Gruenbaum’s proposal by the Jewish Agency Executive. But Weizmann’s proposal was made without authority and wasn’t followed up. It was another plea made for the record. Never was there a campaign, in the press or elsewhere, still less a demonstration. Zionists then seemed remarkably lethargic about demonstrating in favour of action to be taken and as in Washington, when hundreds of Rabbis held a demonstration to the White House, were actually opposed to so doing.<br /><br />You can also read much the same in for example Tom Segev’s ‘7th Million’. ‘Although I was then chairman of the Jewish Agency executive, the enlistment of the Jewish people in the demand for a Jewish state was at the center of my activity.’ [98] ‘the disaster facing European Jewry is not directly my business.’<br /><br />‘purely philanthropic rescue, such as the rescue of German Jewry,… can only cause damage from a Zionist perspective…’ [100] ‘The leaders of the Jewish Agency generally agreed with the principle that the few that could be saved should be selected in accordance with the needs of the Zionist enterprise in Palestine.’ The apotheosis of this was the Kasztner episode when the Zionists train of 1684 was paid for by silence and complicity over the deportation of ½ million Hungarian Jews. Little wonder that members of the Jewish Agency grew queasy at how they would be seen after the war. ‘We are full of sin’ summed up one of them and another predicted that after the war the Jewish Agency would find itself in the dock. ‘Shame on us’ said Golda Meir.’ [103]<br />Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-43565725043928327912012-09-18T14:05:39.518+01:002012-09-18T14:05:39.518+01:00'In spite of the certainty that genocide was b...'In spite of the certainty that genocide was being carried out, the JAE did not deviate appreciably from its routine and Ben Gurion the chairman, left all its rescue efforts completely in the hands of Gruenbaum, Sharett and Kaplan, not even taking part in the Rescue Committee. Two facts can be definitely stated: Ben-Gurion did not put the rescue effort above Zionist politics and he did not regard it as a principal task demanding his personal leadership; he never saw fit to explain why, then or later. Instead he devoted his effort to rallying the Yishuv and Zionism around the Biltmore Program and to the preparations for its implementation.<br /><br />And ‘For nearly 2 years… Ben-Gurion was more concerned for the fate of the Yishuv than for that of European Jewry. Ben-Gurion repeatedly stresed that the importance of the Yishuv went far beyond the individual Jews of Palestine.’ Why? Because ‘the Yishuv was a “great and invaluable security, a security for the hope of the Jewish people.’ [849] <br /><br />In other words the achievement of this bastard racial state which would perpetuate the mythical Jewish nation was more important than individual Jews themselves. The holocaust was seen as a means of levering into being the Jewish state. No matter that millions of Jews would have died by then. ‘“distress” could also serve as “political leverage” [850]. He [Ben-Gurion] told the JAE, “The harsher the affliction, the greater the strength of Zionism.” <br /><br />What other conclusion can be draw than Teveth’s following statement?<br /><br />‘If there was a line in Ben-Gurion’s mind between the beneficial disaster and an all-destroying catastrophe, it must have been a very fine one.’ [851] <br /><br />You ask where did I read that Ben Gurion was opposed to the bombing. Here:<br /><br />'The Bombing of Auschwitz Revisited: A Critical Analysis Holocaust and Genocide Studies. Vol. 10 Number 3. Winter 1996. p. 270, <br /><br />Richard H. Levy states: ‘The JAE in Jerusalem was opposed, and even suppressed an appeal for the bombing of Auschwitz.(24) Gruenbaum reported on June 7 that when he met with Pinkerton on June 2 he asked the latter to transmit to Washington an appeal to bomb "the death camps in Poland." Foreshadowing Kubowitzkis arguments, Pinkerton asked "Will this not cause the deaths of many Jews? And will not German propaganda claim that the Americans are participating in the extermination of the Jews?" He then declined to transmit the request unless it was made in writing. <br /><br />24. Gruenbaum's Memorandum of June 7, Central Zionist Archives S 26/1232; Minutes of the Meeting of the JAE, June 11, CZA. Gruenbaums letter of June 21 to Barlas, CZA S 26/1284. Gruenbaum's correspondence, but not the minutes of the meeting of the Executive, were noted by Yehuda Bauer, American Jewry and the Holocaust (Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1981), p. 496, note 31.<br />Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-46775063422782876272012-09-18T14:04:41.826+01:002012-09-18T14:04:41.826+01:00I won't waste my time with someone who doesn&#...I won't waste my time with someone who doesn't even have the integrity to give their name, yet calls Shlomo Sand a 'liar' - actually a trained historian whose book was in the best seller lists in Israel for 19 weeks and whose thesis, about the Palestinians being the direct descendants of the Hebrews was something both Ben Gurion and Yitzhak ben Zvi (1st PM and 2nd President of Israel), agreed with.<br /><br />My concern is not primarily with the atrocious record of the British and US Governments. That is taken for granted. It is the quisling Zionist movement which gave full backing to those governments and also gave them cover. It even condemned those Jews who did try to break the silence and do something.<br /><br />I suggest you read Lenni Brenner's 51 Documents in which Stephen Wise, the acknowledged head of the US Zionist movement and President of the AJC described Peter Bergson of the Emergency Committee to Save Jews (a dissident revionist Zionist) as 'worse than Hitler.' These are in the State Dept. records.<br /><br />Wise, Goldman et al did their best to prevent anything being done, opposed the setting up of the War Refugee Board until the US Secretary to the Treasury, Henry Morgenthau, exposed the lies and deceptions of the State Department Zionists and anti-Semites, in particular Breckenbridge Long, who had consistently downplayed the holocaust and the no. of Jewish refugees who had come to the US.<br /><br />Even though formed very late, January 44, the WRB was responsible for saving maybe 400,000 Jews.<br /><br />All your screeching and screaming indicate is that you know next to nothing about what happened. <br /><br />As for Ben Gurion, Chairman of the Jewish Agency, his role was particularly disgusting and even Zionist historians don't mince word (as opposed to gullible hasbarists).<br /><br />Shabtai Teveth, who was Ben Gurion's official biographer and some would say hagiographer, cannot ignore Ben Gurion's prioritisation of building the State as opposed to taking any steps to rescue Jews. A meeting of the Mapai Central Committee was more important than taking time out to see how aid could concretely be given to get Jews out of Nazi occupied Europe. This is what Teveth says in The Burning Ground 1886-1948, Boston 1987:<br /><br />He [BG] maintained a puzzling silence about what was taking place in Europe and Riegner's telegram'. p. 842 But it wasn't so puzzling. 1942 was the year of Biltmore when demands were explicitly made for a Jewish state. Zionist leaders were quite clear that their main task was statehood not saving Jews.<br /><br />But what was so shocking was they actually obstructed the rescue efforts of others because they saw them as a danger to establishing a state. Ben Gurion was absolutely explicit about this in his 1938 Memo to the Zionist Executive which talks about the dangers of 'refugeeism' taking priority over Zionism.<br /><br />Even in terms of Zionist meetings the holocaust received no priority, indeed at the Jewish Agency Executive meetings [the proto-Israeli state govt.] no mention was made of the holocaust nor was it discussed on November 1, 8 or 15 1942] . p.844 By November 22 with the arrival of 69 Exchange Jews from Belsen, there was definite confirmation of Riegner's telegram of the previous September confirming the holocaust (the Jewish Agency had suppressed news of this for three months) when maybe ½ million more Jews had been murdered. When Eliayahu Dobkin of the JA told one woman from Radom he didn't believe her stories he was slapped in the face for his pains. This was the Zionist attitude.<br /><br />And did Ben Gurion attend the JA meeting of 22 November when all this was discussed? no, he had a 'light cold'. On p.848 of Teveth we read that:Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-34968898482068915092012-09-18T10:20:14.631+01:002012-09-18T10:20:14.631+01:001. "Most Jews at the time of Herod had alread...1. "Most Jews at the time of Herod had already left, as the soil could not support them. They were to be found in large numbers in the Hellenised cities of the Middle East like Alexandria."--------<br />But there were some more millions in the Country of Israel. And even before the Arab capture of the Country in a VII century Jews made about a quarter of her inhabitants, by estimates of the Israelian historian Gedaliya Allon. Arabs played a role in replacement of Jews from the Country, an in deprivation of the Jewish lands as the Israelian professor Bentsion Dinur found:<br /> http://zionismontheweb.org/Palestinian_Israel_Conflict/?tag=benzion-dinur<br /> And when former owners returned, Arabs began to kill them to prevent Jews to RETURN the country.<br /><br />2. "Most of those who remained converted to Christianity and then Islam, or at least the poor Jewish farmers did."---------<br /> You have any PROOFS of it, or you simply like to think so?<br /><br /><br />3. "As Shlomo Sands pointed out, biologically the Palestinians are the true descendants of the ancient Hebrews"----------<br />Shlomo Zand - the known liar. Its book is called "Who and as invented the Jewish people" though these people exist about 30 centuries :)<br /><br />4. "...not the European settlers who were part of the Zionist movement."---------<br />These settlers - descendants of ancient Jews. Semitic (though with evuropean impurity) the origin of Jews, even Ashkenazi, is visible on their appearance :)<br /><br /><br />5. "I notice that Anonymous conflates 1936-9, the great Arab rebellion, which was primarily directed at the British with the dates he had chosen."--------<br />This revolt was directed first of all against Jews, with constant PREMEDITATED murders of the Jewish CIVILIAN population. It was already at all "blind rage", but COOL, prudent crimes. It is interesting, why you don't condemn these murderers?<br /><br /><br />6. "I also note that the bomb attacks by the Irgun on Haifa market in 1938 and the subsequent killings of Arab civilians by both them and the Histadrut don't get a mention either."------------<br />You "forgot" that Irgun's anti-Arab acts of terrorism were ONLY the ANSWER to murders by Arabs of the Jewish peace citizens, including women and children ;((( you also forgot that these acts of terrorism began only in 1937, and extended only in 1938, in 1-2 years after the beginning of Arab "revolt". Jews were very patient (official Zionist policy of restraint in reply to the ARAB terror, "havlagah"), but then the patience of some of them ended.<br /><br /><br />7. "Well I certainly do condemn the USA for its behaviour towards the Jewish refugees."---------<br />If you condemn it why you don't abuse in the blog of the Aryan anti-Semites, refusing to let in the countries of Jewish refugees, BUT abuse Zionists who had no states and even the earth, and almost COULD make nothing?!<br /><br />8. "Pity that the leaders of US Zionism, Nahum Goldmann and Stephen Wise not only refused to oppose the State Department under the anti-Semitic Under Secretary Breckenbridge Long, but actually supported such restrictions."-------- <br />Than SPECIFICALLY they "supported such restrictions"?! From what source you took this strange statement?<br /> If Aryan US authorities, Canada, Australia, England wanted to let in to themselves the Jewish refugees, they would make it irrespective of Zionists. But they DID NOT WANT:<br /> http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/evian/chapter3.html <br /><br /><br />9. "Apparently I don't condemn those who refused 'to bomb roads to concentration camps, camp gas chambers and crematoriums.'"----------<br />Why you don't condemn them? The "Alliance" officially waged war not only against nazi Germany, but also for rescue of its victims. But they constantly refused to rescue REALLY these victims :((<br /><br />10. "anonymous ignoramus means the railway lines. Actually it was Ben Gurion who was opposed to their bombing"----------<br />Where you read it? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-22607440093248147742012-09-14T00:50:20.648+01:002012-09-14T00:50:20.648+01:00But what this does explain is why Israel had as it...But what this does explain is why Israel had as its Prime Minister a man who openly advocated and indeed proposed a military pact between the Lehi Zionist terror group and Nazi Germany. <br /><br />I assume our anonymous Zionist condemns what Shamir did but one cannot be too sure!Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-47898374050904061802012-09-14T00:48:47.514+01:002012-09-14T00:48:47.514+01:00Or the anti-Zionist US historian Lenni Brenner'...Or the anti-Zionist US historian Lenni Brenner's 'Zionism in the Age of the Dictators' or better still Ben Hecht's 'Perfidy'. Hecht was a revisionist Zionist. Zvi interviewed Ben Gurion and Moshe Sharrett but Golda Meir refused to see him to answer the question as to why the Zionist movement did nothing in Palestine during the war. Ben Gurion in particular preferred to do nothing.<br /><br />E.g. at the Zionist Executive Committee of 15.10.42, when the Zionist Organisation was still suppressing news of the holocaust as revealed by the Riegner telegram from Switzerland (only released after 3 months on 21.11.42) Ben Gurion outlined Zionist’s most immediate tasks: i. Opposition to the British government White Paper ii. Establishment of a Jewish army iii. Establishment of Palestine as a Jewish Commonwealth after the war. Not a word was mentioned about the holocaust.<br /><br />Or Rabbi Abba Hillel Silver, President of the Zionist Organisation of America, who in 1946 said, at the 49th convention of the ZOA that 'I am happy that our movement has finally veered around to the point where we are all, or nearly all, talking about a Jewish state.. But I ask... are we again, in moments of desperation going to confuse Zionism with refugeeism which is likely to defeat Zionism... Zionism is not a refugee movement. It is not a product of the Second World War, nor of the first. Were there no displaced Jews in Europe... Zionism would still be an imperative necessity.”<br /><br />'Refugeeism' was a dismissive reference to those who placed saving Jews first above building the Jewish state.<br /><br />You say I don't condemn those who refused to rescue Jews during the holocaust but I'd be interested to know if you condemn the Zionist movement for obstructing the rescue of Jews and in the case of the leader of Hungarian Kastner, collaborating with Eichmann in order to save an elite at the expense of half a million Jews.<br /><br />As for Russia, it saved between 3/4 and 1.5 million Jews, unlike the pathetic efforts of the Zionist state in the making.<br /><br />Apparently I don't condemn those who refused 'to bomb roads to concentration camps, camp gas chambers and crematoriums.'<br /><br />I think our anonymous ignoramus means the railway lines. Actually it was Ben Gurion who was opposed to their bombing and the rest of the Zionist movement was lukewarm and only went through the motions of making such a call. Not once did the Zionists call a public demonstration or organise a campaign to demand their bombing.<br /><br />Instead the Zionists in America opposed even Roosevelt's belated decision to set up a War Refugee Board in 1944, which nonetheless managed to save about 400,000 Jews.<br /><br />Those who refused to 'warn the Hungarian Jews about the death camps' were as I said Kasztner and his so-called 'Rescue Committee' in Budapest. But it was worse because Kasztner and his cohorts actually encouraged ordinary Jews to board the deportation trains and they actively suppressd the Auschwitz Protocols, written by the Jewish escapees from Auschwitz Rudolph Vrba and Alfred Wetzler, which did indeed demonstrate that Auschwitz was an extermination camp.<br /><br />Even worse, the Jewish Agency after the war paid the expenses of Kasztner to go and testify at the Nuremburg trials in order to EXONERATE Nazi war criminals like Kurt Becher and Herman Krumey (Eichmann's deputy in Hungary). He even tried to save Dieter Wisliceny from being hanged by the Czechs - Wislicency was instrumental in the destruction of Slovakian Jewry - the first Jewish community to be destroyed in Auschwitz and Maidenek.<br /><br />So I certainly don't condemn Jews who fought against the Nazis, but they weren't the Zionists - they were the anti-Zionist Bund and dissident Zionists who had broken with Zionism.<br />Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-1028193244130009102012-09-14T00:48:17.411+01:002012-09-14T00:48:17.411+01:00Apparently I 'don't condemn Arabs who took...Apparently I 'don't condemn Arabs who took away "Palestine" (Country of Israel) from our ancestors.'<br /><br />Err no. I don't, since it never happened. Most Jews at the time of Herod had already left, as the soil could not support them. They were to be found in large numbers in the Hellenised cities of the Middle East like Alexandria. Most of those who remained converted to Christianity and then Islam, or at least the poor Jewish farmers did.<br /><br />So you're right, I don't condemn them. As Shlomo Sands pointed out, biologically the Palestinians are the true descendants of the ancient Hebrews, not the European settlers who were part of the Zionist movement.<br /><br />And I don't condemn 'the Arab thugs killing Jews in 1920, 1021, 1929, 1936-39.' I'm not sure where 1021 comes from, I assume its 1921!<br /><br />Strange that all these dates post-date the Zionist colonisation of Palestine and in particular the Balfour Declaration of 1917. methinks it's no coincidence. The reaction of the local Arabs was often blind fury at what was happening to them. Same happened in India and other British colonies, though I notice that Anonymous conflates 1936-9, the great Arab rebellion, which was primarily directed at the British with the dates he had chosen.<br /><br />I also note that the bomb attacks by the Irgun on Haifa market in 1938 and the subsequent killings of Arab civilians by both them and the Histadrut don't get a mention either.<br /><br />But for the record the 1929 attacks which killed about 70 Jews had no justification. They were unfortunately a savage medieval reaction to the activities of the Zionists. Unfortunately the Jews attacked were the old religiou and anti-Zionist Jews of Jerusalem, Safed, Hebron and Tiberias. They were also an own goal but the Zionist movement which was the cause of it bears the major responsibility.<br /><br />Apparently I 'don't condemn Englishmen who tolerated these murderers'. I condemn the British Empire for promising to give away a land which was not theirs to give away to a settler colonial movement called Zionism. It is irrelevant that British imperialism 'UNDERTOOK to create the Jewish national center in Palestine'. It had no right to give such an undertaking.<br /><br />Of course Palestine was another British colony - just as Canada, Australia and South Africa were and where the British faced innumerable settler rebellions e.g. the Boer Wars.<br /><br />Apparently I 'don't condemn the Aryan countries of Europe and America which amicably almost didn't start up to itself the Jewish refugees from Hitler.'<br /><br />Wading through the gibberish I think anon means that Jews in Europe were the victims of anti-Semitism and the West in particular the USA didn't accept Jewish refugees from Hitler.<br /><br />Well I certainly do condemn the USA for its behaviour towards the Jewish refugees. Pity that the leaders of US Zionism, Nahum Goldmann and Stephen Wise not only refused to oppose the State Department under the anti-Semitic Under Secretary Breckenbridge Long, but actually supported such restrictions. <br /><br />Zionism internationally OPPOSED the emigration of Jewish refugees to anywhere but Palestine and since Palestine couldn't have taken more than a few they effectively preferred they die where they were than see another country rescue them. Don't take my word for it. Read something for once in your life like Shabtai Zvi's 'post Ugandan Zionism on Trial'. <br />Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-11856072289053638052012-09-13T20:58:00.748+01:002012-09-13T20:58:00.748+01:00Tony, you don't condemn Arabs who took away &q...Tony, you don't condemn Arabs who took away "Palestine" (Country of Israel) from our ancestors. Don't condemn the Arab thugs killing Jews in 1920, 1021, 1929, 1936-39. <br />You don't condemn Englishmen who tolerated these murderers; which UNDERTOOK to create the Jewish national center in Palestine (instead of one more British colony :)), and meanly was broken by the obligations. <br />You don't condemn the Aryan countries of Europe and America which amicably almost didn't start up to itself the Jewish refugees from Hitler.<br /> You don't condemn the same Anglo-Saxons and Russian who persistently refused to rescue Jews during the Holocaust (for example, to bomb roads to concentration camps, camp gas chambers and crematoriums. Or to warn the Hungarian, French and other Jews about death camps.)<br />But you condemn Jews who fought against it! It is not a shame to you ;(Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-14068831293771267182012-07-06T12:19:41.602+01:002012-07-06T12:19:41.602+01:00It's no wonder that Anonymous choses to hide b...It's no wonder that Anonymous choses to hide behind anonymity. If I couldn't read I'd try and disguise it!<br /><br />There are 2 references to the Mufti, try using the search mechanism. E.g. 'At the same time that the mufti was asking for the Nazis' help, Avraham Stern, the Lechi commander, suggested establishing a Jewish alliance with Nazi Germany to end British rule in Palestine. He was guided by the same principle: my enemy's enemy is my friend'<br /><br />The point I was making was that independence leaders often did say the enemy of my colonial occupier is my friend. But for a Zionist leader to embrace Hitler was a different matter.<br /><br />Presumably Anonymous is keen to preserve his identity and who can blame him!<br /><br />the Mufti was a minor war criminal so there would have been no need to mention him at all except to assuage the more idiotic posters!Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-8958771124912446302012-07-06T08:32:30.803+01:002012-07-06T08:32:30.803+01:00nothing about haj amin husseni and adolf hitler wh...nothing about haj amin husseni and adolf hitler what a suprise you leftist always hide the pali-nazi link to justify killing jews in the name of anti racismAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-47407184663970038602012-07-02T18:31:17.746+01:002012-07-02T18:31:17.746+01:00Thanks, fixed!Thanks, fixed!Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-20956504928252264052012-07-02T17:18:43.205+01:002012-07-02T17:18:43.205+01:00Can you fix the typo in your headline (Israel;s). ...Can you fix the typo in your headline (Israel;s). This article is too important to be dismissed by people who are picky about things like that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-83706299295204567282012-07-02T10:01:59.565+01:002012-07-02T10:01:59.565+01:00Abe
Great comment, What a wide variety of superb ...Abe<br /><br />Great comment, What a wide variety of superb slogans .<br />in depth new arguments.<br />just fascinating "salat mix"<br />loved the never again...... powerfull, always makes it.....foxmannoreply@blogger.com