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Thursday, 18 October 2012

Greta Berlin's Racism & the Gaza Freedom Movement



Or How I was Taken in by Greta Berlin's Protestations of Innocence
After my first post on the anti-Semitism and the Free Gaza Movement and the distribution of a link concerning an anti-Semitic video  by a Eustace Mullins, which claimed that the Zionists had basically organised the holocaust in conjunction with the Nazis, I received on October 14th various e-mails protesting about my post and saying that Greta had never made an anti-Semitic comment in her life.
Despite evidence to the contrary I was prepared to let Greta put her case but the post underneath from Mondoweiss is, I believe, quite conclusive in respect of this matter and it explains why the previous Board of the Gaza Freedom Movement has resigned.

In particular the vicious and racist attacks on Ali Abunima by Greta are unacceptable and demonstrate, to my eyes at least, that Greta isn’t quite as innocent as she makes out.
In order to understand the background, I am publishing the e-mails I received and my responses.

Whether I made an error of judgement is for others to decide.  However what I do feel strongly about is that it is inevitable, when Zionism repeatedly attacks the Palestine Solidarity movement for 'anti-Semitism' that some people will respond in inappropriate ways or will be taken in.

I think it's important that not only we do not rise to the bait but that we also throw the charge back at them.  If they say we are 'anti-Semitic' then we are entitled to ask why they are so concerned about 'anti-semitism' when they have nothing to say about other forms of racism, i.e. Zionism.  Do they e.g. condemn the rabbis who issued and endorsed the fatwa of Shmuel Eliyahu, Chief Rabbi of Safed barring Arabs from renting rooms in the city?  Or condemn Torat HaMelech, a vicious tract which justified the murder of Palestinian children?  In other words we should not be defensive and respond to every provocation.  I have personal experience of late with entirely made up  allegations by Zionists on the Sodastream picket.  By people who of course don't care a damn about real anti-Semitism.

What we should do is sort the wheat from the chaff.  The dedidated racists and anti-Semites from those who are gullible and taken in by Zionist propaganda.  The Atzmons, Shamirs, Martillos, Bards and co, who have now been joined by Ms Berlin too.

I should also thank Stephen Marks who first alerted me to this post from Mondoweiss below. 

There is also A final word on Greta Berlin and the Free Gaza controversy where Ali Abunimah makes it very clear just what this group around FGM were up to when they posted

Tony Greenstein

From: Irish;iristulip@gmail.com;
To: tonygreenstein@yahoo.com
Sent: Sunday, 14 October 2012, 17:02
Subject: Here is my rebuttal. Thank you.

This is ALL that happened regarding a video I wanted to park in a small group and watch later

1. I grabbed the video out of a group of 1000 people, a group that is private
2. I meant to park it into a group of 30+ people that is secret (to watch it later), but I never checked the settings before I hit SHARE, because I was in a hurry.
3. I did not watch the video. Why would I have watched the video? I was in a hell of a hurry and was traveling like crazy those four days. I would have watched it in the small group. Would we have had a discussion on it? Probably. We discuss all kinds of things as you can see from the attached conversation
4. I did not know my personal Facebook page was connected to the Free Gaza TWITTER page. There are 3300 TWEETS on the Free Gaza page, and you all attacked me for this mistake without even giving me a chance to clarify or figure out what had happened.
5. Free Gaza apologized on the front page of the website, using the language that Ali Abunimah gave us.
6. I apologized on the front page of Free Gaza after I figured out what had happened. That should have been the end of it.

I never said a word about the video. I never hit LIKE. In fact, I have been demonized, not for the mistake I made, but for the assumption that surely I MUST have said something to merit all of this hatred. I assure you, I did not.

This witchhunt is not about my stupid mistake. It's because I endorsed Gilad Atzmon's book, The Wandering Who," a book I personally liked. If everyone is going after me for my endorsement, then they need to go after the famous endorsers of Gilad's journey, including Richard Falk, John Mearsheimer, Karl Sabbagh, William Gates and Dr. Samir Abed-Rabbo.

OK Tony. You said you would publish my explanation. Please do that for me. You and I are never going to agree about Gilad, and why should we? I honor your distaste for his book. You should honor my endorsement or go after everyone who has endorsec
 
From: Irish
To: tony greenstein
Sent: Sunday, 14 October 2012, 16:50
Subject: Re: Your post

Dear Tony. Ali did no investigation of me. He never called me. He suggested that I write an apology on the front page of www.freegaza.org, and I did exactly that. Did you watch the video? Have you seen the video? It's just stupid, but it is NOT anti-semitic. It's anti-Zionist, big time. And he does not deny the holocaust. He blames the Zionists.

But that's not the point. I didn't watch the video until two days later. I just meant to park it in my small group, and that was it.

As far as distancing myself from Gilad, I don't walk away from my friends. Have you seen the endorsers of his book? I am in honorable company. Are you going after Richard Falk, John Meirsheimer, Ramzy Baroud, Mazin Qumsieh, Paul Larudee and a host of others? Did you even read the book? Why do I have to distance myself from Gilad's point of view?

This is ALL that happened. .

1. I grabbed the video out of a group of 1000 people, a group that is private
2. I meant to park it into a group of 30+ people that is secret (to watch it later), but I never checked the settings before I hit SHARE, because I was in a hurry.
3. I did not watch the video. Why would I have watched the video? I was in a hell of a hurry and was traveling like crazy those four days. I would have watched it in the small group. Would we have had a discussion on it? Probably. We discuss all kinds of things as you can see from the attached conversation
4. I did not know my personal Facebook page was connected to the Free Gaza TWITTER page. There are 3300 TWEETS on the Free Gaza page, and you all attacked me for this mistake without even giving me a chance to clarify or figure out what had happened.
5. Free Gaza apologized on the front page of the website, using the language that Ali Abunimah gave us.
6. I apologized after I figured out what had happened. That should have been the end of it.

I never said a word about the video. I never hit LIKE. I have never said anything. In fact, I have been demonized, not for the mistake I made, but for the assumption that surely I MUST have said something to merit all of this hatred. I assure you, I did not.
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 8:29 AM, tony greenstein <tonygreenstein@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear Greta,

I have tried to penetrate what is a very impenetrable story about who was discussing what and a video which was anti-Semitic but which I've not seen.  What is and isn't true is difficult to unravel and therefore many of us will rely on people who have investigated it like Ali Abunimah and Gabriel Ash.

I suggest you post a response which I will put up which includes responding to one of the main points which have riled many of us, which is concerning Gilad Atzmon.   The fact that you lauded his book, which is without doubt anti-Semitic and also locates the oppression of the Palestinians and Zionism's barbarities in Jewish identity is something that has weighed heavily with us.  Settler colonialism, be it in southern Africa, Palestine or Ireland has nothing to do with the inherent characteristics of the settler.  That is to accept their ideology.

Leaving aside all the stuff he has posted which is anti-Semitic http://www.azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/guide-to-sayings-of-gilad-atzmon-anti.html which I put on my site 18 months ago, his book on Jewish identity is nothing of the sort.  It simply draws a straight line between the Mosaic god 3,500 years ago and what Israeli Jews do today.  Anyone who wasn't so ignorant would know that Jewish identity has changed many times over the centuries, indeed many times within the last century from the Bund and Jewish working class movements of the pre-war years to Zionism now.  It is one of the arguments of the Zionists that they have a claim to the land based on what their forefathers were 'given' 3,500 years ago.  It's the myth of the thousand year Reich.  

Atzmon has done a great deal of damage, by associating some in the PS movement with anti-Semitism and drawn in others like Kenneth O'Keefe, at the same time as openly opposing BDS as 'book burning' and dissociating himself from the academic and cultural boycotts, which he has termed 'Jewish'.  My and others' criticism of him hasn't been because we have been particularly offended but because it hurts the Palestinian cause.  I can only speak for myself but in endorsing Atzmon you lent substance to the other charges.

I should add that having picketted much of yesterday outside the Sodastream shop in Brighton with the Chair of the Zionist Federation, one Jonathan Hoffman going on about 'nazi boycotts' I also noted that they made numerous references to you although no member of the public would have had the foggiest what they were on about.  If you are sincere, and I hope you are, in your disavowal of anti-Semitism, then a clear distancing from Atzmon would indeed enable some of us to come out and say you've been misrepresented etc.

Tony

Dear Tony. I have never made an anti-semitic comment in my life. I really am upset that you would legitimize what I consider to be a witch hunt on activists who stand up for justice in Palestine. I can't be any clearer about what happened than what was posted on the front page of http://www.freegaza.org/.

I'll reiterate:


I'm so done with this nonsense. I'll say it one more time.

1. I grabbed the video out of a group of 1000 people, a group that is private
2. I meant to park it into a group of 30+ people that is secret (to watch it later), but I never checked the settings before I hit SHARE, because I was in a hurry.
3. I did not watch the video. Why would I have watched the video? I was in a hell of a hurry and was traveling like crazy those four days. I would have watched it in the small group. Would we have had a discussion on it? Probably. We discuss all kinds of things as you can see from the attached conversation
4. I did not know my personal Facebook page was connected to the Free Gaza TWITTER page. There are 3300 TWEETS on the Free Gaza page, and you all attacked me for this mistake without even giving me a chance to clarify or figure out what had happened.
5. Free Gaza apologized on the front page of the website, using the language that Ali Abunimah gave us. What is his problem?
6. I apologized after I figured out what had happened. That should have been the end of it.And that is the extent of what happened.

I made no comment about the video. I did not LIKE the video. I thought it was parked into a small group for discussion later. I fail to see why we could not have discussed it, as we have discussed homophobia, racism, propaganda and other topics. So I am being demonized for a posting mistake and not for anything I EVER said. I am attaching a sample of the conversations in that small group. My attorneys have the original thread with the names.

Thank you. Greta

OK. I think that's quite fair. Thank you Tony. That is what free speech is all about. I'm 71 years old. I remember the witch hunts of the 50s and how people demonized my own father. I never suggested you agree with me. You said you would post my comments, and I'm happy you are honoring that. Greta
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 9:50 AM, tony greenstein <tonygreenstein@yahoo.com> wrote:
Greta

I did indeed say I would publish your comments and I will.  I will also publish underneath my own viewpoint but I will put yours up and mine as a comment below.  I think it is unfortunate that you don't dissociate yourself from Atzmon, as he is so clearly anti-Semitic and he has been disavowed by virtually everyone in the PS movement in Britain.  But it is your choice

Tony


 
by Bekah Wolf on October 18, 2012
Four months ago, I was added to a Facebook group called “Our Land” much of which, when I finally looked at the content, immediately struck me as anti-Semitic in nature, so I complained to the person who had added me.
That person was Greta Berlin. The “Our Land” page currently has 13 administrators, including Greta, and is a combination of posts from legitimate sources such as Ma’an News Agency and Al Jazeera on current events in Palestine, along with anti-Semitic rants and comments. The video of anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist Eustace Mullins that Greta tweeted out on the Free Gaza Movement's Twitter account on September 30 originated in this group.

Some people have come to Greta’s defense, accepting her assertion that this was a technical mistake, that she did not support the content of the video, and that those who have criticized her response to the “mistake” are on a witch hunt. I'd like to acknowledge that the Free Gaza Movement was not synonymous with Greta Berlin; some of my good friends and people I deeply respect were leaders of that movement and their work and commitment should in no way be minimized by this.

Setting aside Greta's woefully inadequate explanations for the tweet (of which there were several), the fact remains: Greta is an active administrator of a Facebook group that is full of unabashedly anti-Semitic rhetoric and has been called out before by activists for it but has never done anything to challenge or stop it. Since the controversy broke, the “Our Land” group has attempted to cover some of its tracks. The fact that Greta remains an active administrator of a Facebook group that accommodates this kind of bigotry raises serious issues about her commitment to building an anti-racist movement committed to justice and equality. Moreover, her unprincipled, vicious and Islamophobic attacks on the Palestinians who have called her to task for her behavior should alarm all of us who are committed to Palestine solidarity work.

While I am personally disappointed in Greta the stakes here are much higher than one person's lack of judgement. This moment is a challenge to the Palestine solidarity movement and for us to define the movement we want to be, and the rhetoric and ideas we are willing to embrace. I hope by writing this, I can explain what led me to address these concerns, and what I hope we can all learn from the experience.

A History of Anti-Semitism

On July 11, 2012 I started poking around “Our Land”. I found this article, with a personalized introduction posted by Greta, about Zionist-Nazi collaboration:

At the time, the group had just begun, and it included a wide range of voices. While the issue of Zionist leaders having some level of coordination with the Nazi government is well-established, someone immediately took issue with the introduction, which did not come from the article itself but was added by Greta. Particularly, the idea that “The H” was “to a large degree created” by Zionists.

Here is part of the discussion that followed:

Greta's assertion that the introduction was not hers but was a comment her “Jewish friend” wrote could not be verified, as the comments on this article had been turned off by countercurrents.org due to “racism”. This excuse, however, once again reeks of the same rationale she used about the tweet: these aren't her words, yet she still chooses to disseminate them, without qualification.
After I began to engage in the discussion, challenging the anti-Semitic claim that Jews orchestrated the Holocaust, I was immediately attacked by a prolific poster to the group: Joachim Martillo. He posted to the group often; his area of interest seemed to be the inherent viciousness and evilness of Ashkenazi (Eastern European) Jews. When I challenged both his outrageous bigotry, and his penchant for posting pseudo-scientific rants on Facebook, this is what he said to me:
“Bekah Wolf is expressing the same sort of bigotry that Jews commonly express when they claim non-Jews can't write about Jewish history or the Holocaust because they are not sufficiently in touch with the Jewish experience.[…]



For the record, I tend to comment here in the morning to get my mind working -- sort of like calisthenics.



At one time I was trying to focus on becoming a scholar of modern Eastern European and Jewish historical political economics.



But it is really hard to obtain a university position if one does not write what rich Jewish donors want to read.

Then I moved into packet switching technology (cash flows in an economy are mathematically indistinguishable to packet flows in an Internet) and invented one of the key building blocks of the Internet.”

I then, in a private direct message to Greta, complained about him, and the group in general, for its content, questioning why she had added me to it in the first place. She had this to say:

July 11
Greta Berlin
I just posted this to the idiots ganging up on you in Our Land. I have not been online or I would have stopped it much sooner. .......Sorry Bekah, the page is not mine. I belong to it just like you do. And, for everyone else in here, Bekah has more cred in her little finger than many of you do in your entire body. She lives in Beit Ommar, a Palestinian village in the Hebron District where PSP is based and puts her feet where her mouth goes. She's too modest to tell you these things, but she is an amazing women who works nonstop for the Palestinians.......
Greta Berlin
 

I was laughing at Joachim though. He has his good moments but his head is sometimes up his ass...ertions. And they have no idea who you are, so I just had to smack them a bit
What was shocking to me was the fact that she in no way addressed the issue I was bringing up: that Martillo was habitually making virulently and anti-Jewish postings in the group. And she just plain lied, she wasn't just a member of the group, she was an administrator who had been added as one in June:

Take a look at that list of administrators, by the way. Eight of the 12 besides Greta are the same people who signed a letter on her behalf as members of another “secret” Facebook group in which she claims she intended to post the Eustace Mullins video.

I left the group in July, but when I heard about the tweet she posted, and her claim that it was just a mistaken posting intended for a Facebook group, I was reminded of Our Land. On September 30, I requested to rejoin the group. Greta approved me within 15 minutes of my request, clearly still an active administrator. At the same time, I notified a couple of Palestine solidarity activists, including editors at The Electronic Intifada, about the existence of the group and my belief that it was probably involved. Sure enough, there, on Sept. 28, was the video posted by another of the administrators. This is the posting Ali Abunimah referred in his October 6 post on The Electronic Intifada, (“Greta Berlin’s statement is not correct").

Unabashed Anti-Semitism
As I looked through the posts of the group, my suspicions that anti-Zionism was consistently confused with overt anti-Semitism was confirmed. For example, another video posted on the same day as the one Greta tweeted was entitled: “The Holocaust Hoax.”

When one contributor posted an article with the introduction “we must never generalise about Jews and Zionist Jews” Joachim Martillo came back with this explanation of why we, in fact, should:
This is the same man who Greta told me “had his good moments”. She also welcomed him back after he was banned from the forum for the week.

What needs to be understood and emphasized is that this kind of virulently racist material was common in the group, and, as far as I could see, never challenged by the administrators, including Greta.

A Guilty Mind?
After it became clear that The Electronic Intifada had gained access to the group, there was a belated attempt at a cover-up. On October 9th, several prominent members of Greta's support network, along with the most racist contributor, deleted their Facebook pages, eliminating their previous posts to the group. When administrator Sam Siddiqui deleted her Facebook profile, she took with it a post in which another member of the group wrote that she did not support Greta because she too had confronted Greta about her anti-Semitic rhetoric on Facebook (in one example I saw, Greta blamed bad coverage of Israel/Palestine in the Economist on the fact that it is "50% owned by the Rothchilds." Besides playing into tropes of Jews running the media, this is also factually inaccurate).
In addition, Joachim Martillo also deleted his Facebook profile, taking with it all traces of his previous posts.

What is perhaps even more disturbing is that while Greta refused to condemn these posts (let alone exercise her authority as an administrator to remove them and ban the contributors), she is totally unapologetic. When someone posted one of the articles in an Israeli newspaper about the tweet, she said about her detractors, “I find them hysterical. What they don't seem to realize is that, like Gilad Atzmon, people are now buying the book. What morons.”

Greta Berlin continues to defend and openly participate in a Facebook group that posts videos exactly like the one she tweeted two weeks ago and reportedly finds "disgusting." She is unapologetic about it now, and has been in every interaction I've had with her about it. I do not think that Greta is a Nazi-sympathizer, but I have seen her engage, accept, and encourage anti-Semitic rhetoric, and this is incredibly damaging to the Palestine solidarity movement. What she, and this group, represents is dangerous to our movement in solidarity with Palestinians: a complete disregard for the basic principles of anti-racism and anti-bigotry most of us hold dear.

Lessons Learned
Several people, particularly Palestinians in Palestine, have criticized the amount of attention Greta and her tweet have gotten. Some have criticized her for making this about her and drawing attention away from the people who are actually suffering. Others have criticized those in the movement who have tried to hold Greta accountable. What people seem to be missing, however, are two key reasons why we cannot tolerate this rhetoric in our movement.

First, as a movement based on universal principles of human rights, freedom, and dignity, we should not allow any bigotry, racism, Islamophobia or anti-Semitism in our midst. This was a point eloquently made in recent days in a statement signed by more than 100 Palestinian activists, academics and cultural workers.

Secondly, there are some utilitarian reasons why we should avoid this kind of rhetoric. Every time a Palestine solidarity activist takes on the issue of Holocaust and its connections to Zionism, every time they conflate Judaism with Zionism, they are making an inherently Zionist argument. The horrific historical reality of the Holocaust does not, and never can, trivialize or justify the dispossession and suffering of the Palestinian people. But Greta and others, by insisting on making such topics a primary concern are tacitly conceding a key Zionist claim that the legitimacy of Zionism and its past and present deeds in Palestine stems from the Holocaust.

As an anti-Zionist Jew who has been active in Palestine for 10 years, Greta Berlin's statements and the content of “Our Land” not only offend me, but they have damaged my ability to combat Zionist rhetoric by claiming that I cannot be both religiously Jewish and anti-Zionist. Zionists routinely argue that to be Jewish is to be Zionist and the kind of rhetoric displayed on “Our Land” concedes this important point and supports this fundamental Zionist claim. In addition, this episode regarding Berlin’s tweet has damaged our movement as a whole and has shown deep short-sightedness by opening us up to attack and dismissal by Zionists who are desperately trying to paint us as a movement as anti-Semitic. Palestinians have not asked the solidarity movement to concern itself with notions of Jewish identity, authenticity, and the Holocaust, but to offer active and effective solidarity in restoring their rights in their country.

I am hopeful, however, because of the principled stances prominent members of our movement took against this offensive and misguided rhetoric. In my experience, a majority of Palestine solidarity activists are genuinely anti-Zionist and desire to combat a modern-day political movement, not an ancient religion or group of people. To paraphrase what a fantastic Palestinian activist once said, there were Jews in Palestine long before Zionism, and there will be Jews there long after Zionism as well.

15 comments:

Gert said...

Oh dear. When I read about Joachim Martillo I’d read enough. Martillo is a deeply antisemitic piece of shit, one of a handful of antisemitic bigots that claim to be pro-Palestinian activists. His anti-Ashkenazi blog (http://eaazi.blogspot.com/ , not sure it still exists)is/ was notorious. He’s also a first class crackpot. This isn’t just guilt by association anymore: for Greta Berlin to hang out with such a shady bigot is unforgivable.

Good work, Tony.

Mooser said...

I may be mistaken, but might there still be a Joachim Martillo comments archive at Mondoweiss? Do I recall him commenting there for a bit?

Tony Greenstein said...

I wouldn't honestly know but these people are a gift to the Zionists and poison to the movement for BDS.

I'm also going to add a link to a post from Electronic Infifada which sets the seal on this affair

Blake said...

I love it, the expert of all times, suddenly claims all the time " wouldn't honestly know " I don't know them (the new board).....
What else don't you know of things you don't want to know......

So what do you have to say to the New Board..... (I know, you will not publish..... anything)

You are doomed.

Tony Greenstein said...

I know that you are probably a Zionist Blake and therefore approve of the JNF, Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu's ban on Arabs renting apartments in Safed, the discrimination in welfare benefits and much else in Israel, the eviction of Bedouin villages and the fact that there are only 'unrecognised' Arab villages - plus the deJewification (sorry I meant Judaisation but it's the same principle) in Galilee, Negev and Jerusalem.

So maybe our Hasbara expert, who has of course no e-mail attached to his name, can explain all

Gert said...

Mooser:

Yes, he did and then got banned.

Dr Abraham Weizfeld said...

JPLO Note: So Greta Berlin states;

" This witchhunt is not about my stupid mistake. It's because I endorsed Gilad Atzmon's book, The Wandering Who," a book I personally liked. If everyone is going after me for my endorsement, then they need to go after the famous endorsers of Gilad's journey, including Richard Falk, John Mearsheimer, Karl Sabbagh, William Gates and Dr. Samir Abed-Rabbo. "

OK, Let's go after all these people who cannot figure out the difference between Anti-Zionism as opposed to Antisemitism; as well as Israel Shamir, Gilad Atzmon, or, those who do not care to differentiate between the two; Ernst Zundel, Adolf Hitler, etc.

The reason why this matter of Antisemitism has to taken care of is that it is in the interest of the Palestinians to do so. The reason why it is crucial and a matter of principle to do so in the interests of the Palestinians is evident if one takes seriously the proposal for a cohabitation of Palestinians with the Israelis in a combined country. Do the advocates of a One-State solution seriously believe that such a proposal is credible if Antisemitism is not objected to and banned! This is only one attribute of the One-State-Solution that is faulty. National identity cannot be abolished, as the Zionist ideologues has found w.r.t. the Palestinians and so the national-identity of Jewish people and in particular Jewish-Israelis will not disappear because some people expect it to be so. That is why National-Cultural Autonomy is essential for a solution and a Kana'an Federation.

In respect to the comment of Tony Greenstein here following, it is important to add on that, while the Zionists have launched accusations of Antisemitism against all critics of Israel, the Zionists have not cared to mention the Antisemites who support Israel. This points to the lie that the Zionists are concerned by Antisemitism and the claim that Israel exists to take care of the problem of Antisemitism. Zionism does not exist to oppose Antisemitism, it merely uses Antisemitism to instil fear in Jewish people to garner support for that Nation-State power under their control. We should call the Zionists on the issue of Antisemitism and not cater to Antisemitism.

dr. abraham Weizfeld

Mooser said...

"Yes, he did and then got banned."

Yes, and back in 2007 or thereabouts. I thought his comment archive (if it still exists) might be worth seeing, especially if he's deleted other material.


Disgusted said...

But the only thing - the ONLY thing - that separates you from Atzmon/Eisen/Shamir is holocaust denial! Everything else is identical!!

How can you pretend you are cut from a different cloth? You have dedicated your sad, squalid little life to campaigning for the end of Israel (and the attendant slaughter of Jews when you replace them, in your fantasy, with yet another Islamofascist state under the Nazi butchers of HAMAS) - you are no different from Atzmon and his pals. No different at all.

Tony Greenstein said...

This is what passes for intellectual comment from the average Zionist.

Apparently the only thing separating me from Atzmon & co. is holocaust denial. Well in that case even that qualification doesn't apply to the unnamed disgusted since he denies the Nakba.

Like a good fascist he doesn't see the difference between an end to the Israeli STATE and its people. Racists like him said the same about South Africa. And did all Germans die when the Nazi state was dismantled.

But such intellectual elucidation is too much for our normal frothing at the mouth fevered Zionist.

But what concerns him is an 'Islamofascist state under the Nazi butchers of HAMAS'

Strange that under these Islamo fascists Jews who support the Palestinians are welcome and 25,000 live in that other Nazi state, Iran! Such little subtleties of course do not disturb our disgusting Zionist.

The fact that Israel did more to create Hamas, as a bulwark against the left and secular Palestinian nationalists, doesn't, like most facts affect him either. To rant and rave like a lunatic is a Zionist prerogative these days.

Disgusted said...

What a strange response. Where in my comment do I "deny the nakba"? What an odd thing to say with nothing to support it.

As for "Jews who support the Palestinians" being welcome in a HAMAS-run state, you know damn well that's a lie - they have stated time and time again that they are dedicated to ridding the region of Jews. Article one of their charter expresses their desire to annihilate Jews - as you well know. You are also well aware that the PA also says there will be no Jews welcome in a Palestinian state. For you and PSC, a Palestinian state would encompass everything that is currently Israel - so where exactly are these Jews going to be welcome, eh?

As for Iran - your comment is truly sick. You know full well how Jews are treated in Iran - you know full well, for example, that only one member of a family is allowed to leave at any given time, so there is no chance of most Jews emigrating to escape that fascist hellhole.

I know you only publish comments selectively - let's see whether you have the balls to publish this and respond to it...?

Tony Greenstein said...

Amira Hass, from Ha'aretz lived in Gaza under Hamas so you are wrong from the outset. If only one Iranian Jew is allowed to leave, and I'm not aware of this, then that is because Iran doesn't want its Jewish community to decline, the exact opposite of Hitler's desire to make Germany 'Judenrein'.

Everything you say points to you denying that the original cause of the problem was the expulsion of the Palestinians. You are a hasbarist.

Iran isn't a fascist state because fascism is the product of advanced capitalism, not something that an economy dependent on one major export product - oil - and itself the subject of vicious sanctions can be. It may be many things, most of them western inspired, but it isn't fascist.

I will exclude any further comments if you are not able to contribute something new or don't tone down your language. In particular shouting and accusations of anti-Semitism will mean exclusion of further comments.

The Jooooz said...

Tony,
You realize when you say Zionism is racism and Zionists are bigots that you're essentially accusing almost all Jews of being racists? The percentage of anti-zionist Jews like yourself is miniscule. Jews who don't even identify as Zionists wish no harm to the Jewish state and want it to prosper. That makes Israel's Jewish supporters all bigots and racists in your view. And THAT is itself bigoted.

Imagine accusing more than 99% of all Palestinians of being bigots and racists. This is essentially what you're doing with Jews.

Even the most liberal and progressive leftwing Zionists like Amos Oz, Jeremy ben Ami, and Peter Beinart are "rightwing", bigoted supporters of "apartheid" in your view.

There's no point discussing anything with people like yourself. Ridicule and contempt is all you deserve from us "bigoted and racist apartheid supporters".

Signed,
The Jooooz

ps,
I applaud your efforts vs. Atzmon and Ken O'Keefe. But then again, they're only embarrassments to your movement. There's simply no way you couldn't detect earlier their hate and disgust for all things Jewish. So while you did the right thing, it appears you only did so because they were embarrassing you publicly. If they had just towed the line as nice "anti-zionists" using clever euphemisms to hide their hatred, all would be well.

Tony Greenstein said...

Sorry I don't know your name, since 'the Joos' is a racial description. No matter.

What am I to say? In a survey published by Ha'aretz today 'Most Israeli Jews would support apartheid regime in Israel'

'Survey, conducted by Dialog on the eve of Rosh Hashanah, exposes anti-Arab, ultra-nationalist views espoused by a majority of Israeli Jews.'

According to the survey:
'The majority of the Jewish public, 59 percent, wants preference for Jews over Arabs in admission to jobs in government ministries. Almost half the Jews, 49 percent, want the state to treat Jewish citizens better than Arab ones; 42 percent don't want to live in the same building with Arabs and 42 percent don't want their children in the same class with Arab children.

A third of the Jewish public wants a law barring Israeli Arabs from voting for the Knesset and a large majority of 69 percent objects to giving 2.5 million Palestinians the right to vote if Israel annexes the West Bank.

A sweeping 74 percent majority is in favor of separate roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank. A quarter - 24 percent - believe separate roads are "a good situation" and 50 percent believe they are "a necessary situation."

Almost half - 47 percent - want part of Israel's Arab population to be transferred to the Palestinian Authority and 36 percent support transferring some of the Arab towns from Israel to the PA, in exchange for keeping some of the West Bank settlements.

Although the territories have not been annexed, most of the Jewish public (58 percent ) already believes Israel practices apartheid against Arabs. Only 31 percent think such a system is not in force here. Over a third (38 percent ) of the Jewish public wants Israel to annex the territories with settlements on them, while 48 percent object.'

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/survey-most-israeli-jews-would-support-apartheid-regime-in-israel.premium-1.471644

So 58% believe Apartheid is in practice in the occupied territories and a massive 69% want Israel to bar the Arabs from voting if the territories are annexed. I'll let u into a secret. Israel isn't going to annex the territories, not at least till it is able to transfer the Palestinians across the Jordan, at least officially, precisely in order to avoid being labelled an Apartheid state. But Apartheid it is.

Now you say that because I say Zionism is racist - I do - and Zionists are bigots - I don't, at least not all of them - I am therefore a bigot and presumably anti-Semitic!

There is just one flaw in your argument. I also say that all immigration controls in Britain are racist. Probably 80-90% of people support immigration controls, so am I saying that most people in Britain are racist?

No. YOu see most people who support immigration controls don't see them as racist. In other words they need convincing. Likewise most Jews outside Israel still see Zionism as some kind of refuge project which doesn't have to be anti-Arab or racist. They don't see that a Jewish state is inevitably racist.

Even among Israelis, there are some, admittedly a minority, who on an individual basis are not racist but would describe themselves as Zionist. I certainly do see Amos Oz as a racist, his killing and crying Zionism omits the Palestinians.

But there are those like Zeev Sternhall who I can respect even though he sees himself as a non-racist Zionist. He's wrong.

But although ideology and practice don't march together, over time how people see themselves does indeed come into line with their practice. That is the lesson of Labour Zionism.

So I make a sharp distinction between the movement and its supporters. After all 2/3 of the Nazi Party according to all surveys weren't anti-Semitic, but the Nazi party was! Maybe not an exact analogy but it is nonetheless true (see Ian Kershaw if you find that hard to believe in his 'Popular Opinion & Dissent...')

Tony Greenstein said...



No I don't think that Peter Beinart is a racist, but his non-racism is leading to vociferous attacks on him from those who maintain that to be a Zionist means being a racist!

Atzmon and O'Keefe are the product of the accusations of 'anti-Semitism'. They say 'right, if supporting the Palestinians means being anti-Semitic then so be it.'

THeir phenomenon is entirely one of your making. Interestingly most anti-Semitic opponents of Zionism are not Palestinian but white European or Israeli!!

They are indeed irrelevant and I oppose them primarily because of the danger they do to the PS movement. People like Omar Barghouti and Ali Abunimah don't have a racist bone in their body. Nor do PFLP friends of mine, but it is they who were the real opponents of Israel when they helped set up Hamas in the 1980's.