


I was rung up at about 12.30 a.m. by the hospital to tell me that he was dying and I immediately rang my mother, who got into a taxi. I drove up to Liverpool soon after to go straight to the hospital to be with my mother.
Dad was a travelling rabbi and most of the synagogues he ministered to in the provinces have now closed as their Jewish communities have dwindled to virtually nothing. Southport, Stoke-on-Trent, Coventry (which may still be going), Merthyr Tydfil and then Birkenhead, across the Mersey from Liverpool and Fairfield which was his last synagogue.
I had been up to Liverpool about 3 weeks previously when it was feared he might not last but my younger brother Jonathan managed to get him transferred from a care home to hospital where a drip could be put in. I won’t bother describing the attitude of these people to the elderly except that people go there essentially to die and the homes see their job as palliative – making people ‘comfortable’ rather than seeing whether they may be able to have a few extra years. I don’t want to be maudlin. Dad was 99 which is a good age by any measure and was in pretty good health until the mid-90’s.
With all this discussion about Jewish identity these days I thought maybe I should also chip in! I am fairly unusual among anti-Zionist Jews in that I come from an Orthodox Religious Zionist background. I had broken effectively with Zionism by the age 16, but maybe the formative break with my father was when I was 14 I declared I was an atheist, not something that goes down too well with the Orthodox, of whatever faith.
It would be pointless to say we were close, having seen each other relatively little over the past few years. We had argued ferociously when I was younger and I left home at 18. Nonetheless I shed some tears seeing what had been a strong, aggressive man lying so weak and helpless on his bed. I also couldn’t help but wonder why it was always impossible to pierce beneath the exterior.
I guess that I learnt something of how to be a good parent from my father, even if it was the opposite of how he would have behaved. But he was also in the tradition of the old bible belt preachers, with a gun in one hand and the bible in the other. I can remember in the Stoke shul my dad threatening to take one of the congregants outside, and not for a breath of fresh air either! I must confess I didn’t know about his boxing until I read the obituary below but it doesn’t surprise me. There were a few other, similar incidents, about which I shall not write about.
Needless to say dad fell out with most of the synagogues and move on after a while. Dad grew up in the East End and he described to me on a number of occasions what it was like living with the violence and thuggery of Moseley’s British Union of Fascists. He described one kid to me who had been put through a plate glass window by the fascists and he was proud of having been present at the Battle of Cable Street in 1936, when the fascists were prevented from marching through the East End. He hated anti-Semitism but he didn’t see that racism was wrong whoever was the target. Nonetheless he always voted Labour since he remembered Tory support for anti-Semitism in the East End, though he forgot that the small English Zionist Federation backed those Tories in the 1900 General Election.
I can remember visiting with him two of his sisters - Jessie and Lottie - in the East End. They both lived in poverty and squalor, the former in particular. It is often forgot now by Jews who live in Edgware or Golders Green that not so long ago most Jews lived in great poverty. Instead of being sub-Thatcherites they solidly voted for the Left and in Mile End in 1945 it was the Jewish voters primarily who put Phil Piratin, 1 of only 2 communist MP's elected as such in Britain, into parliament.We had many arguments as can be imagined. And also some good times on holiday. One or two things are too personal but I can remember dad always had a sticky wrapped sweet in his pocket! I can also remember dad bailing me out of Walton gaol in Liverpool back in 1972. I’d been done, hitching back from the Windsor pop festival, for possession of dope and received a fine of £30 or 28 days in prison from an austere London magistrate. When I said I didn’t have the money to pay he looked up from his glasses and said ‘Well get a job then’. Presumably members of his class didn’t understand that Liverpool then and now had high unemployment.
I was picked up in a raid on a squat and dad was quite content to let me serve out the sentence. Unfortunately the local rabbi was doing his rounds and on coming across me immediately informed my parents. It was one thing having me languish in a Victorian prison, but quite another letting anyone in the Jewish community find out! Dad was no intellectual nor did he have any pretensions to the contrary, unlike many of today’s rabbis. He did however have a good memory. He knew the whole of the Torah (Pentateuch) by heart. Dad had a good innings and fought to live to the end. And for all living creatures death is the end.
The funeral was held on Tuesday 24th November in the Jewish cemetry.
Tony Greenstein
Minister was a champion boxer
Jewish Telegraph – Liverpool Edition – 25.11.11.
REV Solomon Greenstein, who was minister of the old Fairfield synagogue at the time of its closure, died on Shabbat, aged 99.
He also taught at King David High School and worked as a shochet.
Born in Whitechapel in London's East End in 1912, he was the son of Polish immigrants Rabbi Alter Natan Greenstein and Fayge Rivka.
He studied at the prestigious Etz Chaim yeshiva for seven years and followed his father into the ministry, although in his schooldays he was a keen sportsman, being a champion swimmer and boxer.
He also loved chazanut and studied for a time with the acclaimed chazan Herman Bornstein, of Princes Road Synagogue.
In 1952 he married Esther (nee Mechulam), a primary school teacher from Wallasey who had been active in the local Bnei Akiva.
The couple settled in London, but moved to Merseyside in 1965 when Rev Greenstein was appointed minister to the now defunct Birkenhead Synagogue in Balls Road.
He served as a hospital chaplain and was introduced to the Queen at the opening of Arrowe Park hospital.
After retiring, Rev Greenstein was able to indulge in his passion for painting by attending night classes and he also enjoyed listening to music.
His son Jonny, who lives in Jerusalem, said: "Dad was scrupulously observant, putting on tallit and tephillin every morning even into his 90s when he needed help.
"A week before he died I asked him what he wanted and he replied 'kiddush' which shows how much Judaism meant to him."
Rabbi Malcolm Malits, Allerton Synagogue's emeritus minister, said: "Rev Greenstein was very knowledgeable and we were colleagues at King David.
"He must have been a good shochet because he once worked at Cardiff under the watchful eye of the renowned Rabbi Ber Rogosnitzky - if he was good enough for him, that was quite a compliment."
Dr Eric Toke, former chairman of Fairfield Hebrew Congregation, said: "Rev Greenstein was a charming man who did everything he could to help the congregation and I remember his interesting and illustrative sermons."
Rev Greenstein is survived by Esther, sons Anthony, who lives in Brighton, Jonny, David, who lives in Prestwich, 10 grandchildren and one great-grandchild.
One of his grandchildren, 17-year-old Tamar Greenstein, recently performed in London with the Jerusalem Conservatory Orchestra.
While in the UK her piano trio was invited to perform at the Yehudi Menuhin school and at the home of renowned virtuoso Murray Perahia.
25 comments:
I feel stupid for only now having found this thread. Please accept my condolences.
I’m guessing you and Rabbi Greenstein probably didn’t see eye to eye on the question of Zionism but losing a parent is always a hard thing. I've yet to face it. Makes one think.
thanks Gert. No we didn't see eye to eye on Zionism though it was on religion that our first real break occurred. I declared at 14 that I was an atheist which really threw him.
I always wondered what my reaction was and what I would feel, if anything, since we were distant. But then it comes to it your emotions are not rationally constructed and I felt for someone who had been so strong and vibrant, even if we had rarely agreed.
It comes unfortunately to most of us and to me later than most. The worst thing I can imagine is to outlive a child.
thanks Gert
Sorry to read about the death of your father. I am researching the history of Balls Road Synagogue in Birkenhead and wondered whether you have any information, memories or photographs relating to you fathers time as the Rabbi.
Look forward to hearing from you
Many thanks
Jo
Jo,
thanks. Drop me an e-mail to tonygreenstein@yahoo.com and I will try and recall what I can etc.
Hi Tony,
I too only just discovered that your father passed away, and as you know tradition does not permit us to comfort the mourner after the allocated time, which is long gone.
The traditional words that we have said for more than 2,000 years are the wish that you may be comforted together with those others who mourn for Zion and Jerusalem.
I have no doubt that your understanding of what Zion and Jerusalem are, and should be, are different to mine, so on this this occasion, perhaps,it might be more appropriate to break with our Ashkensi tradition and say in the words of our Oriental brothers, "From the heavens, may you be comforted."
I wish you and your family a long life and lives of meaning and many reasons for happiness.
Thank you Daniel. I will take it in the spirit in which it was meant.
As you can imagine the death of a parent involves many contradictory emotions, especially when one's parent and you don't see eye to eye on fundamentals.
But if I often saw only the bad things about my dad in his life then death gives you a sense of perspective and understanding.
I think we come from a generation of which many had issues with their parents. Though mine apparently never reached the extremes that yours did, neither was I spared the pains of what was then called the "generation gap"- also mainly with my late father.
I identified with much of what you wrote including my parents reaction to my first arrest and apparently some feelings and experiences are common to many children of the 60's and 70's whether they were waving a red flag at the time or burning one. I guess in many ways we were all the "Children of the Revolution".
Somebody once told me that if you see a fish swimming with the stream, you can never be sure if it's alive or dead. If it swims against the tide, it may be a good or bad fish and it might not even know where it's going, but at least you know it's alive.
I'm not sure whether you're good or bad - probably the latter and I'm pretty certain that you have no idea where you're going, but as long as you keep swimming against the tide I know you're alive, and that isn't something I can say of everyone I know!
Daniel
well we were and we weren't children of the revolution. I'm not sure that teenage rebellion hasn't been a feature of most societies in most of history.
You have a different perspective on life when you are young and old. When you get older you have commitments, your own family and you also think about the appearance of the grim reaper (angel of death etc.).
I know where I want society to go. At the moment we live under an insane capitalist system in which money is god. It creates the possibility of a society where ills like hunger and poverty can be laid to rest but its social organisation mitigates against that. Hence class conflict.
Instead we have the absurdity of national conflicts and nationalism, with some people believing that where there ancestors mythically lived two thousand years ago gives them rights over those there now!
I will die a socialist and anti-Zionist, neither of which my dad was!
I've always had a sneaking admiration for champions of lost causes. I wanted to be one, but failed miserably.
As a youth I joined the Revisionist Party in 1975 quite certain that Begin would never win and election and then in 1977 he emerged victorious after three decades of failures. I joined the victory celebrations, but was secretly quite mortified.
I joined the struggle to bring own the Soviet Union and release my imprisoned brethren, quite sure that we'd never win and then that damn Evil Empire went and collapsed, so once again I found myself without a cause.
I've written books hoping they'd never be published, but invariably they were. I wed an Argentinean, imagining that a crazy soul like mine would be divorced within a few years, but instead find myself happily married after all these years, I could go on, but I'm boring us both.
That's why I admire you champions of lost causes who make it. Those who have never been inside a bookie may not know, but to choose horses that will always come last is every bit as difficult as choosing the winners and with the little I know of you and the causes that you have supported, you have been remarkably successful in choosing your battles. Only a few months ago you were basking in the afterglow of the popular people's uprising in Egypt. Today as you know they're killing themselves again, as usual, and the only remaining question is as to whether the Egyptian proletariat will be enslaved by another greedy dictator or by a Muslim cleric. Either way, if I was an Egyptian Commie, I'd be checking out flights to Cuba or writing my will.
I have no doubt that you are right that you'll die a socialist and anti-Zionist, were it up to me I would have it no other way. I hope that day will be many years from now, and that until then you will continue to fight for both causes with the same degree of success as you have enjoyed so far.
Daniel:
You still are a Revisionist Zionist (and a revisionist in more than one way). These are the people who go around calling everyone an anti-Semite (thereby squeezing the last bit of meaning from that word) because they oppose your and Israel’s plans for complete domination of Historic Palestine!
The Soviet Union by the way wasn’t defeated, it collapsed under its own weight. Anything near true socialism was never on the cards there.
But I wouldn’t give up on socialism just yet: there’s definitely a strong sense of malaise worldwide about the latest form of laissez faire capitalism and its scorched Earth tactics. Even in Israel rumblings are being felt against the few oligarchies that rule it.
As regards Egypt and the revolutionary struggle there, your flippant remark shows just how little you know about historical processes. The last greedy dictator of Egypt BTW was propped up by Israel’s best friend and almost exclusively to ensure Israel’s domination of the region. The US’s ME FP got seriously stuck in the sand when they lost Mubarak, wheels spinning but no traction. Despite predictable difficulties, the ME is on the road to democracy and it won’t be good for the Zionist Entity, believe me!
You’ve written books? On what subject? Philately for beginners? Kosher cooking for Olehs?
Your latest choice of video over at Richard ‘I’m not a Zionist’ Millett was real classy BTW! Real classy indeed...
Hi Gert,
Hope all is well and that this comment finds you in good health and excitedly preparing for Christmas.
So many interesting questions, where do I begin?
It would have hardly have been so unabashed as to claim sole personal responsibility for bringing down the USSR, so I cautiously and stated that it "..went and collapsed. You then attributed me with having said something that I hadn't explaining that "it collapsed.." what can I say? I stand corrected. It didn't collapse it collapsed(!?).
Regarding historical processes you're probably right too. It's not easy when you're in the center of the Middle East meeting Israelis and Arabs every day to gain the same kind of perspective as one can from the reference department of the Bridlington Library. Let's look at the news...40 killed by bombs in Syria and 15 by government forces. Maybe try explaining to their wives, parents and children about "historical processes".
My last book was a simplified version of the Curious Case of Benjamin Button:
http://www.burlingtonbooks.com/spain/Page.aspx?PageID=1669
and I'm currently working on a book about Joe Louis and Max Schmeling. You can buy them in Spain or online. The idea of kosher cooking is certainly worth considering. I recall you tried your hand writing on the subject, so maybe we could collaborate.
Finally, I'm glad you enjoyed my choice of music and all that remains is to offer seasonal greetings to you and yours.
Daniel
Daniel,
As per usual you’re unable to keep the personal out of anything: where I live, my status of employment or the size of my penis (see below) has nothing to do with anything.
Regards these historical processes, do you also discuss with those ‘Arabs’ what befell to so many of them in 1948 and later in 1697? Processes that are ongoing?
Israel may be in the Middle East but only geographically: in essence it’s a neo-colonial Western venture and it behaves accordingly. There is nothing ‘middle eastern’ about it.
The video of some ‘blond bombshell’ reactionary bimbos singing ‘All I want for Christmas is Jews’ to the tune of ‘All I want for Christmas is you’ was perhaps marginally less in bad taste than one of your emails to me, source: http://developing-your-web-presence.blogspot.com/2011/10/zionist-humour-and-counter-arguments.html :
“MaxGentleman Enlargement Pills have been featured across major media outlets around the world, including ESP and Fox News, with dozens of positive reviews.
This is the only Male enlargement supplement that has been PROVEN in clinical trials to enlarge your penis ×’€“ safely, quickly, and importantly ×’€“ PERMANENTLY”
An allegedly grown man, fifty of age and 27 years settler of Ma’ale Adumim has to resort to this kind of ‘humour’. Perhaps one can take the Little Ingelander out of Britain but not out of the settler?
Do yourself a favour: keep your blathering on at Millett’s refuge for the brain dead and your Nazi offspring friend, Mizz Helga Silke. Here it won’t be appreciated.
Gert,
I had no intention of making your private parts a topic of conversation on this excellent blog and consider your doing so to be in bad taste, especially considering the topic of this page.
As you know, I am a passionate believer in free speech, but I do believe that this freedom should be exercised with some discretion and common sense. I am neither a GP nor a sexologist and have absolutely no knowledge or experience of such problems. You could make use of the aforementioned Max Gentlemen site or consult a professional at: Bessingby Road, Bridlington, North Humberside, YO16 4QP
Now, let's all get back to the topic!
Happy Holiday
Daniel
Daniel
I thought it was self-evident. Being a religious Jew, marrying out was considered the worst of all crimes. And the consequences of that meant that my father, if he had known (which he didn't) of the existence of my children would not have wanted to meet them. That was all.
It is, unfortunately, part of the insanity of Orthodox Judaism, something that Zionism is now freezing in time as it defines the privileged within its 'Jewish' state.
On reserves duty there would come a time in the evening when conversation would change from mundane matters, such as cars and money and evolve to subjects that interested me more, including politics, religion and eventually late at night philosophy and theology.
Around sundown my secular comrades in arms often quizzed me (the resident religious settler) with questions such as, "If you had to choose between your son/daughter marrying a Secular Jew, an Ultra-Orthodox Jew or a Religious Jew living outside of Israel which would it be?" The possibility of my off-spring marrying Gentiles was also occasionally mentioned in such bull sessions. I would occasionally throw back the question including an Arab or homosexual to make them aware that they were also not lacking in prejudice.
Similar questions sometimes arise in discussions while I am studying Talmud with religious friends. Most claim that they'd prefer Ultra-Orthodox to secular. I've always preferred the latter thinking that at least with an irreligious child I'd be able to talk. I think that to me then most unforgivable sin would be leaving Israel.
However, deep down we all know that as parents we'd ultimately forgive anything. Somebody once told that your friends' kids you like BECAUSE of their actions and behavior. Your own you love DESPITE the way they act or behave. I think in every child-parent relationship though there are times when you stop liking each other, you never stop loving each other.
I find it hard to believe that your father never knew that your children existed. To the best of my knowledge their being was never kept secret and you proudly mentioned cooking for them on Richard Millett's blog not long ago. Furthermore, surely your siblings passed on information that they had.
All the same, it is in my mind a sad story, and if I understand your reply to Gert, the split over religiosity preceded your adoption of anti-Zionism, which makes me wonder what might have been had your father reacted differently to your initial declaration of atheism. Perhaps, you'd be living today on some secular kibbutz with your Swedish wife, who knows? I think I might reread The Road not Taken and ponder the matter a little more.
Happy Hanukah, Christmas…or whatever makes you happy.
PS. Gert,
What the devil happened in 1697?
Surely, you couldn't be alluding to the earliest known first-class cricket match that took place in Sussex?
Your story caused me to ponder the rumors I have heard of parents sitting shiva (mourning) their children who marry out. I tried to find its basis, but was unable so I asked our rabbi (Yeshoshua Katz) this morning. He said he had heard of the custom, knew that it is not obligatory and knew nobody who had done so. Another rabbi who overheard said that he knew of such a case. Rabbi Katz said he's look into the matter.
This morning I googled the matter and found this interesting piece.
http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v35/mj_v35i75.html#CAAJ
The key paragraphs are:
"This custom [of sitting Shiva] is based on a misunderstanding that dates back to the publication in the twelfth century of Or Zarua, by Rabbi Isaac of Vienna. In this book, Rabbi Isaac reported that the great eleventh-century scholar Rabbenu Gershom ben Yehuda, known as the Luminary of the Diaspora (Meor Hagola), sat Shiva for his son who had converted to Christianity. Upon publication of the book, it became widespread practice to sit Shiva for one's child who converts, despite the fact that outstanding scholars, including Joseph Caro, author of the Code of Jewish Law, insisted that doing so is not the law and hence is not appropriate conduct.
Why, then, did Rabbenu Gershom sit Shiva for his son? Further delving by scholars revealed that Rabbenu Gershom did not sit Shiva for his son at the time of the young man's conversion. He sat Shiva for him at a later date, at the time of the son's death. And the misunderstanding grew out of the misreading of one word in Isaac of Vienna's work. Isaac wrote that Rabbenu Gershom sat Shiva for his son and he used the Hebrew word shenishtamed, meaning 'who had converted.' Some of the texts erroneously added one letter to the word and spelled it k'shenishtamed, meaning 'when he had converted.' Because of the error, it was believed that Rabbenu Gershom sat Shiva at the time of his son's conversion."
I know that this is neither Capitalist or Zionist, but in my opinion, it's interesting all the same.
Thanks Daniel. However the custom seems to have taken root. Edwina Currie who I referred to was an ex-Government Minister in Britain.
Certainly I have always understood this custom to be one that is practised and in the end a practice grows through custome, hence how the Jewish law is updated and modernised.
Maybe it isn't a religious obligation but I didn't want to risk it!
Also it is rare that a son deceases his father so it would make sense for shiva (which is in any case said on death) to be said at a different time.
Yes it's nothing to do with Zionism but how the oral law develops into firm practice and in that sense it does have something to do with Zionism - which the Orthodox opposed initially and now, with few exceptions, accept.
I think it might be more accurate to say that initially the majority of orthodox Jews opposed Modern Political Zionism because the understood that to most early Political Zionists their ideology was meant to replace Judaism. Incidentally, the majority of Reform and Secular Judaism also opposed Zionism for other reasons.
By 1948 a majority of what are now called Modern Orthodox Jews had embraced Zionism while almost all Ultra Orthodox Jews opposed it in varying degrees.
From 1948 until today more Ultra Orthodox Jews have ceased being anti-Zionist,though few could be described as Zionists, usually accepting the existence of the State of Israel as a fait accompli.
You'd be wrong to imagine,however, that only the Neturei Karte nutters still oppose the State of Israel, they are more vocal, but I'm sure that a majority or European (Ashkenasi) Ultra Orthodox Jews have dreams that are closer to yours than mine.
Finally,returning to sitting shiva question,I'm pretty sure that you're wrong - certainly in Israel.
Regarding the UK I'm less sure. There's a lot of ignorance there and many Jews seemed to have acquired most of their religious knowledge from Fiddler on the Roof and Yentl.
Well it is symptomatic of the separation between diaspora and Israeli Jews that there will such differences in customs, of which this is one.
Orthodox Jews oppose Zionism in theory but in practice subscribe to the idea that it is forbidden to give back one inch of the occupied territories. To me that puts them in the same bag as Netanyahu and the Revisionists.
But whereas the latter are merely good imperialists who use religion, the former view the occupation through a religious prism, whilst being unable to comprehend that their religious views have changed as a result of facts on the ground.
That is the fate of all religions and if ever Israel turns into a secular, non-Jewish state they will adapt accordingly, whereas in the meantime the relious settlers provide the most atavistic and murderously racist interpretations of the talmud with which to justify the persecution of Palestinians.
People like Dov Lior and books like Torat HaMelech.
I think you are confusing National Religious with Ultra Orthodox or what is generally called Haredi (in Israel).
Today most of the former oppose "territorial compromise" for what might simplistically called ideological reasons, while the latter oppose it for practical reasons. Up until Oslo a majority of Haredi leaders including the biggies Rav Ovadia, Rav Schach,etc supported the giving away of land in exchange for "peace". Today many have just come to the conclusion that such compromises have caused more, rather than less, bloodshed. Their followers were always much more hawkish than their leadership.
Regarding the "shiva" question, as I said, this is not a split between Israel and the diaspora, more likely between less and more ignorant. I think the average Israeli religious kid has acquired by the third grade much more Jewish knowledge than most secular Jews will ever attain and he overtakes most diaspora Orthodox Jews somewhere between the 5th and 6th grades.
With all due respect Tony, I question whether you have read the book that you mention or have the Talmudic background to understand it. I haven't read it, though elder son has and was unimpressed. Somebody said that under certain conditions, where there is nothing else to eat and life is in danger, human flesh may be eaten. The publishing of that book would be the equivalent of publishing a cannibal's cook book for such eventualities.
With your permission I shall not get drawn into an argument over the Palestinian question. Neither of us are going to persuade the other and so I think it's best to wait for your Worker's Revolution or my Messiah - whichever one comes first!
No, I'm aware of the difference between the National Union, the old NRP and the Ultra Orthodox, which itself is split between Ashkenazi and Sephardi.
I'm well aware that Ovadia Yosef used to be seen as a moderate, as was Shas as a whole. But since the 1980's it has moved steadily to the Right, partly because it is in government but partly because the logic of being in power in a Jewish state has caught up with it.
The Arab is 'the other'. The dynamic of the state is the dynamic of Zionism. In any event the military dictate the pace not politicians. But regardless of cause, Shas has trodden a well-worn path of using religion to justify the worst abominations.
And Ovadia's son, Yaakov Yosef is even worse. An open supporter of the book Torat HaMelech.
I don't accept that it is the equivalent of a cannibal's cook book, however horrific that is, because it isn't seriously suggested that in the dire straits of being on a boat to nowhere with 3 passengers (as actually happened) the choice of who to eat is a racial one (in fact it was the weakest a young boy!).
This book, which no I've not read and don't wish to, is an open incitement and justification of murder of non-Jews because they are non-Jews. And the justifications for murdering Palestinian babies and children are almost word for word (they'll grow up into terrorists) what Himmler said in his famous speech in October 1943 in Posen (Posnan) in German annexed Poland where he justified the holocaust. The tape of the speech is in existence and was played at Nuremburg.
The fact that hundreds of rabbis have rallied round its authors including the fils of Ovadia Yosef, speakers volumes.
As far as kaddish is concerned you are the expert but this is widely believed in the West and further more I understand that some of my father's family in Poland were so treated. Whether true or not I don't know since they were amongst those who were murdered in the holocaust.
I think you are confusing National Religious with Ultra Orthodox or what is generally called Haredi (in Israel).
Today most of the former oppose "territorial compromise" for what might simplistically called ideological reasons, while the latter oppose it for practical reasons. Up until Oslo a majority of Haredi leaders including the biggies Rav Ovadia, Rav Schach,etc supported the giving away of land in exchange for "peace". Today many have just come to the conclusion that such compromises have caused more, rather than less, bloodshed. Their followers were always much more hawkish than their leadership.
Regarding the "shiva" question, as I said, this is not a split between Israel and the diaspora, more likely between less and more ignorant. I think the average Israeli religious kid has acquired by the third grade much more Jewish knowledge than most secular Jews will ever attain and he overtakes most diaspora Orthodox Jews somewhere between the 5th and 6th grades.
With all due respect Tony, I question whether you have read the book that you mention or have the Talmudic background to understand it. I haven't read it, though elder son has and was unimpressed. Somebody said that under certain conditions, where there is nothing else to eat and life is in danger, human flesh may be eaten. The publishing of that book would be the equivalent of publishing a cannibal's cook book for such eventualities.
With your permission I shall not get drawn into an argument over the Palestinian question. Neither of us are going to persuade the other and so I think it's best to wait for your Worker's Revolution or my Messiah - whichever one comes first!
Well,broadly speaking, we seem to be in basic general agreement on most points.
I'm sure you won't be offended if I tell you that I found the discussion about your father far more interesting than your observations about Israeli politics which all seem a bit second hand and culled from articles that someone who had spoken to an Israeli journalist wrote.
You are quite a talented author, but it's always better to write about subjects that you've lived, people you know, places you've been, books you've read, experiences that you've had, etc.
As always, I wish you all the best.
Daniel
I think I am aware enough of what goes on in Israel but being a settler you are unable to see the wood for the trees, so we will have to differ.
On the more personal note, the death of a parent, even one you haven't hit it off with, triggers all sorts of emotions you never knew you had. I honestly wondered whether I would react at all, given that there was little meeting of minds and I had resentments (some of which I can't even speak of here as they are too personal).
But when the time drew near and especially given the effect on my mother, who was understandably distraught, you act like any normal human being does. Forgiveness isn't a religious trait it's also a human one, indeed it is especially a human one to look for the good in someone rather than the bad.
One of the things I did admire in dad was his resolute opposition to the Moseleyites and the British Union of Fascists. My pity was that he didn't generalise that hatred of racism to all racism.
But having said that, having just written a book on the fight against fascism, I have decided to dedicate it to my father and all those, Jewish and non-Jewish, who took part in the battles against Moseley.
Hi Tony,
Firstly, to make myself abundantly clear, the case of eating human flesh is, of course, when the person is already dead. There are many such unlikely possibilities in halachah, the most famous among them being the stoning of a rebellious son and the destruction of cities that worship idolatry. In both cases the Talmud explains that such situations have never existed and will never exist. Why are they mentioned? That's a long story and for another day.
I compared to book to a cannibal's cook book because even though we all acknowledge that there may be a theoretical one in a hundred million situation where they'd be the need to eat human flesh, but then if someone were to publish a cook book for such occasions it might appear to someone who can't see the trees for the wood that Judaism is a religion of cannibalism – while I believe that even you'd concede that we're not.
Regarding that "not seeing the wood for the trees" I loved it! Terribly British and terribly colonial. Send a chap from Whitehall to East Africa to explain to those Fuzzy Wuzzies what they ought to be doing and if they argue that British reality may not have much bearing on what's happening there it's because they can't "see the woods for the trees". My older daughter is studying Aeronautical Engineering. Next time one of her lecturers tells her she's made a mistake I'll tell her to use that argument.
Again, returning to your father, I also noticed a change in your attitude since his death. It occurred to me that if I had read a Reader's Digest of Freud I might ask whether your atheism, radical anti-Zionism, intermarriage, etc weren't all weapons of an enormous Oedipus Complex and when you saw your father dying and that the battle was finally "won" you didn't wonder to yourself, "What next?" Could that be part of the "all sorts of emotions you never knew you had."?
I'd be very interested to read your book and you can sell me a copy when it's finished, assuming you have no ideological objections to trading with a settler..or trading in general. In one of the books I wrote for English teaching in my Yeshiva we learnt about the battle for Cable Street and about Charlie Goodman returning bruised from a police station. An old woman asked if he had been in the fighting and as not to upset her he said he hadn't. She replied:
"A curse on you because you did not fight on this day"
My grandfather was there too. He was a poor tailor who had joined the Zion Mule Corps in World War One, but was never granted citizenship until almost four decades later. He was a life-long atheist and Socialist who replaced Charles Darwin for G-d Almighty- I say kaddish for him once a year.
May we all be worthy of all our ancestors.
Daniel
of course I'll sell you a copy. All the money goes in any event to Labour History Workshop. I shall not want nor expect a penny.
I think this discussion about cannibalism is esoteric. No religion I know of treats it as anything other than an aberration though I don't like the idea of stoning an aberrant son and eating him much. There is a very strong taboo in all of us against eating human flesh, irrational perhaps, but there it is. What I would do in such a situation I cannot say since I cannot imagine such a situation.
Having read pretty widely re the situation of those in the concentration & extermination camps I know that beyond a certain point a human being loses all dignity and becomes a shadow. I recall in particular the description of Rudolf Vrba in 'I Escaped from Auschwitz' one of the best books of its kind around and his description of how these people had become.
No I did not suffer that type of oedipal feeling on my father's death. Certainly I did not see his death as any kind of victory. Despite having been in many a punch up and worse with fascists I find it very difficult to inflict violence and I recoil from hurting someone. My father's plight induced pity and tears that a strong man had been reduced to this. I did not see this as having 'won'. Nor was it a weapon in a battle.
I became a socialist and anti-Zionist through choice, a battle with myself primarily, an attempt to make sense of the world. My great regret is my father was incapable of sitting down and rationally discussing this. For him it was a given and that is where our personal dispute began and ended.
Short of joining the National Front I cannot conceive of cutting off my children. I expect to disagree with them and am currently having prolonged discussions with my daughter on these topics (she's an atheist by the way!).
My emotional turmoil is and was on an entirely different level. It is why it wasn't possible to know who my father was. That is what hurts. My kids know me, there's nothing they can't ask and we joke and laugh together in a way it wasn't possible with my dad. I did a 5 mile hike today with my 2 younger sons - Tom & James - and we discussed things, politics included. Indeed it is because I have a relaxed attitude to these things that Tom's becoming quite a radical and James shows every sign even at the age of 10.
It is my father's inability to reason that is distressing and this relates back to Orthodox Jewry and accepting as given what he was taught. Faith. But man cannot live either by faith or bread alone!
Yes I know of and about Charlie Goodman and heard him speak denouncing the craven attitude of the Board of Deputies. He was someone who helped with the reigniting of the anti-fascist struggle in the 1970's and 1980's. He was a wonderful person.
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