tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post7599709665819602696..comments2024-03-28T04:26:49.354+00:00Comments on Tony Greenstein's Blog: Holocaust Denial and anti-Semitism Have No Place in PSCTony Greensteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-68725624928167423492012-01-11T18:44:12.515+00:002012-01-11T18:44:12.515+00:00You are an idiot anonymous. Of course Udi is a he...You are an idiot anonymous. Of course Udi is a hero. He doesn't hate the country just the racists that you defend so avidly and the Zionist racism inherent in the state.<br /><br />It's quite reasonable to stay and fight and therefore he needs to work. You seem to have a little bit of a police state mentality, not surprising given you are a Zionist.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-44809482560507102852012-01-11T09:44:47.522+00:002012-01-11T09:44:47.522+00:00A Hero ????..... you are joking, getting his salar...A Hero ????..... you are joking, getting his salary from the government of the state he was convicted as a spy.....<br />Same as the mother of Atzmon, getting paid from the government, that she wants to be destroyed.....<br />same as Udi..... if he was a "hero" and had some basic personality morals, he would leave the country he hates so much and wanted to destroy.<br />Getting paid from the goverment today makes him the lowest persona, that's your view of a hero...... I an not surprised at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-45079664775529517692012-01-11T00:14:34.166+00:002012-01-11T00:14:34.166+00:00Can't see y I should give u a break. Either w...Can't see y I should give u a break. Either way I wasn't aware that the charges against Udi mentioned the Open University. Perhaps I'm missing something here?<br /><br />Either way the guy was a hero.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-19093511913316207782012-01-10T08:12:27.523+00:002012-01-10T08:12:27.523+00:00I don't think Udi Adiv worked to sabotage the ...I don't think Udi Adiv worked to sabotage the Open University! ...........<br /><br />Give me a break, even if I thought you are stupid......Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-66134147229709045162012-01-10T01:22:28.002+00:002012-01-10T01:22:28.002+00:00I was going to delete 'have some moral' bu...I was going to delete 'have some moral' but what he said cheered me up so much that I relented ..... <br /><br />'Fact: Dr. Udi Adiv is a lecturer at the Israeli "Open University" a distinguished university'<br /><br />I know<br /><br />'which receives almost its entire budget from the Zionist state'<br /><br />good<br /><br />'the very existence of which the traitor, Udi Adiv, worked to sabotage.'<br /><br />I don't think Udi Adiv worked to sabotage the Open University! He was an anti-Zionist and took the side of the opponents of the Israeli state. Seems some kinda hero to me, unlike all the Zionist sheep who come here.<br /><br />'Same as you , Low Hypocrite personalities, that look for the $$$'<br /><br />Nope. Not interested in dollars. Money is not my goal either. It's called justice, a word that has no meaning in Israel today.<br /><br />'You are making me sick.'<br /><br />It is always pleasing to know that one has caused a Zionist to be sick of his crimes.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-31137038270865209072012-01-09T16:45:12.325+00:002012-01-09T16:45:12.325+00:00The Catholics I'm referring to was a small gro...The Catholics I'm referring to was a small group of British 'religious antisemites' of the Far Right. Not sure whether they were followers of Monsignor Lefebvre though...Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-8946499430217062732012-01-09T14:50:02.800+00:002012-01-09T14:50:02.800+00:00Fact: Dr. Udi Adiv is a lecturer at the Israeli &q...Fact: Dr. Udi Adiv is a lecturer at the Israeli "Open University" a distinguished university, which receives almost its entire budget from the Zionist state, the very existence of which the traitor, Udi Adiv, worked to sabotage. <br />Same as you , Low Hypocrite personalities, that look for the $$$ and spit into the well....<br />You are making me sick.have some moral.....noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-4896245000508243622012-01-09T09:44:43.292+00:002012-01-09T09:44:43.292+00:00UHHHHH Udi Adiv, well I bet there is a mental pers...UHHHHH Udi Adiv, well I bet there is a mental personality definition for spy's....... <br />looks like all the hyaena's are gathering around competing in the a rally race "who is the biggest Palestinian supporter" meaning, that's the issue.<br />Low stupid infantile competition...... "the only truly anti-Zionist Jew around"<br />Udi at list was a Spy......<br /><br />what the hell are you.......Hamudinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-43057900737938926832012-01-09T02:40:34.894+00:002012-01-09T02:40:34.894+00:00Hi Udi
Interesting to know you were at Birkbeck w...Hi Udi<br /><br />Interesting to know you were at Birkbeck with Atzmon. It was where I did my MA too!<br /><br />Don't agree, and you provide no substantiation, to the assertion that he is similar to Shahak. Although I had certain political disagreements with Shahak, he was no anti-Semite nor would he have bought Atzmon's nonsense for a moment.<br /><br />But do explain why u disagreeTony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-91586604533375740242012-01-08T21:55:39.084+00:002012-01-08T21:55:39.084+00:00Tony Hi,
I fully and whole heartedly agree with ev...Tony Hi,<br />I fully and whole heartedly agree with everything you said about Atzmon. Truth to tell, there nothing new in his anti-Semetic arguments against Zionism and Israel. Shahak has already done it well before him. That being so, if Shahak, as a holocaust survivor, was a tragedy, Azmon is no more than farce. Unfortunetly some the British suppoter of the Palestinians seemed to embrace Azmon and even see him as the "the only truly anti-Zionist Jew around". On these kind of supporters I would say to the Palestinians that with such a friends tha don't need and enemies. As ex colleague of Azmon at Birkbeck college at the time I can assure you that intellecually, his book is nothing but a collection of nonsesns that hardly deserve an answer. <br />Udi Adivudi adivnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-20886308985957676842012-01-08T21:43:44.931+00:002012-01-08T21:43:44.931+00:00Evildoer, I've never liked this idea that expl...Evildoer, I've never liked this idea that exploring why there is racism means justifying it or blaming the victims of racism.<br /><br />Racism itself is irrational, being based on a the myth of race, but the reasons for racism are anything but irrational. They stem from e.g. economic crisis, nationalism that is defined by a racial belonging, scapegoatism etc.<br /><br />Coupled with this is of course the fact that Jews today are not an oppressed group. They are a fairly affluent section of the white population, professionals etc. Of courses that is not true of all Jews but a distinct Jewish section of the working class has disappeared. The old Jewish labour movement is no more. <br /><br />So when Dershowitz and his more stupid supporters like Hoffman accuse Palestinians of holocaust denial, one thing they don't do it as is as victims. Their use of the holocaust is totally cynical. <br /><br />I advise if anyone hasn't read it, that they should read Shabtai Zvi's 'Post Ugandan Zionism on Trial' which details how the Zionist Organisation, consistently and without fail, not only prioritised Zionist tasks over the rescue of Jewish refugees and deliberately counterposed building their satanic state ('redemption' they called it) to rescuing live Jews.<br /><br />Gert, I don't of course know who the Catholics are that you refer to, but if they are European one suspects that their reasons for denying the holocaust are because they are of the far-right, like the supporters of Monsieur Lefebre in France. <br /><br />But yes the point to make is that in principle there is no difference between holocaust and nakba denial with its rewriting of history to suggest that the colonists came first (in fact the South African Whites built a similar myth that Black tribes migrated downwards into an empty South Africa as a result of colonisation. <br /><br />What goes around comes around!Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-29336461443714584892012-01-08T15:04:22.659+00:002012-01-08T15:04:22.659+00:00”I don't think there is any doubt that the sma...<i>”I don't think there is any doubt that the small minority who have become holocaust deniers have done so primarily because they believe that if Israel's actions are legitimised by the holocaust, then all one has to do is to deny the holocaust. This is certainly the Ahmedinajad position. It is crass and stupid for reasons that I need not go into now, but it is a consequence of Zionist libels in the first place.”</i><br /><br />I think that is certainly true of a good dollop of Arab/Muslim deniers. I’ve also known HD being promulgated by a few Catholics (not necessarily committed anti-Zionists) too: the Holocoast as a fictional invention to justify Jooooos haggling their way back into the Holy Land.<br /><br />‘Fascinatingly’ this tactic is mirrored by Zionists, of which there are many who deny Palestinian rights to resistance, on the basis of the ludicrous claim that there was never a Palestinian presence in Palestine. No pre-Yishuv Palestinians? No ethnic cleansing and no justified Palestinian resistance and no justifiable claim to right of return... simples! Spirit away the nasty Arabs and all becomes clear! See twits al la Alderman or Richard ‘I’m not a Zionist’ Millett and their court attendants.Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-18461648177359820672012-01-08T07:54:26.516+00:002012-01-08T07:54:26.516+00:00Tony, I think one of your best points in this disc...Tony, I think one of your best points in this discussion was reminding Anthony that exploring the causal link between Zionist action and HD/antisemitism is not "blaming the victims" because the Zionists ideologues who do the damage, almost all well heeled aparatchiks and professionals, are not the victims. They are the aiders and abetters of heinous crimes. <br /><br />Some people ARE victims of antisemitism. Ilan Halimi, for example, was a victim of antisemitism. Nobody sane blamed Halimi for contributing to the rise of antisemitism. On the other hand, reading three lines of Dershowitz can cause anybody to fantasize about graphic violence.Evildoerhttp://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-38116379555704563452012-01-08T04:38:07.920+00:002012-01-08T04:38:07.920+00:00Stephen, I agree that much of the 'anti-Semiti...Stephen, I agree that much of the 'anti-Semitism' allegations derive from the insecurity of Israel's defenders. It is the only other explanation for what is being said, other than accepting all those myths you were brought up with were exactly that - myths.<br /><br />So yes, some of us are 'monstered'. I recently had a quick chat with an (unnamed) ex-editor of Searchlight who remarked how ironic it was that I was one of the leading lights in the fight against Atzmon given the Union of Jewish Students attempts to get me banned for anti-Semitism some years ago. But of course it is not at all strange. The campaign of zionists against 'anti-Semitism' has nothing to do with what most people understand by the term - it is the 'new anti-Semitism' designed to confuse those with little understanding of the original variety.<br /><br />As for Anthony, he is again wrong. I haven't returned to my original position! I simply continue to hold to it. If something is anti-Semitic it stands or falls on its own merits. You cannot say it is 'anti-Semitic' to oppose the colonisation of land in Israel or the torture and imprisonment of Palestinian children because one hasn't taken up other issues of human rights and other abuses in other areas of the world. This is the Apartheid (SA) justification and is merely a pretext.<br /><br />The equation of aZ as aS is not a side issue. It is fundamental to the smearing of people as anti-Semites who are no such thing. Anthony fails to understand or even recognise that this is a problem. And then he asks how people who are anti-racist can become holocaust deniers as a result.<br /><br />I don't think there is any doubt that the small minority who have become holocaust deniers have done so primarily because they believe that if Israel's actions are legitimised by the holocaust, then all one has to do is to deny the holocaust. This is certainly the Ahmedinajad position. It is crass and stupid for reasons that I need not go into now, but it is a consequence of Zionist libels in the first place.<br /><br />So yes, one should make a distinction. There are those whose HD arose from their wish to rehabilitate the Nazi era, i.e. today's fascists. Hence HD arose from neo-Nazi groups. There are those who, often at an ideological level linking to these groups through the Institute of Historical Review, use their so-called research for their own purposes which are not fascist.<br /><br />E.g. although I have no doubt that the person expelled from Brighton PSC, Frances Clarke Lowes came to believe in HD and was anti-Semitic, I have no reason to believe he is a fascist.<br /><br />Likewise the reaction of many Arabs and those in the third world to such use of the holocaust is to deny it rather than to look further. In fact Palestinians used to be very good in delving into the subject and Lenni Brenner's book and things I wrote were well received, i.e. that the Zionist record during the holocaust was one of collaboration and prioritisation of the state over and above rescue. There is less of that today.<br /><br />But if Anthony doesn't think that the association of Israel's crimes with all Jews has anything to do with helping create anti-Semitism, or that labelling as racists people who are anti-racist doesn't have any effect then he really is living in cloud cuckoo land.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-91197451987051798642012-01-07T22:09:17.642+00:002012-01-07T22:09:17.642+00:00This reminds me of the old joke about the medieval...This reminds me of the old joke about the medieval peasant who was perplexed to be told by one priest that it was a sin for him to have sex with his wife during Lent - only to be told by another priest that it was a sin for him not to.<br /><br />If you have a certain view of Israel as inherently a moral undertaking which you have wired into your sense of identity, then it is indeed distressing to hear people say 'nasty things' about Israel. There can only be two explanations for this distressing discovery. <br /><br />Either these 'nasty things' are actually true, in which case the view of Israel on which you have been brought up is false. The implications of this are too awful to contemplate.<br /><br />But if these 'nasty things' are untrue, then people are going around telling lies about Israel. Why ever should they want to do that?<br /><br />Well is it a concidence that Israel is the world's only Jewish state...?<br /><br />The 'antisemitism' smear is thus often not so much a deliberate stratagem to discredit Israel's critics, but a defensive reaction against the awful sinking feeling you get when you realise that the myths you have been raised on are just so much bullshit. Much easier to retreat into the comfort zone by assuming people must be saying these awful things about Israel because they hate Jews.<br /><br />Much 'Hasbara' though not necessarily most of it, is aimed at keeping up the spirits of fearful Zionists, and warding off the awful doubts they must get in the middle of the night, or when they read newspaper accounts of the latest Israeli atrocities.<br /><br />'Don't worry dear, they're only saying it because they're antisemites'.<br /><br />Hence also the nasty Zionist tactic of 'monstering' critics by personal hatchet jobs rather than answer their arguments. Victims have ranged from Norman Finkelstein [most recently in a bizarre post on Harry’s Place by someone who actually boasted that he had never read any of NF’s work] to Avi Shlaim [smeared by Michael Ezra as ‘keeping company with Holocaust deniers’]. <br /><br />Another classic example is Ben White, who is routinely smeared in Zionist blogs as an ‘antisemite’ for saying that he is not himself antisemitic but he can understand why some people are. Anyone who sees the remark in comtext [here: http://www.counterpunch.org/2002/06/18/is-it-possible-to-understand-the-rise-in-anti-semitism/]<br />will see what a disgusting and unprincipled smear it is. But Ben White is one of those who have documented in irrefutable detail the apartheid-like nature of Israeli society. How much easier to smear than to confront his case - and how much more reassuring.<br /><br />[and of course Tony you have had a good share of monstering yourself].stephen marksnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-4586944751730668542012-01-07T19:32:31.677+00:002012-01-07T19:32:31.677+00:00Tony, I think we must have reached the end of this...Tony, I think we must have reached the end of this discussion as you've returned to reiterating your original position and moving on to a side issue of whether it is correct or not to equate AZ with AS.<br /><br />You also fail to explain how someone goes from being anti-racist to denying the Holocaust simply by being told they are anti-Semitic when they know they're not.<br /><br />I think we've gone as far as we're likely to without going round in circles.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18042333097298473210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-43535632704668300602012-01-07T18:39:22.870+00:002012-01-07T18:39:22.870+00:00The fallacy with Anthony and the Zionist assertion...The fallacy with Anthony and the Zionist assertion that aZ=aS is that they can only describe something as anti-Semitic by reference to something else, i.e. a comparison or alleged non-comparison with other oppressive regimes.<br /><br />So what is deemed anti-Semitic is relative and not dependent on what is/isn't said/written but on account of an alleged concentration on Israe. I suspect that the Jews of Kishinev and Warsaw could only wish that what is termed 'new anti-Semitism' had visited them too rather than the genuine article.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-28415775184810138182012-01-07T14:58:51.743+00:002012-01-07T14:58:51.743+00:00In any case where Anthony claims ‘excessive’, ‘sin...In any case where Anthony claims ‘excessive’, ‘singling out’ criticism of Israel is perceived as antisemitic, that perception stems from equating Israel/Zionism with Jews/Zionism too. <br /><br />Criticism of Israel/Zionism can clearly be antisemitic and these cases are quite easy to spot: attributing Israel’s behaviour to innate ‘Jewishness’ (as does Atzmon and it seems to me also Eisen) is the most important tell tale.<br /><br />Ironically the decent, non-racist, critic of Israel/Zionism who goes out of his way to not equate Jews/Judaism with Israel/Zionism gets told that <i>'in anti-Zionism, Zionism stands for Jews’</i>! Damned if you do, damned if you don’t!Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-73457745913805665972012-01-06T18:24:59.662+00:002012-01-06T18:24:59.662+00:00Gert
thanks. U put it better than me. What kind...Gert<br /><br />thanks. U put it better than me. What kind of person uses a term repeatedly and when asked to define his understanding of it replies it's an unpleasant manifestation of Jewish activism. And of course he's not anti-Semitic and I've just had my 21st birthday again!<br /><br />Anthony, no the reason for people crying 'anti-Semite' when Israel is criticised is not because Israel is being singled out. There was a time when fascists used 'Jew' and 'Zionist' interchangeably, much like Zionists in fact, and they still do. So I accept some people reacted to that.<br /><br />But it had nothing to do with Israel being singled out, that is usually in an instant response and as Hoffman and many others say, aZ=aS. The reason is more complicated which is that many Jews define their identity as Jews on the basis of Israel. Israel/Zionism is the new Jewish identity for many. <br /><br />Problem is that this is not much of an identity which is why secular Jews are fleeing the nest as quickly as they can, which is one reason among others why the Orthodox are growing as a % of the Jewish population.<br /><br />That is the reason why there is this cry and now the qualifications for being appointed Chief Rabbi include being an advocate for Israel.<br /><br />In any case I would be hard put to it to find another western or indeed any state whose rabbis or priests issue injunctions forbidding the renting of flats or homes to non-Jews as per the Chief Rabbi of Safed. Or where non-Jews cannot board or ride buses for settlers. Was the campaign over Rosa Parks racist? Most sensible poeple would say that the segregationists were the racists but racists do indeed use that retort.<br /><br />The BNP are always saying that what they are really about is defence of the poor beleagured white British. Your 'explanation' doesn't hold waterTony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-26699157421512425792012-01-06T15:33:38.552+00:002012-01-06T15:33:38.552+00:00Paul:
”I don't answer your questions Tony bec...Paul:<br /><br /><i>”I don't answer your questions Tony because they're not designed to seek information but simply to confuse and thereby trap your opponent. This is in itself a mark of your very unpleasant type of Jewish activism.”</i><br /><br />Childish too. And I don’t see in TG’s argumentation anything that can be described as ‘very unpleasant type of Jewish activism’, just commons sense, frankly. Not that it proves much but I agree with almost all of it and I’m not Jewish. So much for your ‘Jewish activism’ claim.<br /><br />Holocaust deniers like you often praise themselves for their ‘critical thinking’ but what qualifies as such when it results in deeply anti-empirical positions, not far removed from the Flat Earth Society? Some historical events have been proved beyond reasonable doubt and certainly that motley crew of agenda driven ‘revisionists’ genre Irving, Faurisson, Zundel, CODOH, Friedrich Paul Berg, Bradley Smith et al aren’t going to unearth anything earth shattering re. the Holocaust.<br /><br />You wrote elsewhere:<br /><br /><i>”Although I stopped short of coming out in definite agreement with them [the ‘holohoax’ nutters], I did (and do) acknowledge that I found their case compelling.”</i><br /><br />If you found their case ‘compelling’ I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Bargain price, I promise!Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-5126587888864942922012-01-06T15:07:45.494+00:002012-01-06T15:07:45.494+00:00Tony, I get it just fine. But your comments are ta...Tony, I get it just fine. But your comments are tangential to the debate we are having. I have shown that the reason why some people are so quick to shout anti-Semitism when Israel is criticised is because they perceive that criticism to be unique to Israel and not warranted by Israel's actions. Whether they are right or not is completely irrelevant.<br /><br />Your entire argument relies on the claim that when an anti-Israel activist is called anti-Semitic it is because the person doing the calling believes that Zionism=Judaism. I have shown that this is not true. That they are wrong to label anti-Israel people as anti-Semitic is of no consequence.<br /><br />But let's leave that to one side for now. What do you say to the fact that your position is that previously anti-racists become anti-Semitic by being called anti-Semitic for their anti-Israel activism? How does someone start denying the Holocaust or believing in a world Jewish conspiracy because they are wrongly accused of anti-Semitism?<br /><br />Your position is untenable.<br /><br />Have a good Shabbos.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18042333097298473210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-84238774114542701732012-01-06T14:33:37.404+00:002012-01-06T14:33:37.404+00:00Peeps wants the exact quote of Atzmon. Well here ...Peeps wants the exact quote of Atzmon. Well here it is and it led to anti-Zionist activist and holocaust survivor, Hajo Meyer pulling out of the Freiburg conference. It's from 'Truth, History & Integrity'<br /><br />'If, for instance, the Nazis wanted the Jews out of their Reich (Judenrein - free of Jews), or even dead, as the Zionist narrative insists, how come they marched hundreds of thousands of them back into the Reich at the end of the war?... <br /><br />if the Nazis ran a death factory in Auschwitz-Birkenau, why would the Jewish prisoners join them at the end of the war? Why didn’t the Jews wait for their Red liberators?'<br /><br />Pretty clear Peeps. Sure u didn't know Shamir when you met him, but what you did do was to later support him and Atzmon and indeed compare the criticisms of atzmon to the 'demonisation' of Shamir.<br /><br />Yes anti-fascists 'demonise' fascists if you like. So what you really came here for was latter day absolution but I cannot forgive you your support for an out and out racist if you continue to defend him. In so far as you hang around the direct action movement/IM then you sully it by your association. <br /><br />If you support a racist, chances are you are one and in your case you went to extreme lengths to support him and Shamir.<br /><br />Eisen is likewise a disturbed soul. He accuses me of being a Jewish 'ethnic' activist. He asks me questions which I, having nothing to fear, answer. I then ask him one. What do u mean by Jewish ethnicity?<br /><br />Simple reason since Eisen used the term, presumably he understands what he was saying? Or perhaps not or perhaps it is because it is a code word for race and much else. In any case I don't accept Jews are an ethnic minority.<br /><br />But what does he say? He doesn't answer my questions 'because they're not designed to seek information but simply to confuse and thereby trap your opponent.'<br /><br />Presumably Eisen finds the truth very confusing!! And in asking your opponent what he means why the language he uses, 'This is in itself a mark of your very unpleasant type of Jewish activism.'<br /><br />So you see. Asking what someone means by the terms they use is itself an example of an unpleasant Jewish activism. Pity the poor professor trying to find out what his/her students mean by the language they use. What an absurd and pompous/self-righteous fool you are Paul. And worse, when push comes to shove, you actually have nothing to say to back up your assertions.' <br /><br />Firstly since Israel is not synonymous with being Jewish, hence why anti-Zionism isn't equal to anti-Semitism, why should it be? There could be many reasons.<br /><br />Secondly I don't know who these 'democracies' are. The USA which has the thinnest of skins over its very undemocratic state? I also pointed out that there was a massive anti-war campaign against US invasions of Iraq/Afghanistan. So it isn't even true.<br /><br />This apologia Anthony was the excuse defenders of Apartheid (S Africa) used. It is the last defence of the indefensible. Why don't you target another criminal state and its actions. There may be many reasons, assuming what you say is true, which it isn't. WHy don't people attack China more over Tibet? Possibly because the campaign doesn't have such resonance.<br /><br />People choose what they become involved in. But if you make assertions of 'anti-Semitism' then you need to prove them and you have entirely failed to do so.<br /><br />The fact is that Israel has always professed that it acts to the highest democratic standards and is found wanting. Further the colonisation of Palestine is ongoing unlike the former colonisation of the USA. Hence why it is a live issue and when the holocaust is used to justify such actions then people become even more enraged at what is taking place.<br /><br />That you don't apparently get it Anthony is, I think, a convenient ploy.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-73715027603044043692012-01-06T09:23:50.402+00:002012-01-06T09:23:50.402+00:00"So stop blustering FTP and admit you got it ..."So stop blustering FTP and admit you got it badly wrong and that someone who rights that if the Jews ‘chose’ the death marches (which they didn’t) that proves there was no holocaust, is either certifiably mad, a racist or both."<br /><br />I presume 'rights' means 'writes'.<br /><br />You'd have to show me the exact quote(s) where Atzmon says there was no holocaust - I am certain I have seen him say the exact opposite on numerous occasions. I don't believe that history is truth written in stone on any matter whatsoever, and therefore I don't find Atzmon's critiques of the narrative nearly as shocking as you do. How critiquing a narrative makes one racist also escapes me, but as you haven't been able to back up your claim of my racism, I certainly don't trust your claims about anyone else's racism either. <br /><br />As to Shamir, you've quoted exactly what I said - it was an accurate statement based on what I knew at the time. I have no recollection of ever having spoken about him in any other context nor at any other other time. And I won't jump through your hoops any more than I'll jump through the cops hoops.<br /><br />The thing is this Tony, I don't trust any claim you make - you misrepresent me all the time and if you can get me so wrong, why would I trust you to interpret any other matter?<br /><br /><br />You publicly branded me an anti-semite and you have nothing to back it up except for the fact that I find your interpretation of Atzmon to be implausible, biased and obtuse, and I read him differently, as do some others, even in the face of nasty vitriolic campaigns.<br /><br />It is clear that any Palestine solidarity activist who refuses to be bullied and brow-beaten into seeing things your way is going to be smeared and attacked, and I reckon that makes you one of the most divisive and destructive people in the 'solidarity' movement.<br /><br />Until you remove that claim about my 'anti-smeitism' and apologise I have nothing more to say to youftpnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-54300316920123430612012-01-06T08:28:00.106+00:002012-01-06T08:28:00.106+00:00I don't answer your questions Tony because the...I don't answer your questions Tony because they're not designed to seek information but simply to confuse and thereby trap your opponent. This is in itself a mark of your very unpleasant type of Jewish activism.<br /><br />From your answers to my questions you seem to be motivated by much the same as the average ('anti-Zionist')member of JFJFP.<br /><br />So Mazel-tov! Welcome home!Paul Eisenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13651998644736875447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-12573689212408663772012-01-06T07:39:49.393+00:002012-01-06T07:39:49.393+00:00Tony, it's difficult to decide whether you are...Tony, it's difficult to decide whether you are being deliberately obtuse so as to defend your position or whether you are simply unable to comprehend simple things.<br /><br />You say:<br />"Let us just suppose that Israel is being singled out, maybe because it calls itself the only democracy in the Middle East. Just as European states are held to higher standards than those in the third world. Even if this were true, why should it be anti-Semitic? Only if Israel and Jews are synonymous!!"<br /><br />But why is it so hard for you to understand that if someone perceives that Israel is being singled out over and above all other countries, even democracies, in similar situations - then he might attribute the motivation behind those unique attacks as being anti-Semitism.<br /><br />This is so blindingly simple a concept that it is amazing that you apparently find it hard to grasp.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18042333097298473210noreply@blogger.com