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Wednesday, 24 December 2008

Xmas Crackers - They don't come any Bhatia

And now for a bit of Xmas fun. A devoted Atzmon fan, one Zarina Bhatia, decided to send to all and sundry, a eulogy to her hero. Below is my reply!

Yuletide greetings to all,

Tony Greenstein

Dear Ms Bhatia,

I have been forwarded your message below re Gilad Atzmon. I'm sure you will understand why I am replying, bearing in mind the polemical nature of your Christmas greeting.
I am one of those anti-Zionist Jews whom Atzmon describes as 'gatekeepers' or 'fifth-columnists' inside the Palestine solidarity movement. Unfortunately this is inevitable because if you are anti-Zionist then, according to Atzmon, you are a Zionist if, at the same time, you do so as a Jew!
Yes I know it sounds strange as it is normally the Zionists who argue that being Jewish and Zionist are one and the same thing. And hence anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are also the same thing. But, I’m afraid, that is what Atzmon argues. In his essay ‘
Not in my name’ he declares that:

‘by fighting Zionism in the name of their Jewish identity they approve Zionism…. To demand that Jews disapprove of Zionism in the name of their Jewish identity is to accept the Zionist philosophy. To resist Zionism as a secular Jew involves an acceptance of basic Zionist terminology, that is to say, a surrendering to Jewish racist and nationalist philosophy. To talk as a Jew is to surrender to Weizman’s Zionist philosophy.’

And in another
article he declares that:

‘since acting politically under a Jewish banner is in fact the very definition of Zionism, it is reasonable to deduce that all Jewish left activity is in practice not more than a form of left Zionism.’

It is a strange argument that says if Jewish people stand up and say they oppose Zionism, they are actually Zionists!

There is nothing particularly profound about this. This argument runs through the heart of the World Zionist Organisation’s Jerusalem Program. Atzmon’s very revulsion from the acts of the Israeli state, leads him not to question the Zionist claim to represent all Jews but to an affirmation of a key, defining principle of Zionist ideology. His only response is therefore to declare himself as an ex-Jew.
Zionism of course was the reaction of certain Jews to anti-Semitism in the 19th Century. Indeed the origins of the Zionist movement are not even Jewish. It was the child of romantic imperialism. And in a double parody, Atzmon’s anti-Semitism is a reflection of Zionism. Atzmon is a fully-signed up member of those who believe in the Jewish conspiracy theory. From the present global financial crisis of capitalism to the scandals of the British government, the Jewish hand is lurking. As he himself says:

"we must begin to take the accusation that the Jewish people are trying to control the world very seriously…. …. American Jewry makes any debate on whether the 'Protocols of the elder of Zion' are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do try to control the world, by proxy… I would suggest that perhaps we should face it once and for all: the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus who, by the way, was himself a Palestinian Jew." ‘On Anti-Semitism’ (yes he’s changed the wording a bit now, but the meaning remains the same).

You say that Atzmon ‘exposes the facts about the much publicised holocaust!’ I wasn’t aware that Atzmon was any kind of Holocaust historian. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to which facts? Could it be Atzmon’s much publicised support for Holocaust deniers and his own advocacy of such a position?

His friend, Paul Eisen, British Director of the now-defunct Deir Yassin Remembered, has repeatedly endorsed the central claim of the holocaust deniers:
‘Regarding gas, again I am not sure but the evidence for the use of homicidal gas-chambers is not good at all. The evidence against it is much, much stronger.’
Yet in an e-mail that Atzmon sent me on 23rd June 2005, Atzmon wrote:
‘how dare you classify innocent and honest people as H deniers. Can’t you see that this is a crime. Mr Eisen whom you despise his learning the H for 3 years, he is an expert. I myself working on WW2 for over ten years.’

And there is no doubting that Eisen has become an ‘expert’ holocaust denier. Atzmon continues:

‘I do not have any doubt that our notion of the H will change radically in the near future. Too many discrepancies. and as I said, the only active scholarship is in the hands of the revisionists. The funny bit is that only left Jews are defending the Zio-Anglo-American’s H narrative. Ask yourself why. I think that it is simple. You are not religious, you killed god….’

So not only does he flirt with Holocaust denial, but he throws in a bit of Christ-killing too!
In fact it is very simple. When the Holocaust was taking place the Zionists were desperate not to mention it. It was a diversion from building their State. Until 1960 the Nazi holocaust was a taboo in Israel and holocaust survivors were treated with contempt. Today of course the Holocaust is a propaganda weapon that the Zionists cynically use, whilst at the same time stealing the reparations from Germany and other countries that were intended for the upkeep of those survivors. The ‘Jewish’ State is literally a parasite on the survivors of the Holocaust.
But your own message reveals its contradictions. On the one hand you doubt the Holocaust whilst at the same time comparing it with Israeli rule today. You cannot have it both ways.

There are indeed many valid comparisons that can be made between Israeli behaviour today and the Nazi reign of terror, including the siege of Gaza, and the holocaust.

However you can either take the path of President Ahmedinajad of Iran who raised questions about whether the Holocaust had even occurred. But Ahmedinajad, the bloody ruler of Iran and the torturer of Iranian workers, did what many have done. He assumed that if Israel bases its legitimacy on the Holocaust then if it can be proved that the latter didn’t occur then, hey presto, Israel has no legitimacy! The only problem is that the Holocaust did occur and ironically, therefore, what he is unwittingly saying is that Israel is legitimate. It is a bankrupt and useless strategy.

You seem to have the ear of Gilad Atzmon and it is understandable if you are carried away in the euphoria of a concert hall. But to those of us trying to build a Boycott movement, the actions and antics of Atzmon are a hindrance not a help. As one of the movers of the Boycott motion at the 2007 and 2008 Annual Conferences of UNISON, Britain’s second largest trade union, support for Atzmon would been music to the ears of the Zionists.

But another irony, Atzmon is on record as opposing the Academic Boycott of Israel’s universities. In an interview he declared that:

‘interfering with academic freedom isn’t exactly something I can blindly advocate. Unlike some of my best enlightened friends, I am against any form of gatekeeping or book burning. But it goes further, I actually want to hear what Israelis and Zionists have to say.
Yes, that’s right. Supporters of an Academic Boycott are book-burners. One suspects the Board of Deputies of British Jews would agree with him on this. After all, when the Boycott campaign was at its height ‘deputies also gave vent to their anger – particularly at Jews who supported the move [for boycott]’ (Jewish Chronicle - 22.06.07).

You have every right, Ms Bhatia, to engage in hero worship. However I would advise you to choose your heroes more carefully next time.
In solidarity,

Tony Greenstein

>>Greetings to All!

I had the fortune of meeting Gilad Atzmon at one of his Concerts, in Birmingham and I am in total admiration of him for his genuine support and commmitment for the oppressed people of Palestine and against blockade and Ethnic Cleansing that is going on in Gaza, while the world keeps silent planning Seasons' feasting!

Gilad has some enemies no doubt, who once were my 'friends' because he exposes the facts about the much publicised holocaust! In fact my spectrum of real friends believe that Zionist rule in Israel today is of 'perpetrators' in exactly what was history once, of the Jews under Nazi Germany.

One can surf the following web links to prove this point and explore the wealth of information Gilad sends me via this Christmas message. Gilad, I shall forward your message to scores of people. Keep up your gift as an acclaimed Jazz player that you are, making a difference!

Zarina Bhatia


REJ GOCH said...

When you changed your blog title you said,"The reason for this is that the original reason for setting this up, the activities of the small group of anti-Semites around Gilad Atzmon and Mary Rizzo, has shrunk into insignificance." So much so that you feel compelled to trot out the same nonsense yet again! I love your effortless ability to make yourself look more stupid with every pronouncement.

azvsas said...

Ah my dear Goch, but I didn't say I'd ignore all the stupidity of the Atzmonites. When a particularly batty nonentity like Bhatia makes a fool of herself it is incumbent on me to highlight her folly.

REJ GOCH said...

Why do you feel compelled to respond to 'nonentities'? Perhaps it is a secret fear that the people you attack are the ones that are listened to whilst your poison remains untouched. This is the tragedy of your situation. You actually know you are wrong but can't face up to it.

Tony Greenstein said...

A good question Mr Goch. Why do I keep responding to you and other nonentities?

Probably because I don't wish to write off any human being, however stupid they appear, because I believe in the ability of people to change, to see the light on the road to Damascus.

I realise your far gone Mr Goch and have nothing to say about anything of importance but I'm not willing to give up to you.

call it the Yuletide spirit!

REJ GOCH said...

You just don't get it do you? What a pity the world is not full of people grateful for the attention you lavish on them.

Tony Greenstein said...

My dear Goch. I don't put posts up because the objects of my derision might be grateful to me!

However as I've already said, I look forward to the day when you have anything substantive to say about any issue. Until then....

joe90 kane said...

It was a well-spotted observation of yours TG,
that goch nobody acts as if he's still a teacher.

Richard Jones (rej goch) is as much an intellectual non-entity as his hero Atzmon, however, at least goch can't be accused of intellectual dis-honesty in the same way as Atzmon can, as goch has no arguments.

Indeed, he has no clue either about what the Palestinian position is on 2-states, or that of bona fide solidarity organistaions either. In much the same way as the screaming skull, Mary Rizzo, has no idea about Palestinian history.

Just to say TG
it follows that if Atzmon is using zionist definitions of what it is to be a Jew or Jewish, and he is, surely then it must also mean Atzmon is an antisemite, because to be anti-zionist means to be an antisemite.

If you only accept zioist definitions as true for Jews, then you are a racist. If you accept the definition as true for everybody, Jews and non-Jews, then it means that if you are a non-Jewish anti-zionist, then you are an antisemite.
Either way, Atzmon accepting zionist definitions as the basis of his views about Jewish people means he's a racist no matter which way he tries to turn.

Atzmon seems to think that if he keeps repeating the same formulaic phrases such as 'tribal Jew' or 'racially oriented politics' etc, that they'll come to be adopted and maybe even 'understood'.

The only 'racially-oriented politics' I come across are by racists. Atzmon's definitions of 'racially-orientated politics' are borrowed from famous zionists. As I have said before, just because the BNP have views about Britian and the British doesn't mean I have to agree with those views, or use them in order to criticise British people.

This is much the same tactic that Atzmon's fellow collaboartor's on 'Harry's Place' blog use againjst their victims, Muslim folk. They take the pronouncements of the likes of bin Laden then use them to racially abuse Muslim folks.

It's a pretty despicable but transparant tactic.

The thing is, Jewish people can't even be accused of ethnically-oriented politics as they are just as politically diverse as other communities are. Although, I notice in his interview with this IJV chap from Canada, that Atzmon regards the Jewish community (forgive this clunky label of mine, it's just for the sake of argument) as mostly zionist.

Anyway, I have yet to see Atzmon deal with the argument, how can someone who is Jewish and is anti-zionist be zionist?

He is such an intellectual coward that Atzmon refuses to honestly repeat the arguments of his critics. He vaguely refers to 'opponents' and such like, without stating clearly what it is they are criticising and why.

Anyway TG, always great to read you and and I hope you're enjoying the festive period.

all the best TG!

tony greenstein said...

It is a bit of a puzzle Joe as to why Mr Jones persists in putting up comments which never say anything other than how beastly I am to the Jazzmon.

I'm not sure that I would phrase things in the way you have, viz. that if Atzmon defines Jews as a Zionist would, and I'm not sure that there is one definition being a Jew, then that automatically makes one a Zionist.

What makes Zionism reflect anti-Semitism is its positing of being Jewish as an unchangaeble phenomenon, anti-Semitism as eternal and an inherent characteristic of the non-Jew.

Atzmon is anti-Semitic but not because of how he defines Jews (in reality he considers them and 'Jewishness' racial) but because of the specifics of what he says - the conspiracy stuff, holocaust denial nonsense etc.

You say 'If you accept the definition [of being a Jew] as true for everybody, Jews and non-Jews, then it means that if you are a non-Jewish anti-zionist, then you are an antisemite.'

No I don't agree. Firstly if you are anti-Zionist then you aren't anti-Semitic. Anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are polar opposites, contrary to what the Zionists say, but I would hang all this one definitions of being Jewish but more on how Jews are seen and their alleged racial characteristics. Atzmon/Shamir & co. believe there is a Jewish stereotype and Atzmon is hinting heavily that the crisis of capitalism has been caused by Jews, hence his interpretation of the article by John Reynolds as being one for 'spiritual dejudification'.

Yes hope you had a good Yuletide Joe.


REJ GOCH said...

Referring to me the master of logic Joe Kane comes up with "he has no clue either about what the Palestinian position is on 2-states, or that of bona fide solidarity organisations either". Now where did he dredge that up? The fact that I am not in favour of a '2 state solution' doesn't mean that I am not aware of what others might think or say. Since when have I lost the right to have opinions of my own. B As for my not discussing issues on this site, I don't feel this is an appropriate place to take part in such a discussion. I just pop in every now and again when you allow scurilous material about me to appear, just so you don't get the idea that I will get tired of opposing you or trying to get you to behave in a reasonable way. No one is ever going to be able to say I have not been very patient in this respect.

joe90 kane said...

Thanks for that TG.

I agree with what you're saying.

Unfortunatley, that was what I was trying to say as well. My words didn't match my meaning perhaps.

I was arguing the case from the perspective of zionism-Atzmon which are both the same, both racist.

Sorry to have put you to any trouble.

all the best TGB!
I woke up this morning to the news to the mass-murder of 120 Gazans and 400 injured - unspeakable!

goch wittering on about something or other.
keystone goch
10 days ago I pointed out your ignorance and based on your ignorance you call others zionists -
comment by joe90 kane
17 December 2008 20:06

Announcement - Change of Title Sunday
07 Dec 2008

And here is the comments and following, where you make a public laugh stock of yourself, which I refer to in the above comment -
14 June 2008 13:17
ENGAGE Hypocrites Support Finkelstein's Arrest & Deportation

I'm not particularly interested in the personal opinions of supporters of antisemites and supporters of champions of paedophilia.

I am interested, though, when supporters of racists attack bona fide solidarity organisations and denounce them as zionistfor the alleged crime of supporting the 'international consensus' 2-state settlement, which also happens to be the official position of Palestinian organistaions such as the PLO, Hamas etc

...just so you don't get the idea that I will get tired of opposing you or trying to get you to behave in a reasonable way. No one is ever going to be able to say I have not been very patient in this respect.
- Or very knowledgable.

I was actually wrong in my previous comment on this thread,
teacherman goch is as intellectually honest as his glorious leader atzmon - he can't honestly repeat the arguments of his opponents. It doesn't take a genius to work out why.

REJ GOCH said...

I took the trouble to trawl back through your references, Joe Kane, and of course, they bear no relation whatsoever to the words you claim I used. What a surprise! As usual your own words, used in a different context, provide a more realistic explanation....
"words didn't match my meaning perhaps"

joe90 kane said...

As usual your own words, used in a different context, provide a more realistic explanation....
- No wonder you're as hopeless at poetry as you are argument.