tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post6184106329864675051..comments2024-03-28T04:26:49.354+00:00Comments on Tony Greenstein's Blog: Setting the EDL Cat Among the Zionist PigeonsTony Greensteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-80294689526496435422010-10-31T20:06:08.612+00:002010-10-31T20:06:08.612+00:00thanks Richard. I stand corrected. I did pick up...thanks Richard. I stand corrected. I did pick up on similar misrepresentation on Green Engage where I have apparently urged rabbis to support the EDL! But this kind of obfuscation is typical of those who themselves who scream bittery, like Ian and Hoffman, if we suggested that demonstrating alongside the EDL implies any level of cooperation.<br /><br />As for Ian.<br /><br />Of course homophobia is tolerated within the Zionist movement. I've been on the receiving end of both homophobic comments and virulently anti-semitic comments such as when you were circumcised they threw away the wrong bit (Herut) or just a plan and straighforward pity you and you family didn't perish in Auschwitz.<br /><br />The Liberal and Reform groups have always been at the fringes of Zionism due to the fact that the definition of being a Jew in the Law of Return would exclude many (most?) of them.<br /><br />I'm sorry to hear that Ian is sick and tired of the calumny that Zionists and the EDl demonstrate alongside each other. Presumably our own eyes and photographs are merely lying, we imagining Hoffman and co. standing alongside them. It's a mirage.<br /><br />I can tell you one thing Ian. I have NEVER demonstrated alongside fascists nor will I ever do. When we had problems in the early 80s we physically removed them even though at least one of us (Roland Rance) was arrested. But good bourgeois types don't do this type of thing.<br /><br />So you want a separate pen from them and in the mean time you just stand at a safe distance alongside them and their swastika posters. Really you couldn't make it up. And why? Because you want to defend a shop selling settlement goods that promotes continuing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians who experience the murderous racism and ethnic cleansing of the settlers and army.<br /><br />Well yes of course if we gave up demonstrating then EDL wouldn't be there! That's what's called giving into fascism. Clearly Searchlight has moved even further to the Right since Gable was editor. But even he wouldn't have argued fascists should dictate what demonstrations we hold.<br /><br />Yes of course you are not an extremist. You supported 'disengagement from Gaza but so did Ariel Sharon, or was he not an extremist. You support 'robust' IDF etc. actions against the settlers but you fail to explain why it is that when thousands of olive groves have been set alight by settlers that only protesting Palestinians are arrested or chidren are arrested and beaten up (as long as they are not Jewish).<br /><br />The Israeli state supports the settlers. 16% of the army officers in the West Bank are settlers. The Israeli army has always supported settler violence, except where it spills over into attacks on liberal Israelis such as Zeev Sternhell last year.<br /><br />I don't support 2 states. Its a recipe for apartheid and a mini bantustand. I support the South Africa solution - one secular democratic state.<br /><br />You say you support the Zionist left - Labour and Meretz. The latter has almost disappeared and the former is on the way - tipped for just 6 seats in the next elections. And a left party? Barak is the one who presided over the Mavi Marmara murders. He it is who sits in the cabinet with Lieberman and supports loyalty oaths. If this is 'left' I hate to see what 'right' Zionism is like.<br /><br />There is nothing 'extremist' about the Ahava demonstrations. They are there to support the Palestinians. And of course we oppose the Israeli state as a Jewish state i.e. deligitimisation if that is what you want to call it. We support Israel/Palestine as a state of its citizens not a state of the Jewish 'people' i.e. Israeli Jews and Jews outside Israel.<br /><br />Is that so hard to understand? Is that your reason for demonstrating alongside the EDL?Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-79443875728693914172010-10-30T21:46:30.887+01:002010-10-30T21:46:30.887+01:00You missed a point Tony: the Harry's Place sit...You missed a point Tony: the Harry's Place site doctored the e-mail you'd sent, and tried to paint you as an actual advocate of support for the EDL. <br /><br />If you read down at the bottom of the thread somebody - whose name may be similar to my own - demonstrated the point: <br /><br />http://hurryupharry.org/2010/10/15/tony-greenstein-wants-rabbis-to-support-the-edl/ <br /><br />I don't share all of your opinions; but for people to be misrepresenting what you've said in order to attack you on a personal level is ridiculous; and to then be painting you as problematic while defending our mutual friend Mr Hoffman is appallingly cynical. My support may not be worth much, but you have it wholeheartedly. And you have my best wishes as ever. <br /><br />RichAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-87958058205561102892010-10-27T20:28:29.109+01:002010-10-27T20:28:29.109+01:00Tony ,
There is no Homophobia tolerated in the Zi...Tony ,<br /><br />There is no Homophobia tolerated in the Zionist Movement . I have many Gay friends Who are leading activists in Pro Israel campaigning - I won't use Their names without Their permission .<br /><br />Israel Connect ( the Youth wing of The Zionist Federation ) brought over Mr Gay Israel to speak to young Jews ( We were criticised for this by the Orthodox Right but We held the meeting regardless of Their prejudices )<br /><br />I am not Orthodox so I can't comment on Their beliefs<br />but I know that The Reform & Liberal Movements have Gay & Lesbian Rabbis<br />& LGBT People are treated the same as any other members of the Community . Israel has a thriving LGBT Community & I hope that it continues to go from strength to strength .<br /><br />I am sick & tired of having to repeat over & over again that the Zionist Counter-Demonstration does not Demonstrate alongside the EDL !!!<br />We have left the pen area to continue Demonstrating next to the hotel or We have requested that the EDL be given Their Own area . ( Monmouth Street is such a small Street that it is not really possible for large areas to be given as pens which would enable clear Political seperation of the Groups )<br /><br />If the Anti-AHAVA Extremists would stop their intimidating Demonstration then the EDL would obviously not be there & would not be given a reason to display their politics in the Street . <br /><br />I am not a Supporter of the Extremist Settlers . I Supported Disengagement from Gaza & I advocate robust IDF , Israeli Police & Shin Bet operations against Right-Wing Subversives Who challenge the rule of law within Israel's Democracy . I Support a 2 State Solution which will bring Peace for both The Israeli & Palestinian Peoples - I Support The Israeli Left-Wing Poltical Parties like Labor & Meretz & I am involved in Israeli & Palestinian Trade Union cooperation . <br /><br />Your allegation that I Demonstrate in favor of those who wish to expell Arabs is as unfair & false as it it is again Libellous .<br /><br />We there to Demonstrate against an Extremist & intimidating campaign that aims to Deligitimize Israeli Society by Boycotting a Kibbutz that is situated just outside the 1967 Borders ( I doubt that there was ever a settled Palestinian Community in the area ) . AHAVA products are made by a Kibbutz that predominently votes for <br />Left-wing Parties that support the Peace Process . The Boycott Campaign can only bring unemployment to both Israeli & Palestinian Workers alike - it will only lead to further distrust between Jews & Arabs & is likely to aid Right-Wing Reactionary forces in Israeli Society - We should be encouraging Dialogue between Jews & Arabs ( especially in the Trade Unions & inside the workplace ) . These reasons are why I Demonstrate in Solidarity with AHAVA .Iannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-38245807803415396442010-10-27T00:19:17.886+01:002010-10-27T00:19:17.886+01:00Mike Cushman is right that BIN network has never d...Mike Cushman is right that BIN network has never discussed the question of its approach, if any, to the JC-EDL poll. The report is simply what it says. Terry Gallogly of York PSC AND Bin, which is where he posted the original post on this.<br /><br />Ian is not right however. He rights that 'We are opposed to all manifestations of Racism , Anti-Semitism , Islamophobia ; and Homophobia . We do not want to be associated with the EDL & We do not want to demonstrate with Them.' Homophobia is rife within the Zionist movement and Jewish Gays play no part in communal activities. Do they have representation on the Board of Deputies? You know Chief Rabbi Sacks views on gays.<br /><br />But more importantly Ian and others who say they don't want anything to do with the EDL have a simple choice. Either stay and demonstrate alongside them or go home. Which is more preferable? Supporting the right of Ahava to sell stolen products from the West Bank, and being seen alongside EDL, or refusing to demonstrate alongside the EDL.<br /><br />I know what our position has always been. No fascists or racists. Period.<br /><br />And I don't accept for one minute the guff about being opposed to racism and homophobia.<br /><br />Settlement in the West Bank is carried out by the most racist section of Israeli society. It has a Yesha council with people like Rabbi Dov Lior on it who openly states that non-Jewish life is unimportant compared to Jewish life.<br /><br />The attacks on local Palestinians by settlers are horrific by any account. The recent burning of 2,000 olive groves. The burning of mosques. The armed attacks on Palestinians who tend their fields, backed up by the Israeli military. The use of child labour in the Jordan valley and of course the 'god given right to the area' which is reminiscent of the claims of a thousand year Reich.<br /><br />You accept Ian all of this and it is only 'anti-semitism' which concerns you. The fact that 59% of Israeli high school children oppose Arabs having the vote or having equal rights. The portrayal of Arabs in school books as the 'baddies'. The refusal to accept Arab children in kintergardens, as documented on this sight. It's all there but you demonstrate in favour of those who wish to expel Arabs.<br /><br />Because Ahava operates in the West Bank, not that I consider it any different from Israeli businesses operating behind the non-existent green line.<br /><br />I don't therefore accept that the wording to the image is in any way libellous but I'm happy to carry your explanation.Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-21483940141362827422010-10-27T00:14:13.642+01:002010-10-27T00:14:13.642+01:00Mike Cushman is right that BIN network has never d...Mike Cushman is right that BIN network has never discussed the question of its approach, if any, to the JC-EDL poll. The report is simply what it says. Terry Gallogly of York PSC AND Bin, which is where he posted the original post on this.<br /><br />Ian is not right however. He rights that 'We are opposed to all manifestations of Racism , Anti-Semitism , Islamophobia ; and Homophobia . We do not want to be associated with the EDL & We do not want to demonstrate with Them.' Homophobia is rife within the Zionist movement and Jewish Gays play no part in communal activities. Do they have representation on the Board of Deputies? You know Chief Rabbi Sacks views on gays.<br /><br />But more importantly Ian and others who say they don't want anything to do with the EDL have a simple choice. Either stay and demonstrate alongside them or go home. Which is more preferable? Supporting the right of Ahava to sell stolen products from the West Bank, and being seen alongside EDL, or refusing to demonstrate alongside the EDL.<br /><br />I know what our position has always been. No fascists or racists. Period. <br /><br />And I don't accept for one minute the guff about being opposed to racism and homophobia.<br /><br />Settlement in the West Bank is carried out by the most racist section of Israeli society. It has a Yesha council with people like Rabbi Dov Lior on it who openly states that non-Jewish life is unimportant compared to Jewish life. <br /><br />The attacks on local Palestinians by settlers are horrific by any account. The recent burning of 2,000 olive groves. The burning of mosques. The armed attacks on Palestinians who tend their fields, backed up by the Israeli military. The use of child labour in the Jordan valley and of course the 'god given right to the area' which is reminiscent of the claims of a thousand year Reich.<br /><br />You accept Ian all of this and it is only 'anti-semitism' which concerns you. The fact that 59% of Israeli high school children oppose Arabs having the vote or having equal rights. The portrayal of Arabs in school books as the 'baddies'. The refusal to accept Arab children in kintergardens, as documented on this sight. It's all there but you demonstrate in favour of those who wish to expel Arabs. <br /><br />Because Ahava operates in the West Bank, not that I consider it any different from Israeli businesses operating behind the non-existent green line.<br /><br />I don't therefore accept that the wording to the image is in any way libellous but I'm happy to carry your explanation.<br /><br /><br /><br />He says that '<br /><br />he EDL complained about this & on a number of occasions walked into Our pen area - it was during these moments that the Anti-AHAVA Demonstrators took photos & film trying to smear us with association with the EDL .<br /><br />The Counter-Demonstration regards the EDL as unwanted & univited Gatecrashers & I spoke to one of the Demonstrations leaders & asked Him why They were printing allegations that They know are untrue & libellous - He walked off saying <br />" I dont speak to Zionists " .<br /><br />I notice that Your website reprints the photo of the EDL placard with My name next to it . <br />Although the photo clearly shows Me looking away from the placard & not having anything to do with it the writing under the photo has been added to imply that I am Homophobic & connected to the EDL .<br /><br />I am not Homophobic & I regard this type of smear tactic deeply unfair & offensive .<br /><br />May I remind You that printing this photo on Your website is Libellous .Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-75207660221319834362010-10-27T00:14:10.177+01:002010-10-27T00:14:10.177+01:00Mike Cushman is right that BIN network has never d...Mike Cushman is right that BIN network has never discussed the question of its approach, if any, to the JC-EDL poll. The report is simply what it says. Terry Gallogly of York PSC AND Bin, which is where he posted the original post on this.<br /><br />Ian is not right however. He rights that 'We are opposed to all manifestations of Racism , Anti-Semitism , Islamophobia ; and Homophobia . We do not want to be associated with the EDL & We do not want to demonstrate with Them.' Homophobia is rife within the Zionist movement and Jewish Gays play no part in communal activities. Do they have representation on the Board of Deputies? You know Chief Rabbi Sacks views on gays.<br /><br />But more importantly Ian and others who say they don't want anything to do with the EDL have a simple choice. Either stay and demonstrate alongside them or go home. Which is more preferable? Supporting the right of Ahava to sell stolen products from the West Bank, and being seen alongside EDL, or refusing to demonstrate alongside the EDL.<br /><br />I know what our position has always been. No fascists or racists. Period. <br /><br />And I don't accept for one minute the guff about being opposed to racism and homophobia.<br /><br />Settlement in the West Bank is carried out by the most racist section of Israeli society. It has a Yesha council with people like Rabbi Dov Lior on it who openly states that non-Jewish life is unimportant compared to Jewish life. <br /><br />The attacks on local Palestinians by settlers are horrific by any account. The recent burning of 2,000 olive groves. The burning of mosques. The armed attacks on Palestinians who tend their fields, backed up by the Israeli military. The use of child labour in the Jordan valley and of course the 'god given right to the area' which is reminiscent of the claims of a thousand year Reich.<br /><br />You accept Ian all of this and it is only 'anti-semitism' which concerns you. The fact that 59% of Israeli high school children oppose Arabs having the vote or having equal rights. The portrayal of Arabs in school books as the 'baddies'. The refusal to accept Arab children in kintergardens, as documented on this sight. It's all there but you demonstrate in favour of those who wish to expel Arabs. <br /><br />Because Ahava operates in the West Bank, not that I consider it any different from Israeli businesses operating behind the non-existent green line.<br /><br />I don't therefore accept that the wording to the image is in any way libellous but I'm happy to carry your explanation.<br /><br /><br /><br />He says that '<br /><br />he EDL complained about this & on a number of occasions walked into Our pen area - it was during these moments that the Anti-AHAVA Demonstrators took photos & film trying to smear us with association with the EDL .<br /><br />The Counter-Demonstration regards the EDL as unwanted & univited Gatecrashers & I spoke to one of the Demonstrations leaders & asked Him why They were printing allegations that They know are untrue & libellous - He walked off saying <br />" I dont speak to Zionists " .<br /><br />I notice that Your website reprints the photo of the EDL placard with My name next to it . <br />Although the photo clearly shows Me looking away from the placard & not having anything to do with it the writing under the photo has been added to imply that I am Homophobic & connected to the EDL .<br /><br />I am not Homophobic & I regard this type of smear tactic deeply unfair & offensive .<br /><br />May I remind You that printing this photo on Your website is Libellous .Tony Greensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-48979632695261469842010-10-26T20:06:09.103+01:002010-10-26T20:06:09.103+01:00What the writer of the Free Palestine Fortnightly ...What the writer of the Free Palestine Fortnightly Demo neglects ( and My comment was removed from Their website ) to mention is that Jonathan Hoffman & the rest of the Counter-Demo immediately requested that the Police set up another pen for the EDL . <br /><br />The EDL complained about this & on a number of occasions walked into Our pen area - it was during these moments that the Anti-AHAVA Demonstrators took photos & film trying to smear us with association with the EDL .<br /><br />The Counter-Demonstration regards the EDL as unwanted & univited Gatecrashers & We are opposed to all manifestations of Racism , Anti-Semitism , Islamophobia ; and Homophobia . We do not want to be associated with the EDL & We do not want to demonstrate with Them .<br /><br />I spoke to one of the Demonstrations leaders & asked Him why They were printing allegations that They know are untrue & libellous - He walked off saying <br />" I dont speak to Zionists " .<br /><br />I notice that Your website reprints the photo of the EDL placard with My name next to it . <br />Although the photo clearly shows Me looking away from the placard & not having anything to do with it the writing under the photo has been added to imply that I am Homophobic & connected to the EDL .<br /><br />I am not Homophobic & I regard this type of smear tactic deeply unfair & offensive .<br /><br />May I remind You that printing this photo on Your website is Libellous .Iannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-33632282446953528092010-10-26T13:18:39.864+01:002010-10-26T13:18:39.864+01:00The line in this post "The poll was subsequen...The line in this post "The poll was subsequently pulled when Terry Gallogly of York PSC and the Boycott Israel Network and myself advocated a ‘yes’ vote." is potentially seriously misleading It could be read two ways:<br /><br />The poll was subsequently pulled when [Terry Gallogly of York PSC] AND [the Boycott Israel Network] AND [myself] advocated a ‘yes’ vote.<br /><br />OR<br /><br />The poll was subsequently pulled when [Terry Gallogly of York PSC and the Boycott Israel Network] AND [myself] advocated a ‘yes’ vote.<br /><br />If the former it is straightforward wrong as BIN has discussed never this.<br /><br />If the second then it is misleading in bringing BIN unnecessarily into this discussion nd opening up the ambiguity.Mike Cushmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-28548778909444419212010-10-25T19:48:52.013+01:002010-10-25T19:48:52.013+01:00(Sorry for being a bore - but just to continue on ...(Sorry for being a bore - but just to continue on the topic of the Jewish Chronicle opinion poll on the edl re-using comments I made on JPUK.)<br /><br />The JC poll was repugnant beyond belief. To even suggest nazis and neo-nazis have some kind of politically validity is repulsive. If anyone needs to ask questions like these then they are already lost.<br /><br />Tony Greenstein treated the JC poll with the respect and dignity it deserved - none. Less than none in fact.<br /><br />I'm utterly amazed it can even be a question - should we collaborate with edl nazis and neo-nazis or not?<br /><br />The JC blogger Mr Posner even stands up for the rights of nazis to be able to freely express their views in public.<br /><br />Obviously Mr Posner isn't familiar with the outcome of the last time nazis were allowed to take part in democracy, in Weimar Germany.<br /><br />Maybe Mr Posner will also stand up for the rights of neo-nazis to deny The Holocaust.<br /><br />I thought it was Palestinians who were the natural allies of nazis and other such antisemitic tendencies as well. It is a charge zionists themselves often make against Palestinians and their supporters.<br /><br />Indeed, if Palestinians and their friends stood up for the rights of neo-nazi and other holocaust deniers to be heard in public there would be a firestorm of zionist propaganda against them. And quite rightly.<br /><br /><br />TGB, thanks for giving me the opportunity to air some of my views.<br /><br />Take care.joe90 kanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15925893894108250518noreply@blogger.com