tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post5098725101410901891..comments2024-03-28T04:26:49.354+00:00Comments on Tony Greenstein's Blog: Gilad Atzmon Finds Someone to Defend Him (Roy Ratcliffe)Tony Greensteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14300640929161205370noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-33893389553250020712008-08-19T13:56:00.000+01:002008-08-19T13:56:00.000+01:00You can find Roy Ratcliffe's blog here.You can find Roy Ratcliffe's blog <A HREF="http://www.revolutionary-humanism.org/" REL="nofollow">here</A>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-27060449808966210322008-08-03T15:13:00.000+01:002008-08-03T15:13:00.000+01:00In fact this timelessness of anti-Semitism is a ke...<I>In fact this timelessness of anti-Semitism is a key part of Zionist ideology.</I><BR/>- TG<BR/><BR/>After TG's reference to Ian Kershaw's study of Nazi Bavaria, I managed to get hold of Kershaw's <I>The Hitler Myth: Image and Reality</I> (re-issue 2001) from my local library.<BR/><BR/>I thought I'd look up an infamous propaganda film Ian Kershaw he mentions.<BR/><BR/>The title alone, put me in mind of Irving, atzmon and rizzo's claim's to the essential, undying, eternal nature of hostility to Jewish people and Judaism -<BR/><A HREF="http://www.holocaust-history.org/der-ewige-jude/stills.shtml" REL="nofollow">Still Images from Der ewige Jude</A><BR/><BR/>all the best azvas!joe90 kanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15925893894108250518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-36014244843521854892008-07-24T17:30:00.000+01:002008-07-24T17:30:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-39882338459983175182008-07-24T13:34:00.000+01:002008-07-24T13:34:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-3881328822758318702008-07-24T11:12:00.000+01:002008-07-24T11:12:00.000+01:00Sorry anonymous but uncritical citings of Israel S...Sorry anonymous but uncritical citings of Israel Shamir will get deleted since he doesn't even make a pretence of not being a neo-Nazi.<BR/><BR/>No I don't think that Lipstadt is a Kahanist. More an academic airhead who, as Norman Finkelstein says, had her mouth tightly taped shut during the Irving trial for fear she might say something. Nonetheless she unwittingly performed a service in smoking out Irving, who proceeded to virtually accept everything he'd previously denied e.g. gas chambers everywhere but Auschwitz (it came down to whether you could spot the holes the Zyklon B had been poured into - there was no disputing the fact that gas was used in the Operation Reinhardt camps, as the Nazis documented it).<BR/><BR/>Joe is right. The making of anti-Semitism as an eternal essence is no different from the eternal Jew. Zionism as a separatist movement put up a mirror to anti-Semitism and called it its own. If that is all that it had done then it would have gone down in history like man Messianic movements, eg Shabtai Zvi (& Herzl repeatedly refers in his Diaries to his fears of becoming another false messiah). However it gained state power and that is why we are here.<BR/><BR/>For all the windy rhetoric of Ratcliffe he can't get over one simple fact, although he cites Atzmon's 'Not in my name' article, which is that for Atzmon being Jewish (except for the ultra orthodox)is in itself an act of Zionist faith. That the Zionists say this is undisputed. He can therefore find no role for Jewish anti-Zionism, which must therefore be Zionist in disguise - hence we are 'crypto Zionists'. The more we speak out, the more we do, the more Zionist we are. Therefore when I move a motion at UNISON conference calling for Boycott of Israel, I am acting as a Zionist!! When over 100 anti-Zionist Jews sign a letter to the Guardian saying Israel's 60th anniversary is no celebration to us, we are Zionists!! <BR/><BR/>And when the Ambassador of Israel attacks us and calls for our 'ostracisation' what is Atzmon's response? Nothing because he has no answers. The irony being that it is Atzmon's identity, which the poor Ratcliffe tries to defend, which revolves around the Zionist axis.<BR/><BR/>Hanna Arendt was a very interesting character. She never entirely broke from Zionism, though like Einstein she rejected the main nationalist contentions of it. Her book Eichmann in Jerusalem is a classic in its lucidity and analysis, hence why even t oday Zionist scribes like Cesarani are still trying to reply to it - 45 years later!! <BR/><BR/>Can you imagine responding to a book written nearly half a century before? It is a measure of the fact that though Holocaust historiography is almost entirely in the hands of Zionists and their apologists, they are still unable to defend their record.<BR/><BR/>TonyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-38515621666219750852008-07-24T06:37:00.000+01:002008-07-24T06:37:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-1788160617686827112008-07-23T05:38:00.000+01:002008-07-23T05:38:00.000+01:00There is never a meaning even if Non-Jewish cooper...There is never a meaning even if Non-Jewish cooperate with Chossudovsky Petras and Neturei Karta either. <BR/><BR/>It has a big meaning worldwide that Atzmon Eisen Rizzo Shamir and Wilhelmson cooperate with Chossudovsky Petras and Neturei Karta.<BR/><BR/>There is a wall between Haredi and Hiloni, however Hiloni is going to never break a wall.<BR/><BR/>Worthless Hiloni who cannot break a wall will be annoying to a Palestinian.<BR/><BR/>The half-hearted action is annoying.<BR/><BR/>The confrontation of Haredi and Hiloni is Israel itself.<BR/><BR/>http://www.globalresearch.ca/<BR/>http://petras.lahaine.org/index.php<BR/>http://www.nkusa.org/<BR/>http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Palestine/support.cfm<BR/>http://www.nkusa.org/books/pamphlets/pamphlet3.cfm<BR/>http://www.nkusa.org/aboutus/palestine/index.cfmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-43439713269682664752008-07-22T09:41:00.000+01:002008-07-22T09:41:00.000+01:00Fartypants, Do you have a mind to criticize Mr. Gr...Fartypants, Do you have a mind to criticize Mr. Greenstein's contradiction seriously?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-17941993316476331402008-07-21T22:18:00.000+01:002008-07-21T22:18:00.000+01:00Congratulations. Mr G has proved he has a bigger p...Congratulations. Mr G has proved he has a bigger penis than this Roy fellow. Dunno what else he has proved, though. Same logic chopping and jumping from pillar to post. No comprehensible or coherent arguments. Boring boring boring. Haven't looked at this site for ages. Probably be more ages till I do again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-54162544396902460182008-07-20T11:51:00.000+01:002008-07-20T11:51:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-1598001472524426812008-07-20T10:58:00.000+01:002008-07-20T10:58:00.000+01:00Here are some internet resources people might find...Here are some internet resources people might find useful.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.history.ac.uk/" REL="nofollow">Instute of Historical Research</A><BR/>The National Centre for History<BR/><BR/>Amongst the brilliant resources available is -<BR/><A HREF="http://www.history.ac.uk/ihr/Focus/index.html" REL="nofollow">History in Focus</A><BR/><BR/>Where you will find -<BR/><A HREF="http://www.history.ac.uk/ihr/Focus/Holocaust/index.html" REL="nofollow">Issue 7. The Holocaust</A><BR/>History in Focus<BR/>Institure for Historical Research<BR/>April 2008<BR/><BR/>No.7 'Holocaust' issue of HiF has a book review section which is useful, I think, for an amatuer like me trying to navigate my way through the garbage that clutters up this important topic.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Here is the website devoted to the David Irving trial -<BR/><A HREF="http://www.hdot.org/" REL="nofollow">Holocaust Denial on Trial</A><BR/><BR/>Try especially -<BR/><A HREF="http://www.hdot.org/trial/defense#expert" REL="nofollow">Expert Witness Documents</A><BR/>NDOT: Irving v. Lipstadt: Defense Documents<BR/><BR/>I'm not a big fan of Linda Lipsadt's extra-curricular atcivities I'm glad to say.<BR/>She seems a bit of a zionist<BR/><BR/>all the best azvas!<BR/><BR/>ps<BR/>if anybody can recommend any decent books etc, on the history of antisemitism and related topics I'd be very grateful indeed.joe90 kanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15925893894108250518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-71142950663397991722008-07-20T10:34:00.000+01:002008-07-20T10:34:00.000+01:00Anyway,following on from my above comment,I'm re-r...Anyway,<BR/>following on from my above comment,<BR/>I'm re-reading Hannah Arendt's brilliant book <I>The Origins of Totalitarianism</I> and would just like to quote a gobbet which explains some of the relations between social and political equality and discrimination.<BR/>This is well worth reading -<BR/><BR/>"The Jews' political ignorance, which fitted them so well for their special role and for taking roots in the state's sphere of business, and their prejudices against the people and in favor of authority, which blinded them to the political dangers of antisemitism, caused them to be oversensItive toward all forms of social discrimination. IT was difficult to see the decisive difference between political argument and mere antipathy when the two developed side by side. The point, however, is that they grew out of exactly opposite aspects of emancipation: political antisemitism developed becuase the Jews were a separate body, while social discrimation arose because of the growing equality of Jews with all other groups.<BR/><BR/>Equality of condition, though it is certainly a basic requirement for justice, is nevertheless among the greatest and most uncertain ventures of modern mankind. The more equal conditions are, the less explanation there is for the differences that actually exist between people; and thus all the more unequal do individuals and groups become. This perplexing consequence came fully to light as soon as equality was no longer seen in terms of an omnipotent being like God or an unavoidable common destiny like death. Whenever equality becomes a mundane fact in itself, without any guage by which it may be measured or explained, then there is one chance in a hundred that it will be recognised simply as a working principle of a political organization in which otherwise unequal people have equal rights; there are ninety-nine chances that it will be mistaken for an innate quality of every individual, who is "normal" if he is like everybody else and "abnormal" if he happens to be different. This perversion of equality from a political into a social concept is all the more dangerous when a society leaves but little space for special groups and individuals, for then their difference become all the more conspicious.<BR/><BR/>The great challange to the modern period, and its peculiar danger, has been that in it man for the first time confronted man without the protection of differing circumstances and conditions. And it has been precisely this new concept of equality that has made modern race relations so difficult, for there we deal with natural conditions which by no possible and conceivable change of conditions can become less conspicuous. It is because equality demands that I recognise each and every individual as my equal, that the conflicts between different groups, which for reasons of their own are reluctant to grant each other this basic equality, take on such terribly cruel forms."<BR/><BR/>Hannah Arendt <I>The Origins of Totalitarianism</I> <BR/>Part One: Antisemitism<BR/>Chapter 3: The Jews and Society introductory section (p55)<BR/><BR/><BR/>Once again, thanks for such stimulating, well researched and well put together arguments TG!joe90 kanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15925893894108250518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-73918060978088402822008-07-20T10:21:00.000+01:002008-07-20T10:21:00.000+01:00Thanks for that TG.A related point to this suppose...Thanks for that TG.<BR/><BR/>A related point to this supposedly 'essential' characteristic of Judaism and Jewish People, of eternal undying hatred towards them by everybody, at all times, is that those who say this is true (such as atzmon, rizzo and irving) must then have to agree with the 'lachrymose' version of Jewish history (as trend first pointed out by Salo W. Baron I believe).<BR/><BR/>It follows that Jewish People must always have been getting a hard time, if part of the 'essence' of Judaism is that it is disliked by non-Jews - therefore, the likes of rizzo, atzmon and irving have to agree that the 'lachrymose' version of Jewish history is true.<BR/><BR/>Following on from this, is atzmon's continual criticising Jews for refusing to give up their ethnic exclusiveness and supposed privileges. One of his arguments (for want of a better description) is that Judiasm isn't a universal religion or system of ethics due to the difficulty put in the way of any potential convert - unlike other religions, which anybody is able to join through the simplest of inductions and initiation ceremonies. Atzmon claims this is a form of discrimination and he links these supposedly discriminatory Judiac practices (social group identity) with the racist and discriminatory policies of the current Israeli regime (political group identity).<BR/><BR/>As we know, atzmon's psusedo-intellectual wafflings depend on such woolly-headed conflations. Same with zionism, which is why antisemites have so much in common with their fellow zionists. Both attribute the exact same 'essential' characteristics to Judaism and Jewish history. Both can be described accuratley as being (just to paraphrase the great George Galloway) two cheeks of the same arse.<BR/><BR/>I'm going to use a seperate comment below this one, to quote a page from Hannah Arendt's brilliant book <I>The Origins of Totalitarianism</I> which explains some of this further.joe90 kanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15925893894108250518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-13802608262141124182008-07-20T05:09:00.000+01:002008-07-20T05:09:00.000+01:00http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2008/07/gilad-atzmon-fi...http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2008/07/gilad-atzmon-finds-someone-to-defend.html<BR/>Pages 146-7<BR/>Chapter 4 - Irving and Holocaust Denial<BR/><BR/>Telling Lies About Hitler: The Holocaust, Hitler and the David Irving Trial<BR/>by Prof Richard J. Evans (2002)<BR/><BR/><BR/>https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=640441812647446166&postID=3160475608360933709&isPopup=true<BR/>Tony Greenstein said... <BR/>Anyone who cites Kahanist sites to attack anti-Zionists has their comments deleted Mr Anonymous.<BR/><BR/><BR/>http://www.hdot.org/trial/defense<BR/><BR/>joe90, Is Lipstadt Kahanist?<BR/><BR/>joe90, Mr. Greenstein is declaring Lipstadt to be Kahanist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-65989030779353074572008-07-19T14:47:00.000+01:002008-07-19T14:47:00.000+01:00Yes that's right Joe. Irving holds that Jews are ...Yes that's right Joe. Irving holds that Jews are 'responsible' for anti-Semitism and Atzmon does exactly the same. Of course the Zionists, when they are honest also accept that the Jews, because of their 'homelessness' are also responsible though today they argue, for propaganda purposes that Jews have nothing at all to do with anti-Semitism.<BR/><BR/>In fact it would be absurd to say that Jews or indeed any group has nothing to do with racism. Jews fulfilled certain roles in society which in turn engendered economic competition, which manifested itself as 'anti-Semitism'. Although irrational in itself, the reasons for racism are quite easily explained but to then go on to say that the victims are 'responsible' for racism is to exonerate the racists. Atzmon/Irving/Zionism also conflates different forms of anti-Semitism which occurred in different historical periods. It is timeless because Jews have always been 'strangers' in other peoples' countries according to the Zionist fiction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-640441812647446166.post-78009048961161988552008-07-19T12:13:00.000+01:002008-07-19T12:13:00.000+01:00Excellent article as usual TG, in many ways.In fac...Excellent article as usual TG, in many ways.<BR/><BR/><I>In fact this timelessness of anti-Semitism is a key part of Zionist ideology.</I><BR/>- Excellent point.<BR/><BR/>In fact the Jewish People in Nazi Occupied Europe were treated differently depending on which country they happened to find themselves in.<BR/><BR/>Antisemitism itself may be an attribute easily enough to identify but the reasons for its occurence in the historical record certainly isn't timeless, eternal or unchanging.<BR/><BR/>The rizzo/atzmon antisemitic bandwagon treat antisemitism as if it is an 'essence' - in the same way they'd love to treat all Jewish People, at all times, everywhere as exactly identical and unchanging. <BR/><BR/>In the same way they would love to attribute the crimes committed by the Israeli government as somehow the collective responsibility of Jewish People everywhere.<BR/><BR/>Here is an exceprt from an excellent book I read recently, as follows -<BR/><BR/>...Irving told an audience in Tampa, Florida, on 6 October 1995, referring to the Jews:<BR/><BR/>What these people don't understand...is that they are generating antisemitism by their behaviour, and they can't understand it. They wonder where the antisemitism comes from and it comes from themselves, from their behaviour...I said to this man from Colindale, this leader of the Jewish community in Freeport, Louisiana, I said...'You are disliked, you people. You have been disliked for three thousand years. You have been disliked so much that you have been hounded from country to country, from pogrom to purge, from purge back to pogrom, and yet you never asked yourselves why you're disliked. That's the difference between you and me. It never occurs to you to look into the mirror and say, why am I disliked? What is it that the rest of humanity doesn't like about Jewish people, to such an extent that they repeatedly put us through the grinder?' And he went beserk. He said: 'Are you trying to say that we are responsible for Auschwitz? Ourselves?' And I said, 'Well the short answer is yes. The short answer I have to say is yes...If you had behaved differently over the intervening three thousand years, the Germans would have gone about their business and not have found it necessary to go around doing whatever they did to you'.<BR/><BR/>Thus the Holocaust as Irving defined it was not exactly 'innocenticide': the Jews were guilty of provoking it themselves.<BR/><BR/>Pages 146-7<BR/>Chapter 4 - Irving and Holocaust Denial<BR/><BR/><I>Telling Lies About Hitler: The Holocaust, Hitler and the David</I> Irving Trial<BR/>by Prof Richard J. Evans (2002)<BR/><BR/><BR/>Irving here sounds exactly like Rizzo or Atzmon blabbering on, ahistorically, about why Jews are hated so much. The more they go on about why Jews are disliked the more zionist they sound, and the more succour and support they give to the Israeli government.<BR/><BR/>all the best azvas!joe90 kanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15925893894108250518noreply@blogger.com