tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post7217008796832529377..comments2024-03-19T03:08:41.935+00:00Comments on Tony Greenstein's Blog: Big Questions – Gerald Scarfe's Cartoon and 'anti-Semitism'Tony Greensteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-49738215453789897152013-08-01T08:55:49.906+01:002013-08-01T08:55:49.906+01:00TV viewing linked to antisocial behaviors in kids....TV viewing linked to <a href="http://www.gofastek.com/fhs/antisocial/" rel="nofollow">antisocial</a> behaviors in kids. Click www.gofastek.com for more information.<br /><br />Cindy<br />www.gofastek.comCindyhttp://www.gofastek.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-33892245928210202902013-02-08T16:37:05.488+00:002013-02-08T16:37:05.488+00:00What would not be an impartial source to that anon...What would not be an impartial source to that anonymous who doth protest too much commentator? Anything zionist propaganda no doubt which peddles preposterous propaganda. No civilized human being can look into their heart with a clear conscience and support what the zionists are doing in Palestine and have been doing for over 6 decades now. How long does it think this despicable charade can go on unchallenged? By the way i am anon because when i attempt to sign in via wordpress all my text disappears so find this easiest to send comments this way. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-60401210703100524692013-02-08T13:26:00.198+00:002013-02-08T13:26:00.198+00:00Torat HaMelech, a book of genocide which you attem...Torat HaMelech, a book of genocide which you attempt to justify, yes indeed wraps its prescriptions in the saving of (Jewish) life. It is therefore permited to murder literally millions if necessary. Your idea that it is about preventing attacks on the coloniser is no different from the Nazi justification of killing Jewish children. They will grow up to harm us. Or Nazi wiping out of civilians. What does Torat HaMelech say:<br /><br />““Non-Jews are “uncompassionate by nature” and should be killed in order to “curb their evil inclinations.” “If we kill a gentile who has has violated one of the seven commandments… there is nothing wrong with the murder”http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2010/11/rabbi-schochet-of-racist-lubavitch-big.html <br /><br />And then you say 'Shapira was not prosecuted. Correct. Because Israel allows freedom of speech. Just as secular and religious Israeli academics are allowed to speak out without fear of imprisonment.'<br /><br />Sheikh Raed Salah was prosecuted for this ideas and imprisoned. Israel is in a permanent state of emergency. It can lift anyone who is a threat to that order. BUT it only lifts peacemakers, people who put their bodes in the way of bulldozers, human rights activists, those who expose their plots to assassinate civilians (the 2 Ha'aretz journalists). It has unlimited powers of detention without trial. One person was locked up for 10 years without any one being informed during the cold war for espionage.<br /><br /><br />So your sophistry about 'free speech means free speech for Jewish Nazis. A Palestinian who came out with the same would be inside a long time and you know it. And advocating the murder of a whole people or group of people isn't free speech it's an incitement to murder. But since you only use for the holocaust for propaganda purjavascript:void(0)poses you wouldn't understand that.<br />Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-13116413555004159962013-02-08T13:25:49.739+00:002013-02-08T13:25:49.739+00:00No I'm not writing a Ph D thesis. There is no...No I'm not writing a Ph D thesis. There is no standard footnoting. What I'm writing are articles for a blog and one theme has been the growing, eliminationist (to use your friend Daniel Goldhagen's phrase) anti-Arab racism, especially amongst the Orthodox right.<br /><br />There is no comparison between the Tanya, Talmud and Das Kapital. One is based on, as you say mystificism, faith, prejudice, tall-tales, a distorted image of reality, whereas Das Kapital is based on scientific and mathematical reasoning and analysis.<br /><br />You may disagree with the latter but that's the terrain it is based on.<br /><br />So there is absolutely no need to have a great understanding of these religious books, anymore than it is essential to delve into the inner logic and understanding of Houston Stewart Chamberlain's anti-Semitic tome the Foundations of the 19th Century.<br /><br />All the religious books in the world add nothing to the sum of human knowledge, other than an image of how society might have been as refracted through the writings of elders and scribes.<br /><br />Your suggestion of being akin to Hitlerian philosophers taking a line from the Talmud to drum up hatred of Jews is absurd and an example of the narrow tram lines of your own thought. Hitler had no philosophers nor did he need them. he was a political ideologue and activist.<br /><br />I don't at all wish Jews to be persecuted because of the Talmud but for the Zionists to be castigated because they use the Talmud's injunctions against non-jews to perpetuate the murder and dispossession of today's Palestinians. As someone devoid of all understanding of others you turn this on yourself and being Jewish - your sufferings count, although they are zero, but those you inflict your talmudic injunctions upon are beyond your ken.<br /><br />It is fortunate that many non-Jews in Europe at the time of Hitler extended a hand of friendship to and hid so many Jews. If they had been Israelis then they would have behaved like the Volksdeutsche - German settlers or Germans living outside Germany.<br /><br />Yes it's true that I 'You negate to mention the fact that the national religious rabbinic leadership in general distanced themselves from this text and criticised it on Jewish jurisprudential grounds' perhaps because that was because so many of them supported the book! Former chief rabbis and their progeny. Hundreds of rabbis signed a letter in support.<br /><br />But other rabbis took fright. Not at the principle but the tactics employed. 'They should not be saying this openly' was the commonest reaction, it will incur the wrath of America. I believe even the Nazi Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef, who has called for the 'annihilation' of the Arabs, took this line. Not out of any moral repugnance but narrow tactical calculation of whether it is good for Jews.<br />Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-75207802261687552882013-02-08T11:12:33.545+00:002013-02-08T11:12:33.545+00:00You see Tony, here you fall down again. You say th...You see Tony, here you fall down again. You say that you are not writing a PhD thesis. That's blindingly obvious. It is totally relevant that you only cite secondary sources. The reason for this is that you are seeking to malign an entire movement based on excerpts that you read on websites. The Tanya is a complex opus that is focused upon mysticism. When you seek to translate such concepts into practical realities it is intellectually dishonest to do so without a deep understanding of the source material. For example I could say that socialism is idiotic, and have a one paragraph citation of Das Kapital. But that would be silly. Not to mention the fact that it is a text where understanding of the language is absolutely crucial.<br /><br />Further, you use this myopic analysis to tell us where Rabbi Shochet's views come from. This is an example, quite frankly of Hitlerian philosopher's taking a line from the Talmud when they don't really understand it and using it to drum up hatred of Jews. It seems that your approach to academic critique is somewhat similar.<br /><br />Secondly, I can think of much more lucid criticisms of Torat HaMelech than yours. You negate to mention the fact that the national religious rabbinic leadership in general distanced themselves from this text and criticised it on Jewish jurisprudential grounds. But, to take comparisons to public customary international law - the right of self-defence outlined in Art 52 UN Charter must be designed to achieve a legitimate aim. You cited Rabbi Shmuel Eliayahu stating "whatever it takes to make them stop". And you yourself admit that this was "to deter rocket fire" which you know was directed against civilians. (By the way I see your source as electronicintifada...not exactly an impartial source).<br /><br />Now though this is distasteful, public international law does permit military action which bears a risk to the lives of civilians. And certainly in public international law as displayed by the decision of the International Court of Justice in the case of US vs Nicaragua the court's opinion was (against the US) that where civilians do lend material support to combatants they lose their status as non-combatants.<br /><br />Shapira was not prosecuted. Correct. Because Israel allows freedom of speech. Just as secular and religious Israeli academics are allowed to speak out without fear of imprisonment. Just like the Wakf of Jerusalem is allowed to compare Jews to pigs and monkeys without being arrested. Shapira was not prosecuted because Israel's attorney-general did not a legal basis to do so. Israel's legal system is certainly not afraid to prosecute Orthodox rabbis!<br /><br />You're correct you did not sound polished, you sounded stale.<br /><br />You say you weren't about to allow Rabbi Shochet to set the terms of debate, but that was the subject of the debate. The entire question was about the cartoon. You know what? You can be anti-Israel and agree that the cartoon was anti-Semitic. Or is that dichotomy to complex for you to perceive?<br /><br />I wasn't making a comment as to economics. What I was saying is that you are not valued by fora that put pride of place on rigorous analysis. Instead you vomit prejudicial diatribe or as you call it "speaking from the heart." Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-47239612256666282862013-02-07T19:18:46.964+00:002013-02-07T19:18:46.964+00:006. I suggest you read the reports of Torat Hamele...6. I suggest you read the reports of Torat Hamelech instead of trying to defend it. That one excerpt about killing children is all that is required to demonstrate this is a book of genocide. But it isn't alone. It's not an isolated instance, hence why hundreds of rabbis, Lubavitch and non-Lubavitch spoke out in support of Shapira and Torat HaMelech. Indeed criticism was a threat to the rabbis freedom of speech and their ability to undertake 'academic study' of the Torah. No you couldn't make it up.<br /><br />It was not disputed in Israel that the book advocated murder of non-Jews. Shapira was even arrested after a lot of pressure was applied. Of course he wasn't prosecuted because he was an Orthodox Rabbi. If he'd been an Imam he'd be behind bars for a very long time.<br /><br />Of course I could have quoted the non-Lubavitch son of a former Sephardic chief rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu Chief Rabbi of Safed who stated that '<br /> In 2007, Eliyahu advocated mass slaughter of Palestinians in order to deter rocket fire from Gaza, while defending a ruling by his late father that Israel was permitted to indiscriminately kill civilians. “If they don’t stop after we kill 100, then we must kill a thousand,” Shmuel Eliyahu advised, adding, “And if they do not stop after 1,000 then we must kill 10,000. If they still don’t stop we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to make them stop.” http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/rabbi-who-called-slaughter-million-palestinians-supervise-israels-red-cross<br /><br />Or one could comment on the antics of those such as the Military Chief Rabbi, Brigardier General Ronzki, who advises that cruelty can be a good attribute.<br /><br />or just that one excerpt? And then you admit that many rabbis endorsed it. You can't seem to keep your train of thought.<br /><br />It's a matter of opinion as to whether Shochet lost his cool. He may have sounded more polished, but I spoke from the heart - hence the difference in impact.<br /><br />You say that 'Instead of addressing the cartoon, you discussed occupation etc. Because it's your only line.'<br /><br />Clearly you are thick as well as stupid. The whole point about the cartoon was that the attack on it as 'anti-Semitic' was a way of trying to neutralise its message. I wasn't prepared to have the terms of the debate set by Shochet and that was the point I made at the beginning. The controversy was contrived and the real issue was the oppression of the Palestinians.<br /><br />Of course, as a religious Zionist you don't agree and indeed found me 'irritating'. Good, that means my message hit home.<br /><br />I've spoken at many 'prestigious' and non-prestigious places. I'm not a snob. I speak to whoever listens, however rich or poor.<br /><br />It would seem that you just can't help displaying your prejudices.<br />Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-30131266948773818712013-02-07T19:18:32.787+00:002013-02-07T19:18:32.787+00:00In response to my criticisms of Lubavitch and whet...In response to my criticisms of Lubavitch and whether I was being unfair to them:<br /><br />1. In the The Goy Within and Without http://tinyurl.com/bxm8f9a Chaim Gershon states that<br /><br />'The Alter Rebbe's Tanya explains in more technical and expanded manner that there takes place an internal war between a person's G-dly soul and animal soul, which are respectively the struggle between his good and evil inclinations, between his Yetzer HaTov and Yetzer Hara. The previous Lubavitcher Rebbe Yosef Yitzhak explains [in a letter quoted in the back of his edition of Sefer Tehillim] that a person's animal soul and evil inclination are non-Jewish; in other words, as other footnotes therein reference, every person has to wage a daily war with his goy residing in a person's olam katan, aka his personal psyche (literally “small world”) to serve HaShem properly.' <br /><br />The only question to my mind is whether that is true or not. Given that similar anti-Gentile dictums and statements appear in the Talmud, as Israel Shahk documented in Jewish Fundamentalism and the debate in places like the Jewish Chronicle about e.g. whether it is permitted to save a non-Jews life on the sabbath, which was where Shahak came in, I'm not sure what point you are making unless you are trying to deny this or pretend that the issuance of a separate bookled of Dispensations from the Talmud, in order not to antagonise goyim with these utterances is not true?<br /><br />It is of no consequence whether I am quoting secondary sources since I'm not writing a Ph. D thesis, where 2ry sources are also quite acceptable.<br /><br />2. You say it is disingenuous to say that because Rabbi Shochet has links to Lubavitch, his opinions are not worth anything. I'm not aware I have said his opinions are not worth anything. I've merely explained where his opinions come from. If it is a smear to hold that he is a member of a religious sect whose other members advocate Nazi-style measures against non-Jews, so be it.<br /><br />3. I haven't said that Lubavitch is pro-child abuse. What I have said is that it has been party to covering it up, it seeks to minimise it, a prominent Lubavitch rabbi compares it to diarrhea and encourages a child not to report it. Do you have nothing to say about this? Manis Friedman says this on the tape. Have u listened to it?<br /><br />4. I didn't say Rabbi Padwa was Lubavitch. I don't think Lubavitch is unique in this but it is an organised sect which is very powerful within Jewish Orthodoxy.<br /><br />5. Torat HaMelech. You say that the author, Yitzhak Shapira, 'is not necessarily Lubavitch.' These are weasel words. He is a member of Lubavitch and has never denied reports to that effect. You ask if I've read Torat HaMelech. No I haven't. For many years I hadn't read Mein Kampf but I took it on trust that it was not the most sympathetic book to Jews that had been written. This reminds me of the old argument that Nazi Germany and Apartheid South Africa weren't that bad, they were just maligned and you should go there first. Well in an age of mass communications I think we can take some things as read.<br /><br />It is interesting that Shapira and the other gaggle of racist Rabbis did not deny what was said. Instead they justified it.<br />Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-31932931046407598372013-02-07T18:42:55.064+00:002013-02-07T18:42:55.064+00:00Well Jay is entitled to his opinion, not that it r...Well Jay is entitled to his opinion, not that it really matters. Nearly everyone who has contacted me differs from what he is saying including my local newsagent, a right reactionary, who said that I'd 'stuffed that Rabbi' and that he was only crying anti-Semitism to intimidate people.<br /><br />Guess u can't please all of the people all of the time. There were plenty of other points I could have made but that was in a discussion lasting less than 20 minutes! The Zionists also had more people in the audience but the audience itself was far more sympathetic to what I said, as judged by their applause and people coming up to me afterwards.<br /><br />There was one major point to get across and that this was a contrived allegation of anti-Semitism in order to deter criticism of Israel. That I achieved.<br /><br />If you look the programme on i-pod it is quite clear that Schochet was in the grip of controlled anger throughout at not getting his point across.<br /><br />Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-85192457348065604632013-02-07T17:56:59.539+00:002013-02-07T17:56:59.539+00:00I completely disagree with Jay as that so called h...I completely disagree with Jay as that so called holy man acted like the typical arrogant zio thug. Even that priest came up against their not to be reasoned with antisocial behavior and bit his tongue - as a holy man should. He was just vile and I consider myself very diplomatic but with contrary to all me types such as the zionists I doubt i could have kept cool - they seem to have a knack of getting under your skin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-67124260935256793872013-02-07T17:32:02.784+00:002013-02-07T17:32:02.784+00:00Tony,
What you say is bizarre. Firstly let me say...Tony, <br />What you say is bizarre. Firstly let me say I am in no way Lubavitch, or ultra-orthodox. I am however fluent in Hebrew and have had a Talmudic education. Firstly you display your own educational shortcomings. Instead of actually quoting the Tanya you rely entirely on secondary sources, like what FailedMessiah says about the Tanya, or what FailedMessiah heard someone else say. That is not academic or a valid proof of your argument. <br /><br />Secondly, it is disingenuous to say because Rabbi Shochet has links to Lubavitch, his opinions are not worth anything. Can't you defeat his arguments on their merit rather than engaging in a smear campaign.<br /><br />Thirdly, you seek to discredit him by saying Lubavitch is pro-child abuse. Are you mad? You take one person, who is not a representative of Lubavitch, on an 8 minute video and use this as proof? And then you point to Rabbi Padwa who also is not Lubavitch? To say that the first video actually and substantively compares child abuse to dysentery is idiotic.<br /><br />Thirdly: Torat HaMelech. The author is not necessarily Lubavitch. Have you read Torat HaMelech or just that one excerpt? And then you admit that many rabbis endorsed it. You can't seem to keep your train of thought.<br /><br />You were on TV and repeat the same thing you always do. Nothing new. I think it is fair to say that Rabbi Shochet did not lose his cool. He is a much better speaker than you are. He sounds more polished, reasonable and coherent. You come across as quite irrelevant, incoherent and quite irritating to listen to. Instead of addressing the cartoon, you discussed occupation etc. Because it's your only line.<br /><br />You got rinsed. There is a reason you don't get asked to speak anywhere prestigious. Other pro Palestinian campaigners do, but not you. Why? Because you sound ridiculous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-5948636089649275522013-02-07T11:27:30.475+00:002013-02-07T11:27:30.475+00:00still think it was a terrible performance. Ppl I s...still think it was a terrible performance. Ppl I spoke to thought we needed someone stronger on there. Your points were shot down by the rabbi and you kept yelling. There are so many better points you could have and should have made. It's all over the blogs. I'm proud of what you do man I just think you should leave the media bit to better people. Just saying!Jay Spinnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-45172134459707756682013-02-06T16:03:00.719+00:002013-02-06T16:03:00.719+00:00Well there are 2 contrasting opinions. Actually m...Well there are 2 contrasting opinions. Actually my own performance matters little, but I came to make one particular key point, given that there's very little time in these programmes to intervene, which is that the cry 'anti-Semitism' is used to deflect support for the Palestinians.<br /><br />I also showed that Zionists regularly resort to using the holocaust as a means of intimidating their opponents whilst decrying the same as 'anti-Semitic' in their opponents.<br /><br />So I was perfectly happy at my own performance, about the 4th time I appeared, given that the whole topic only had about 15-20 minutes, given the format of Big Questions. <br /><br />I wasn't incidentally, notwithstanding what Jay say, purporting to speak on behalf of the Palestinians but Jews 4 Boycotting Israeli Goods and I was captioned as Brighton Palestine Solidarity Campaign.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-54580307833024279032013-02-06T07:39:23.944+00:002013-02-06T07:39:23.944+00:00Found your blog. Watched the bbc link. The rabbi i...Found your blog. Watched the bbc link. The rabbi is a shit. Wanted to slap him so bad. But he rubbed you all over the floor. You and me are on the same page but you are a bad rep for the cause in that kind of media. Either get some training or lie low. We need proper spokespeople for the Palestinian people. We don't have enough. If your the best we got we are doomed.Jay Spinnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-956585660944360062013-02-06T03:02:09.043+00:002013-02-06T03:02:09.043+00:00Well done for destroying the Zionist Tony!Well done for destroying the Zionist Tony!The Heart of Winterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16597682669951263957noreply@blogger.com