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Friday, 22 May 2009

An Open Letter to the SWP - Have you Broken with Atzmon?

Rumours have been circulating, not least on this blog, that the SWP have finally woken up to the fact that it is useless denying that Gilad Atzmon is anti-Semitic and a holocaust denier, despite their attempts to brush it under the carpet and pretend that nothing is amiss. In the spirit of comradeliness I wrote to the SWP's National Secretary, Martin Smith, asking if the rumours were true and promising that my purpose in writing was not to exact some form of retribution or gloat. Suffice to say I have not received a response, hence why I have resorted to an Open Letter instead.

Tony Greenstein


Dear Martin Smith,

I wrote to you on 26th April 2009 to ask you whether or not rumours that the SWP had broken its ties with the anti-Semitic jazz player, Gilad Atzmon, were true. To date I have had no reply, which was not totally unexpected given the record for openness of the SWP.

You may recall that I wrote:
Cde. Smith,
I have heard from various people that the SWP has now decided to have nothing to do with Atzmon. My purpose in writing is to ask whether or not this is true or not. If this is true then well and good, since there is absolutely no doubt by now that Atzmon is anti-Semitic, especially with his articles seeking to blame Jews for the current capitalist crisis.
I am not seeking to gloat or say I was right or publicise that fact so much as to ascertain that what I have been told is true.
I would therefore welcome your assurances on this.
Fraternally
Tony Greenstein
Coincidentally, no sooner had I e-mailed you than I received a post from the well-known Jewish anti-Zionist, Lenni Brenner, asking me whether the SWP had denounced Atzmon. Lenni of course had no problem from the very start in denouncing Atzmon's politics. Of course I didn’t know the answer to his question but Lenni kindly attached an article from the Guardian of March 6 2009, ‘Manic beat preacher’ . In the course of an interview with John Lewis, Atzmon’s relationship with the SWP came up. Lewis notes that
‘Some Palestinian activists see his provocatively anti-Jewish rhetoric as discrediting their cause, while the Socialist Workers party, which once proudly paraded him at conferences, has distanced itself from him. "I don't give a shit, really," he says with a shrug.
Other rumours have surfaced recently that the relationship is not what it was, however one would have thought that a group which purports to be a Marxist, revolutionary socialist party would have the honesty and transparency to come clean, to be open about the matter, to admit that they got it wrong and to reflect on why that was the case, rather than letting people learn about the latest SWP about-turn from a liberal bourgeois newspaper such as The Guardian.

It is a long time since I was expelled from the International Socialists (the SWP’s precursor). However, whatever our differences at the time, I do recall that there was one thing the SWP made absolutely clear with its ‘Neither Washington nor Moscow’ slogan which was emblazoned on the front cover of Socialist Worker. It stood proudly in the tradition of the anti-Stalinist opposition. I recall how it poked fun at how the Stalinists had airbrushed Trotsky out of a picture taken with Lenin. It criticised the methodology of Stalinism,. which never took stock of its previous twists and turns before moving on to yet more of the same kind – from the Third Period to Popular Frontism and worse.

Yet here you are doing exactly the same. Changing your position but never acknowledging that it is such, nor being open about the reasons for such a change.

The fact that it took you four years to wake up to the fact that Atzmon was overtly anti-Semitic should be a matter of political self-examination and concern in itself. Maybe his attribution of the economic and political crisis that is engulfing western capitalism to the conspiracies of international finance Jewry forced your hand. I refer in particular to his attribution of the need for ‘spiritual de-Judaification’ of the financial world to one John Reynolds, Chair of the Ethical Investment Advisory Group, which resulted in Atzmon facing a libel action, since Reynolds had said no such thing.

Or maybe what eventually moved you was Atzmon's belief that socialism was no more than robbery of the (Gentile) rich:
'“Robbery and plunder doesn’t live in peace with a deep understanding of the notion of human equality” and citing his own youthful vengeance towards “wealthy goyim,” Atzom further asserts: “The Jewish nationalist would rob Palestine in the name of the right of self-determination, the Jewish progressive is there to rob the ruling class and even international capital in the name of world working class revolution.”
Perhaps you hoped that if you didn’t mention the subject then no one would notice and the problem would be solved that way. Either way that is the height of political dishonesty. One would have thought that a group that proudly trumpets its anti-racist credentials, might ask itself, in all seriousness, how it was that it managed to get into bed with a certified anti-Semitic crank? Was it all because of his music?

I should point out that the statement you issued on 21 June 2005, in response to the picket that Jews Against Zionism organised at Bookmarks in protest at your hosting Atzmon for a talk on Otto Weininger, Hitler’s favourite Jew, is still on your website. [accessed 22.5.09.] Does this statement, in the absence of anything to the contrary, still reflect your position? It claimed that
‘One or two small groups are claiming that Gilad is an anti-Semite and Holocaust denier. We would like to state the following:
 Gilad Atzmon is an Israeli born Jew who served in the Israeli Defence Force and who now lives in “self-exile” in Britain.
 He is an internationally acclaimed jazz musician whose album Exile won BBC Best Jazz Album of 2003.
The SWP would also like to make it clear, that we would never give a platform to a racist or fascist.’
Well of course all this was irrelevant. Bobby Fischer was also Jewish and was an acclaimed chess Grand Master, but that didn’t stop him being anti-Semitic.

At the risk of intruding on private grief, I will repeat the question again. Has or has not the SWP broken with Gilad Atzmon? Surely that isn’t too difficult a question for you to answer?

Fraternally


Tony Greenstein

68 comments:

David L said...

Maybe if they have broken with Atzmon, it's better to let them do so quietly, rather than being forced into a corner, where they might say that they haven't.

Sue Blackwell said...

I think you're right Tony: they HAVE broken with him, and not before time.

Have a look at the programme for this year's Marxism:

http://www.marxismfestival.org.uk/2009/culture.html

Not a mention of Atzmon under the "Culture" section as far as I can see, even in the "Jazz and Resistance" part.

Sue Blackwell

REJ GOCH said...

In the spirit of openess may I ask what you were expelled from I.S. for?

Tony Greenstein said...

I agree with Sue that they have broken with Atzmon, but that really is not good enough. The SWP proclaim they are a revolutionary organisation so they should live up to some of the maxims of revolutionary socialists, i.e. openness.

What is a socialist society likely to be like? I would have thought open and democratic, because if it isn't it ain't socialist. And if you are going to be democratic you have to be open with people, not pretend to have positions you don't have or engage in sleight of hands.

Red Goch asks why I was expelled from the IS circa 1972/3? Ireland. The IS wanted to wind up the Anti-Internment League, regardless of the needs of the fight against the British presence and I disagreed. When I voted against them publicly, i.e. against party policy I was expelled.

They brought up Roger Rosewell, their industrial organiser, to organise the expulsion as branch members weren't very willing to do so! Rosewell later became a bag carrier for Lady Shirley Porter, a member of the SDP Industrial Committee and worked for Aims of Industry (besides writing Leaders for the Daily Mail!), so I felt that I had achieved quite a bit.

I think my response to Sue covers what Dave L has said, viz. it should be open and above board and the SWP should proclaim it because the influence of Atzmon, focussing on Jews per se rather than Zionism, plays into the hands of the latter and increases the tendency of some in the Palestine solidarity movement to look to anti-Semitic 'answers' rather than to imperialism, which Rizzo/Atzmon reject.

Anonymous said...

Face! Bothered? Lewis says Atzmon couldn't 'give a shit'.

Tony face it, nothing you ever say or do will have any impact on Atzmons sucsess.

Tony Greenstein said...

Clearly if Atzmon says he's not bothered then he is! And as for a lack of success, the SWP decision to give him the heave-ho speaks differently. The message is getting out that Atzmon is like the plague.

Anonymous said...

Here is an SWP magasine reviewing Atzmon's last album in late April 2009. I have good reason to believe it was Martin Smith who wrote it.

http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=10799

joe90 kane said...

In the spirit of openess may I ask what you were expelled from I.S. for?- Similarly goch
where's this revolutionary cv of yours you boasted so much about and which you claim your credibility rests on?

goch thinks he smells dirt - its the only thing he finds attractive.

Tony Greenstein said...

Having had a look at the SWP's Marxism 2009 events it is refreshing, as Sue says, to see no Atzmon even in the space for Jazz and Resistance.

REJ GOCH said...

Funny that, when the obnoxious Roger Rosewell came to Swansea to sort us out ( at about the same time )we sent him back to London with a flea in his ear and still they did not dare expel us. I'm not sure what the point of this post is. We all know of your pathological and unreasonable personal hatred for Gilad Atzmon, but what do you hope to achieve with the SWP with your politcal record in I.S.? Do you think your expulsion forms good grounds for them listening to you? Meanwhile, in the real world, Atzmon continues to do more for the Palestinian cause than you could ever hope to do, especially as you seem to spend more of your time trying to undermine his solidarity work than getting on with anything practical to support Palestine. By the way, that was a good review of Gilad's gig in Socialist Review. wasn't it? Oh dear, don't tell me you got it wrong again!

mary said...

Wow, this one is so funny, it's almost worth framing!

Let's look at some stuff just in comments.
Tony's written:
"I agree with Sue that they have broken with Atzmon, but that really is not good enough. The SWP proclaim they are a revolutionary organisation so they should live up to some of the maxims of revolutionary socialists, i.e. openness.

What is a socialist society likely to be like? I would have thought open and democratic, because if it isn't it ain't socialist. And if you are going to be democratic you have to be open with people, not pretend to have positions you don't have or engage in sleight of hands."

Like I said, wow! That is sure rich coming from Tony today. On another thread he gets asked just why he's xxxed out the name of Brian Robinson and why when someone asks him who signed the petition that was a complaint against Gilad Atzmon, he was out there to defend their NON openness, their very Secrecy!
Boy howdy - live up to the maxim of openness and then, And if you are going to be democratic you have to be open with people, not pretend to have positions you don't have or engage in sleight of hands.

It's almost too funny to believe. But the fun doesn't stop there. Apparently, because Atzmon is not playing a gig, they have (I stand corrected, HAVE) broken with him. Wow, is that ever the item to judge stuff on. But that's Sue, and when I wrote about her, I got her statements all on the money. Don't forget Joe, she too is a Palestinian Mother.

I think it would be interesting to know who these very closed people are, going against revolutionary principles and all.. but I think I can guess why a few of them would be hesitant to be publicly accountable for their obsession with Atzmon. They don't have really great anti-Zionist credentials. Look at Brian, he's against the boycott, (just like Shraga Elam, who writes to the director of Yad Vashem for bonafides because he is penpals with David Irving!) Brian also is active in Engage and is a Euston Signatory right along with the Harry's Placers. There is Debbie Maccoby who thinks Jews have a right to Israel. That's not very anti-Zionist, is it. There's Sue who had to take her "Nazi alert" down (after she could not bring off a successful boycott campaign, which is a true shame for the campaign) because she was copying things her Comrades said and she found out it wasn't very cool to say those defamatory things. Who else? The Best activists? What if anything have any of them done? I mean, other than attack someone like Atzmon who is doing enormous work for the Palestinian cause and is greatly loved and admired in the campaign. So Tony will bring out his laundry list of boycotting and harassing and (failing) lawsuits, but FOR PALESTINIANS, what if anything he has done is all in his mind. I never met a Palestinian who thinks positively of him, and in fact, he is the running joke in Palestinian circles. His obsession with Atzmon and me is pretty apparent and pretty unacceptable by hundreds, and I have no doubt that, just like Hajo Meyer said, if that open letter circulated again, he would sign it because he stood by every single word. Just so you know, Tony. You are enormously unpopular in the Palestinian solidarity community mostly comprised of revolutionaries and supporters of resistance and Paletinians.

It's funny (and kind of sad) that Tony's got this obsession that makes his entire existence painted by what Gilad Atzmon's up to. It looks like envy to many of us. Better try to keep it in check, Tony. But Roy Radcliffe got it right when he wrote that article about you and others like you.

Yup, great review in the Socialist Worker.

Tony Greenstein said...

Ah, I wondered when Ms Rizzo would make an appearance. Unsurprisingly she has appointed herself a spokesperson for the Palestinians again. And why not. She is a Palestinian mother as well as an Italian do-nothing (campaigning wise, she's very busy on her blog of course!).

Now if Mary could read AND digest she would know that I didn't say the SWP had broken with Atzmon, if indeed they have, but I will take that as read, because he's not doing a gig with them at Marxism 2009. It was Sue who pointed that out AFTER the event (it's called a chronology my dear Mary).

I made that assumption on the basis of Atzmon's own remarks in the Guardian of March 6th.

As for Ratters, well I saw him at the PSC Conference and he was even more unimpressive than you Mary. And that's saying something.

I think Brian et al can fend for themselves. Whether what you say is true or not I doubt. Brian is certainly not active or involved with Engage. You are also way behind the times, which is not surprising given your rabid anti-semitism!

mary said...

Yes, good, perfect, Tony, keep the libel coming.. it's coming in handy, and you know why!!! Just keep bringing it on.

Your haughty spiel on openness and then your insistence to not say the dubious characters on your petition is just another example of why Tony is indeed the laughing stock, which he is if you happen to be involved in any discourse with Palestinians. They either don't know who you are or they say you are a pox.

Just for curiosity, how would you know what I do or don't do in Italy? Is your stalking obsession taking you there too?

But, someone isn't doing a gig means they have broken and Sue spells it out in all caps?! It's just so logically ridiculous that I can't believe you are using this as proof of anything! If you bother to notice, Summer is the season of music festivals and Gilad is in overseas ones the entire summer, like a working person would be.

but you don't know what work is, do you?

Remember, Sue is a Palestinian Mother, she should get the same treatment.... although she never participates.

REJ GOCH said...

"I didn't say the SWP had broken with Atzmon, if indeed they have, but I will take that as read, because he's not doing a gig with them at Marxism 2009." Good to see your impeccable logic at work again! You really should try thinking before you put your fingers on a keyboard. Strange that I haven't seen a response from the SWP yet. You would think that they would rush to clarify their position for such an esteemed commentator as your good self.

Anonymous said...

Tony I think you've made a mistake. Gilad is going to be very well presented in Marxism 2009.

On Friday 3rd July - 9 pm they will discuss Gilad Atzmon with Chris Searle

http://www.marxismfestival.org.uk/2009/culture.html

Sue, the full of the title of the book you kindly link us to is - Forward Groove: Jazz and the Real World from Louis Armstrong to Gilad Atzmon

by Chris Searle

As an 'academic' you may want to learn how to research slightly better.

joe90 kane said...

...that Tony's got this obsession...- Mary Rizzo wrong as usual.
It's you and the likes of know-nothing rej goch who are obsessed with Atzmon.

goch willingly, and seemingly without being ordered to, leaves no comment of any substance except one which publicly massages the ego of his glorious leader Atzmon.

The ritualised debasement and degredation of this, presumably, former independently-minded human being, continues thus -
By the way, that was a good review of Gilad's gig in Socialist Review. wasn't it? Oh dear, don't tell me you got it wrong again!Yes, the great leader has been made happy. He is satisfied. His brain-dead puerile followers can gloat with the glorious leader's approval.

This group narcissism of these zionist and neo-nazi propagandists fair brings a tear to the eye.

Tell me goch,
how does blaming the victims of the Nazis for the crimes they suffered help Palestinians rather than help zionists destroy Palestine and Palestinians?


Don't forget Joe, she too is a Palestinian Mother. - Is Sue Blackwell an antismetic disseminator and defender of zionist and neo-nazi propaganda like you Mary Rizzo?

'Free mind for a free Palestine' and 'outstanding personality' Mary Rizzo, care to tell me which Palestinians and Palestinian organisations are calling for -

- the 'spiritual de-judification' of the capitalist free-market?

- believe Hitler, David Irving and Atzmon and blame the horrors of Nazi crimes on the victims?

- claim that being Jewish is the same as being a zionist?

If you are as popular amongst Palestinians as you obsessively claim, like the true narcissist that you are Mary, then this shouldn't be a problem.

I have asked you such questions before but apparantly your mind is too busy being free to be bothered supporting and defending Palestinians against the very zionist propaganda you put so much effort into repeating, disseminating and defending.

Maybe that's why you can never actually come up with any bona fide Palestinian notables and institutions when asked to substantiate your claims regarding your popular standing. There aren't any.

No proof, no arguments - merely the empty vapourings of a bunch of hate-filled, self-loving, true rootless cosmopolitans,

REJ GOCH said...

I wonder why you've gone quiet all of a sudden. Could it be the realisation of yet another incredible own goal. If you haven't got it yet. Check the programme for Marxism! I would be surprised if you hade the nerve to put this post up.

Tony Greenstein said...

Goch asks why I have gone quiet all of a sudden. Oh it's probably things like Boycott leafletting in Brighton, going to the gym and for a swim, having a pint, cooking for kids and then going to a party. Unlike Mary & Goch I don't have all day to bitch.

Anonymous says that Atzmon is going to be 'well presented' at Marxism 2009. Fine but he won't be there will be. Now why would that be?

I've had reports for some time that the SWP have broken with him, because his holocaust denial stuff and anti-Semitism just doesn't go down well with Marxists. But it'd be nice if the SWP owned up to having told Atzmon where to get off and why.

Mary asks 'Just for curiosity, how would you know what I do or don't do in Italy?' Well it's obvious. We get no reports of any activity from you, and when I hear of things happening in Italy Palestine wise, not much it is true, there is no Rizzo involvement.

I guess its hard to attack Jews and support Palestinians and have time for a life too Ms Rizzo. As for stalking you. Don't think so. In your dreams!

But Mary, being a simple soul, gives the game away when she says that 'You are enormously unpopular in the Palestinian solidarity community mostly comprised of revolutionaries and supporters of resistance and Paletinians.'

Strange really. There's a large Palestinian community in Brighton and I work very closely with their leaders. I spoke at the demonstration in January which was the second largest I can remember in 30 years in Brighton.

But of course Mary speaks on behalf of all Palestinians, being an unusual Palestinian mother, so she is able to tell us whether or not someone is popular.

Of course it is probably true that I and others of a like mind are unpopular with Palestinian collaborators and other Arabs of a similar mind. So what? There will always be Palestinians who believe that the answer to Zionist racism is anti-Semitism, a ghostly reflection. They are wrong.

That is why because I'm integrally involved in Boycott work in the unions Electronic Intifada asked me to write an article on Histadrut for their web site.

I doubt if anyone can think of anything Rizzo and Atzmon has written which is of any use to the Palestinian movement at all. Ego, ego, ego - that is what the Rizzos of this world are about and Atzmon is in addition acts as a parasite on Palestinian music and poetry. As Mary is also well aware.

REJ GOCH said...

You always miss the point. Why can't you just admit it when you get things wrong. This post was a colossal mistake. Joe Kane's comments are also just embarrassing because he ignores all the point by point refutations that have been made long ago of the claims he makes. As you are taking care to moderate posts on your site don't you think it's time to rein in the childish abuse that Kane seems to prefer to argument? The reason we defend Gilad from your constant attacks is that we have a high regard for truth and we will not allow the constant slanders to go unchallenged. By the way, how is your court case going?

mary said...

Looks like Tony and Joe are blowing a fuse there! It most certainly IS obsession and with the both of us. You spend god knows how much time banging your own drum. No wonder you have no idea of what projects I am heavily involved in. But you wouldn't know about the campaign drive for delisting Hamas and FPLP that I was coordinating with a Belgian Marxist, or the translation work I did for the Liverpool PSC to monitor the EU candidates or any of the other things, because I don't need to brag about them... I just DO them. You call me rabidly anti-semitic. Come out with one thing I have ever printed as such. Just one will do! You can't do it, but you still label, and this is why you are respected by no one, and in fact are considered a sad case. But, I won't stop you from your continual libel. You should know better, given the opinion of the judge, but go right ahead.

Now, what is much more interesting is how you go on and on about openness, and you are covering for people who sign a smear letter and then won't be open about it! I think this alone is the height of grotesque. And add to that, your total absense of logic about Gilad and the SWP... he's not playing, (is on tour) and THEY HAVE broken, you claim... even though they will be presenting an event about Jazz and Resistance that focuses also on his work! It's really amazing that you won't admit to being wrong... you are only always wrong, so I suppose I understand why.

Now, go on with your life. I have never seen anyone so obsessed with other activists in my life as you are. Really something. We have become more important to you and to Joe than the situation of the Palestinians, and that is judging by your interventions.

Hey, I know folks in Brighton too. None of them have a good opinion of you, but know what? I don't care! You dig your own grave without my intervention.

Tony Greenstein said...

Mary asks for just one thing she has printed which might be anti-Semitic. Oh dear, she seems to have a memory like a sieve.

So how about her endorsement of Atzmon’s comment, to wit: ‘When I read Greenstein’s article I realised that Gilad Atzmon is right. "We must begin to take the accusation very seriously..." What accusation might that be? "that the Jewish people are trying to control the Palestinian solidarity movement." [here we go again, shifting focus away from Palestinians, that's what UK Anti-Zionist Jews do best] So the Jewish people trying to control the Palestine solidarity movement is not a variant of the old Jewish conspiracy theory? Actually what Atzmon wrote was:

'we must begin to take the accusation that Zionists are trying to control the world very seriously.'

Or what about?

‘No Tony, you are wrong, the analogy is very simple and I hope that even you can understand it: To let Jews run the Palestinian struggle against the ‘Jewish State’ is as silly as expecting exiled Germans run the British war against Nazi Germany. It's got absolutely nothing to do with being "outsiders and strangers". Moreover Atzmon doesn’t speak about exiled Jewish Germans but rather about Germans as a national entity. Once again, you let your Phobias lead you nowhere.

Greenstein, again and again, insists that it is a Jewish interest (the war against anti-Semitsm) that must be located at the core of the Palestinian solidarity movement. I am pretty astonished that Greenstein is blind enough to expose his Judeo-centric agenda. I am pretty sure that every Palestinian activist is clever enough to spot it.’

My reply on the previous occasion was that I don’t recognise ‘Jewish interests’ or ‘Judaic worldviews’ or any other similar formulation that Rizzo and Atzmon come out with. There is no ‘Jewish interest’. I’m not even going to deal with the nonsense suggestion that I or others, the 5 ‘Elders’ that Atzmon refers to, believe that ‘anti-Semitism’ should form the core of the Palestine solidarity movement.’

As for Rizzo's remark about a ‘Judeo-centric agenda’ well this is what of course formed the core of the Nazi ideology. Not anti-Semitic? Clearly Mary doesn’t appreciate her own irony.
The comparison between German 5th columnists in Britain during WWII ‘running the British war effort and Jews in Palestine solidarity groups is also deeply anti-Semitic and the pretence that the reference was to Germans as a national entity is absurd as the context demonstrates.
Mary Rizzo provides the main platform for Gilad Atzmon's articles which are widely accepted as deeply anti-Semitic.

What Mary is saying is that although she provided a platform for Gilad Atzmon and now cohosts a site with him, she is not herself anti-Semitic. That reminds me of Uri Avneri’s comment, when Sharon was denying responsibility for the massacres at Sabra & Chatilla, because it was carried out by ‘Christian’ Phalangists. He asked whether if a snake kills a child in a cradle, the person who put the snake there is guilty. Most people would understand that Mary’s guilt is the same, if not more than her pet snake.

I'll leave to another day her praise of the Radical Free Press, links to David Duke and the said site on her list etc.

Mary confirms that she is involved in no campaigns herself and at best occasionally services others.

I have no obsession with Atzmon's groupie. It is she who comes to my blog to post, not the other way around!! But then defence of Atzmon seems to be her life's work.

joe90 kane said...

goch-nobody and his never-ending stream of the same empty assertions.
For someone who preens himself on being a self-confessed poet, his comments are as worthless as they are predictable.

Joe Kane's comments are also just embarrassing because he ignores all the point by point refutations that have been made long ago of the claims he makes. -
- Be my guest blow-hard supporter of racists, prove this by producing evidence.

goch-nobody is constantly and repeatedly asked to back up his stream of witless garbage. As if he really needs to be reminded by anyone of standard procedure whe it comes to making claims and proving arguments.

goch-zero is a prime exhibit for what the racist gatekeepers who run the Palestine Septic Tank mean by their utterly meaningless slogan 'free mind for a free palestine'.Try proving an assertion or claim, just for once.


...don't you think it's time to rein in the childish abuse that Kane seems to prefer to argument?-
- This is another one of the stock phrases from goch-zero's limited repertoire of cliched robotic responses (much like rizzo and atzmon themselves).

'Childish' is when you are asked to prove your arguments and don't.

Childish is when you are asked what the racist propaganda of Hitler, David Irving and Atzmon has to do with Palestine and Palestinians, and you don't answer.

Etc, etc.


The reason we defend Gilad from your constant attacks is that we have a high regard for truth and we will not allow the constant slanders to go unchallenged. -
- You have failed to challange any arguments proving Atzmon and Rizzo are, in fact, racists who are exploiting Palestinian pain and suffering in order to disseminate their racist filth goch. This claim above being just another example of your complete failure to date.

So I think it is reasonable to conclude goch-zero, you are one of atzmon's ego-massaging know-nothing windbags, unable to defend the thoughts of your great leader, opting instead to fawn and flatter his self-esteem, willingly and in public too, because you have no other useful function.

Refusing to defend Palestinians against claims they believe and spread neo-nazi propaganda, indeed, defending neo-nazi propagandist such as atzmon and rizzo, only harms Palestinians and their communities.

Even though no bona fide Palestinian notable or institution have asked rizzo or atzmon to make the claim that Palestinians are racists, the antisemitic gatekeepers and racist parasites at the Palestine Septic Tank have freely taken it upon themselves to smear the reputation of Palestinians. They take advantage of the relative powerlessness of Palestinian society to defend itself against outsiders, taking it upon themselves to exploit Palestinian weakness in order to peddle their racist filth, claiming it's for the benefit of their Palestinian victims.
No such benefit has been proven. Quite the opposite as a matter of fact, as if it isn't totally obvious, hence the reason why goch-zero, rizzo and atzmon are unable to defend themselves using good old-fashioned rational arguments.

'sick minds for a sick palestine' ought to be the real slogan of you bunch of brainless, immoral nobodies.

How nice of the self-appointed antisemitic gatekeepers and parasitic racist tapeworms at the Palestine Septic Tank to support and provide proof that zionist propaganda is actually correct, and that Palestinians and their friends are antisemites.

So when zionists allege Palestinians and their friends are antismetic, they won't be making these claims in order to silence their critics. They will be answering their critics truthfully, because it will be correct.



ps
sorry for some of the formatting mistakes but I think the blogger software is running a bug and can't recognise line-endings after html formatting tags get used in the text

joe90 kane said...

Mary Rizzo is asked for proof of her claim she is popular - she provides none.
Presumably then, and easy to presume, rizzo is a liar who is expoiting hapless suffering Palestinians for her own vanity and nefarious racist activities - a true parasitic rootless tribal cosmopolitan.


I just DO them. You call me rabidly anti-semitic. Come out with one thing I have ever printed as such.-
- Does this mean, mary rizzo, that you are finally breaking up your meaningless, publicly embarrassing, ego-fest with your fellow antisemite atzmon?

You seem to be claiming antisemitism exists, whereas the great ego, atzmon, claims it doesn't?

Not even mary rizzo is able to defend atzmon and his gibberish, even when she tries her hardest.

Just like your claims to be defending Palestinians mary rizzo, with friends like you who needs enemies?


Rizzo the antisemitic gatekeeper claiming she isn't racist.

It would take all day to catalogue evidence of your antismetism and your attempts to undermine Palestinian solidarity by your racist activities, as well as your generally spurious attacks and allegations about those who object to your racism.
Just for instance, though, a quick flick through her previous racist sewer of a blog 'PeacePalestine' reveals you naming individuals as 'JEWS' such as one of your favourite hate figure Mark Elf.

Here is the incomparable Charlie Pottins -
-That last is Mary Rizzi, whose website "Peace Palestine" features pictures of Tony Greenstein and three other individuals, with quite different politics, and in case its readers wonders what they have in common, has the simple label "JEW" on each of them. Now that's what I prefer, someone who does not beat about the bush with pretentious pseudo-intellectual arguments, but gets right down to business. That way we know where we are. -
- Two little victories, and one backstabbing
RandomPottins blog
13 Jan 2008


Mary Rizzo and her claims to collaboration, popularity and suchlike used to include the following but which she is now completely silent about, such as -
- Her useless and time-wasting petitions -
- claims she was collaborating with Norman Finkelstein
- Atzmon banned from IndyMedia UK despite the best anti-democratic efforts of his single supporter on the IM UK board
- Atzmon banned from Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign
- no more atzmon articles published on Counterpunch
- no official Palestinian endorsements of any kind despite rizzo's claims of huge popularity

In fact the only official endorsements rizzo gets are from wooly-headed academics, holocaust deniers and fellow antisemites.

The fact that the SWP isn't the most open or democratic organisation speaks for itself - just to say I have the greatest respect for many SWP members I know hence the reason I sympathise with them having to maintain party discipline for the sake of something and someone as ugly and corrosive as atzmon.

REJ GOCH said...

More of the same from Joe Kane. He accuses me of 'windbaggery'. Look at the length of his post and try to find one argument of any substance in it. Forgive me for saying so but it just looks like one long insult ridden rant. You seem to think that if you keep repeating 'anti semitic' over and over again re-inforced by carefully selected quotes ripped out of context then there is nothing else to do. I love your patronising remarks about SWP members. The trouble with inveterate sectarians is that they are so transparent. You will notice that I haven't asked you for your cv. I think you should be allowed to speak for yourself without presenting your no doubt huge list of credentials. You will notice that I don't even question your relationship with Tony G although you are quick to assume all sorts of things about me without knowing anything at all about me. What was that pathetic jibe about poetry all about? If you've got anything useful to say about my writing, especially if you can find a single trace of anti semitism in any of it then go ahead. Cheap throwaway remarks only serve to demean you further.

mary said...

I don't even read Joe's obsessive rant, so won't address whatever crap is sure to be there. It gets boring after the third sentence, and even if I see my name splattered in it, I just don't bother, he wastes his time. It's just offensive and he is a meaningless twat so, if no one else cares about his opinion, why should I?

But I will reply to this bit of Irrelevant Tony:
Mary confirms that she is involved in no campaigns herself and at best occasionally services others.

Where did I confirm I am involved in no campaigns myself????? And what does it mean, She's involved in no campaigns herself and occasionally services others? It makes no sense, whatever the hell it means! The fact that I constantly work internationally and am involved some very big trans-national campaigns at an organisational level speaks for itself. I don't have to make a list of what I do, those who work with me are well aware of it and this is why I am approached continually to be involved in actions, conferences and drives! I don't need to prove anything to YOU, I only have to respond to the Palestinians and to the activists I work with. Why are you always bragging about yourself and then when others don't you use it an evidence that they are doing nothing? It is just stupid! Well, I'll leave it at that. Rej got it right that you got everything wrong, as you always do, and the bitterness is your massive envy. This is how everyone sees it, sorry to say. The fact that people have started a campaign to support Gilad and me speaks for itself. over 500 people (many of them who work with me and Gilad) and Walid only collected signatures for 2 weeks. It indicates how people think, and they are with us, including those you pestered to try to get them to drop support and who told you and Shraga to piss off! Oh, forgot to say, the signatories said they were sick of YOU, that was the point! If Adib decided to do it again, how much you want to bet it would be ten times as many names, I have no doubt. You should be thanking Gilad for your notariety! But of course, please, keep coming out with the stuff, because all of it comes in very handy!! You go looking for a gravy train, you will not find it here!

besides, nothing that you "showed" is antisemitic, and if you don't know there are Jewish interests, where have you been all your life?! Of course there are!!!! Saying so is not antisemitic, denying it is just stupidity and ... a Jewish interest?

make a google search, you will find loads of Jews who have no problem admitting there are Jewish interests, so why should you? Gilad is honest in admitting it and telling people that putting Jewish interests first is wrong and causes suffering.
http://www.jewcy.com/dialogue/2007-10-15/where_should_jews_stand_immigration_aron3

Tony Greenstein said...

Ah yes, Mary is so important that she is involved in 'transnational campaigns'. About what? Well we're not sure but Boycott doesn't get a mention, probably because of her sidekick's opposition to 'book burning'.

They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks and clearly that applies to the terrible twosome. There's another 'petition' on the way from assorted racists, anti-semites, fools and idiots in support of the devilish duo. After all our 'outstanding personalities' need all the support they can get.

I suggest setting up an Atzmon/Rizzo Solidarity Campaign and then all Palestinians can join. After all, compared to Rizzo/Atzmon, the Palestinians don't know how lucky they are.

Pass the sick bag Alice.

joe90 kane said...

Still no change with goch and his limited repetroire of stock cliched responses. He's even pretending to be shocked someone would point this out given his revolutionary status as a self-proclaimed poet.

Ask him for his revolutionary cv which he claims his credibility rests on, and he berates others for asking him to provide proof.

goch supports antisemitic racist such as atzmon and rizzo but he isn't a racist himself, so he claims.


I don't even read Joe's obsessive rant.... if no one else cares about his opinion, why should I? -
- Mary Rizzo asks for proof that she is a racist. When the proof is provided she ignores it - free minds for a free palestine indeed.
So much for Rizzo's claim that she helps run a 'think tank'.


You call me rabidly anti-semitic. Come out with one thing I have ever printed as such. Just one will do! -
- I gave you one example Mary Rizzo and your defence is to ignore it and throw mud. Tony Greenstein's Blog has plenty of evidence which you also choose to ignore, presumably because it is true.

Here is that single example of Rizzo's antisemitism I gave in an earlier comment to which Charlie Pottins was referring to -
- Peacepalestine Offers Prisoner ExchangePeacePalestine
12 Jan 2008


Why go to all the trouble of a petition - what's wrong with doing a bit of rational thinking and proving Tony Greenstein's arguments wrong?

After all, Mary Rizzo (the antismetic gatekeeper responsible for editing and censoring Palestinians) works on a website claiming to be a 'think tank'.

No arguments, no refutations, no proofs - all Mary Rizzo requires is signatures on another petition to say she is right and Tony Greenstein is wrong. How medieval can you get for the forward advanced thinking 'free minds for a free palestine' self-proclaimed 'Think Tank' - thick tank more like.


make a google search, you will find loads of Jews who have no problem admitting there are Jewish interests, so why should you? -
- But the issue is what Mary Rizzo and Atzmon say about Jewish people, not what they Jews say about each other.
Atzmon quotes zionist views about Jewish people with approval. Zionists such as Abba Eban (Atzmon - 'The Politics of Anti-Semitism: Zionism, the Bund and Jewish Identity Politics') and Chiam Wietzmann (Atzmon - 'The 3rd Category and the Palestinian Solidarity Movement'). Atzmon then uses such racist zionist nonsense to abuse all Jewish people everywhere.

Who believes what Hitler said about Germans, Aryans and Nordic types ?
Who believes what the BNP say about British people?
Yet Aztmon and Rizzo believe what zionists say about Jewish people.

Rizzo believes zionist historians claims about the unpopularity of Jewish people. She shares such views with Hitler and David Irving and her beloved obsession-object, Atzmon.


Gilad is honest in admitting it and telling people that putting Jewish interests first is wrong and causes suffering. -
- Atzmon and Rizzo are antisemtic racists who support world jewish conspiracy theories and who put their antisemitism before the interests of Palestinians.

Rizzo describes her work as 'multinational' - this sounds very much like the rootless tribal cosmopolitan that she is.

mary said...

Don't know what transnational campaigns are? Like I said, I don't need to show you a list of what I do, the many folks who work with me are aware of what I do and i don't need to brag about it! For sure you don't know about any campaigns we are working on, because they are not provincial and tiny like yours, and they gather mostly Palestinians and humanists. Ever heard of Qawem Coalition? Ever heard of The Palestine Agency? Ever heard of the Hamas and PFLP delisting? Of the Palestinian Strategy Initiative? Of the ICC campaign with Gilles Devers? Of the BRussels Tribunale? Of the Jury de conscience pour la Liban of Gaza Vivrà, of Palestine c/o Venice?? All of these that I am involved in(and more) as an organiser and translator of their material, without banging my own drum because I just work and don't expect rewards for it. Of course you know nisba about these projects, because those involved certainly wouldn't interpellate you because they know you are just a smear artist and nothing more, if they've even heard of you! As a matter of fact, we are very active in several boycott campaigns. Why you keep insisting we don't support them when your buddies and cosigners of petitions against us, Shraga Elam and Brian Robinson, are actually against the boycotts!!! Why are they never scrutinised, even by Joe, who doesn't prove a thing, just shows what a disturbed personality he has.

Why is Sue so silent? Why is it so hard to admit here is yet another post full of falsehood. Why? Because you are a pisspoor researcher.

Oh, Joe... that's interesting: Jews or those you claim are Jews can mention that there are Jewish interests but others have to ignore it? Weird logic.

Why not answer Rej's question Greenstein: how's the lawsuit going?

REJ GOCH said...

Part1
Let's clear up one misunderstanding from the start. "Anti-semitism" is frequently used in an exclusive sense on this site. According to the Oxford English Dictionary...

Semite
/seemit/
• noun a member of a people speaking a Semitic language, in particular the Jews and Arabs.
— ORIGIN from Greek Sem ‘Shem’, son of Noah in the Bible, from whom these people are traditionally descended.

However many people mistakenly use "anti-semitic" when they really mean "anti-Jewish" and even when they mean "anti-Zionist". In some cases, this is merely a matter of being careless with language but more often than not it is a deliberate attempt to confuse the issue and to enlist the natural sympathy of all of those who are revolted by racial, religious and gender persecution of any kind.

So the accusation, for example, that Gilad Atzmon and Mary Rizzo are "anti-semitic" is illiterate nonsense. They would, of course, be proud to be labelled "anti-Zionist". The question then, is are they "anti-Jewish"?

They are both themselves Jewish, as I understand it, which would, if they were "anti-Jewish", put them into that most heinous of categories - "self-hating Jews".

Ironically, I see that Tony Greenstein has himself been labelled in this way. If you go to the notorious "S.H.I.T." list compiled by lunatic Zionist fundamentalists on the Internet you will find the following about Tony:

"Treasurer of the Socialist Alliance and yet another Marxist commie anti-Zionist ethnic Jewish activist. Greenstein lives in Brighton, England. "If there is anti-Semitism, then the main cause is Israel, which carries out its genocide in the name of all Jews." Thjis British communist and IRA supporter visited Baathist Syria with PLO funding and openly demands the destruction of Israel."

If you want to get an idea of how nuts these people really are read Melanie Phillips' Spectator article at http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3295341/the-jews-of-the-gathering-night.thtml.

The problem is when people, who see themselves as on the Left, start parroting this drivel for their own ends, whatever those ends might be.

REJ GOCH said...

Part2
It's probably unfair to single out Joe Kane in this respect, but he more than most is allowed by Tony Greenstein to post the most outrageous nonsense on this site and contrary to Tony's own stated policy is allowed to get away with gratuitous and offensive abuse. I needn't go through all the examples in his last post. There are so many of them and you can see what I mean for yourself. He goes through the usual claims about the long list of accusations that have been made and not refuted, blithely ignoring the number of times there have been clinical point by point refutations. For example see, http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2005/06/gilad-atzmon-tony-greenstein-debate.html. He then has the cheek to castigate people for ignoring his claims!

The issue, Joe Kane claims, "is what Mary Rizzo and Atzmon say about Jewish people, not what they (sic) Jews say about each other." You would think, at this point, he might elaborate with some examples, but the truth is that he might have a little difficulty in this respect, because they have never made blanket assertions about Jewish people as a whole.

Ah but then "Atzmon quotes zionist views about Jewish people with approval" ( my emphasis ) ! But where are your examples? Quoting from zionists is not the same thing as approving of them.

But, "Rizzo believes zionist historians claims about the unpopularity of Jewish people" and worse still she "shares such views with Hitler and David Irving". Tony, you should be so ashamed to print this, but you keep on doing it. To deny the existence of anti-Jewish feeling even now is like saying there is no such thing as racism any more . Of course, Joe Kane is not talking about the present, he is talking about a time when such feeling was even more openly displayed. To understand that this was so, is not to approve or condone it. Some people fight such racism on a day to day basis, but in order to fight effectively you have to understand when irrational hatreds exist. To understand that anti-Jewish feeling existed is not the same as thinking it was a good idea and a useful weapon in the hands of those who will go to any lengths to exploit it.

"Atzmon and Rizzo are antisemtic ( sic ) racists who support world jewish conspiracy theories". This accusation is made on the basis that they dare to analyse the influence of the Zionist lobby in the British and American power structures. Please don't tell me, Tony, that you don't believe such influence exists.

To cap it all, Joe Kane concludes with the most outrageous anti-Jewish caricature describing Mary Rizzo as "a rootless tribal cosmopolitan", but he hasn't even understood the words he has used himself. If he had, he would never have used them in the context of this argument.

Now given his grasp of politics, it is not surprising that Joe Kane should also use other cheap methods to try and divert from the real argument. His constant whining about my 'cv' is a good example. If we were to take his point, then it would mean no one can contribute their opinions unless they first provide a life history. Of course, he doesn't ask that of anyone else other than me on the spurious grounds that I once mentioned, in passing, that I have been a revolutionary socialist for over 40 years. Apparently "my credibility" rests on this claim. Why can't I be judged on my own words? Should I go before the Star Chamber to justify every breath I have taken before I am allowed to express an opinion? You can see what kind of world Joe is planning for us, if this is the way he thinks now. What was that about my "revolutionary status as a self-proclaimed poet"? Has Joe read anything that I have written? If he didn't like it, what was the problem? I love constructive criticism, but I have no time for cheap thoughtless throwaway one liners.

If Tony, you are still an officer of the Socialist Alliance and this is the standard of 'argument' you tolerate and encourage, then I'm afraid it doesn't reflect well on you or your organisation

Tony Greenstein said...

For Mary Rizzo and friends to call me a 'smear merchant' really takes the biscuit!

This is the person who posts a picture of me with 'Jew' (not anti-Semitic of course) on her site, whose friend Atzmon calls us 'crypto-Zionists' 'worse than Zionists' works with ultra-Zionist Mikey against us etc. and reviews favourably Anthony Julius's attack on Jewish anti-Zionists.

I work with neither Brian Robinson nor Shraga Elam. I've met the former once and the latter never. They are both active in Palestine Solidarity work, do not adopt racist arguments, are highly respected and with whom I disagree (certainly Shraga, I'm not sure what Brian's position is) on the Boycott.

But neither they nor myself nor Joe has ever had the audacity and cheek to try and get Palestinians to sign a petition in our support. That really is chutzpah.

And nor have Shraga or Brian ever attacked the Boycott campaign as 'book burning', which is exactly what the Zionists say. People do have differences over aspects of the Boycott but no one who seriously supports the Palestinians opposes Boycott because one of their political enemies, in this case Sue Blackwell, is one of the key protagonists.

Sorry I'm not impressed with your list of activities Mary. They have next to no political impact even if you are involved in them. Your main focus is defending someone who casts doubt on the Holocaust, believes all Jews are Zionists and who is, in your own words, the real smear merchant.

Tony Greenstein said...

To Atzmon such a phenomenon is just proof of how right Zionism is.

What it proves to me is that Atzmon operates within the framework of Zionism but just as Zionism was a reaction to anti-Semitism, but which accepted its ideological framework. So Atzmon's nonsense is a reaction to Zionism which accepts its framework, the Jewish nation and ethnicity.

Goch claims it is simply a matter of fact that Jews were unpopular. I'm not suggesting that in certain circles, the petit-bourgeoisie of Eastern Europe in particular, that anti-Semitism wasn’t rife. But in Germany pre-Hitler it was waning which was why the Nazis barely mentioned it in the years 1930-33. Even among the Nazi party members anti-Semitism wasn't a live issue for many.

It was fascism, coupled with anti-Semitism which led to the holocaust, not the 'unpopularity' of Jews. Where they were unpopular there was no holocaust because these medieval societies such as Romania, Ukraine, Baltic Republics were capable of no more than the odd pogrom not systematic industrial murder.

As for conspiracy theories. Yes Zionism has influence, though not as much as either Atzmon or the Zionists believe. But Atzmon didn't just assert a Zionist conspiracy, itself pretty dubious, but he wrote in his 'On anti-Semitism essay that

'We must begin to take the accusation that the Jewish people are trying to control the world very seriously.... American Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do try to control the world, by proxy. So far they are doing pretty well for themselves at least.'

Here is the same passage, as artfully doctored by its author (or by an agent with access to his web site) in the last few weeks, since I last checked his wording:

'We must begin to take the accusation that Zionists are trying to control the world very seriously.... American Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews (in fact Zionists) do control the world.. So far they are doing pretty well for themselves at least.'

Indeed Atzmon regularly doctors his own quotes when he realises that he has gone too far for respectable company. Who knows how many times he has re 'edited' his 'on anti-semitism' essay.

Tony Greenstein said...

Where is Sue Mary asks. Good question. Actually he has just come out of the University and College Union annual conference which voted overwhelmingly for a Boycott of Israeli universities (later declared unlawful by the General Secretary) and sent Engage and the other friends of Atzmon into a complete panic.

In 3 weeks time I will be moving a motion at Unison, Britain's 2nd largest union, calling for Boycott of Histadrut. Yet Atzmon, fool that he is, insists on labelling people who are Jewish and anti-Zionist as Zionists - exactly what David Hirsh and David Pike were doing today at UCU.

Try reading his 'Not in my name' for a taste of Atzmon's Zionism:

'by fighting Zionism in the name of their Jewish identity they approve Zionism. … To demand that Jews disapprove of Zionism in the name of their Jewish identity is to accept the Zionist philosophy. To resist Zionism as a secular Jew involves an acceptance of basic Zionist terminology, that is to say, a surrendering to Jewish racist and nationalist philosophy. To talk as a Jew is to surrender to Weizman's Zionist philosophy… as far as Jews are concerned, the demarcation between racial identity and nationalist identity is very ambiguous. (this is from someone who says you won't find a word about a Jewish race in his entire writings!)… Jews cannot criticise Zionism in the name of their ethnic belonging because such an act is in itself an approval of Zionism.

So Mr Goch. When Atzmon calls himself an anti-Zionist I dispute that. He believes that any assertion of Jewish identity is an ethnic identity, a national identity. Not so. It is an assertion of Jewish political identity in contradistinction to that of Zionism. A difficult concept I agree for him but that explains why more and more Jews are rejecting Zionism.

joe90 kane said...

goch from the thick tank proves he doesn't understand a single thing atzmon writes.

After all this time, all his comments in support of Atzmon, goch doesn't have the slightest idea of why he supports Atzmon!

As TG points out and as I point all the time,
Atzmon believes what zionists say about Jewish people. Of course, Atzmon doesn't approve of zionism but he does agree with its claims regarding Jewish people.

..because they have never made blanket assertions about Jewish people as a whole. -
- Clearly you don't actually read atzmon's antisemitic gibberish.
Tell me goch, exactly which Jewish people hasn't atzmon called zionsts?



Goch writes defending Atzmon's use of undiluted Nazi propaganada about the unpopularity of their victims -
To deny the existence of anti-Jewish feeling even now is like saying there is no such thing as racism any more ..... To understand that this was so, is not to approve or condone it. Some people fight such racism on a day to day basis, but in order to fight effectively you have to understand when irrational hatreds exist. To understand that anti-Jewish feeling existed is not the same as thinking it was a good idea and a useful weapon in the hands of those who will go to any lengths to exploit it.-

Here is the offending Atzmon qote -
Hitler was indeed defeated, Jews are now more than welcome in Germany and in Europe, yet, the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago. -
-Atzmon, 'Saying NO to the Hunters of Goliath'

This is an unqualified and unconditional Nazi, neo-Nazi and zionist propaganda. Atzmon repeats unvarnished antisemitic lies. He has no interest in wether Nazi antisemitic propaganda or Tsarist-Okhrana antisemitic forgeries are true or not. Believing Tsarist forgeries and repeating unvarnished Nazi propaganda is irrational, and has nothing to do with any attempt by Atzmon to try to understand racism. He isn't interested in preventing racism but in promoting it by disseminating antisemitic lies and propaganda, and exploiting Palestinian pain and suffering in order to do so.

Associating the victims of Nazi atrocities with Israel is also classic zionist propaganda and used as a justification for the destruction of Palestine and Palestinians.



Why can't I be judged on my own words? -
- but goch, that's exactly what I am doing, and still you continue to bluster and whine rather than providing the proof on which you claim your own personal credibilty rests.

What was that about my "revolutionary status as a self-proclaimed poet"? Has Joe read anything that I have written? If he didn't like it, what was the problem? I love constructive criticism, but I have no time for cheap thoughtless throwaway one liners. -
- You don't have a reputation as a poet goch, so why should I be interested in something that doesn't exist?
Your status as poet rests on your own assertions that you are. I couldn't care less. Much like your revolutionary cv, in atzmon-speak, it's another 'empty signifier'.
I have said nothing whatsover about your poetry, but that hasn't stopped you using the mere mention of it as an excuse to throw an 'artistic temper tantrum'.


Mary Rizzo's standards of what qualifies for racism must be quite high. I presented Rizzo with an example of her antisemtic handy work. This example and Rizzo's stock denial are both tactics used by racist such as the BNP. The BNP single out their victims for special treatment by lumping them all together in a single homogenised amorphous heap, denying their victims any individuality thus stripping them of their right to be treated as human. The BNP also claim this isn't racist.

all the best TG.

mary said...

Tony, just admit it... you spend all your energy attacking Gilad and me. Ask yourself why this is your priority? Then ask yourself why you make excuses for Shraga and Brian who fight against boycotting and Gilad who does not but who rather calls for a boycott on anything ZIONIST, (even you quote Haaretz all the time, so where is your consistency?) Then ask yourself why Gilad gives so much of his money and freetime to raising awareness of the Palestinian struggle. Then ask why Palestinians love him and consider him a brother in their struggle. Then ask yourself why Erdogan used Gilad's words in Davos to condemn the murderous machine of Israel and not some smear piece you have written. Then ask yourself why PTT is an enormous site (we alone have over 1050 who get the digest to their homes and over 5000 in an RSS feed, not to mention the average readership between 5 and 10 thousand a day, depending on what the feature stories are). Then ask yourself why two activists wrote up a petition to ask you to stop harassing us and they circulated it (not us!) and there were people of high calibre signing but there you go, calling them holocaust deniers and anti-semites! How nice of you! Just ask yourself all of these things, then start to think about why you make false claims that even when they are proven false, you will not admit to them.

as to the Tony JEW thing, keep on fooling yourself that we were doing a Yellow star thing. You know (because it has been fully discussed and understood by everyone except you and Pottins, who even when shown that this visual concept was taken from the GILAD SHALIT CAMPAIGN, kept insisting we were making it up. Why not fight the base racism at the core of that campaign? You never, ever ever fight Zionists.

Ask yourself why. We all do. You are considered a Zionist for your attacking of a former Israeli who denounces the injustice and violence and racism of Israel and of all who support tribalistic interests and then pretend they do it for Palestinians. The Palestinians know better, and this is why they avoid you like the plague.

anyway, debating you is a waste of time. You repeat the same lies ad nauseam. You are simply beyond reason. How's the court case going???

Regarding Rej, I think his comments are all correct, and they will be treated with the same disgusting childish banter of Joe. Joe, do us a favour, show us your CV. We never heard of you or any of your activism. Come out with it now.

mary said...

Well Tony, let's at least condemn those who do not support the boycott in an equivalent manner, shall we? You know Shraga campaigns to NOT boycott, but did you know that your friend Brian actually VOTED against it? (counterproductive, he says...) Read it if you don't believe me. Shall you begin criticising him in such a monomaniacal way?

My comment when I voted (only slightly edited) 22 July 2007

Brian Robinson,
Retired psychiatrist, still assessing patients under the Mental Health Act for Social Services
Milton Keynes
Send response to journal:
Re: My comment when I voted (only slightly edited)



I have gone back and forth on this one for the last 2 years or so in relation to the UCU/AUT/NATFHE debates. I've followed all the arguments, attended debates &c. In the end, it's largely a tactical, pragmatic decision, and I've voted No because: (a) it's counterproductive and simply makes rightwing forces more reactionary, and (b) it gives the rightwing too many excuses to do nothing except make accusations of antisemitism because of the singling out issue (i.e. not boycotting other human rights offenders).

There IS however a moral case, but that case is the same for boycotting China, the USA, the UK &c &c ... Also, practically, how on earth could *clinicians* implement such a medical boycott?* The other big unanswered question is, How would we know when the boycott could be finished? Different boycotters have different aims, some just want an end to the Occupation, but others want the dissolution of the Israeli state. This has never been clear.

-------------

* I'm adding this. I was called a little while ago to the A & E dept one night to assess a young Israeli on a visit to this country. Obviously I wont give further details, but if he needed further assessment and/or treatment in hospital, and if I'd been his hospital psychiatrist, at some stage, in the interests of my patient, I'd have had to confer with my Israeli colleague. I put this to a couple of my pro-boycotting colleagues but didn't get a clear reply. I can see how a boycott by, say, research academics might be implemented (indeed we've seen some unpleasant examples in the last year or two) but how on earth would doctors go about a _clinical_ boycott?

- Dr Brian Robinson, Milton Keynes

Competing interests: If being a secular Jew who's also an atheist is a competing interest, then I declare it.

Tony Greenstein said...

Mary can witter on all she wants about Brian Robinson, but he says (no date) that he was in two minds about the boycott. Fair enough. many people have gone through a debate before deciding their position.

However they don't denounce others as 'book burners'

Mary fools herself if she thinks I dedicate all my time to criticising the anti-semitic wing of the Palestine solidarity movement, her and Atzmon. They are very much a spare-time leisure activity.

Since Mary has difficulty in reading I will repeat. My main priority in the next 2 weeks will be to try and get a motion boycotting Histadrut passed at UNISON. Not an easy task since Britain's Palestine Solidarity Campaign leadership is opposed to such a position.

The difference between Shraga and Brian and Atzmon and you is quite simple. They are not racists. They do not disfigure the Palestinian struggle nor lend weapons to the enemy. You and Atzmon, and formerly Israel Shamir (who you also defended) did exactly that. And before you leap up and down I suggest you revisit all your nonsense about the Radical Free Press NOT being anti-Semitic. Remember? A child of 2 could have told the difference.

When anti-Jewish racists associate with the Palestine solidarity struggle they play the part of Zionists. No more and no less.

And yes, I know the Tony JEW thing was taken from the Gilad Shalit campaign. Rather proves my point doesn't it? You and the Zionists are merely opposite sides of the same racist coin.

joe90 kane said...

Tony... you spend all your energy attacking Gilad and me. -
- So why not just simply answer Tony Greenstein's arguments Mary?
After all, that's the honest intellectual and moral course to take.
Instead of answering TG's arguments, Mary Rizzo opts answer Tony Robinson's arguments - a pretty obvious tactic. Tony Robinson isn't associated in the same way Mary Rizzo associates with Atzmon.

The same goes for her refusal to answer my questions about her antisemitic activities she claims are so popular, but yet, are endorsed by nobody and no organisations of any merit.

Mary Rizzo claims she is popualr and gives evidence of her activities which is presumably where her populairty stems from. I've never heard of any of these activities and I doubt anybody else has either.

Although, like evryone else, I do know about the campaign to have Hamas recognised as a legitimate political organisation in the EU. Mary Rizzo seems to be claiming she is some kind of guiding light in this initiative. If she is then this is a lie - which makes her a parasitic rootless cosmopolitan feeding off the pain and suffering of others for the benfit of her own superficial vanity.

I notice Mary Rizzo is still boasting about her self-apponted role as a censor and antisemitic gatekeeper, deciding what Palestinian material should and shouldn't be published on her truly dreary thick tank website.
Imagine the howls of synthetic outrage from Rizzo and her antisemitic cronies if someone Jewish were to undertake such a self-appointed task.


Regarding Rej, I think his comments are all correct, and they will be treated with the same disgusting childish banter of Joe. -
- This is the modus operandi of those who run and the self-proclaimed 'think tank' (a political right-wing term). No counter-arguments. No intellectual engagement with the issues. No insight. Nothing, except, of course, mud being thrown in the hope that people are as thick as Rizzo and her antisemitic brainless cohorts and won't notice how hopeless she is.

Joe, do us a favour, show us your CV. We never heard of you or any of your activism. Come out with it now. -
- Mary Rizzo, when have I ever boasted about what I do or made claims that any credibilty I may have rests on my own personal accomplishments?
I have never made any such claims because I am not interested in exploiting Palestinian pain and suffering for the purposes of persoanl vanity, unlike you.

I have arguments, evidence, facts and a case to put forward. Their truths, or otherwise, have nothing whatsoever to do with their provenance and source. As usual though, I do appreciate the fact Mary Rizzo prefers to employ typically zionist tactics, such as this one, rather than publicly answer my questions.

joe90 kane said...

[continued from previous comment]

Here is what Mary Rizzo thinks of Scottish solidarity with Palestine -
Gilad Atzmon - Send Them To Gaza: Gimmicks and Education -
peacepalestine
26 Feb 2006

Notice Rizzo's image of a Scottish soldier of the British Army, and also the Scottish flag (the Saltire) and the red Lion Rampant (heraldic device of the royal House of Stewart and very much a symbol of Scotland).
Mary Rizzo published this anti-solidarity image because I was then starting to publicly critcise her website which was then starting to be used in a big way by the likes of Atzmon and Rowan Berkeley to disseminate antisemitic filth. Then Paul Eisen turned up on her website.

Previously I had been supportive of Mary Rizzo but because I was no longer able or willing to do so, she willfully and deliberately attacked Scottish solidairty with Palestine because of her vacuous ego and vanity had been outraged.

Tell me Mary Rizzo, as it is your cv that is so precious to you, what have you ever done to support the cause of Scottish-based Palestinian soldiarity, apart from attacking it in a tantrum-fit of pique arising out of your own shallow empty personality and vanity?


as to the Tony JEW thing, keep on fooling yourself that we were doing a Yellow star thing.... this visual concept was taken from the GILAD SHALIT CAMPAIGN, kept insisting we were making it up. -
- This is a stock racist response. Rizzo blames her victims.
It was Rizzo who was pinning yellow stars on others, you sick in the head racist.
If zionist racists do it then its ok for Rizzo to do it. Quite Mary. I agree with you. You do what racists do so you are a racist yourself.
Quite who this 'we' Rizzo is refering to isn't clear, but then, this is Mary's onw personal fantasy world 'we're' talking about here.

Why not fight the base racism at the core of that campaign? You never, ever ever fight Zionists.- Fighting zionism by disseminating antisemitism is like trying to put a fire out by dousing it in petrol.

You never, ever ever fight Zionists.- Screaming skull Mary Rizzo demonically possessed.
Of course Tony Greenstein does fights zionist propaganda. He fights you Mary doesn't he?
After all, you do disseminate racist zionist propaganda as you have just admitted in your use of a Gilad Shalit image.

all the best TGB.


ps
Of Atzmon, Rizzo claims -
I mean, other than attack someone like Atzmon who is doing enormous work for the Palestinian cause and is greatly loved and admired in the campaign. -
- and -
Then ask why Palestinians love him and consider him a brother in their struggle. -

The little people Love their Glorious Leader!

Stalin...er, Gilad I mean, please tell us little people how to make you more happy?

- Pass the sick bag TG!

mary said...

oh, you KNEW it was taken from Gilad Shalit? ahaha! That's a good one! I've still got your huffing and puffing to Alef about how we ever could invent it! And you were sure it was our little design. Well there was a post after that pointing out how racist campaigning it is to campaign as a Jew, and seems you are the only one who didn't get it, not forgetting Pottins, who wouldn't print the explanations, because he like you prefers to stick a lie out to the bitter end rather than eat your crow. So, Tony, yup, we did it because it shows just how really useless your way of campaigning is and how others see it.

Yes, defend Brian and Shraga all you want, just like them, you have Islamophobia, and just like them, you would prefer to put down the Palestinians because they chose Hamas and don't care what people like you would make of it. Yes, Brian voted, Tony, VOTED in a poll of doctors whether or not to go for the boycott and there it is, the man voted with Israel and against the Boycott. Shraga writes about how wrong it is to boycott and you use Israeli material all the time... so who's being consistent here? Atzmon who states that when one is dealing with literary material, one has to think about the way it works, and if you can't see this, then I really wonder how you ever engage in any real political discourse. It is a matter that many have discussed, and why you pick him out is clear to us, and you know it too. You are simply far too envious to be taken seriously. Anyone who disagrees with you or states how wrong you are becomes insulted by you and you pull out of your limited hat all kinds of ridiculous accusations and name calling. Enough, Greenstein. Your 16 readers maybe haven't gotten tired of you, but the rest of us think you are the laughing stock and it's time you changed your tune.

good luck in the campaign even despite it having you in it, which is a sure ingredient for failure!

Tony Greenstein said...

Mary's wittering is unconvincing.

I didn't say at the time I knew that the Gilad Shalit campaign used a 'Gilad Shalit - JEW' poster until Mary pointed it out. I've never pretended otherwise. But how does this make imitating the Shalit campaign's racism right?

Zionism is racist and Mary believes that justifies her own racism!! Ok Mary, if that's what you believe.

I don't have the same relationship with Brian or Shraga that Mary does with Atzmon. I don't run a site with them, I don't post their articles. They are people I converse with and co-operate with. If Brian voted against the Boycott he is wrong. Shraga does oppose the Boycott and I've also told him he's wrong.

But Mary can't tell any of her anti-Semitic or neo-Nazi friends that they are wrong. We were, after all, 'smearing' Israel Shamir when we criticised him. That is the difference. Mary has blind loyalty to Atzmon and it is therefore reasonable to presume that is because she shares his anti-semitic opinions. Indeed more than reasonable as it's on record.

But I confess, Mary has got me at last. She say that 'you use Israeli material all the time'. Which just goes to show that Mary, who's not involved in the most effective anti-Zionist tactic of all, BDS, doesn't understand what Boycott means. It doesn't mean boycotting Israelis because they are Israelis but boycotting Israeli institutions and not collaborating with them. It can mean boycotting individual Israelis, not because they are Israelis but because they are racists.

Does that therefore mean boycotting anti-racist and anti-Zionist for that matter Israelis? Yes if you're a racist like Mary Rizzo. No if you possess a brain. Anti-Zionist Israelis are to be applauded as are people like the Shministim or Yesh Gvul, who come into conflict with the Israeli government, even if they are not anti-Zionists. Mary writes off everyone who is not an anti-Zionist or more likely not a racist like Atzmon.

Of course I use Israeli material. Why not? I 'use' i.e. quote from Nazi material if it demonstrates a point or proves what we have been saying, e.g. that the Nazis favoured the Zionists above all other sections of the Jewish community. I quote racists and reactionaries like Atzmon too, bearing in mind he is no better than a Zionist. If someone says something and it is useful to use, for whatever purpose then that's fine.

I also cite often Haaretz articles, which are from a liberal Zionist perspective. Why? Because they confirm what we are saying.

But if you're only purpose in life is to get Palestinians to support you, by 'encouraging' them to draw up 'petitions' which most people sign for completely different reasons (including some Zionists!) then of course all you will ever do is flatter the most reactionary elements in the Palestinian community. I support Hamas when it fights Israel, not when it fights its own people, working class Palestinians or women. Not being a feminist or a supporter of women's rights Rizzo has no problems in supporting Hamas against Palestinian human rights supporters.

I don't understand though why, if Mary is so deprecating of a blog which presents thoughtful analysis rather than the cheerleading of the 'think tank' that she continues to post here!! Methinks she doesn't like criticism.

mary said...

yes, why do I post here? Maybe because it serves to point out your incosistencies. You go on and on about a relationship I have with Shamir when there is none. I don't even WRITE to him, get his emails, etc., while you actually continue to work with and get people who are actually AGAINST the boycott who you conveniently neglect to pay attention to only to keep repeating that Atzmon "considers it book burning".

Well, in the stressing that one allow as a matter of choice and reflection whether intellectual discourse or journalism is acceptable material for a boycott, (we boycott films, institutes of higher learning, well, why not papers and books? These are the questions one asks and you condemn him for asking and you just see it as a slight little disagreement when your fellow islamophobic comrades actually endorse collaboration with Israel... it's a question of your focus, Greenstein, Shraga and Brian can fight the boycott all they want, but you then should be consistent and not just go against the one person who actually makes many inroads in the discourse and has a wide readership) You should thank Gilad's questioning, for he's left you your precious Israeli Liberal Press with the adverts each and every day for the IDF!!! A boycott, Tony, is a boycott, in my eyes. If you can't see it, then it is time you understood what the word means.

How can you assume I am not feminist or for woman's rights? Again, don't know something, so you INVENT IT!!! Great tactic, so very indicative of how you operate, but the judge could see that!

As to the delisting campaign, you know nothing about it, and obviously, you wouldn't sign such a thing anyway! I worked closely with the organiser to translate and get translated the material is 17 languages and to disseminate it. Banging my own drum.

Why does Joe put down the activities of others when he does nothing himself? This is the question. I don't care that he does nothing! It is his complaining about others that is again... inconsistent!!!

jolly time here with the 16 readers!

joe90 kane said...

Atzmon who states that when one is dealing with literary material, one has to think about the way it works, and if you can't see this, then I really wonder how you ever engage in any real political discourse.- That's right Mary.
When Atzmon comes across Nazi, neo-Nazi, Tsarist-Okhrana, Zionist and Christian antisemitic material he inevitably regards them as the truth.

Even when literary material such as Atzmon's much beloved 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' are obvious forgeries and fakes, to him, they are ultimate truths. When 'literary material' is antisemitic racist propaganda and lies then it is the duty of the doting lovers and followers of Atzmon's to believe him when he claims them as true.

Here we see Goebbels 'big lie' technique in evidence. Atzmon thinks if he repeats racist lies often they might come true. Same with Rizzo who claims of Tony,
You never, ever ever fight ZionistsAtzmon loves his fake Okhrana 'Protocols' so much, he re-used them in a jew-baiting attack in his embarrassingly unfunny 'Protocols of the Elders of London', in which racist screed he lovingly quotes a loony-bin far-right winger going by the name of Rowan Berkeley.

Contra-wise, if Atzmon does come across anti-racist material, such Jewish people encouraging others to the view that anti-zionism and criticism of Israel isn't antisemitic, then it's evidence to Atzmon's paranoid mind of the multi-headed hydra of the international jewish conspiracy, which is everywhere and nowhere at the same time, and which is trying to take over Palestinian solidarity and the rest of the world too.


Some Human Beings are More Human than Others -
- Why ethnic campaigning can be unethical -
- peacepalestine
15 Jan 2009

In the above article by Rizzo she quotes Tony Greenstein objecting to his being de-humanised and turned into an object of racist ridicule and fun -
[Tony Greenstein] ...then emphasizes that this is "clearly racist and anti-Semitic".
Well, finally Tony Greenstein and I can partially agree on something. Gilad Atzmon and I have been stressing for years now that asking people to take action or to influence them by merit of some ethnically-based criterion is simply a racist way of thinking and operating, and Tony finally admits as much.
Quite so Mary Rizzo.
So why do you disseminate antisemitic lies and propaganda, which clearly uses ethnically-based criterion, when you claim it is unacceptable to do so?
And why do you leech off helpless vulnerable Palestinians, themselves being subjected to racist torment and abuse, in order to engage in ethnically-based abusive activities which can only harm Palestinians not help them?

all the best TGB.

Tony Greenstein said...

If you have no relationship with Shamir, why Mary did you defend him so avidly on Just Peace UK?

Or did you forget your posts of 19 April 2005? You were asked numerous times what your opinion of Israel Shamir, an out and out racist, friend of the far-right and anti-semite was. You ducked, you dived, you gave us lectures about 'ritual defamation' but were forced to say that:

'I have seen arguments on either side of the issue, and still my point is: I don't believe he is anti-semitic. But, PLEASE don't bother with your argumentation, because just as much as you have on your view, others have on the other, so I just don't bother any more.... I never saw Shamir on this list, Tony. So, you are again going off on one of your familiar "let the one in the know tell it like it is" tangents.
So, since I don't believe Shamir is an anti semite, it is not "incumbant" upon me to demonstrate diddly squat to you about my support of the Palestinian cause.
Mary: Why should I be obligated to join in on the smear campaign?'

And of course why should you believe that Shamir is anti-Semitic when The Radical Free Press and Atzmon aren't anti-Semitic? Atzmon of the Protocols fame. Atzmon who I first came across when he posted an article about the Learned Elders of London (very innovative) in response to criticism of Shamir & Deir Yassin Remembered.

Fact is Mary you're in so deep it matters not.

As for Brian and Shraga. They are not close colleagues. My relationship with them is entirely different to that of you and Atzmon.

And yes, being a racist and anti-Semite you don't understand the difference between boycotting the Israeli state and its institutions and boycotting individuals. To you it doesn't matter but to those who have just won a vote at the UCU National Conference, and Britain is pioneering the Boycott incidentally, then it is important.

A rag-tag and bobtail racist like you wouldn't understand which is why you have no influence where it counts and most of your life is taken up with impressing Palestinians with how much you sympathise with them.

But hey, with a few more petitions in favour of Rizzo and Atzmon maybe that will be the way Palestine is liberated. The road to Jerusalem is through Mary's ego!!!

joe90 kane said...

TG asks Mary Rizzo -
-If you have no relationship with Shamir, why Mary did you defend him so avidly on Just Peace UK? -

- For the same reason Tony, she never once claimed on JPUK that the victims of the Nazis were unpopular. She would have been thrown out if she had, but then, knowing Rizzo, she would have claimed JPUK were acting like 'jewish gatekeepers' and accused them of censorship.

She tailors her vacuous, inconsistent, intellectually empty and immoral comments to suit her audience.

Another instance of Rizzo's pragamatic opportunist approach to truth, is when she claims she helped track down a former member of the SS. She uses this ploy when she has to fend off accusations of antisemitism, but crucially, uses it only when there are other people present who aren't familiar with her career as a dissemintor and promoter of racism.

Go through Rizzo's antisemitic sewer of a blog 'peacepalestine' and she is quite consistent in this opportunist approach to inflating her ego.

Great championing of causes and personalities by Rizzo and Atzmon include -
- IndyMedia UK
- Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign
- CounterPunch
- Rowan Berkeley
- Israel Shamir
- her 3 petitions
- David Eisen
- UCU and UNISON, see notice of concert at the end of the following article -
- Gilad Atzmon - an open comment to JSF -
- peaacepalestine
22 Oct 2007

All these former causes have been quietly forgotten by these 2 rootless parasitic cosmopolitan egoists. Only when people, organisations and campaigns can be successfully deployed to inflate their empty ego's does Atzmon-Rizzo look with favour on such outsiders. When their usefulness comes to an end, however, they are consigned to orwell's memory hole never to be mentioned again.

I'm sure you have your own list TG of such examples of Rizzo's flexible approach to intellectual honesty.

Mary Rizzo claims there are such things as 'jewish gatekeepers' yet she is her own best censor and gatekeeper.

joe90 kane said...

Rizzo only jumped on the bandwagon Palestine-BDS bandwagon after it became popular. Rizzo and Atzmon were in no doubt that Palestine-BDS is akin to what the Nazis and marked the coming of a second Spanish Inquisition. (Notice Atzmon's Jew-baiting reference to book-burning regimes, which were also responsible for burning Jews as well - Atzmon is so witty and funny sometimes).

Atzmon objected on principle to the Palestine-BDS because for him 'ethics comes before politics' and anyway, the Palestine-BDS was being led by minor British academics.

As Mary Rizzo is such a great supporter of Palestinian solidarity and the Palestine-BDS, perhaps she'll cogratulate Sue Blackwell, and the other minor British academics, for all the work they have put into getting the UCU boycott motion passed, in spite of the best efforts of Atzmon and his fellow zionists at Engage to see it defeated.

I could also mention the Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign's involvement with the Scottish Trades Union Congress and the recent STUC passing of a boycott motion. However, as the SPSC denounced Atzmon after he gave a talk then obviously they are out of favour with the two egos. As is myself hence the attack on Scottish solidarity with Palestine.

Maybe Mary Rizzo will congratulate Scottish solidarity and its marvellous achievements on behalf of their Palestinians sisters, brothers and comrades - despite Atzmon's denunciations of SPSC and Rizzo's own smears against the good name of Scottish folk implying we are all no better than British imperialists in the uniform of the British Army.

Of course Mary Rizzo supports equal rights for women, especially when it comes to herself - but not when it comes to Palestinian women whom she's quite happy to see deprived of their rights under religious fundamentalist regime.

Mary fully supports Hamas but also fully supports feminism. After all, ethics comes before politics, er....and all antisemitic forgeries are true.....she isn't antisemitic, after all, antisemitism is an empty signifier.....blah blah never-ending rizzonian logorrhoea...

mary said...

I don't even read more than a few lines of Joe's it's just too repetitive. I am quite convinced he's got a mental disorder, so on to the part that is slightly interesting... That people in JPUK believe that Jews were popular in Germany prior to the attempts to exterminate them. God, (or shall I say Gott?) Everything I ever was taught when I was a child and beyond, especially from my relatives who ended up feeling the "love" right there in the middle of the Third Reich, was that "Germans hated us". I wonder where in the world Joe ever believed the contrary. I wonder why he thinks JUPK people would have been raised with a different opinion. Perhaps they were too far away from the reality? Who knows. But that's a question for his analyst, not for me. Now, onto the bit about Shamir.

I was asked to "disavow him" or to "dissociate myself from him". First of all, if I am not an affiliate, I can't even do either of these things. This is pure and simple logic. Fact is, I don't read and never had, Shamir nearly as much as Tony and the JPUK people did. What I read, as the same with the Radical Press that Tony hates so much... he's obviously read more of it than I have, is in his opinion Anti semitic, and he is going to carry on like a child until everyone in the world will crusade against these people.

Sorry, I have other ways to spend my time. I don't think it's so wise to spend trying to get the world to think like I do. I expect them to be big enough to make up their own minds without me forcing them into denouncements.

Oh, btw, if almost 600 people, most of them top campaigners, signed an open letter asking tony to quit the obsession and abuse he's got, of course he takes it all hard and of course his campaign raged more than before. It must hurt to know that only 33 people will sign a smear letter, (who he weasles out of saying he doesn't know them that well, or some other excuse) I imagine he's got Joe who admits he doesn't do anything, while demanding CVs off of others, then there must be Debbie Maccoby who says that Jews have a right to a Jewish State... that sort of thing.

I can't blame him for feeling crappy about it and being obsessed. But Tony, seriously, you do tempt people to start another petition. Three people have said they want to start one, and so far I've said, no, it does no good, just forget it, but who knows? Don't tempt your fate, Tony. You may find out more people can't stand you than last time.

Tony Greenstein said...

Mary defended Shamir against a 'smear' campaign as I have already stated. She defended the Radical Free Press, which was so obviously anti-Semitic (Jewish porn, J this etc.) that it would be obvious to anyone who wasn't already a racist.

Jews were the targets of the Nazis not because of their unpopularity but because of the Nazi symbiosis of the Jewish Bolshevik. Something Atzmon hasn't been shy of putting forward. Indeed, if Mary read anything other than her favourite loon's scribblings, and I have already cited the premier academic in the field, Ian Kershaw, then she would know that anti-semitism in Germany was declining as the Nazis got stronger. Counter-intuitive but there you are.

Or maybe the 'euthenasia programme' in which up to 100,000 German non-Jews were murdered was on account of their unpopularity? Some of us would say racism allied to fascism, but then since Mary hobnobs with supporters of Eisen, Shamir and of course Atzmon himself she wouldn't understand much about fascism. That her friend Susan Scheidt, who I soon shut up on the Alef post when she tried to defend the ethnic German Nazis, co-supports her pathetic little petitions is no surprise.

I don't really case if 600 fools sign a petition. The last one clearly showed that most people didn't understand what they were signing, some were Zionists, others racists and fascists and a few just signed up lunatics. Take your pick.

Mary, who is quite thick beneath the veneer doesn't really understand that it's not me the petition damages but her!!! Getting people including Palestinians to sign a petition in support of themselves is pathetic even for Rizzo.

So please Mary, make my day.

mary said...

You "shut Susanne Scheidt up", (and now you brag about it....Susanne is one of the most active and respected activists Europe has. I would be careful bragging if I were you.) You bullied Hajo Mayer (a Holocaust survivor who told you he knew damn well what he was saying and would sign every single word any time and even more so after your harassment of him. You bullied an old German translator of Gilad's who was even threatened by Shraga, it was sickening. We were all appalled by this behaviour, what a reaction to something you don't care about! Guenter Schenk had to announce to his mailing list that the harassment that you and Shraga were giving them was outrageous and your "reputation" as a certified nut was well-known in European activist circles. I guess it's more convenient to forget that! You started to hassle and insult Palestinians, then call them names, then you got to the academics, to the professors, to the editors, to the people who run a site dealing with Justice issues for Palestinians, to bloggers, and down down through the list. Try to get a grip.... people simply don't jump when you shout at them and they simply can't be "shut up" because (being a gatekeeper, this is your job) you think this is the way to treat other human beings and activists. And, again, I just don't go for smear campaigns, and no one is going to pressure me into "denouncing someone", because that reeks of utter fascism.

So Tony, try to realise that, differently from you, 99% of the other people involved in sites and activism have far better priorities. We don't think it is a great idea to harass people. We encourage people to think for themselves, to formulate their own judgement and we certainly don't hold any sword of damocles over the heads of anyone. We don't presume, as you do, that we are the greatest or best or that everyone who thinks differently from us is racist, evil, (etc., unless they show it, like you do with your racist comments which generalise about Blacks and Muslims, and we do take the piss out of inconsistent and poor researchers like yourself). We tell people what we think, but we don't try to "shut them up". That's pretty fascist, don't you think? This is why you understand fascism, you use its mechanisms as a matter of course.

and you MUST be joking if you deny that there was racism against Jews prior to the Holocaust! Do you REALLY believe that? I mean, it basically contradicts almost everything we have ever learnt. How is it that my entire Jewish kin was restricted from leaving the ghetto and at a certain point, could no longer work? It seems to eliminate any kind of claim whatsoever about anti-Semitism, and that indeed would be a discovery. Since you think you know this, I challenge you to do something with your head and write the definitive study about the lack of anti-Semitism and the great equality and popularity of Jews in pre-War Europe. It would be a ground-breaking study.

So, this is quite interesting, actually... You seem to live in a parallel universe and we would all like to be part of this amazing world that you have discovered. Make My Day.

REJ GOCH said...

It is interesting to study Joe' technique. First of all his mastery of logic is second to none. Monkeys like nuts. Nuts means 'crazy'. Therefore monkeys like being crazy!
Mary showed a picture of a British soldier together with a Scottish flag. The Scottish flag is a source of pride to Scots. Therefore Mary is being 'racist' towards Scots! You have to read it to believe that it was written!

Secondly he avoids issues like the plague. When I present him with the standard definition of 'anti-semitism' and question the way it is misused on this site, he just ignores it as if the point had never been made. Is this malicious intent, or is he just stupid? It's up to you to decide.

Thirdly, he is fond of accusing everybody else of being 'Stalinist' on the one hand or of using the Goebbels big lie on the other, but when it comes to re-writing history or rippings words out of context to damn the enemies of the state, he proves himself to be a skilled practitioner of the black arts. We must now believe, according to him, that there was no anti-Jewish sentiment in the run up to the Holocaust and that this was merely an invention of the Nazis. He does not seem to understand that the existence of anti-Jewish feeling was not an excuse let alone a justification for what was to follow and he cannot grasp how important it is to understand how fascist ideology fastens upon convenient scapegoats in an effort to advance. All that is important in his view is to twist history to suit whatever argument he is trying desperately to put together.

Fourthly, while he professes some kind of socialism, he is at heart an elitist, hence his absurd demands that everybody else, except himself, of course, must earn the right to speak by proving their 'credentials'.

Fifthly, he views solidarity work for Palestine as some kind of macho competition, in which you constantly have to boast about how good you are compared to everybody else. I have always found that those who boast the most have contributed the least.

Sixthly, because his own arguments are so weak, he constantly has to try to shift the ground somewhere else in a vain effort to distract. I did not raise the question of my writing. He did and when I invite him to justify his snearing, he accuses me of throwing an 'artistic tantrum'. You can add this prejudice to the long list of prejudices which seem to afflict him and pop up like tics whenever his fingers touch a keyboard.

You have to ask yourself why Tony Greenstein allows Joe Kane such freedom on this site? Tony claims to filter out gratuitous abuse on the site, yet Kane's contributions are peppered by childish invective and no attempt is made to restrain his enthusiasm. His arguments are so weak as to be embarrassing and yet there he is time after time making a fool of himself with Tony's blessing. I really don't understand why Tony does it, but he should be aware that by his 'friends' he is known.

joe90 kane said...

I don't even read more than a few lines of Joe's it's just too repetitive. I am quite convinced he's got a mental disorder, so on to the part that is slightly interesting... -
- People who don't support Rizzo's antisemitic exploitation of Palestinian pain and suffering must have a mental illness.
Quite Mary.

Mary Rizzo claims she doesn't take any notice of my questions. This is for the simple reason she can't answer them. If she did take notice as any sane person would who is interested in Palestinian solidarity and intellectual discussion and debate, which flows from it, rather than promoting their own ego and self-esteem, her self-obsezsed logorrhoea would dry up immediately.

However, if I am so insignificant and below your notice Mary then it really should be no problem for you to prove me wrong. Anyone who cared about truth, and by extension cared about the plight Palestinians, would do just that. I would and do take this course, which is why I am proving you are a racist, divisive, anti-intellectual, immoral anti-solidarity waste of space.


Mary claims Jews were unpopular in Europe under the Nazis - does that mean the Nazis were telling the truth about their victims and that zionist propaganda is also true?

If Jewish people were unpopular, Mary, then how do you explain the lack of popularity amongst Germans for Kristallnacht and the fact the Furhrer had to be distanced from this particularly infamous pogrom, and Goebbels personally took the blame and called it off the next morning as soon as he could?
How do you explain the fact nothing like this ever occurred again in Nazi Germany?

How do you account for the fact Hitler's speeches between 1930-1933, when he was addressing the wider German public and not his cronies in the beer-kellers of Munich, rarely mention antisemitism ?

Or how about the public unpopularity of Brownshirts beating up Jewish people in Munich city centre just after Hitler became Chancellor?
Munich being the capital of Bavaria, the home of the Nazi Movement, one would assume there would be no public outcry of this barbaric violence. Quite the reverse.

Mary Rizzo knows as much about the history of inter-war Europe as she does about the history of the development of Palestinian national consciousness, zero.

She merely mouths Nazi and zionist propaganda and lies about Jewish people. Much in the same way Christin antisemitism and Tsarist-Okhrana forgeries are true and explain the reasons for the unpopularity of Jewish people, then so is zionist and Nazi propaganda true about the unpopularity of Jewish people in inter-war Europe.

joe90 kane said...

I imagine he's got Joe who admits he doesn't do anything, while demanding CVs off of others.... -
- Mary Rizzo's fragile ego is starting to crack up.
It was you who demanded I prove myself Mary. Not the other way round. I have already stated that I don't make any claims about the worth, or otherwise, of what I try to do to help others.
I don't claim my credibility rests on my my past performance.

It is you and your cronies who make such claims in order to try and justify your racist exploitation of the relatively defenceless suffering humanity of Palestine.

Parasitic racist rootless cosmopolitans such as yourself Mary, have to employ such ego-centric tactics because you are not attached to any local solidarity efforts. You are adrift and cut-off from, in your case, Italian-based solidarity.

You rarely report news or take anything to do Italian solidarity. Much as you ignore Italian solidarity so Atzmon in the UK actually spends most of his time undermining UK-based solidarity, attacking its members, organisations and initiatives with his antisemitic pro-zionist abuse.

The only news worthy of report by any of the two of you is when it flatters your own egos. 'Gilad's Choice' on the Thick Tank being a classic solipsistic narcissistic example of typical atzmon-speak. 'Gilad's Choice' always features himself. Since when was there ever a real threat atzmon would choose someone other than his own self-inflating ego as his own choice?

Instead of congratulating the likes of the Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign, and its involvement the recent Scottish Trades Union Congress Boycott motion Mary Rizzo instead, prefers to publish made-ip anti-Scottish propaganda images on her piss-poor antisemitic website.

Instead of congratulating Sue Blackwell and the UCU on their boycott motion. Mary Rizzo continues to apologise and defend the utterly insupportable Atzmon who denounces UK solidarity with Palestinians as a form of 'book-burning'.

Mary Rizzo claims she rarely takes any notice of me, which might be true. She does notice me, however, when she goes out of her way to undermine Scottish solidarity. She notices me enough to try to damage Palestinian efforts to build solidarity with Scotland.

I support Scottish and UK solidarity - what do you do Mary Rizzo, apart from trying to undermine them from afar in Italy?


I can't blame him for feeling crappy about it and being obsessed. But Tony, seriously, you do tempt people to start another petition. Three people have said they want to start one, and so far I've said, no, it does no good, just forget it, but who knows? Don't tempt your fate, Tony. You may find out more people can't stand you than last time. -
- Mary Rizzo, the self-appointed antisemitic gatekeeper of Palestinians, threatening others to stop their intellectual criticsm of her.
So much for her claims to be running a 'think tank' - this is her ultimate argument. Threats of another poxy time-wasting petition supporting her 'outstanding personality'.

ps
I forgot to mention Rizzo's collaboration with Norman Finkelstein, which she was cock-a-hoop about at the time.
Being Jewish what was Rizzo so delighted about collaborating with a known zionist - jewish and zionist are one and the same for her and atzmon, or had she forgotten?

Tony Greenstein said...

I'm not going to reply to this in any depth. I have no recollecton of Guenter Schenk, still less have I harassed him. Yes I question Hajo Meyer about aligning with holocaust deniers and anti-semites but that is his decision if he wants to do so.

I have neither 'shut up' Susanna Scheidt nor have I bragged about so doing. Mary seems to have a strange definition of 'harrassment' 'shutting up' etc. If you disagree with anyone she agrees with then that is harassment So I disagreed with Susanna, I posted twice on the Alef list, she responded once and that was it.

Perhaps Mary, who boasts of Jewish family members, can explain why her hero Atzmon was reported thus on the site of the notorious Adelaide Institute:

‘A few days ago, on 27 November 2005, Gilad Atzmon introduced the most radical blow that has as yet been struck against the political indoctrination forced on us.
This is to be found in Exhibit No. 1….He describes the historiography of the Second World War and Holocaust, … as a complete falsification invented by Zionists and Americans. He shows that the real enemy was not Hitler but Stalin.’

And of course there is a German report of a concert by Atzmon, which Kristoffer Larson reported to me:

There was a ‘heated debate between the writer and the audience in the course of which several members of the audience left the hall under protest. Atzmon referred to the historiography about the World War II and about the Holocaust such as we know it as a complete forgery initiated by Americans and Zionists. According to him the true enemy was not Hitler but Stalin. According to Atzmon.’

No doubt Mary will be denying that Atzmon is a holocaust denier, despite thinking that Paul Eisen's 'Holocaust War's is a 'great text' and his consorting with the main organiser for holocaust deniers (sorry revisionists!) 'Lady' Michelle Renouf.

As I also explained Mary has difficulty understanding the simplest concepts. Yes there was clearly racism against Jews pre-WW2. But it differed in different countries and was often a vehicle by which the ruling class could divert popular anger onto a visible minority, as was done with the Gypsies.

Were Jews therefore unpopular. It depends. In Germany Jews were not particularly unpopular. This does NOT explain the Final Solution. Anti-semitism was far more rife in Eastern Europe and the Baltic states, something which the Nazis used and channelled for their own purposes.

But Mary doesn't understand the difference between 'unpopularity' and 'racism'. And that is the measure of her response.

joe90 kane said...

Poor goch's back.

I'll remind goch again, the long-time supporter of atzmon-rizzo, of his complete and utter mis-understanding of what atzmon and rizzo have been spouting on about all these years -

The issue, Joe Kane claims, "is what Mary Rizzo and Atzmon say about Jewish people, not what they (sic) Jews say about each other." You would think, at this point, he might elaborate with some examples, but the truth is that he might have a little difficulty in this respect, because they have never made blanket assertions about Jewish people as a whole.

Ah but then "Atzmon quotes zionist views about Jewish people with approval" ( my emphasis ) ! But where are your examples? Quoting from zionists is not the same thing as approving of them.
-
- rej goch comment
27 May 2009 17:01

I'll also ask you again goch,
care to tell me which Jewish people atzmon-rizzo aren't refering to when they claim all Jewish people are zionists?

Whether atzmon approves or disapproves of Chaim Wietzman's zionist views on what constitutes the ideal 'Jew' isn't the issue. The issue is Atzmon believes Wietzman's zionist definition to be true and then uses this definition to claim all Jewish people conform to it.

Hitler made similar statements about what his ideal German (or Aryan or Nordic type), but I don't have to believe him, and neither am I entitled to use Hitler's views as an excuse to abuse other people, no matter who they are.


"Atzmon and Rizzo are antisemtic ( sic ) racists who support world jewish conspiracy theories". This accusation is made on the basis that they dare to analyse the influence of the Zionist lobby in the British and American power structures. Please don't tell me, Tony, that you don't believe such influence exists.rej goch comment
27 May 2009 17:01

- My argument is based on Atzmon claiming that antisemitic forgeries, such as the Tsarist-Okhrana 'Protocols of the Elders' which claim there is Jewish conspiracy, are true.

I never mentioned zionist lobbies or power structures in America or Britian or anywhere else goch. Like everything else you spout, it's another part of your own made-up fantasy world.

The rest is just standard boilerplate goch - not much different from rizzo's tosh.

mary said...

Tony: That her friend Susan Scheidt, who I soon shut up on the Alef post when she tried to defend the ethnic German Nazis, co-supports her pathetic little petitions is no surprise.

Tony, just a day later: I have neither 'shut up' Susanna Scheidt nor have I bragged about so doing. Mary seems to have a strange definition of 'harrassment' 'shutting up' etc. If you disagree with anyone she agrees with then that is harassment So I disagreed with Susanna, I posted twice on the Alef list, she responded once and that was it.
***
So, if Tony denies what he's written just a DAY prior, is it any wonder it is a waste of time to engage at all with him? He can't keep track of himself!

Tony Greenstein said...

How amusing. Mary thought she'd caught me out! 'fraid not.

The normally accepted definition of 'to shut up' means to silence, to prevent from speaking. However it does also have a slightly different meaning from taking active steps to physically preventing someone speaking out ie shutting them up.

Now I realise that Mary's head has probably gone into a spin already. But the other definition is to produce such devastating a response or evidence that the person themselves is unable to respond because they can't think of a convincing answer. Yup you've got it. My use of 'shut up' was the second version.

Mind I also got Mary to shut up about Shamir when I quoted her feeble efforts to defend Shamir by claiming he was the victim of a 'smear' campaign.

It's a good job Mary knows nothing about linguistics or she'd be in a right pickle!

Tony: That her friend Susan Scheidt, who I soon shut up on the Alef post when she tried to defend the ethnic German Nazis, co-supports her pathetic little petitions is no surprise.

Tony, just a day later: I have neither 'shut up' Susanna Scheidt nor have I bragged about so doing. Mary seems to have a strange definition of 'harrassment' 'shutting up' etc. If you disagree with anyone she agrees with then that is harassment So I disagreed with Susanna, I posted twice on the Alef list, she responded once and that was it.
***
So, if Tony denies what he's written just a DAY prior, is it any wonder it is a waste of time to engage at all with him? He can't keep track of himself!

REJ GOCH said...

Why can't Kane address even one single point I made in the last post? If I needed another practical example of what I have been talking about then his latest post was a perfect one. To be able to conduct an argument you need someone who will respond to precise points, but I suspect you are more interested in shooting your mouth off than actually putting together a coherent case.
In case you didn't understand I have criticised the entire way you misuse ideas and misrepresent views in order to concoct a fantasy that exists only in your own mind. If you think I am wrong then answer my points and prove it, but please don't repeat the same old nonsense over and over again unless you don't care if your vast readership is falling asleep.

mary said...

Tony, you are so embarassingly ignorant, it is sad you have to climb all over mirrors to define "to shut up". You picked the words, and now you think you can wiggle out of them? You don't get away with it here with such ridiculous "explanations", and Susanne has written a very interesting and concise answer to your claims, and the major lack of any comprehension of terminology seems to slip your memory, but I won't share it with you, since you were not on the mailing list that was discussing your lack of research abilities, however, it is clear that you have no understanding of history and if you don't have a grasp on linguistics, as so clearly illustrated here, thinking you need to define "to shut up" to someone, then it's not up to me to educate you on all the rest. I would advise a trip to Lourdes. You're something of a lost cause. Needless to mention the stuff from Kris that you quote was also in the past demonstrated and debunked. I hate to repeat myself to your repeated lies, so look it up, you'll find it.

Tony Greenstein said...

I knew Mary wouldn't get it. It's one thing being thick, it's another thing to have to feel the need to advertise the fact!

Subtlety is something Mary doesn't do.

I shall leave the Scheidt to another day.

How interesting. A mailing list devoted to my research activities. No doubt chaired by the chief ignoramus himself. And Mary tantalisingly mentions a response from the Scheidt that she won't send me! Don't say it's covered by the Official Secrets Act. I thought knowledge was universal, at least that's what Atzmon claimed when attacking the Academic Boycott for being book burners.

I thank Mary for her kind suggestion of a trip to Lourdes, but having my kids at a school named after the folly is more than enough. Still it's nice to know that despite her Jewish roots, Mary Rizzo is at heart a good Catholic girl with a nice spice of anti-Semitism to accompany it.

mary said...

He says Shut Up, then he denies it, then when put with the evidence in front of his face, he comes out with some roundabout "interpretation" of it and now is irritated that others actually do discuss things WITHOUT HIS APPROVAL! Right Tony, just like you have your little Mailing Lists that discuss politics, activism, etc, so do many others. We all think it's normal, don't you? However, your curiosity is grand, and so here is one excerpt of a missive:

Tony Greenstein all too obviously suffers from obsession with anti-semitism. This might be acceptable, if only it were supported by sound historical knowledge, but when it's reduced, over and over again, to the obsession with Gilad Atzmon and Mary Rizzo - to the extent that he divides humanity into supporters of anti-semites, meaning those two people, and the rest - it becomes so utterly ridiculous that it isn't even worth a reply. I recall my last exchange with him, when I cautioned him against using the term "Volksdeutsche" referring to some 16 million of ethnic Germans citizens of eastern European countries and the Soviet Republic, since the term had been coined by the Nationalsocialists within the frame of their own expansionist, racist politics. I remember he brushed my considerations aside quoting one single episode of one particular, small region, without bothering to specify the particular circumstances. No serious researcher would do such a thing, because doing so one can prove anything one wants (just think about the thesis that "Italian workers are voting Berlusconi": would it be sufficient to expose the electoral results of one small province in Italy, to draw such conclusions ? without exposing likewise that in that particular small province the candidate was - by hypothesis - a brother of a milliardaire big-shot that accounts for thousands of jobs ?). If Tony Greenstein chooses to interpret my non-reply as proof of his power to shut me up, then he reminds me of the little dot on the line that pumped himself up with so much of air that it finally grew standing out as a big fat zero.


That should whet your appetite. Of course, now Susanne will be the next victim on your road to attacking, as she already is, and don't think people don't notice that this is quite pathological, nevermind that she is considered to be the creme de la creme of European activism and those in Palestine who work with her as well, (and you will start to attack Al-Awda now???) consider her to be a wealth of knowledge and reason. Certainly, she needs no lessons in linguistics from you, as she is fully fluent in 4 languages, while you struggle with just one.

Lourdes maybe wouldn't do you much good after all, you have to believe there is something greater than yourself for it to work, and in your case, that's impossible. It was worth the shot, though. Sometimes miracles do happen!

joe90 kane said...

I think you'll find Tony
that according to Richard Wilson aka rej nullity, Mary Rizzo isn't Catholic but is in fact Jewish.

You'll also find that the Tsarist forgery 'The Protocols of the Elders' are in fact historically true. So Mary Rizzo and her secretive chums are correct, viz -
...since you were not on the mailing list that was discussing your lack of research abilities, however, it is clear that you have no understanding of history....

And anyway, when it comes to the really important stuff to do with Palestinian solidarity (not a popular phrase on the parasitic Thick Tank) you don't know the real meaning of 'shut up'.

All cutting edge stuff, I'm sure we all agree, from the mindless vanguard at the Sick Tank who practice what they preach, 'free minds for a free palestine' - fact free, reality free, parasitic irresponsible vicarious free-loaders whose vile racism and support of religious fundamentalism doesn't hurt them but hurts Palestinians etc etc


Mary Rizzo's years of endless comments and lies about nothing except her own empty racist ego - her secret mailing lists - her substantial collection of blog posts - her petitions naming herself as an 'outstanding personality' which she herself signed (!) - her empty boasts about her popularity with Palestinians and yet she cannot name one single Palestinian notable or organisation to substantiate her claim - etc, etc, on and on - but yet to her, Tony Greenstein, you are the one who is the lost cause.


TG, I hope the forthcoming UNISON boycott vote goes as well as the Scottish Trades Union Congress boycott vote did, and as well as the UCU boycott vote, for which 'minor academic' Sue Blackwell was a leading light.

I don't have to tell you this but I will anyway as it is always a delight to repeat - you have the full support of the Palestine-BDS behind you. An umbrella organisation which reads like a Who's Who of the great and the good of Palestinian society at home and abroad in its diaspora.

Tony Greenstein said...

Thank you for your support Joe. But in UNISON the Exec. is opposing breaking links with Histadrut and don't forget that the leadership of Palestine Solidarity Campaign in the form of its TU Officer Bernard Regan also oppose a policy of breaking links. So we'll have to see how it goes.

As for the Rizzo where does one start? People don't need my approval, nor have I suggested otherwise to form their own e-mail groups. But since Mary referred to them then I comment.

Ms Scheidt is wrong on just about everything.

i. I don't divide humanity into those who are and aren't anti-Semitic.

ii. I do recognise that anti-Semites play into the hands of the Zionists, which is why people have suggested that both Atzmon and Shamir have a relationship or worse with Mossad.

iii. Ms Scheidt states that I quote a single episode of one small region. I cited the Sudeten Germans of Czechoslovakia. There were about 3.2 million ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia, which makes up 20% of ethnic Germans, according to Scheidt's numbers. Hardly insignificant. The last free elections of 1935 when over 60% of Sudeten Germans voted for Heinlein's Sudeten German Party. By 1938 in the last elections this was over 90%. Insignificant, a single episode? Hardly.

I'm no expert in the history of the ethnic Germans. It is not in my field of research. Being the daughter of one I'm sure Ms Scheidt's knowledge is greater than mine but then again my knowledge of the perfidious role of German settlers in the rounding up of Jews, their role in combatting the Slovak national uprising of summer 1944 etc. means that Ms Scheidt can't rely on what happened to her father as an excuse for whitewashing the role of German settlers in the Slavic countries.

But Mary is right (for once). Miracles do occasionally happen and I await the miracle entailed in her summoning up the courage to disagree with Atzmon. However holy water is unlikely to produce such a response, despite the steam that will no doubt be given off when it makes contact with her!

REJ GOCH said...

I see Kane ignores my challenge yet again and comes up with this whopper referring to me-
"You'll also find that the Tsarist forgery 'The Protocols of the Elders' are in fact historically true."
Put your money where you mouth is. Find one instance where I have said this, otherwise you are going to have to make yourself familiar with union rules concerning defaming other members!

joe90 kane said...

Go and boil your head Wilson,
you utterly moronic waste of space, or go and massage atzmon's ego - either way, they both amount to the same thing and all you're good for.

REJ GOCH said...

I see Kane has given up completely and his latest post is the most childish response I have yet seen on this site and that is saying something. Where does your much vaunted policy on gratuitous abuse stand now and what is more where do you stand legally for permitting libellous material to be posted?

Tony Greenstein said...

My dear Goch, as you well know I am opposed to abuse - gratuitous or otherwise. Not that I've seen any from Joe, who seems to be a model of politeness.

Your problem is that you hang around and keep defending those who do believe in every word of the Protocols - Atzmon for one. Is it any wonder that some of it rubs off? When I see a clear critique of things like 'on antisemitism' and 'not in my name' then I shall take your protestations seriously.

I have seen nothing libellous posted here. I've seen plenty posted on the Rizzo/Atzmon sink tank though.

REJ GOCH said...

Your judgement is somewhat brought into question when you say,
"Joe, who seems to be a model of politeness."
completely overlooking his last post which started with the immortal words,
"Go and boil your head Wilson,
you utterly moronic waste of space".
As for the libel, when referring to what I have written in the past Kane says,
"You'll also find that the Tsarist forgery 'The Protocols of the Elders' are in fact historically true. "
This is a clear libel which I have challenged him to attempt to substantiate. Of course, he cannot do this and therefore I require you now to delete the post and issue a retraction and apology. You have issued a further libel in the following,
"Your problem is that you hang around and keep defending those who do believe in every word of the Protocols - Atzmon for one."
You really can't go on repeating things that are manifestly untrue and expect people to sit back and take it.

joe90 kane said...

[I posted this a few days ago but it hasn't appeared as yet, so I'll give it another go - not that I'm too bothered if it doesn't get published by TGB as its just about a time-wasting non-entity anyway]

Thanks Tony.

Richard Wilson the time-wasting know-nothing non-entity claims I have libelled him -
This is a clear libel which I have challenged him to attempt to substantiate.

Like all the egos associated with with the Thick Tank Richard Wilson think's I'm refering to him, when I wasn't.

My sentence structure is as clear as daylight and was refering to no named individual in particular but was a generalised opinion about half-wits who don't know how to handle historical documentary evidence. If I am refering to anyone in that particular paragraph it could be Rizzo who has the gall to claim it is Tony Greenstein who doesn't know how to handle historical materials.

Clearly dimwit Wilson thinks it's libellous to be associated with Atzmon and the antisemitic abuse of the historical record Atzmon is infamous for. I quite agree.


As far as I can tell,
Tony Greenstein hasn't vaunted anything and is far more indulgent in tolerating empty balloons like Richard Wilson than most other bloggers I know and care about.

As far a me abusing Richard Wilson, I'm not. I am very accurately describing Richard Wilson. It isn't my fault Wilson is an unimpressive time-wasting abusive non-entity.

The abuse is on the part of non-entity Richard Wilson who uses any excuse to waste people's time and take up their attention on his utterly moronic risible non comments.

He has lied about what I have said from one comment to the next, using such lies as a pretext to have me censored or banned from making comments on TGB - clearly this is unacceptable behaviour but I have not asked Tony Greenstein to ban abusive and lying Richard Wilson.

His charge that I have libelled him is just one in a lengthy series of time-wasting abusive tactics which seems to have no end.

all the best Tony.


ps
Now Richard Wilson seems to be claiming that you have libelled him Tony for claiming he supports Atzmon - Tony, this man is an utter moron.

These are the sorts of people and supporters of the Thick Tank who are always complaining about censorship and 'jewish gatekeepers' and whose motto runs 'free mind fro a free palestine' -